UKH

Well, there it is, confirmation that Boris is the new PM of the UK - for how long will it be UK though is one of the many questions that will soon arise.

Oh well, USA have Trump, we have Boris - great!

a downvote. For Boris, not for you

Boris Who?

Bugger.

youtube.com/watch?v=Vgx7abJH6uI&

Does anyone know the shortest time a PM has ever been in office?

If the government loses a vote of no confidence in October his time in office could be less than 5 months.

I'm off to freeze my head in a cryogenic chamber - come and thaw me out when this is all over. 

F@*ks sake...

Bollocks!

Signed: disappointed in Nottinghamshire 

youtube.com/watch?v=j1EtnpulrIg&

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is not yet the new PM, just the leader of the Conservatives.

It's very very unlikely, but still conceivable, that he won't be able to become PM.

Hooray!

One down already. My local MP (Anne Milton) has just resigned as a minister.

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/guildford-mp-anne-milton-quits...

Good on her! Far be it from me to tell people what to do, but I'd strongly recommend writing her an email of support on her principled stance.

For the first time in my life I have complete and utter contempt for the pm. 

I would except for the fact that, though originally a remainer in a remain constituency she swapped after the vote.

That I find hard to forgive.

Me too!

I've had contempt before and even utter contempt but never complete and utter!

People trying to free themselves from the shackles of substance abuse need support and encouragement to come clean

He's not the PM yet, just the leader of the conservatives.... if press reports are right, it could remain this way if he can't demonstrate confidence of the house

According to Nick Cohen on Twitter...

"Until now, the PM with the shortest period in office was George Canning - 119 days 12 April to 8 August 1827. If Johnson falls before 19 November, he will become what he deserves to be: the answer to a pub quiz question

Quick link to his speech, in case anyone missed it:

youtube.com/watch?v=1Cwyq3XWeHE&

According to the BBC he is to be the new PM.

True - maybe he won't be able to form a government, as in this, also Nick Cohen: 

"Historians disqualify Lord Bath, who lasted only three days from 10 February to 12 February 1746, because he couldn't form a government. We shouldn't be so prissy, and be grateful if Johnson is PM on Wednesday and gone  on Friday."

She will still get her ministers pay for a couple of years, and her pension will be based on that pay.

How did her constituency vote in the referendum, and how did the local party members vote in this run off?

It's all so very simple though, unite the party, then unite the country then deliver Brexit. Can't wait to see him have that all sorted by the end of October. 

Yep, lazy reporting. But probably correct.

If you're 100% sure, you might as well have a punt on it:

https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.125575094

(In case I'm not clear, you shouldn't be 100% sure, and probably shouldn't have a punt on it!)

Here we go again, all the normal naysayers doing the down man before he's even started the job.

Boris is right, we need more optimism, more 'can do' spirit and more confidence in our great nation. Let's stop running ourselves down and remember that this is country of Newton, Shakespeare, Darwin, Turing, Babbage, Dickens, Kipling and Churchill. We have an unrivalled history of punching above our weight and influencing global events. 

We've had enough of tehcnocrats, experts and the mangerial class it's time for someone with some zip, zing and razzamatazz to galavnise this country and lead us into a proud and noble future.

Hear, hear, he now has a clear mandate. The country needs to get behind him. 

No he doesn't and, No it doesn't.

No really, you think too much, we need less thinking and more action. 

I would compliment on your willingness to go against the by now rather dreary tide of anti-Tory sentiment, but for the logical inconsistency of your argument. Your list of British “giants” consists mostly of your reviled “technocrats, experts and the managerial class”. Why celebrate them as the best of British and then demand the plastic wrapper instead of the sandwich?

and the government of Johnson, Grayling, Leadsome, IDS, Raab and DD. If they pooled their respective talents they might have enough nouse to put together some flat pack furniture. However, I doubt it.

Are you being sarcastic?

Other than its ubiquity, do you find anything about the anti-Tory sentiment to disagree with?

Yeh!   make USA great again... err... i mean UK... 

Why must a celebration of some of Britain's finest sons again descend into negativity?

Our historic class of technocrats shared a bold and pioneering spirit unlike today's healthy safety focussed technocrats more interested in box ticking rather than taking brave explorative leaps into the realms of discovery.

Let us just rejoice in today's excellent news and start planning for the unlimited opportunities awaiting us on 1/11/2019, our very own independence day.

Sweepstake time:

Date of no confidence vote:

Date of General Election:

Date an extension of article 50 granted:

I'll go for mid Sept, mid Oct, Mid Oct

Ah well, it's not like there was a good outcome to look forward to.

Interesting times.

jk

Well that's any hope of even a meagre retirement gone.  All that's left is suicide, a la "The Lotus Eaters", by around age 63. 

October? Summer recess starts this week, if he's getting the boot it'll be tomorrow or too late.

jk

First high-profile Brexiteer to declare him to be a closet Remainer?

I think you may be missing TMM’s joke.

Either that or TMM is an idiot.

Enjoying the juxto of this thread and ‘I saw this on YouTube and I was horrified’.

jcm

Or you might be missing mine

You'd better be taking the piss.

You'll never keep this up but I am enjoying it

This is what we voted for, taking back democracy. We don't want a load of unelected Eurocrats telling us what to do. It's much better that we have 116,000 unelected tory members telling us who will lead the country. And yes, some of those member are 15 and 16 but still allowed to vote for the tory leader. And yes, the tories did block votes for the under 18 in general elections. But, consider this: A 15 year old tory supporter is the right sort of person. A 16 year old voting in the general election, probably hasn't even been to a good public school. We cant have that sort telling us what to do.

Absolutley not. Nothing could be more serious than the future of our great nation. I shall rest in easy in my bed tonight knowing that someone of Boris Johnson's calibre is now leading this country. His background and experience are second to none. He has the pedigree, the education and the experience to lead us into a more positive and optimistic future.

We must move on from the timidity of May and no longer supplicate ourselves at the foot of those in Brussels. Let us be brave and daring and consider the actions of another great leader, Wellington. He led us to a great victory in the Low countries and I now back Boris to do it again.

Classy.

It’s true, I might. It’s that kind of day.

jcm

Great to hear. 

A ‘committed’ brexiter has to deliver brexit or be seen to fail. Choosing Hunt would have risked another 3 years of stasis. 

Edit: Let’s hope that he goes against previous form, and is brave enough to outline his solution

Sounds like this should be followed by "your boys took a hell of a beating"

"Let us be brave and daring and consider the actions of another great leader, Wellington. He led us to a great victory in the Low countries and I now back Boris to do it again."

I'm not sure Boris can rely on the Prussians backing him up this time though.

And in one sentence you have displayed all that is wrong in our fine nation. After reading a towering list of 8 intellectual giants your first thoughts are instead to consider a game of association football with a minor fish trading nation. Why not celebrate our illustrious past? After reading out those names one should naturally feel your chest swell with pride and become aware of a warm glow, safe in the knowledge that God has judged us a favoured state, a blessed isle where independence and liberty remain a sacrosanct.

