UKH

So I’ve got a Deuter guide 45+ (about a decade old), but when I go winter snow/mixed climbing every time I try to look up on a route the back of my helmet hits the rucksacks X frame and it’s getting annoying now. 
(I can’t seem to remove these metal bars without damaging it so gonna keep just for hill walking).

Please recommend me a rucksack 40l ish with ice axe attachment points without the above design fault if you have also come across this issue?

ta

In reply to TomFox:

I use this, cragging, Alps, Scotland 

Very light, very tough, sensible price

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/mountaineering-backpack-22-litres-sprint-22-g...

If you need something bigger.

ive never tried this bag

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/mountaineering-backpack-33-litres-sprint-33-b...

In reply to TomFox:

Alpha FL packs on the outlet at the moment. I prefer the 30 to keep it small while climbing but most people probably want the capacity of the 40. Great packs. 

https://outlet.arcteryx.com/gb/en/shop/alpha-fl-40-backpack

In reply to midgen:

The material for that does not look very durable. It might be lighter, but I would prefer thicker, more durable material.

I am possibly alone in the following: Yet where do you fit, first aid kit (a very necessary item for winter climbing), bivouac bag, spare gloves and extra layers of clothing, all the climbing protection, both rock and Ice-screws +/- rope, plus sufficient water for the day, so that you're not dehydrated by the end?

I tend to have my helmet inside the bag as well, although lots have it on the outside. So I tend to have a bigger bag.

In reply to veteye:

There's a bit of a trend for smaller bags with loads of stuff on the outside. Maybe it works for some people in some situations but I'd rather have everything inside a bag that's designed for that kind of load. More often than not it's possible to ditch the rucksack anyway so its size and weight become irrelevant.

In reply to TomFox:

Well there're two good lightweight options at both ends of the price range! If you're looking for something more traditional or hardwearing as veteye talks about, then Aguille Alpine are worth a look - https://www.aiguillealpine.co.uk/products/rucksacks-bags/climbing-alpineruc.... I bought my ex a geant and it was a great bag, I'd have been happy taking that winter climbing however they do some more modern slim designs with the same hardwearing material. 

I used a blue ice warthog (the old version) for a while and it was fine but went back to my 30 year old berghaus bag as it's a bit smaller and better designed. 

Most winter climbing sacks wont have a frame so you wont have the issue you do with your Deuter. There is definitely a trend towards more minimalist bags which are basically a dry bag with straps. Walking bags with curved backs and integrated frames aren't popular for climbing because they're still big and bulky when they're empty. But for me there's a compromise, I want at least some back padding and some straps on the side to cinch it down, along with wrapping the waist strap around the back so that once it's empty it sits flat and small. I'm sure you do this already, but tucking your lid into the top of your bag makes looking up with a helmet a lot easier. 

In reply to John Kelly:

Classic 'recommend what you have whether it's suitable or not' post!   

I've no doubt these are decent bags, I just find it funny that you'd suggest something half the size requested, then recommend something 3/4 of the size that you haven't used because it's like the one you have! 

In reply to TomFox:

I’ve found that roll top closure is best for me. You can stuff it full of gear for the walk in, then when it’s half empty for the actual climb you can cinch it all down and it’s half the size.

I’ve been using the no longer available Montane Alpine Ultra - 38 plus - (bought off this forum) and found it to be perfect as a climbing sac. Not for everyone because of its pared down nature. But there are equivalents that are probably better specced available now.

photo attached on a vdiff in the Wye Valley that shows how far out of the way the top of the sac is once it has been rolled down.

In reply to veteye:

Not sure how you can tell from a photo, but it's plenty durable.

In the bag. Belay jacket (citadel), two spare pairs gloves, spare socks, survival bag, harness, half rack, food, water, spare base layer, first aid kit, coffee flask. This is in an FL30. FL40 obviously has more room.

Crampons and helmet on the outside for me. As above though, the FL40 will have plenty of room to stuff helmet and crampons inside too. The rolltop lets you stuff loads of gear in for the walkin, while still having a nice compact pack for the climb.

