UKH

Perhaps I'm paranoid but I am always worried about the v thread melting with rope creep or slippage.

I'd prefer to put a maillon in and ab off that.

Is this acceptable?

On one hand I won't worry about creep and it will be there others climbers to use.

On the other hand it is leaving more rubbish in the mountains and might get in the way of other climbers, though not like a maillon on a bolt say.

Any optons?

You're worried about the ice melting?  In which case how would a maillon (presumably on the cord that's through the v-thread?) help to prevent that?

It will get expensive if you are climbing multipitch ice every day! Seems a shame to leave more stuff in the mountains. Are there any known examples of this happening anywhere? It always a bit dodgy abbing of other people's threads so not sure that is a good reason to do it? 

No, the cord melting.

I guess that is why I am asking. If I'm being paranoid then that's an answer! But not all abbs are v threads, so perhaps not as expensive.

I've only climbed ice out in Canada and only saw mallions on tat round trees etc. that I remember. I just abbed off the chord, but it's an interesting question! 

Ah - ok - I see why you might be thinking of a maillon then.  You presumably have the same worry whatever the type of anchor?

Maybe an option that'd give more peace of mind but only using more cord would be to make a second v-thread and equalise the two threaded cords, threading the rope through both of them?

Or use thicker cord?

Or use a dry v-thread (i.e. thread the rope directly through the v-thread then there's no cord involved at all.)

Good ideas. I might just try one of those out.

Most things I ab off on rock are trees, bolts, rocks etc. It's really only nylon to nylon that freaks me out! Maybe I shouldn't have sawn through rope with a piece of cord to see how easy it was.

youtube.com/watch?v=OIx4bRU5iQw&

 And he's old and just using him arms. Add in body weight and it gets scary.

You are afraid of melting the cord, when you pull the cord? If it's static (rappeling) it's not an issue. 

But how about something simple; thread the rope through the V-thread. Nothing needs to be left behind for that. (well unless the rope freezes in the hole...)

Ha ha ha!  There are some things that are better not to know.

There's nothing to stop you using tape in a v-thread either, if that's less alarming.  You've just got to make the extra bit of effort to tie a proper tape knot, rather than the overhand for cord.

Love the video.  Moral of the story - don't buy your tat from Walmart.

I can't ever imagine it happening and I'm not sure what kind of abbing you would be doing to get a sawing action like the one linked in the vid?

It's just if you have different diameter ropes, a long, jolting ab.....

But I've decided I'm just being over cautious.

How do you think there is going to be any sawing action whilst you are abbing off tat? Both ropes will be through your plate and are effectively held static relative to the tat until you start to pull your ropes through. I've abbed off tat direct dozens of time as many climbers will have and even pulling the full length of a rope through when retrieving it has never melted the tat I've abbed off *.

The tat in the video isn't climbing tat, its a totally different construction but even if that doesn't make any difference you could never generate a sawing action like that whilst abseiling.

* just to clarify, although the tat has never melted this doesn't mean it won't have been weakened by pulling the ropes through, hence you should never abseil directly off in situ tat that other people have used.

I'm persuaded. Thanks.

You should also consider the naked A or V thread suggestions though, if you have ropes of a suitable diameter and can find dry ice. At first I wasn't so convinced but I've been doing them all season, with the exception of one on a very wet pitch in Cogne, and am now a complete convert.

No litter, cost nothing, don't need to remember extra cord, ropes pull much smoother and easier than with cord...

As Lee says, back up with a screw and send your fattest mate first.

You had a maillon available but abbed off the cord?

It's harder to find nowadays, but a partner a long time ago used to carry 3-4 inch lengths of tubular tape, sealed but open at the ends, which he would slide onto any  tat he left behind as a 'wearing strip' and also an indicator of how much the tat  subsequently faded in the sun.  It rather depended on other users being smart enough to work out what it was for, but it always struck me as a very good idea.  I  never really got round to making some myself.  Perhaps I should

I often do that on pre-installed ab points (eg trees). If there's multiple strands of cord around a tree I think it's better to thread the whole lot than use a preexisting maillon that typically will only be connected to one strand. Obviously I back stuff up if in doubt. I think maillons are pointless on a lot of static abseils, except at busy spots where maybe a semi-permanent cord is better preserved. I think they make negligible difference to friction when it comes to pulling the ropes down. Plus if there's any sign of rust or abrasion on the maillon then I'd definitely just thread the cords. 