FTFY

Wellington was Prime Minister twice.

Please no. Please!

You are aware, I take it, that Wellington wasn't actually from this particular isle but one just off the East coast...

I was more thinking of when he comes back from Brussels with nothing, polishes the turd that is May's deal and offers it back to Parliament who will once again reject it. On the brink of crashing out with no deal there will be a vote of no confidence which he'll lose.

Hopefully he'll go on to lose the following GE as well.

It's exactly the response you'd expect from the Liberal elite, remoaners every one of them. 

of Arranmore? 

Liam Fox.

Edit - oops, I nominated Fox as "First high-profile Brexiteer to declare himself to be a closet Remainer".

My money's on Bill Cash in answer to the actual question.

Londoners, 40% of whom voted Leave, also voted for him as mayor twice.  Given the overwhelming tone and direction of the various Boris threads, UKC has all the hallmarks of an echo chamber with little diversity. 

30th October, 11.30 pm.

11th December

31st October 11.30am

Date of Second Referendum:

February 18th 2020.

Because that is exactly what it is, the past. We are no longer the lords of the sea and no longer the overlords of 25pc of the world. We are a small country, indeed a great country, but in the realms of today's global challenges, we are but a minor player and when faced by threats from Russia, the middle east, china and even the US I believe we are better as a united Europe with a common aim. 

Plus, Churchill wasnt always a nice chap...

Err, ok. West coast then. Pedant.

We'll get half of that, going by Boris' track record.

Buckingham Palace have just Tweeted:

Constitutional monarchy, one's arse; you're all just taking the piss now! #QUEXIT"

Almost 4 hours in charge and he hasn't f*cked up yet.

This is going WAY better than I expected...

Or those of the outdoors are also more welcoming to others and are blessed with clearer thinking and problem solving skills? Less of an echo chamber; more an oasis of considered thought perhaps?

Out of curiosity, what was your retirement plan and why does this particular man coming to power ruin it? Retiring abroad? I'm sure it'll still be possible. 

Was Johnson's position on Brexit a significant factor in the London mayoral elections? And what, remind us, was Johnson's position on the EU at the time of the London mayoral elections? 

I’m picking up more than a whiff (waff) of sarcasm is TMM’s comments!

Unlike the membership of the tory party that have just crowned him eh?

Londoners voted for a very pro-remain Boris Johnson. Also remember, he was a spectacular failure as Mayor of London.

Debatable, if only because the London Mayor is little more than an elected commissioner of Transport for London and has little other actual power.

Think what he will do with real power. I hope Liam Fox doesn’t tell him about his Atlantic Bridge.

Present, but unable to articulate my feelings sufficiently

Firing squad perhaps?

He wasted a metric f@#$ tonne of money as mayor.  

46 million on the stupid garden bridge.  

1.4 million on attempts at gluing pollution to the roads.  

60 million on a nice but ultimately pointless cable car. 

More than 200 million on cashless buses with conductors that don't work as advertised.  

In the immortal words of yazoo "The only way is up" and "Things may be a little hard now, but we'll find a brighter day, oh, yeah"

I once knew a palaeoarchaeologist from Nempnett Thrubwell.  Frustratingly, it just doesn't scan in a limerick.

I'll be perfectly happy to get behind Boris - did you know I'm secretly Brutus.

What we really need is for people to think BEFORE they act.

Yaz. Not Yazoo. Although given Johnsons grazp of detail, maybe that was intentional?

But has he actually said or done anything yet ?

How much money did he waste on that bridge ?

A gun is used to put down the likes of horses, to ensure that it is done quickly and painlessly.

For Johnson I would suggest an alternative - burning at the stake !

Does he weigh the same as a duck?

No. And long may that happy state of affairs continue.

"H H How do you know Heee is a witch?"

Seems a bit of an egotistical assumption to me - our tribe is better, smarter, more enlightened than half other proles.  Judging by the amount of vitriol thrown in the direction of Boris before he's even been in office, I'm not convinced that the UKC massive is more "welcoming", "clearer thinking" and "considered".  All the more disturbing that we'd collectively assume that.

Spectacular failure?  Remaining or leaving wasn't really a debate during his first term and he was still popular by the time he finished as mayor.

As someone who had to endure Boris as mayor I think people are being remarkably restrained!

"Liberal Elite" -I'm honoured

It's the one positive I take out of all of this, it's the only time in my life anyone will consider me as elite!

More likely a Wild Boar.

I can barely believe that you actually wrote that!

piss off, he cheated and lied in the grossest manner

Yep, that might be a bit patronising and complacent so I won't go there. I'd like to start another challenge: has anyone got any evidence that Boris is in fact better than everyone says he is? Is there a track record of achievement of anything (other than writing the equivalent of Viz cartoons in article form) that we can grasp?

No; didn't think so. Pan Ron is pi$$ing into the wind.

But they both learnt on the playing fields of Eton. 

He achieved a staggering amount of money spaffed.  

Oh, I forgot the water cannons.  And the £1000 stereo fitted to each water cannon.  

.

You may be looking in the wrong closet.

I might as well be, given so many seem to have retreated to their political corners.  There's very little in the way of objective analysis out there/here. 

A so-called community, coming to UKC to discuss Boris, is only going to work itself up into a vortex of loathing and hate given the demographic here is probably 80-90% left-leaning.  I'm very wary of it, and particularly of assumptions that this honorable bunch represent The Truth.

So did I.  But I didn't notice having to "endure" anything that seemed to be caused by him.

Perhaps the following link is all BS propaganda, so feel free to criticise away.  But it looks like he may have pulled off one or two things...and maybe the proles in a predominantly liberal-leaning, multi-cultural, capital felt they had good reason to re-elect a Tory Toff Etonian who apparently thinks only of himself and is a curse upon this land?

https://www.conservativehome.com/localgovernment/2010/01/100-achievements-o...

That may be true only of you consider anybody who disagrees with you « left leaning »

It's obviously a ball-park, back of envelope, figure.  But find me a discussion anywhere on UKC where a vaguely conservative or non-left viewpoint gets representation by larger numbers of people than that 80%-90% assumption would assume - and I'll award you a chocolate fish.

I got 3 likes and 15 dislikes for posting ‘Hooray!’ as a response to the OP.

Considering that my response was an attempt to wind up the remainers who make up a large majority on this forum I am feeling a little disappointed.

I think if you polled most outdoor regular climbers they would be more centre or left on average percentages than UKC. Check out UKB as an example and their Brexit poll over there (it's the most Remain I saw anywhere). Hence I think its nothing to do with the site and everything to do with climbing. On the top 40 regulars there are probably even more conservative or centre right posters than on average here. Its not true left wing views dominate on UKC unless, like you, we assume centrists are left wing.

The best minds of our generation destroyed by madness

  Or, like you, we assume left wingers are centrists?

  Whilst accepting that governments are generally more likely to be the butt of criticism than their opposition, how many endlessly repetitive,  sub-student derivative "humour" wankfest threads mocking the left's Tory/brexit hate figure of the week are running at any one time?

  Maybe the few "right wingers" on here are just more mature and less needy of group approval?