In reply to TomFox:

I think you'll only know which sacs allow you to look up while wearing a helmet by trying them on. I have this problem a lot, being short. I found that my biggest climbing sac (crux AK47) is the one that's actually least likely to have this problem. I mainly use it as a cragging sac but it's good for winter climbing too. Mine has lasted 13 years with heavy use (had the zip on the lid pocket replaced in 2016).

In reply to TomFox:

Have you just tried removing the metal frame struts from your pack? And does it have a removable lid?

In reply to TomFox:

Hi, 

Could I recommend "Lochaber Mountain Designs" who manufacture custome rucsacks specifically for winter and alpine climbing.

https://lochabermountaindesign.co.uk/

I was really pleased with the service and rucksack I received, having used it extensively in winter since getting it!

In reply to TomFox:

I've used the ME Tupilak 45L and rate it highly for winter. Packs down really small if not full, very durable and protective material and no issues with hitting the helmet (at least in my experience). Quite expensive but worth the money imo.

In reply to TomFox:

Rucksack preferences are such a personal thing, but from your list of requirements I suspect the Mammut Trion Nordwand 38 litre might fit the bill, certainly worth a look anyway:

http://tinyurl.com/4ht8j4eb

The lid is detachable and the main 'sack compartment has a roll-top closure, so you can just unclip the lid while gearing up and get it out of the way inside the 'sack - no more helmet catching when peering up at the way ahead.

Pretty light but robust 'sack - will swallow everything you need but a comfortable carry as they appear to have incorporated modern design developments from running packs into the harness system.

I've used a lot winter packs over the years but I feel this is the best thought out and practical for typical British style routes. Not especially cheap though! (But then again, hardly any are these days.)

Cheers, Col

In reply to veteye:

I've had an Alpha FL 30 for years now and the material is absolutely bombproof. And waterproof.

In reply to TomFox: I've got an MR Ogre and am thoroughly underwhelmed by it as a rucksack so don't buy one of those.  It's ok size, but the compression straps are too fiddly, come undone all the time, and it's just very meh for quite a lot of money.

I'd get the Arcteryx one - you don't hear many complaints. 

In reply to DaveHK:

Guilty as charged but this is such a good bag 

I recommended the 22ltr sprint because it's sufficient for a days climbing summer and winter for me, it's really tough, been using mine ( quite a bit) for 4 years and no sign of significant wear, it's very light 340g?

It's £44

it's not a 40ltr bag but maybe worth considering.

I pitched the other bag because same build quality, similar price, closer what the OP requested.

Of course you could just list about 4 or 5 great rucksacks all 40 ltrs, all about 1 kg, all upwards £150, all essentially the same product. 

Ps I hate the hook fastening on sprint lid

Following. I have exactly the same issue with the female equivalent. Bought it in desperation because there just wasn't an alternative. 

I gather the Guide used to have a detachable frame but got rid of it. Cannot think why on earth. I'm average female height and using a female pack but it's a right pain as you say. Can't remember if the lid detaches but I quite want to use the lid I paid for, for pockets and rope carrying.

I wondered if there were any professional who could remove the frame and restitch it nicely but I wouldn't know where to look. 

Sorry no solutions - there were quite a few without the hard top that I tried, but for me personally they didn't fit my back. If you're taller you may well have more luck. I almost bought the Ogre and took out the back pad and trimmed it down, but I have a feeling they're not making it now.

In reply to TomFox:

As a rule of thumb, any 30 - 45L sack with top tension straps on shoulder straps, will bang your head when looking up. Why packs of this size even require these, baffles me! 

Stuart 

In reply to TomFox:

I've got a Blue Ice Warthog and I'm a bit underwhelmed by it. It's very comfortable but I'm unconvinced by the closure design, especially for soggy Scotland. The best pack I've ever owned for winter was one of the older model Patagonia Ascensionist 40L. I still have a 30L one which I will never part with. If you can find one 2ndhand snap it up. I'll also second Colin's suggestion of the Trion Nordwand, really well designed pack.

In reply to 65:

I have the older Trion Norwand. Very light fabric but not robust, the snow lock is too short for overloading and the lid detachment is very fiddly. Plus no external attachment for crampons.

I believe these have been resolved in the current version but worth being aware of if you see a deal.