Personally I often don't even use cord around trees when abseiling in winter. Providing there's enough snow, the snow usually packs down to act as a barrier between the tree and ropes and to reduce the friction. I only use cord if I'm worried there will be higher than normal friction (large tree girth, course bark, awkward line of pull etc). If I was abseiling from hundred year old oak trees then I'd make the effort to protect the tree but typically it's nearly always pine trees (in Norway). Considering the rate that pine trees grow verses the number of ascents that routes get (typically very few once away from Rjukan) there's going to be negligible damage to the tree. There's probably more damage done in the form of general erosion below an ab point when using it repeatedly anyway. Typically I'm abseiling down through pine forest and picking random trees on route.

Another option would be to double the amount of cord/tape that the rope would have to melt through. Needn't mean leaving two full length thin slings. Could tie two separate joining knots, eg water knots, a few inches apart and put abseil rope on the double bit between the knots (tie the first part knots in one end then follow back using other end). Possibly an advantage to have double parts of slightly different lengths so if one melted through an undamaged bit would then take the weight.

However, as many say, its unnecessary in the first place!

Personally, I think 5mm to 7mm cord should be fine and it's not going to melt if you're doing a retrievable abseil off it. But, as others have said, backing it up for the first person sounds sensible. You don't have to take our word for it - here's a video from Glenmore Lodge, complete with debate about whether the tat might melt and a reply from Glenmore Lodge instructors in the comments:  youtube.com/watch?v=xddVyQUyJlE& (note: they recommend 6mm or 7mm tat)

I'd be cautious about threading the rope directly, as I imagine it's very likely to get stuck. I'd also be cautious about maillons; though they are often used safely, I've heard that there have been some accidents. These were due to the gate not being sufficiently screwed closed, which dramatically weakens their strength (just like an open-gate strength on a carabiner is weaker, but even more so).

It's certainly a worthwhile discussion.

As the general tone of the thread has indicated, you're probably being a bit paranoid. However, the whilst the risk is very low, it's not inconceivable.

I've certainly considered the question of  whether abseil ropes running over a double strand rather than a single strand of thin cord would improve matters (as just discussed by "older"). I'm also not sure if it helps, but it can be easily accomplished (if the single strand is long enough) just by tying a bowline on the bight in the cord.

I've certainly abseiled off 5mm cord but for planned abseils there is no denying that 6/7mm is probably a much better option with higher safety margins.

I've gone for carrying high-strength 6mm stainless steel rings instead of maillons for fixed or semi-fixed abseils. They have a larger area so it's far easier to back up the abseil with new cord and you avoid the situation that Big Lee mentioned where only some cord is actually through the maillon.

The option detailed by nniff that his partner used is a great idea. A large piece of metalwork is still better for fixed stations but it'd be a significant improvement over a single strand that's slowly suffering abrasion.

I've heard off one instance when this happened but the guy was cleaning a meandering route on absail so swinging about and moving up and down. Ive abbed off the cord countless times and never had an issue it really shouldnt rub on a straight forward ab.

I may be becoming obsessed with minutiae.   

However we are probably too pessimistic about the value of 2 strands of different length on one sling. Bodyweight is taken by one strand first which alone will melt through after X amount of any sawing action, then the second strand will take X sawing action before breaking: ie overall twice as long before catastrophe. As Tesco would say: almost 2 for the price of one.  Less, if any, advantage if bodyweight on both strands together and melting simultaneous.

Not sure about the sheath of tubular tape method. It probably only provides protection until a nick is burnt through it, after which most melting action is back on the sling. A glued or sewn leather tube sheath should work well. (I used to have a shop-bought, spliced, hawser-laid belay sling with 2 of these, presumably made to prevent cutting on sharp edged spikes.) This or your steel ring might be best.

Incidentally I'm struggling with how to tie a full weight ab sling with a bowline on the bight through the hole, though that's just me.