Boris Island £10m

Boris Bikes £200m

Still cheaper than Chris Grayling £3bn and rising.

I'm assuming you know a number of right wingers and are friends and/ or follow on social media?

I know a number of lawyers and whilst some of them are engaged and committed in their politics ( on both wings), there is a terrifying amount of rightwing neediness out there, as I'm sure you must be aware. 

I keep getting those names mixed up!

youtube.com/watch?v=64z16Vd69Vs&

Like this. Poor Hughie Green, serial philanderer and pathological narcissist. Back in 1977 we thought he was out of his mind now his bonkers shtick is going to be government policy. Optimism is totally inappropriate with Johnson leading our country. I don't want politicians to be optimistic I want them to be competent and sane. 

'how many endlessly repetitive,  sub-student derivative "humour" wankfest threads mocking the left's Tory/brexit hate figure of the week are running at any one time?'

I don't know - tell me. I'm not aware of any.

A pointless exercice given that not everybody would have the same binary conception of politics as yours.

In fact I would say that many of your viewpoints are typical of the left of the 1970s.

Look at the top 10 posters. I’d say about half would definitely identify as firmly right wing.

Did you consider that the reason they are constantly being mocked might be because they are incompetent and ridiculous ?

I think we've now got the prime minister that remainers deserve. Lets face it, if the ones in charge of Brexit, May, Hammond, Robbins etc hadn't cooked up such an apalling deal and hadn't had their hands tied behind their backs whilst doing so by remainers trying to make leaving as difficult as possible so they could say "ooh, leaving is just so difficult we'll have to stay instead" then we'd have left with a half decent deal by now and there wouldn't have been a leadership contest for Boris to win.

So a fine example of what goes around comes around.

Yeah, no hard Brexiteers were continually voting down the Withdrawl Agreement were they. Only the nasty Remainers.

If the right/Brexit could stop producing the constant stream of odious, self-serving wankers, we promise to do our bit. Deal?

I'm a liberal (with a little L) by nature; centrist. That probably makes me left-leaning by comparison to you.

But the reason I dislike Johnson is not because he's a Tory, but because he's a lying, power-crazed shit who will adopt whatever stance he thinks might get himself into high office. After years writing bullshit stories deriding the EU (and continuing the theme last week with the kipper), he then declared leaving the EU would be madness. Only to have another volte-face and jump on the Brexit bandwagon. Likewise his comments about how undemocratic it was for Brown to succeed from Blair without a GE, only to conveniently forget that when the chance to exploit that promotion falls to Boris. 'Sovereignty of Parliament?' oh, no, forget that; we'll just prorogue Parliament to get what we want.

That's why I despise the man. That's without even addressing his low morals when it comes to philandering relationships.

Anyway instead of wasting everyone's time with this kind of BS what do you think of Boris and his future as PM?

Do you genuinely believe this as it doesn't really stand up to rational analysis, does it? For starters May herself aside negotiations were led first by Davis then Raab, both rabid leavers.

Name one concession made to remainers in the May's deal? 

The deal was as hard or harder than anything spoken about by leavers pre-vote, if you don't think so point out where I am wrong.

Who do you think affect the deal from the remain side and how?

How the f*ck has it come to this? Embarrassed to be British. Profoundly depressing. 

Fake news dude. Or as I prefer to call it; a steaming pile of horseshit.

Hard brexiters have scuppered May’s deal (thank goodness I say) but you, instead of peddling this crap, need to go and look at the voting records. Which tories voted against the May deal? And why? 

And please elaborate on what a ‘half decent deal’ is. 

No, but thanks for demonstrating my point. So boring.

Not answering the question again. So boring.

Which question? Which bit of "no" don't you understand?

Loving your work there.

I think the phrase I'm searching for rhymes with 'Chuck Norris'...

The positive bit.

When you voted to leave the eu which politicians did you think would be cooking up the deal?

I have been soul searching for positives about Boris as PM. 

I have it! 

If there is one person succeed with Brexit, it is Boris.

He is so full of crap, I fully expect him to do nothing, whilst telling everyone he has delivered Brexit. Best of both worlds, no real change but a nation believing change has been delivered. Best outcome all around. 

Technically “Yazz & The Plastic Population”

Run with that...

The deal as it stands was already effectively settled before Raab even took over. Davis started the negotiations but May began parallel negotiations via Ollie Robbins, hence totally undermining Davis and hence producing a remainers damage limitation brexit. This was presented to the cabinet at the infamous Chequers get together as a fait accompli, that's precisely why Davis resigned

Its not so much that there are specific concessions, although in her last ditch effort to get any old deal through she promised them the kitchen sink before realising her time was up.

The real problem was her whole approach to Brexit negotiations, at every turn she capitulated to the EU, accepting their sequencing demands (against the advice of Davis) and accepting their demand that we alone take responsibility for the backstop. There was no reason why this needed to be so, after the referendum the then Irish PM, Enda Kenny engaged in bilateral talks with the UK to find technological solutions to the border issue, these talks didn't collapse, it was a political choice of Leo Varadker to abandon them and demand we solve the issue. At no point did she ever stand up to this and test their resolve just as she never made them think for a moment that she actually intended to leave with no deal. Her no deal is better than a bad deal rhetoric was a vacuous platitude to try and keep leavers onside and the EU never thought she meant it for a moment, they have said so themselves.

May, Hammond, Robbins, most of the cabinet (remainers outnumbered leavers by around 6 to 1), most of the civil service. Then there was the relentless campaigning from remainers in parliament, the media and others in prominent public positions who refused to accept the referendum result. The lying duplicitous MPs who had promised to respect the result, even stood on manifesto pledges to respect it but did everything they could to make it as difficult as possible to leave with campaigns for second referendums and in the commons ammendments and constitutional jiggery pokery in cahoots with a blatantly biased speaker.

The EU could clearly see all this and knew that even if the PM's heart had actually been in Brexit she would have had just as big a battle domestically as she would have had to have with them, hence she was fighting with one arm tied behind her back.

The idea that if we as a nation had shown a united front and strong resolve in the negotiations we would have ended up with the same deal is utterly ridiculous, as the recent documentary showed, they were expecting a tough time from us but ended up pissing themselves laughing at our lamentable effort.

So the remainers have created the situation where we couldn't leave because the deal was so crap, the PM has had to resign and the Tory membership have not unreasonably concluded that remainers and "safe pair of hands" politicians won't do the trick. Desperate times call for desperate measures, business as usual has failed and a maverick has been chosen because they've nothing more to lose.

Remainers have created perhaps the only circumstances under which Johnson could get this job, they've got the PM they deserve.

Along with almost the entire Labour party who stood on a manifesto promise to deliver Brexit without any intention of ever doing so.

The ones who wanted Brexit instead of Brino, because the deal was crap.

I haven't got time, I've already wasted too much time in my lengthy reply above and frankly, I don't think you're actually interested anyway.

In theory David Cameron though obviously I realised that realistically he wasn't going to hang around if he lost (another remainer lie).