In reply to TomFox:

I've got an ME Tupilak 45. I am categorically not the intended user of this pack. I had the budget friendly ME Ogre which was OKish but failed under warranty. ME have stopped making the Ogre and I was feeling a bit flush so I took a punt on the upgrade rather than get my money back, and I'm glad I did.

I think it's a really, really great sack. The best thing I can say about it is that you just don't notice you're wearing it. It sits well and the strap/harness system has clearly had loads of thought put into it. The material seems really bomber/waterproof. It's a good size but isn't obtrusive when empty. And it's very light, which I'm appreciating more and more as I grind into middle-age.

It is expensive but seems roughly on a par with the Alpha FL or the smaller indie manufacturers. 

In reply to TomFox:

I do like my FL40, plenty tough enough and enough space for winter, (Rope and crampons on the outside, helmet in the top closure) 

the volume on these sacs is for an over filled sac so it probably a 33-35L sac in normal mode. 

I have a AK47 for when I want more space and although I do like it I prefer the FL 40 for its simplicity and surprisingly comfortable for something so basic.

In reply to TomFox:

:https://www.tradeinn.com/trekkinn/en/ferrino-instinct-40-5l-backpack/137496...

A friend has this, A very nice pack not cheap but very good she's impressed with it so far.

In reply to TomFox:

https://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rucksacks-Bags/Rucksacks/Montane-Fas...
 

50% off.  Good value for what you are looking for. 

In reply to tehmarks:

I do also, but it's 15L smaller than the OP's current pack and 10L smaller than what they're looking for. It might be a bit too much of an adjustment.

I also have an ME Tupilak 37 which is a good pack, but I've rarely used it, finding it too large for Scottish Winter and too small for backpacking.

In reply to veteye:

The material the Arcteryx FL packs is made from is far and away the most durable I've seen on a pack, considerably more so than the ME Tupilak range which is priced similarly.

In reply to planetmarshall:

I was replying on the subject of durability - there is a 45L version made out of the same material.

In reply to TomFox:

Anyone had experience with the Blue Ice Chiru 25 for a faster & lighter option? Thinking to get one I could also use for the odd sport/ single pitch trad trip if needed

In reply to midgen:

And what of the ropes?

In reply to Rampart:

Sits on top of the pack. 

In reply to Rampart:

I've always managed to get sufficient gear and clothing for a winter climbing day, plus a 60m half rope, inside an FL30 pack.

I'm not going to tell anyone whether they should take a larger or smaller pack out on the hill, ultimately it's up to them and what they feel comfortable with.

In reply to JSTaylor:

That's a very nice looking bag

In reply to TomFox:

I have two winter packs I use for Scottish winter guiding work, a ME Tupilak 37 which is four seasons old and basically still looks new and one of those white Rab roll top bags which is really tatty and the stitching is starting to fail after 11 months. I know which I would buy again!

I’ve also had the opposite experience with the Arcteryx FL packs which have all fallen apart fairly quickly, poor fabric and stitching and a terrible internal pocket design.

30l is too small for ‘normal’ Scottish winter in my opinion, something 40l ish is just about big enough for me, but I can live with rope and helmet on the outside.

In reply to TomFox:

Don't forget there are two versions of the FL30/40, the old ones were 30/40 with the use of the role top extended. The new one are 30/40 just the main body of the sac so 5 odd litres bigger.

There also really tough.

In reply to TomFox:

I just switched from an older Osprey Mutant 38 to a ME Tupilak 30+.

The Osprey was a bit more of a heavyweight design, with more padding and comfier straps. I replaced it as I had worn through the bottom, and worn through the tape I was using to patch the bottom. The pack saw a lot of use and the wear is in line with my expectations—it actually lasted a long time considering how much of a battering it was getting. It was a good pack design but I did have some concerns: [1] the removable top was too bulky for use climbing, so I almost never used it (this unfortunately meant I didn't have the cool helmet holder, which would have saved a lot of space); [2] the internal pocket on the main pack was too small; [3] the clips for securing the compression strap length were too fragile a design. 

