UKH

Hey folks,

I'm window shopping axes for some low grade winter climbs, up to III, maybe IV.

I already have a walking axe with a straight shaft. But I was looking for something that kind of bridges the gap between a walking axe a fully technical ice axe.

I'm a big fan of DMM's equipment so I of course skimmed their website. I found the Vertex axe which seems to be a good mid way between a walking axe and a technical tool.
https://dmmwales.com/collections/ice-axes/products/vertex

Can anybody advise how you'd size an axe of this style?
They're offered in 50cm or 55cm, does 5cm make all that much difference?

I'll basically be buying 4 axes, 2 for me, 2 for my better half. We're both 5'7". 

Also, I'm open to suggestions if I'm on the wrong path with this.
Whilst I've been scrambling for years and a competent (but not particularly gifted) climber, winter climbing is pretty new to us so I just want to make sure I'm setting us up for success rather than failure.

Thanks in advance folks

I've got a pair of DMM Venoms going if you want them?  Yours for £100 for the pair.  See pic here:  https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/for_sale+wanted/pair_of_dmm_venom_ice_axe...

The Vertex is a fantastic tool, really versatile thanks to its geometry, weight, and sliding grip. Review here:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/gear/snow+ice/ice_axes/vertex_-_dmms_lightest...

For me it's pretty much perfect for mountaineering days and very roughly I'd use it in the grade I - III range, with III really being its upper limit. And probably not all IIIs either. Better climbers could doubtless take it further.

For pure ice or more involved rocky mixed climbing I think it's a bit lacking in oomph, and if I was climbing a IV I'd definitely be using something more technical (and actually a bit heavier) like the Apex. But the Apex isn't as good on walking terrain, mountaineering ridges or grade I snow plods. No one axe can excel at everything, and in terms of doing it all the Vertex has a good go.   

Oh, and I would say definitely go for 50cm if you aim to wield your axes in climbing mode

If you're good enough you can probably climb anything with any axe. I'm not very good though and for IV I'd certainly suggest something a bit more technical with a steeper pick and a proper moulded grip. It'll make things feel a touch easier and save your knuckles. If you're buying something to climb with then there's no real reason to go for a mountaineering axe (i.e. half way between a walking and technical axe) over perhaps a less extreme technical axe.

Traditionally these sorts of axes tend to be used for easy climbing in big mountains where the slight weight saving is worthwhile, or by people who wrongly assume they're a better choice for low grade climbs and perhaps want to use them predominantly as a walking axe. I remember taking a friend on his first winter route many years ago who had a pair of lightweight mountaineering axes, though with walking style picks rather than banana picks like those DMMs. He bought some technical axes immediately afterwards.

I use Petzl Quarks, which are a pretty common choice and do me fine for V and work for pretty much anything short of really hard mixed etc. If you're keen on DMM then maybe the Apex? I've never used them but I'm sure someone who has will comment soon enough.

If possible go to an actual climbing shop and give a few different axes a swing. It's surprising how different they can feel and you'll probably find there are some that instantly feel right and some that feel a bit wrong.

Might also be worth considering DMM Apex and Petzl Quark, as these seem to be very popular.

Also worth looking at UKC sales and ebay, because you can often pick up nearly new gear at a good price reduction.

Enjoy

Thanks buddy, appreciated.

This was more in the nature of a knowledge gathering exercise at the moment, but I'll definitely keep your advert in mind when it comes time to purchase.

Thanks for your thoughts Dan, that's great buddy.

That's some very sound advice there pal, I really appreciate that.

Thank you

That's a very fair point. A lot of advice to far seems to be trending towards more technical equipment rather than middle-of-the-road axes.

Thanks pal.

You will feel as big a difference between your walking axe and a vertex on classic ground, as you would between the vertex and the Apex on steeper ‘commit to axes’ terrain.

It wasn’t that long ago people would have happily climbed harder than IV on a vertex style axe.  However, and very broadly;

Vertex style axe; very good for long approach classic terrain involving a mix of walking, daggering, short steep steps when a second axe will aid progression, or quickly dispatching long snowy couloirs. So things like Tower, Golden Oldie, Central Couloir on Ben Lui,  Deep South, and Cullins when properly snowy.  Good in the alps, on alpine mountaineering either as a single axe or double.