Beyond that, how should I know who the Tory party would choose?

I don’t know if you realise that, lately, you are giving the impression that you have retreated in your inner baby.

Instead of complaining about the rest of world being a bunch of histerics communists because reality doesn’t match your beliefs, try making some wise points.

So you didn't think it would be Cameron.

I don't know. You voted for this catastrophe with apparently no idea who would carry it out or how it would be achieved. And now it looks a bit shit you're busy blaming someone else, it's always someone else's fault.

Gotcha! Hot air.

You would be more than happy for the UK to remain in the EU no matter how it happens, who makes it happen or what affect it has on the UK.

How is your position any different to pec’s?

Lets suppose we actually leave and in 5 years the PM who wants to stay out is compromised/forced into holding a 'confirmatory' referendum to see if we still want to stay out. He says he'll stay on whatever but we all know if he loses he'll resign.

Are you seriously telling me you'd vote to stay out rather than rejoin because you don't know for sure who'll actually be in charge of renegotiating our re-entry?

Don't give me that b*llocks, you'd vote to go back in like a shot and take a chance on whoever ends up in charge.

His acceptance speech must have been written on the bog this morning. It reminds me of the sort of middle manager who’s been sidemoted due to lack of technical ability into a non-critical position.

Like these muddle managers his speech was low on content, high on self invested motivation, meaningless and instantly forgotten by the people who have to actually do the job.

I am actually relishing the prospect of his encounter with reality.

Congratulations, you must feel very pleased with yourself but if you think I'm going to write an essay (which is what would be required to answer your question) when you don't really care what I think then you can forget it.

Don't be ridiculous, you've told us it's going to be much better outside the eu, so why would I vote to rejoin?

Meanwhile, back in the real world shitshow you have voted for, when you voted to leave who did you actually think was going to sort it out?

1. The Labour Party didn't't win and weren't in govt. 

2. Everyone agrees that their opposition on every front has been risible so if the goats plans collapsed under the minimal scrutiny Corbyn put them under then it shows how awful they were.

3. There is no requirement for the opposition to stand by their manifesto after it has been voted down in a GE! The manifesto s to say what you would do if you get into govt, not a binding policy document for ever more.

You are mistaken. I have asked leavers on this forum many times for positives arising from leaving the EU  as have many others. Not just aspirations; actual circumstances and new relationships with the rest of the world that will make my life better now and the lives of my children better over the next 50 years. No one has ever answered me, never mind said anything persuasive.

I’m not feeling pleased with myself at all, I realise that even if you did write an essay it wouldn’t matter much anyway as you’re not in a position to implement anything. But it would still be interesting for you to make a positive case (without lies) to support your position.

The Guardian didn’t know so how was your average person supposed to know?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/bor...

I shall treat this comment with the contempt it deserves

I've already told you, can't you read?

Rubbish, you have had many answers over the past 3 years, you just don't agree with them.

I did so many times, if you didn't read them or can't remember that's not my problem. I've got better things to do than endlessly repeat myself to people who aren't persuadable anyway.

The MPs were still elected in good faith to implement their promises

Goats?

Weasel words. No wonder Labour is haemorrhaging support to the Brexit party in its traditional heartlands.

I haven’t had any, I do remember you know. Not surprising really, can you point me at one speech by a politician that might persuade me, because nobody on this forum has ever made made a positive, specific case for any sort of Brexit, never mind a no deal one.

No you haven’t. I’ve had a quick trawl through your posts and they all follow the same pattern you’ve followed on this thread. Blaming doubters for the shortcomings in your own arguments.

The other version is that David Davis was inept and lazy so needed a hand. Regardless the deal was a lot harder than anything promised in the run up to the vote, so what was wrong with it? It left the EU, the FTA, the CU, it stopped immigration, we got all out our sovereignty back (if you can call trying to bypass parliament at every turn a return of sovereignty) from the EU so what more did you want when you voted?

What concessions, the deal, once agreed was done and there was (is) no opportunity for May to grant concessions

Even if that were true and we were left to find a technological solution to the Irish border by ourselves that would only delay it but brexiters are terrified of the backstop because they know this 'technological solution' is just made up nonsense. There was no reason to make them think we would leave with no deal because everyone wanted a deal, no deal is not a thing! When South Sudan split from Sudan there was a deal, if we end up with a no deal it will be a temporary state of affairs until we get a deal so why would anyone threaten a no deal or even entertain the idea.  What deal do you think was missed out on? If you go and buy a car you might negotiate hard and get a few quid off but no matter how charming you are the dealer will never give it to you for free. Likewise it makes no difference who you are or what you say the eu are not going to give you the benefits of the EU without some commitments in return. 

Again, what was missing from the deal? There was a deal done it was ultimately voted down by the ERG

Fighting what though? We chose to leave, the EU produced a nice sheet of A4 saying these are options for the EU has for a relationship with a third party and then the Tories went away and argued with each other for three years. Despite that a deal was done to leave the EU and the group who most wanted to leave the EU got cold feet and voted it down.

Ah the old intangibles like resolve, stiff upper lip etc. Probably my fault as I didn't believe enough. The issue was not a lack of resolve but that the whole leaver plan was predicated on the EU crumbling before the economic might of the UK, when that happened there was nothing left.

As a remainer I'm struggling to see what was wrong with the deal, it was a deal to leave the EU, exactly what you voted for. The fact that leaving the eU turns out to be a shit idea is nothing to do with who negotiates.

Ah so business area so to blame even though they never wanted this either and have been opposing it all along. 

Typical spinelessness from brexiters. You've shat the bed and now blame everyone else including the fact that you've voted in an idiot to be PM. 

How do you do that when you are the opposition?

Govts, could you not work that out or were you just taking the easy option to avoid answering?

Are you saying parties are expected to stick to their manifesto even though it's been rejected? For how long?

Its not that we don't agree it's that they are all lies. Its why the best Johnson was able to do in a recent hustings was lie about EU regulations. Yes we've heard the reasons for three years and they've all turned out to be lies:

Economic prosperity = Reduced GDP

Free trade = No deal

Sovereignty = Prorogue parliament and another PM from Eton

German car manufacturers coming to us = Wah, wah, the EU are being unfair

Ignoring all the post event blame storming above the biggest hurdles in the negotiations were those immovable red lines. Presumably they were produced by or for the ERG, but resulted in a totally undeliverable brexit.

As for having nothing left to lose, that's possibly true of the Tory membership, mostly retired, white, affluent, males. Not true for those of us who actually contribute to the economy.

Are you actually suggesting that most of the membership of the Conservative Party are "...retired, white, affluent, males..."  and have not contributed to the economy? If that is the case then you are totally ignorant.

The shite really flies for us when we see what he puts in his Kabinette

During the referendum campaign, Brexit was deliberately so iIl-defined that it could have meant anything from Norway to North Korea (or in fact the best bits from each option). 

I don’t think labour have ever voted against a flavour of Brexit which met the 6 conditions from their manifesto. 

How many people do you think he's promised to make Chancellor of the Exchequer?

You make that sound like a bad thing.  Would you prefer a damage maximisation brexit?