I took the Tupilak out for it's first outing this weekend. I wanted a more lightweight pack and was weighing up ME Tupilak vs. the Arcteryx FL series. I know someone who has had an FL for years and it's their go-to pack, and is wearing quite well considering how lightweight the material is. I went for the Tupilak because it was on offer, and because it has a much larger internal zip pocket  which I like to have to for keys/torch/hat/goggles/suncream/etc (the pocket on the FL is basically useless). I found the Tupilak very comfy given the no-frills design, surprisingly stable to pack/unpack, and I didn't notice it at all during climbing (first pack I've had that didn't get in the way). It was snowing when we set off so I packed everything inside the bag including bulky things like a 50m rope, half-rack, crampons, helmet, and four sets of gloves. It was a tight fit, but it did all go inside, and I had the option to put crampons and rope on the outside if I needed more room. My only concern from that outing was that the internal baffle/roll-top got in the way a lot when rummaging and packing. 

Based on your needs, I'd strongly consider the larger sizes of the Arcteryx FL or ME Tupilak depending what price you can find them at. The Montane Fast Alpine looks good too but I haven't seen one in person yet—it looks like quite a tall pack which for me usually leads to helmet knocking. 

In reply to morpcat:

I had a Montane Fast Alpine before ditching it for the FL30. Although heavier, it's not waterproof at all. You can strip it right back but even then still quite strappy and faffy. I didn't feel like it fit any more in practice than the FL30, no outside attachment for crampons.

Agree on the Arcteryx pockets, they're only good for key, as they take up interior space which makes packing a pain if you put anything bulky in it. I organise stuff in stuff sacks anyway.

In reply to TomFox:

Just used my new Fang 42 from Mountain Equipment for some grade I and II stuff, helmet 'clearence' was absolutly fine, generally impressed with it except ice axe toggles are a bit fat so I tended to just pop the elasctic bit around the adze.

In reply to planetmarshall:

You say that but first day out using my FL30 I put a hole in where as my old Tupilak only failed when I hauled up granite in Cochamo... Maybe I was just unlucky as I do prefer the design. 

I also have the brand new FL30 and there are 2 pockets, one on outside (useless) and one on the inside which fits the SMC Winter guide which is all I really need it for. I have a dry bag for thing gloves, hat, headtorch that sits on the top of everything else inside my pack. 

I can get everything I need on the inside of the FL30 (60m half, rack, big belay jacket, big mitts, 2 pairs of gloves, waterproof jacket, mid layer, 500mL water, food, map/compass) with only crampons and helmet on the outside. Sometimes I strap my boots and/or waterproof bib's on the outside if its a pleasant day and/or its a long flat approach and I'm in fell runners.

In reply to TomFox:

I have an FL30 (2020) version which is a joy to climb with and surprisingly comfortable when fully loaded.

The material is supposed to be really tough but I've worn a couple of small holes in it where you attach crampons with the bungee cord, and if you hold it up to the light you can now see some light coming through the bottom where it seems to be wearing through. Last time I used it I picked it up (probably a bit over loaded) by one shoulder strap and it made a worrying ripping noise, although I cant see any actual damage. 

Also yeah don't know what the small outside pocket is for other than storing single sheets of A5 paper. 

I've now switched to a Blue Ice Firecrest 38 https://uk.blueice.com/products/firecrest-38-pack that seems to have way more, nice quality of life features including ice axe carry.

In reply to TomFox:

I've had a few osprey mutant 38s which have been very good.  The only reason I've had more than one is my stupidity rather than any failing of the bag, however, the mk1 was the best because I could remove my axes from the back while walking... The 38l size seems to be able pack in a whole lot more making it pretty flexible.

In reply to TomFox:

I've had an Aiguille Alpine bag (probably equivalent to the Bora in current range for the last 10 years or so.

https://www.aiguillealpine.co.uk/product/rucksacks-bags/climbing-alpineruck...

It's a spacious bag and I can get everything inside it for a Winter day (obviously the axes go on the outside on axe loops). It's a fair bit lighter than the Berghaus rucksack I had before it but it's bombproof, made from heavy duty cordura material. It's probably 1/3 heavier than any modern, similar sized pack but I'll take durability and space over weight.