Once you have an axe like this you would probably take instead of your walking axe on Anoach Eagach, Forcan Ridge, Etc.  If you buy these you will never sell them, but you will find yourself getting more technical axes later if you get into ice and/or mixed.

Personally I’d look for vertex style second hand Petzl Sumtec, Grivel Alpwing or similar. Then buy more technical later if needed.

Both you and your partner need to hold and swing, before buying.

Ahh, thanks bud. That's great advice.

I might be taking coals to Newcastle here;

Spend as much, or more time, getting boots that fit (with particular focus on avoiding heel lift, and toe pinch) with a good crampon fit (beware of offset to one side, lack of front point protrusion, heel extension, excessive vibration, any rattle, gap between boot sole and ‘pons,  and ensure the binding goes home with force and a very solid thunk. 

Your feet are literally the foundation to everything.

Grade IV isn't really "easy", IV,4 on ice can have sustained sections of ice where, although definitely not vertical, you will be pulling hard on your tools. There can be the odd step of vertical or near vertical on IV too. On mixed IV can IV,5 or IV,6 where you will be doing pulling hard on tools hooked (occasionally torqued) on rock holds or in cracks. I did a mixed IV,4 in Wales two weekends ago where I was swinging for frozen turf and then hanging most of my weight through the placement as I tried to find rock edges for my crampons. I was trying out a pair of fully technical tools - they type people are using on the hardest routes - and they were absolutely fine. No real disadvantages. And grade IIIs aren't necessarily pushovers.

If you want the tools to climb primarily - you say you have a walking axe already - I'd get decent climbing tools with a curved shaft but not an offset lower handle (Nomics and that style have the offset lower handle). I've got 15 year old BD Vipers and had Quarks before them. You can walk off and approach Scottish routes on snow with them no problem, but when you swing, they are proper climbing tools. I've climbed V,6 with mine and better people will climb much harder, but have been perfectly happy soloing IIs and secure IIIs with them. 

Yep, that's a fair point. I've got decent boots and crampons though, confident with them at least.

No, that's a fair point Toby. And well taken.

Perhaps suggesting we might be up to IV was a bit optimistic. Reality is mostly I or II's but there are a couple of III's I'd like to have a look at too (assuming they ever get into condition with Welsh winter).

Appreciate your advice Toby.

Concentrate on mixed climbs over gullies to get out winter climbing in Wales as much as possible!

Many grade Is you can do with one axe - so unless your walking axe is very long, I'm sure it will work fine. If you do use that, best to get a wrist loop for it if you don't already. This can be as simple as a piece of cord with a loop on one end for your hand to go through, which I larks foot onto the hole on the head of my tool when I want to start pulling on the axe holding the handle down by the spike. Smooth shaft walking axes can be quite slippery without a wrist loop when you climb with them. I did Crib Lem on Carnedd Dafydd on an amazing day in early Nov (!) 2019, (blue sky, frozen turf, lots of fluffy new snow everywhere - using only one axe. It was absolutely fine but I realised even despite pretty nice weather and good gloves, my non-axe hand got really cold grabbing snowy rocks, sweeping snow off handholds etc. I decided to find a light second tool of some kind, even for grade I ridge scrambles and the like in future, or just to bring two climbing tools. So for Bristly Ridge or Crib Lem, in good winter conditions, it's not being over equipped to have a pair of tools like Quarks or Vipers (or Vertex), even if you end up soloing and mainly just have one in your hand. If you ambitions take you as far as Clogwyn y Person Arete (III 4) - a superb climb for the grade, then definitely a pair of tools is what you want. 