From the heart of the Union (well a campsite in France at least) Chapeau Monsieur! Chapeau!

Rant of the year, but completely on the nose. 👍

I've had a quick look through and I can't see anyone who's pushed back on your point that the civil service has somehow prevented Brexit. The civil service is made up of many individuals, all with their own political and personal ideas, but which they leave at the door of the office to do the work of the government of the day. They are fiercely proud of their neutrality and ability to give independent advice.

They have no power to make final decisions on how things are done. They cannot start their own negotiations. They cannot do anything that a minister doesn't want them to. 

Thousands of people are turning up to work today knowing that the things they've dedicated the last two years to could be scrapped at a moment's notice. They will smile, shrug and start to work equally diligently on the wishes of their new minister with not so much as a grumble.

So tell me - how is it their fault? 

And what evidence do you have that they are mostly remainers?

Irk - ex civil servant.

To be fair, given their immersion in facts and detail, and their focus on what is actually deliverable without embarrassing their minister, I can see how it might happen.

Hasn’t f*cked up yet??? You’ve noticed he’s appointed Dominic Cummings as political adviser and apparently chosen Priti Patel as Home Secretary?

This is going to be worse than I thought, and I thought it would be terrible.

jcm

Surprised he didn't just cut out the middle man and appoint Paul Dacre as Home Secretary, but it amounts to the same thing anyway!

So the first two items on your list  of 100 good things Boris did as Mayor are freezing local government spending and reducing the area of the congestion charge.

And those are the two best things.

Buckle up, everyone.

This assumption that Johnson is a middle of the road Tory at heart, albeit presently pandering to the anti-European obsession for personal gain, is wrong. At heart he’s thoroughly, thoroughly nasty and regressive. He just doesn’t care who shags whom, and that gets him credit as a social liberal.

jcm

It's a complete bloody nightmare - there's no other word for it. A 'damage maximisation Brexit' is looking ever more likely.

Or a complete meltdown of the Tory party. Anyone know what the numbers are who are likely to support a no confidence vote rathe than a no deal Brexit? Because a GE - especially if someone will finally kick JC off his fence - could be very interesting, and perhaps in a good way.

That’s the Guardian reporting what bookmakers think, not offering its own opinion.

It’s striking how whenever you check the most trivial fact leavers quote, it turns out not to be true.

jcm

Most card carrying member of the Tory party are white, are male, are affluent and with a reported average age of 60+, many will be retired i.e. not working. Note the use of the present tense there.

If you're already drawing a pension, the economy going tits up is less of a concern, that's the point. They don't have the same skin in the game.

It surprised me but the tories are having a real gender crisis. 

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/conservative-party-members-tory-women-gen...

Do you have new data for 60+. The latest I have is in the high 50s.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05125/SN05125.pdf

.... I agree what you say is likely by the way for the reasons discussed in the link below (another indication of the mess the party is in at grass roots level and which of course raises even more concerns about party  leadership elections).

https://www.bowgroup.org/policy/statement-average-age-and-analysis-conserva...

I'd think the chief evidence would be to do with their levels of education and competence

But will anyone kick JC off his fence? If he were to turn against Brexit I think it's highly likely he'd win a GE, but if he carries on dithering, or appearing pro-Brexit, I don't think he's got much of a chance.

The Bow Group has a number of estimates of the ages of party members, all of which suggest an average age between 65 and 75

https://www.bowgroup.org/policy/statement-average-age-and-analysis-conserva...

I already need a bucket to hand when I think about these two nasty pieces of work.

I reckon I'll need horse tranquiliser too by the end of today.

Patel as home secretary ? My god, this is way worse than I thought.

The nation doesn't have a united front, it's torn asunder. Pretending otherwise, that an essentially 50:50 result represents a clear and lasting mandate for radical ultra high risk change is in large part how we've ended up in this mess.

'The deal' reflects reality, we don't hold all the cards, benefits come with responsibilities. Your ridiculous railing against that reality would in normal times be quite funny. It isn't.

We, and that includes the tiny disconnected fraction of the electorate who've decided to roll the dice with Johnson have *everything* still to lose. That you've been convinced otherwise on your lunatic march toward an utterly pointless economic shock is chilling.

A deliberately divided nation has created opportunities for extremist and opportunists, that Johnson is to be found floating in this scum is no surprise. We've all played our part in that of course but frankly those of us disenfranchised and imperilled by the brexit process, the 48% who've simply ceased to exist as a constituency of value since 2016 have been left with no choice but to continue opposition. It needn't have been thus had the campaign been more honest, expectations managed but that wouldn't have delivered the 'win'. This mess we face now is a consequence of the race to get brexit past the point of no-return before the illusion it delivers anything to the ordinary Joe is shattered and public support is lost. You've been fed brexit not as a tool or project which delivers anything tangibly valuable but as an identity so as to further delay that realisation. The unacceptable risk in this of course is that in so doing the architects of brexit have balkanised the UK. Likely now to no end even as momentum is lost, the hump still not cleared.

jk

What part did remainers play in the refusal of the ERG and DUP to support the WA? If that collection of leavers had voted with the government, we'd be out by now. 

I wouldn't.

I wouldn't jeopardise the stability and security of our nation or another's for it. I wouldn't risk civil war for it. I wouldn't jeopardise the health and safety of our population for it. I wouldn't jeopardise our economy, industry and other people's livelihoods for it. I wouldn't jeopardise our fu*king food supply for it.

Apart from that though you're right, our positions are essentially indistinguishable.

jk

That's peace in the middle east sorted then. FFS!

They don't think they have the same skin in the game.  But actually if the economy really goes tits up they will discover the pension system and the NHS rely on a functional economy.  

There's a real risk when he's eventually pressed to turn Labour against brexit it'll be too little too late to rally strong (and frankly undeserved) remainer support but enough to cleave the remain vote clean in half between labour and any emergent remain alliance allowing FPTP to do its thing and deliver a Con/Farage majority even in strong remain seats.

An election is a poor, frankly dangerous way to definitively resolve this issue, the distorted result will always be ambiguous.

jk

Yes, to all that. Deeply depressing ... and worrying.

They created it, and included conditions they knew full well the ERG and DUP couldn’t sign up to.

Untrue.

Mays deal satisfied everything required to leave the EU. What conditions were unacceptable to the ERG / DUP that they could not have predicted?

And as a part b, what modifications would you suggest that would have been acceptable?

The requirement that we needed their consent to leave the agreement.  The different treatment of NI to the rest of the U.K.

Scrap the backstop.

Surely you’ve heard this before?  It’s not like leaver Tories and DUP were quiet about their complaints.  They repeatedly told May, and the press reported it.

eg - https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/04/jun... almost 2 years ago now.

He also banned drinking on the tube, which nobody wanted.  Including TFL.

EDIT: He also cancelled thew annual R!se against racism festival which took place every year in Finsbury park.  I was possibly a bit too anti-racist for BoJo's liking.

Don't @ me about the cost of putting it on, he squandered many times more than that on his vanity projects...

So the whole lot of us were beholden to 2 small groups of extremists? Makes any complaints about lack of democracy in the EU seem like a bit of a childish whine.....and I note we already treat NI differently to the rest of the UK; why not add some trading arrangements to the current list (same sex marriage, abortion etc). Before heading down the road of the Tories getting into bed with the political wing of a terrorost organisation in order to cling on to power.

Backstop - a necessity in order to have all the other leavy bits and separate the UK from the EU. I note the ERG / DUP / any other leaver has not come up with a better idea.......

Heard it all before, and heard about all the things they don't like, but not what they would like, not a single better idea *. So to part b, what would you suggest as an alternative?

* Edit - not a single alternative idea. and yes, i read the link in your edit - doesnt change much.....

Why should the deal be everything the ERG want to the exclusion of everyone else?

What in particular were their objections?

We could have left with no deal and created a hard border in Northern Ireland. It seems like dividing border communities, trashing the Good Friday Agreement and probably re-igniting the Troubles is a tough price to pay, but being stuck in a customs union would prevent the Tory hard right from selling out the NHS to the Americans and turning the UK into a tax haven so it's clearly a price worth paying.

Indeed. What could possibly go wrong?

We don’t treat NI differently on a U.K. level, just at a local level - you know like we do with Scotland, and Wales, and Bristol.  Getting duly elected MPs to agree is the basis of UK democracy.  The complaints about the EU are much greater and if you are actually interested in that read the other thread.  I doubt you are, you’re just blowing hot air.

Not at all a necessity.

So why claim it’s a lie?

Why should the deal be what May wants ignoring everyone else?

Have done (many more than one thread.......). Just asking for answers.....

So go one then, an alternative......

What's a lie? I was answering your assertion that "they" (remainers) put things in that were unacceptable to the ERG / DUP. Why should they be pandered to and not be expected to sign up to a deal that satisfies all the requirements it was supposed to achieve.? There is no reason other than bloody mindedness that prevented the ERG from achieving their aim of getting the UK out of the EU. Unless their main aim was to gain further power and influence........hmmm.........

I agree the electoral situation is complex but in the end I think its most likely, if a brexit deal can't be done, that the Brexit party and the new further right Conservatives cancel each other out in any imminent General Election and will really struggle to provide a majority government (unless the conservatives implode... unlikely under the heat of an election as the Brexit party has no established base and loads of skeletons in closets). Even with local deals with brexiters not to stand against each other they rely on English Labour, Liberals, and Greens splitting the centrist/leftist/remainer votes relatively equally... this seems very unlikely to me given the variety of constituency demographics, alongside the Scottish and Welsh seats.

It isn't what May wanted. It's what's politically achievable within the constraints she and the EU imposed, the ugly collision of fantasy and reality. Those who peddled the fantasy cannot of course be seen to accept that. Those who bought it, who built an identity upon it are predictably still too embarrassed to. So here we are: fu*ked.

jk

Well she would say it was an attempt at a compromise, I'd obviously disagree but certainly the ERG represent the militant wing of Brexit so they should not be the ones calling the shots

You’ll find them in the other thread.

There’s no need for alternatives to things that aren’t necessary.

You said “untrue”, if you didn’t mean “that’s a lie” what did you mean?

There are bloody obvious reasons, stated above by me, stated by them repeatedly over the last few years.

It’s quite obviously not achieveable.

For a clever bloke you have such a skewered view of the Labour party situation.

Most labour party members are against Brexit but there's a sizeable and vocal minority who aren't. Corbyn isn't going to 'turn' anyone, including his own MPs who are mostly against and will vote how they want. Corbyn's position is essentially irrelevant.

I've got to say, it's remainers  who will mess it up by splitting the vote where only Labour can beat Brexit party/ Boris's populist Tory part.

I hope you're right and you very well could be. I just fear on balance a right-wing/pro-brexit pact will given the extremist nature of the Conservative membership/associations be easier to pull together and more effective than the alternative remain coalition. Especially so if that alternative is left scrapping for votes with the remains of a Labour party notionally on the same turf but that will not under any circumstances do tactical deals for fear of losing the strategic advantage FPTP and decades of gerymandering have afforded.

jk

Do you actually have any proof of that, or is it simply a way of avoiding any responsibility on the part of leavers? The Brexit Secretaries have all been ardent leavers, the Foreign Secretary at the time of the negotiations was the leader of the Leave campaign, and yet the failure of the Government to achieve a majority for its own WA is somehow the fault of remainers? Are you really serious?  

The foreign secretary and the brexit secretaries you’re talking about resigned over the deal because they didn’t agree with what May was doing!

You guys really are obsessed with blame you know - our MPs, all of them, are responsible for where we are now.

It, the withdrawal agreement and political declaration, the compromise forged between May's red lines and the EU's: that is achieved. That it turns out 'brexit' exposed to the unavoidable harsh light of reality is a bit shit, that it doesn't do what the liars and dreamers hoped and claimed, that ultimately brexiteers killed brexit... Well that particular irony is just delicious.

jk

Really? And here you are, for want of a better word, 'blaming' not just remainers but insufficiently 'pure' leavers for the deadlock in parliament.

They resigned eventually. The backstop was agreed by both sides in December 2017. It took Davies and Johnson another 7 months to resign. I wonder what they were doing in the meantime? 

And yet you seem very keen to blame everyone but the leavers! Everything we have in front of now is a direct result of the actions of leavers - they won the referendum, and all else has flowed from there. I applaud your Johnson-esque enthusiasm for evading responsibility, but please don't expect everyone to fall for those tactics. 

I'd just like to ask you one question; why do you think it has been so hard to come up with a deal that can get through parliament? A lot of hard work went into it, a lot of knowledgeable people worked on it (I don't include brexit Ministers in thier number though), and the EU has acted with absolute clarity since day 1.

Untrue refers simply to something that isn't true - as in it isn't true that remainers put together the withdrawal agreement and included things that they knew weren't acceptable to the ERG and DUP. The WA was in fact, negotiated by a mix of remainers / leavers. So if when you said that remainers negotiated the deal and included things they knew to be unacceptable to the ERG / DUP you were simply mistaken. Your statement is untrue.

A lie is something that is known not to be true at the time it is said / written. If  at the time of writing, you knew that the WA wasn't only put together by remainers, then its a lie.

Hope thats reasonably clear.

They are only obvious to those who have an agenda beyond simply leaving the EU. Their ideology seems to trump everything else, and they seem to be wilfully blind to the reasons why we need the Belfast Accord to hold.

Nah, I’m answering an assertion that just two rather small groups are to blame for everything.

I'm sorry, I have no idea what that means.  If you can't get an abortion because it's against the law is that a local or a UK level infringement of your rights?  And why is that the Democratic Unionist Party is so keen on Ulster being so unlike the rest of the UK?   

- you know like we do with Scotland, and Wales, and Bristol.  

I'm pretty sure gay marriage is legal in Bristol.

Yes, it’s a pointless quibble, I get it.

They are obvious to anyone who’s paid any attention to the news for the past couple of years.