The two things that you want on all round mountaineering tools in the UK is 1) a spike on the bottom - so there is grip against bare ice or very hard snow. Some technical tools like DMM Switches https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/snow+ice/ice_axes/dmm_switch_ice_axes-6189 don't have that which I always noticed the absence of using them in UK winter. The tech tools I'm trying out this winter, Edelrid Rage, do have a spike so I found them immediately more suited to all round winter than the Switches - and that's just from one route. Then the second thing you want is a reasonably smooth head profile, so when you are holding the head to the tool like a walking axe, particularly if you are plunging it, there's nothing too spikey there which hurts or is at least uncomfortable in the hand. You might not need to use the axe that way at all if you are continental ice climbing with abseil descents or walks off through snow forests, but you do need to use the axe like that getting to, and getting off most UK grade Is, IIs and IIIs (and harder actually!).  The Edelrid Rage falls down slightly here - they have teeth on the top of the blade for stein pulling. This is great for stein pulling (which I think I have never done in about 20+ UK winters - I have done them on mixed routes in another country and dry tooling here), but not so comfy for walking around use the tool as a walking aid! But look at the top of a Quark or a Viper and you'll see they are flat to be comfy held that way. 

It's worth considering that the weird little nose thing on the Flys/ Venoms will naturally wind up around the fleshy bit at the base of your thumb when you are using it as a walking axe (you still need to walk to and from the route and keep yourself safe in that bit), I find this has a habit of bruising that fleshy bit on my hand on longer walks.

From what I understand it's a relic from the older style of Flys which predated leashless axes and was used to help you hammer one in a bit more firmly. You may want to consider covering it with something soft to avoid this.

With some kit, the more technical versions still work fine at lower grades. Boots for example, a pair of Phantom Techs is overkill for grade I gullies but assuming they fit you they will still be nice to use.

I don't think axes are like this, more technical models are less nice to use on easier ground and you're not going to reap the advantages of using them on harder stuff.

Flys haven't had this for quite a while as far as I know.

I think this is the most recent version of the fly?

https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/dmm-fly-ice-tool/

The bit I was talking about is on the top of the blade and has been present on all iterations of the Fly that I am aware of. 

It's only relevant for second hand tools now anyway as they have stopped making the fly.

Why is it that a company decides to stop making one of its most popular products?! I was going to recommend Flys to the OP (along with Quarks)... Still a very solid choice for Scottish winter ≤IV, I would have thought...

Lots said already, and see you like DMM...

But I am like you, more a scrambler, mountaineer, winter climbing only to about 4+ ish -- whatever that means.  I got Petzl Quarks about 10 years ago and they have been brilliant both up here in Scotland AND also for the Alps in summer. 

They're really light.  And they're modular.  I took the funny trigger finger thing off (was useless for me anyway due to hand issues), and it works perfectly as a scramble axe, gully axe, high tech thing.... I would buy the same pair again now.

Whatever you buy, have fun.

I've used friends' flys in the past and remember exactly what Spenser is talking about. That raised spike from the top of the pick makes them quite painful to plunge. I think the original ones had it even more prominent. The Chacal and Barracuda probably started the trend and late 80s/90s generation Grivel tools had similar. It was less pronounced on Charlet Moser tools although still there up to Quarks. I think the idea was you could hammer the blade in if you should wish, but I remember the BD (IIRC) research where they found tools weren't that strong if you tried belaying on them having done that - shearing pick bolts etc. 

No idea, I bought them with the intention of using them for climbing and walking. A friend offered me a 20+ year old walking axe which I take in preference to the flies if I am out walking as it's just more comfortable (albeit a bit heavier I think). My winter climbing is near none existent as the drive up from Derby doesn't feel worth it with my luck for conditions.

I did a steinpull on a Welsh grade II one time but I think that was an anomaly.

To the op, if you already have walking axes I'd just get some mid range technical axes like vipers or quarks. I do 90% of my winter climbing with a pair of vipers and quarks before them, they will get you comfortably up anything from steep banked out grade I to pretty much as high a grade you want.

If you are really set on DMM, its worth noting that they have a new pair of technical axes coming out in the spring and I think there are some updates to those current range (redesigned apex?).

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I bet you felt really cool though!

There's a pic of me doing one leading a mini mixed route in Finland kicking around - I think it's in the DMM switch review. I did fall off slightly after the pic was taken though. My mate HeMa who is probably lurking here somewhere shared it on FB just the other day as it was in his memories from 10 years ago - that made me feel very old. 

Just buy some second hand axes to start with IMO I'd go for some midranged climbing axes if you already a have walking axe.  Something like a pair of vipers, quarks etc. Yes some other less techy axes will make the easy ground a bit easier but by the time you get to the trickier IIs and III's never mind IVs what you really want is to make the harder ground easier. I personally don't see much utility in getting less techy axes than this if you already have a walking axe. More techy axes with the shaped handle / grip (like the petzl nomics etc) are probably too much IMO for what you currently need / aspire to. I would go leashless from the start if I was you and get some lanyards, much more fluid and less faff. Get a hammer adze pair.