If you had said that remainers bear *some* responsibility for where we are, i would have agreed with you. But you seem to be saying that Boris is all the fault of the remainers.  And that brexiters - David Davis at Dexue, Boris Johnson at the Foreign Office, Gove etc - were all haplessly outmaneuvered. There were plenty of brexiters in big cabinet and ministerial jobs to influence the direction of travel they just failed. If Davis couldn't even persuade his own boss to follow his advice, how are we expected to believe that he could have sold a better deal to the EU? 

Don't get me wrong, I think there were massive mistakes made by the government. Principally, failing to get a consensus on what kind of brexit we want and what trade-offs we will make in the negotiations, ideally before triggering A50. I just don't think these were partisan mistakes - they were competence mistakes. 

edited for clarity

I imagine (since this is what was reported at the time) they were trying to change it.  They failed.

I hold all MPs responsible, not one group.

Boris Karloff?? I didn't know he was still around. Good move, anyway

My argument relies on Boris being unable to negotiate a deal and trying to force a no deal brexit in October, with a vote of no confidence as a result, but as I said, they can deal away in constituencies and Brexit coalitions but it won't help unless Corbyn's stupidity exceeds all expectations, as the numbers simply don't add up... I think Corbyn's situation will improve significantly as Labour MPs are all but a few outliers completely against a no deal brexit, as are the vast majority of Labour voters. Labour can unite again with the conscientious rebel MPs like Caroline Flint and the hard line union leaders like McClusky and the minority amongst their voters who were seeking a brexit with a deal (to protect the working population from exploitation). My guesstimate is around a quarter of the English population actively want no deal and hardly any remain or brexit deal based tory swing voters will stick with them out of loyally in an election where voting tory is said to acheive that. Corbyn may even be gone if the Liberals do very well (and the SNP as expected) as any coalition government will likely make it a requirement. 

This morning I've listened to a succession of tory MPs and right wing pundits and his ex London mayoral administrators, who are backing Boris and none of it (the force of enthusiasm, greater pragmatism than the rhetoric indicates, etc.) actually adds up to unicorns....  early indications are just the opposite with Priti Patel in as Home Secretary and the reluctance to give Hunt a big cabinet post. When it's a matter of an unrespectable force meeting an immovable EU object the only tory solution for a brexit deal is a variant on May's deal. Even if he does this the pressure will be massively more on Labour rebels not to back what looks like a reactionary government. Hunt had a plan B and reputation as a moderate and could have dealed or delayed but not Boris. He's wrapped up in a dishonest trap like his bogus kipper.

Surely you can't be holding those MPs who did actually support the WA responsible? 

No agreement is achieved if one party refuses to sign, obviously.

It means that local areas get some say over the laws that apply locally.  Some to a lesser extent (Bristol), some greater(Scotland). None are treated as separate internationally.

Why not?

Not a vast majority. There's a small minority of members who would be happy with no deal and a larger minority of voters. If Brexit party stood only in Labour held seats they could win some. They'd get most of the existing non Labour vote and a chunk of the existing Labour vote. Close.

I don't accept that a regional assembly, let alone a local authority, should have the power to enact essentially a bye-law that is in conflict with ECHR.

Actually, NI doesn't seem capable of regional self-governance at the moment and is being governed from London but, as I recall, the courts found in the absence of a functioning Stormont assembly that they didn't have the legal competence to change the law on abortion, even though they agreed that NI women were having their human rights infringed. 

You've lost me completely. You are saying that those MPs who agreed with the WA and voted accordingly have an equal share in the responsibility for the mess with which we are now faced as those who voted against the WA? This despite the fact that those who voted to leave wanted to respect the outcome of the referendum and enable the UK to leave the EU? 

So in effect, it doesn't matter who voted for what? 

Not equally, May has far more responsibility, being PM, than any back bencher.

Your “facts” include false premises.

I don't mind dislikes at all, but I am curious in this case. I've described the situation how it is, do people not like that?

Or is it my last comment, are people actually expecting Lib dems or greens to win seat where they currently have no real presence?

Another truth you might not like......Boris has Dominic Cummings on board. Much as I dislike the bloke, he will forensically study the very varied constituencies we have. Where too many remainers are relying on outdated assumptions, he'll have an up to date plan. 

Polling analysis show Labour voters voting brexit outside of London were overestimated: hardly any constituencies will have had a majority of recent Labour voters voting leave and most of those who did vote leave would have wanted a deal to protect workers rights.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/is-labours-brexit-dilemma-being-misunderstood/

For every northern seat where a Brexit coalition might now defeat a Labour incumbant, there are more seats where the opposite applies to Tory incumbants losing to Labour or Lib Dems.

The point is you don't need a majority of Labour voters to switch to lose those seats, just a sizeable minority. 

Close, I think. I I said before Labour MPs are voting however they want on this issue, so I think it will come down to how different candidates position themselves rather than Corbyn's position. 

Scotland isn't a 'local area' it is a country. 

so what do we know so far: 

Dominic Cummings - Chief of Staff

Priti Patel - Home office ? 

Liam Fox - out

Chris Grayling - out (who said Boris would never achieve anything worth having...)

Penny Mordant - out 

Greg Clarke - out

Would that be a chocolate starfish?

The outs outweigh the ins so far. If only Boris had kept to this mantra before....

It's got the feel of a proper ideological purge, this one! The list of those gone so far seems to be:

Sacked - Greg Clark, Penny Mordaunt, Damian Hinds, Liam Fox, James Brokenshire, Karen Bradley, Caroline Nokes

Quit - David Lidington, Philip Hammond, David Gauke, Rory Stewart, Chris Grayling

Plus Alan Duncan and Anne Milton went earlier in the week but they were more junior ministers, I think.

Think the announcements of incoming ministers are going to start soon. Javid as chancellor is the only one I've seen but not sure it's confirmed.

ETA - Mundell sacked as Scottish Sec

ETA2 - Hunt out too! In retrospect it might have been easier to list members of the cabinet who were still in post...

Patel as Home Sec

Javid as chancellor

Raab as foreign sec

Good to see a cabinet so full of competence and gravitas...

P.S. missed Clare Perry off my list of cabinet quitters before.

I don't do dislikes so not me. 

I find the sense of entitlement in it alarming, and exasperating. We owe Labour nothing, if you want our votes and trust back they're going to be very hard won. 

Perhaps it's time Corbyn did too then. 

Jk

Not for me. Never again am I having my vote for a good, principled anti brexit Labour MP willfully mis-portrayed as a vote for a pro brexit party. Shame but there we are, this is the choice Corbyn faces, nothing to no one or stand for something, lead one way or the other.

Jk

This is starting to feel like a coup.

Yes, and now there's a strong rumour that Jacob Rees-Mogg will become leader of the Commons. The extreme-right noose tightens.

Should be some decent battles between him and the Speaker.....

They'll probably remove the requirement for junior ministers and pps's next, and replace them with a system of fagging......

Don't. I went to one of those establishments so I'm well qualified to share your horror.

And now (it gets sicker by the minute) ... Raab is 'Foreign Secretary' - this man who didn't even understand the English Channel a few months ago. I hope someone has at least bought him a decent atlas by now. 

It is getting somewhst beyond a joke.

mind you, i've had some light relief today watching the Muller Congressional appearance today (on holiday, and too hot to even fester by the pool), which has some very interesting moments......

I am way more scared of Patel as Home Sec.

F*cking Liz Truss get’s Liam Fox’s job.

Given he spent six years in the Foreign office, partly based in the Hague, a period working in Palestine and Brussels , had a Jewish Czech father and has a Brazilian wife one might think he probably doesn't require an atlas, just as he understood where the Channel is.

So here we have it, it’s not a reshuffle, it’s a new government, made up of hardliners and extremists. And we didn’t have any say.

are we reaching the state where, as in Pakistan, people would actually look forward to a military government to oust these particular politicians and selfservatives?

Great, isn’t it?

It wasn't that he didn't know where it was, more tht he didn't know it was a vital trade route.

If you don't believe it, here it is in his own words: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46142188

How anybody thinks this man is suitable for high office is beyond me.  The same applies to the majority of people announced so far. The only position that looks vaguely suitable at the moment is Javid but lets see what he does with the magic money tree

  But he  didn't say that, did he? It's the usual distortion of the facts.

  It wasn't a brilliant comment but is that really what we should focus on instead of a successful academic, legal and diplomatic career before entering politics?

  Anyway I don't want to interrupt your group therapy session. I've got to get measured for my SS uniform.

'It's got the feel of a proper ideological purge, this one!'

How terrible to lose a group of ministers who have achieved so much.

What he actually said was that he "had not quite understood the full extent" of the Dover-Calais link  (added emphasis). That's not the same as "didn't know it was a vital trade route".

And he really only used that wording to try to emphasize how important it actually was.  Emphasizing something by saying (in a slightly self-deprecating way) that one has just been learning it oneself is a normal way of speaking.

It is strange, people complain about politicians being all scripted and spin-doctored and only talking in sound-bites -- but if, when speaking live and off-the-cuff, they produce any wording that is sub-optimal, they're granted no leeway or charity at all. 

How many of us, if speaking live and being recorded for a major fraction of our professional lives, would never word something badly? 

Well I do speak live and off-the-cuff quite a lot (lecturing to undergrads about 100 times a year) and I know that I quite definitely make worse screw-ups than that regularly.

Not ever insofar as I recall after vigorously campaigning for something that would have a huge effect on the thing I was admitting to be just learning about now. And I say stupid shit a lot.

Do you talk for weeks about something and *then* get to know about it? Seems lax for an academic.

  Why are you ignoring what Coel said? For the same reason people ignore what Raab said?

I'm partial to a bit of Dunt: 

https://politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/07/24/johnson-s-time-as-prime-minister-st...

Which bit am I ignoring? Seeing as I'm not doing any ignoring on purpose you'll have to point it out to me.

You must be over the moon. Lying populist, Brexiteers, extreme free-marketeers, NHS privatisers, climate change deniers. Full House for you. Hope it goes well for you or you'll look a right idiot... 

I didn't say that he didn't understand where the English Channel is, but that he had a very poor grasp of its geography.

"The boiler-plate libel: that critics of Brexit are against their own country. They are a fifth column, working against the interests of the nation. "

Not one the remainers would ever use then.

Wasn't that a quite extraordinarily stupid thing for a Government minister to say?

Quite. Particularly one whose lifetime ambition is to destroy a trading relationship. A miniscule amount of knowledge of the subject, or just once going to Calais would have been sufficient for him to know its importance. 

   It doesn't demonstrate that either. As Coel said, it was likely just a self deprecating aside. It's not clear even clear at what stage he came to understood the point. It could have been years previously. And it's not so much about geography as about the importance of RORO routes.

What a bunch of bastards the cabinet is packed with. 

What you say makes me wonder whether you actually saw the clip of his interview when he said it. He came across as a young child who'd looked at an atlas for the very first time. It was at once excruciatingly embarrassing and very worrying. And shouldn't he know the basic facts/scale/importance of different RORO routes?

  No, the only small pleasure I get is watching the UKC coven go into meltdown. But I understand that, being unable to see beyond your brainless caricatures, you might think that.

This^, a thousand times this^

When Boris retreated to lick his wounds after losing the referendum, i.e. gambling against Cameron and inadvertently coming out on the winning side and faced with the repercussions of promising the nation £350 million a week for the NHS, I predicted that he'd let someone else step up to the PM job to sup from the poisoned chalice that is Brexit only to pick up the baton once the hard work has been done.

God, I hate being right.

Why do I get the feeling that some of the people saying that they are hating the current situation are actually quite enjoying it... 

No, he came across as someone trying to explain a basic point to an audience without sounding overly patronising.

This too!

Have a like despite how profoundly depressing it is that you're so on the ball

Oh, so if you're explaining how an aeroplane flies (to an audience you wrongly assume to be dim), to avoid sounding patronising you say 'I didn't quite realise how important the wings are'?

More or less all of it.

He was emphasing that he wanted frictionless trade, and therefore a bespoke trade agreement (not an off-the-shelf deal).  He was emphasizing the just-in-time nature of much economic activity.  He suggested that the "average consumer" might not be fully aware of how dependent we are on a few links such as Dover-Calais.    To emphasize all of this and to avoid the last bit sounding patronising, he suggested that he himself "had not quite understood the full extent" of it.  

That is just a normal way of speaking, and does not suggest  he had no previous knowledge of it akin to "a young child who'd looked at an atlas for the very first time". 

Ha, fair point. I'm just a bit surprised at the scale of the changes considering his campaign pledge to unite the party. And with the imminent need to prepare for a no deal Brexit I'd have thought there would be some value to a bit of consistency for departments. 

It looks like Johnson is trying to prove to the entire country that "Brexit is great as long as we have true believers in charge" does not work ... -> testing Brexit to destruction.

Masochistic isn't it.

  Withuut checking. Where does Dover rank in terms of UK cargo ports and what percentage of  EU goods

trade does it account for?

to those who say that "fake news" doesn't fool anyone and we can overlook lies

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-49102074

I thought it was only Tories that indulged in such deviant practices...

I'm deeply torn. On the one hand, as a politics nerd I'm finding the whole thing deeply fascinating. Some of the constitutional issues have been really interesting to watch play out and it's kind of cool observing in real time something that students will be studying for years to come in undergrad politics courses. On the other hand it's awful and I'm concerned about the future of the UK and how on earth we'll ever be able to overcome the divisions the referendum has exposed and exacerbated. On balance I'd quite like to go back to people not hating each other, to the Tories being bastards but fundamentally not mental and Labour being the good guys instead of a bunch of ideologically driven unelectables with an anti-semitism problem.

They may have a point though with all this chitter chatter about Fascism ...

Isn't one of the keystones of a fascist state an all powerful police force? 20,000 new coppers starting on Monday.

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1154005372753129474?s=09

I imagine that it comes second or third below Felixstowe, which is obviously by far the most important.