50 cm all the way ofc.

If you dont like the axes, buying them second hand means you can sell them on again with minimal losses. 

Key advice would be to learn  when and where good conditions are likely to occur and on which type of routes and how to avoid being avalanched.  Bear in mind also any grade in bad conditions can be hard. But grade II is certainly not always easy even in reasonably good conditions. Grade III winter in good nick once you are accustomed should probably feel like a mountain Severe or so in Summer and IV around a VS (if you are equally good at both disciplines). Its hard to compare ofc but I'm just trying to give you a feel for it here. If you fdind Diff in summer challenging then grade II in good nick is comparible.

Petzl quarks look good for these grades. They weigh less than other axes, are well designed. But expensive.

I have a pair of these- the hammer was on a really good sale.

https://edelrid.com/gb-en/sport/crampons-and-ice-axes-shop/riot-adze?varian...

Similar to quarks. Slightly heavier but I got them for £245 total which wasn't bad. Engineered and manufactured in Germany.

Whichever axes you buy check if buying the hammer and adze is cheaper than buying them as a pair and vice versa.

Enjoy the hills!

When they were £55 each I'd have recommended Singing Rock Edges, but the cheapest I can see them now is £90 ea unless you spot a used pair. They're like a budget Sum'tec with a very comfortable head for Piolet Canne and just enough of a bend for daggering with some knuckle clearnace. They have modular picks that will take an Adze, hammer or spacer and the shaft will take a Petzl Trigrest. £10 for spare picks.  They do have a bare metal shaft rather than a rubber grip, but I've found 6" of bicycle inner tube (free to slide but sticks when gripped) can follow the trigrest up and down as required and does insulate a bit. But of course, Trigrests aren't cheap. My other axes are Apexes and the Edges get used on ridges or one at a time as a walking axe at 55cm.

£99 each for Vertex here. I didn't need a pair but couldn't resist at that price!

https://www.ultimateoutdoors.com/16562034/dmm-vertex-axe-50cm-red-16562034

I’m tempted as well and I don’t even go climbing anymore ! 

Axes arrived a few days ago and I'm worried...

‘Reproductive Harm!’  That’s an odd thing to do with an ice axe hammer. But each to their own. 

Thanks for all the advice guys!

I really appreciate your thoughts and opinions.

It seems like there's no real disadvantage to going for more technical axes over the less technical axes other than price. But the less technical axes can get out of their depth quite quickly if progressing over steeper or mixed terrain. So, I'll re-start my window shopping at slightly more technical axes.

So, I'm seeing a lot of positive thoughts regarding Vipers and Quarks, thanks guys.
Edelrid Riots look like a good option too, and fairly affordable compared to the competition.

I'll always remain a steadfast fan of DMM equipment so I'll keep an eye out for updated ranges of these too.

Again, thanks for all the thoughts folks.
I'm hoping to get out over Jan and Feb and put some miles in on easy routes

I noticed the Vertex(es/ices) were £99 each in store at Go Outdoors the other day (Derby store). Think you'd be hard pushed to find a better option for the OP at that price. I was half tempted myself and definitely don't need any more tools!

Edit : Oh I guess Go Outdoors are rebranding again, same company. 

I don't think so. Ultimate Outdoors are part of Blacks, which also owns Millets.  Go Outdoors is owned by JD Sports.  However Go Outdoors has acquired a number of former Millets shops. 

They both have shops in Derby, but at different addresses.

Looks like all of them, Go Outdoors, Blacks, Millets, and Ultimate Outdoors are JD subsidiaries now. Their pricing and stock has been in sync for some time. 

I stand corrected, I didn't dig deep enough. However they are separate brands, and Ultimate Outdoors is not a rebranding of Go Outdoors, as Midgen seemed to suggest.  

A few thoughts and some elaboration on suggestions others have made.

The DMM Vertex is a copy of the fantastic Petzl Sum'tec. Unfortunately it misses one of the key features . The Sum'tec was designed by the late Ueli Steck for Alpine ascents by combining the picks from Petzl technical axes with a simple light shaft. This is great for someone like myself, or other keen climbers, who have used Petzl axes for ages and have lots of picks sitting with varying amounts of wear.  As someone starting out it is much less important, perhaps even irrelevant, but still it's useful to be aware of it.

DMM axes are generally a bit heavier and more robust than the Petzl equivalents. That's great and loads of my mates love them. However, despite the fact that I've completely worn out a set and a half of Petzl Quarks, I much prefer the handling and swing of the Petzl ones. Hand size also comes into it and the Petzl ones might suit smaller hands and/or slighter builds.

As regards other makes, the good news is that unlike the Stubai Hornets of the 2000's, the budget options are no longer objectively dreadful compared to Petzl, BD etc.. The Singing Rock Bandits already mentioned are good (one of my regular partners uses them) and great value for money. I can't comment personally on any of the Climbing Technology North Couloir, Edelrid Riot or CAMP X-All Mountain but all the general climbing axes are now extremely similar in design and geometry. 

Over the last few years I've ended up climbing with one of two completely different options:

1) Petzl Quarks for absolutely everything gade I to grade VI, mountaineering, ice routes & mixed routes. 

2) Petzl Sum'tecs for grades I to III plus some grade IV. Petzl Nomics for grade IV, V and VI.

The Sum'tecs are absolutely great, but quite frankly, I'd prefer to climb grade I-II with a Quark occasionally, rather than regularly climb solid grade IV ice routes with Sum'tecs (even with pick weights and an additional grip rest). 

That said it won't be the end of the world if after 2-3 years you decide to sell your initial axes and buy some more technical ones. 

That's the general advice but when you start to consider individual situations, experience and aspirations, that's where it gets far more complicated:

How hard do you both lead on trad routes? If it's multipitch E2+, buy Quarks (or similar), if it's DViff on a good day buy Vertexes/Sum'tecs. If it's somewhere in between, it depends...

If you have loads of climbing mates who lead Gade V+, buy Quarks (or similar).

If you're only going to Winter climb 3-4 days each year, buy Vertexes.

If you're quiting your job and moving to Scotland to climb for two months, buy Quarks.

Anyway, I hope that's vaguely useful and Climb Safe if/when you do get out.

Hi Mark,

I really appreciate your thoughts on this, that's brilliant mate.

I think maybe considering us climbing up to grade III was a bit optimistic. I think realistically we're at grades I - II.
On trad I lead up to HS and my other half leads at VDiff. We're relative newbies to climbing having only been climbing outdoors in earnest this past year.

Realistically our winter climbing will be done mostly in North Wales, which gets fleeting winter conditions.
I'd love to spend more time in Scotland but the commute and fuel costs are prohibitive for us at the moment (getting married and buying a house this year).

As I do with all things, I've read the entire internet about the brands/models of axes available in my price range and the Edelrid Riots are looking like a favourite at the moment. But I do still like the look of the Vertexes although they aren't as technical as some of the others. It's more mountaineering we'll be doing and easy routes rather than vertical ice climbs so something in this range looks like it will do the trick.

Thanks for your thoughts on this though Mark, I really appreciate it.

No worries. Always glad to help.

Lighter note, an online inflation calculator tells me that I spent the equivalent of £463 on my first pair of axes in 1996.  You'll be fine whatever you decide - the quality, choice and prices you have today are just excellent in comparison! 

Each brand's technologies seem to be catching up to each other which brings the price down of the market as there's more to choose from in the same categories.
And the technology isn't as new now as it was back in '96. Manufacturing costs are theoretically lower with more technical and efficient equipment allowing manufacturers to distribute more cheaply too.

Back to window shopping

The problem with the verex's is the handle, metal is slippery and cold. Also even at grade II leashless (with lanyards) is a much nicer experience than leashes (which are just such a faff), you could easily get to grade III if you lead HS IMO. For leashless you will want a rubber/plastic handle not just metal and a grip rest. Also bare in mind grip rests do break leaving just a slippery handle.

Home made handles (self amalgamating tape etc) are not nearly as good as factory fittted ones on axes like vipers. They will be harder work to hold on to and less secure. The vipers would be great for you, not too radically bent, very robust, great handles and grip rests. An upper grip rest is a nice to have but not really needed under hard grade IV or so. The bend in the handle helps to  get around irregularites in the rock / ice and makes the handle easier / less work to hold, as well as making it less likely you'll smack your fingers against rock / ice.

Quarks historically have been a bit less robust than the vipers IMO, the shaft dinks and deep gauges more easily especially on the head and the grip rests are prone to breaking especially the upper one (I cant comment on if this is still true). I think the DMM apex with the more curved handle is not a positive for you. You should be able to pick up a pair of vipers second hand with lanyards on ebay either the orange or more modern grey model for about 200 - 250 pounds for Pair of axes. That will see you good for every situation you'll need them for.

A bit more weight can be a good thing for climbing especially in the head, frozen turf and ice are still often encountered on any grade of winter climb and it can help with penetration. I don't think the weight saving of the verex is really a worth while trade off for you and the bettter performance of Vipers etc will win out in the long run. You don't want to be buying another set of axes in a couple of years just because you bought vertex and you start to bump up against their limitations. There isn't a lot of limitations with the vipers for you, they can be a harder to plunge in some condiitions, a bit more weight on the walkin and ice axe belays can be a bit simpler to build with old school straight axes with no grip rests and little in the way of grips, none of these are biggies and not something you'll even notice all that regularaly IMO. Making the easy ground a tiny bit harder is a worth while trade off for making the hardest ground of the day easier.

grade II ground isn't always easy check some pics here https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/cairn_gorm_-_stob_coire_an_t-sneac... https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/cairn_gorm_-_stob_coire_an_t-sneac...

Fixed that

You should be able to pick up a pair of vipers second hand with lanyards on ebay either the orange or more modern BLACK model

Grey was the original version 

I have a pair of Petzl Aztars which I don’t think are still made, but they are in good condition and I have a set of both B blades (ice) and T blades (mixed).  Plus both types of lease you could get for them. Plus a twin elasticated lease.  

Used Scottish winter, Alpine water ice, and Alpine mountaineering.  Max grade I’ve climbed with them is WI 6 when a decade younger.

Might be tempted to sell them as I’m not doing so much ice climbing these days. They are in the loft and I’d have to get them down to grab some photos.

Here is a link to an old advert on UK Climbing

https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/snow+ice/ice_axes/petzl_charlet_aztar_ice_a...

My mistake. I had the orange ones and before that quarks. the grey ones look a bit less suited to leashless as the hole in the spike that lanyards would clip gets filled up if the fang grip rest is used.,

Thanks for that Stevo, that's brilliant mate.

Thanks buddy. That's great. They look like nice tools!

It's funny to see how the design of the previous generations of ice axes follows a similar design to the less technical axes of today.
The Aztar's look quick similar to the DMM Vertex axes in their design.

If you get 5mins a picture and a rough price certainly couldn't hurt

In reply to Neelofer:

Appreciate the thought there Neelofer.

My other half and I are both 5' 7" too, but I'll be looking to buy 4 axes too, a pair for each of us.

Niot sure if anybody has mentioned Grivel North Machines. Very light tools which place better than many heavier tools. Have used DMM Apex for years now up to WI4+ and much prefer the Grivels. I know some will rave about the Apex, for me I just didn't get on with them, finding them heavy, the cranked shaft made them cumbersome to place in some situations and forget placing a peg. Have retired my Apexs to my spare tools for the odd trip to Scotland this year and will most likely sell them.

Thanks Mike, another worthy contender for sure.

Those Cassin X all mountain look good and in yr price range - I haven't used them though.

https://www.tiso.com/eamga8ti0111/cassin-x-all-mountain-hammer-ice-axe-oran...

this article covers some of this  youtube.com/watch?v=I7EEkDMuBl0&

They're a smart looking bit of kit!
Thanks Stevo.

I haven't used Cassin X All Mountain but I'd definitely look at them on the basis that the X-Dreams are excellent.

The light machine is probably better for I-III gullies, mainly because the rest allows for plunging. I've got a pair, and they're fine for up to V mixed, and probably beyond. 

In the absence of a 2nd hand pair of aliens, vertex, either length. 

those cassin X AM do have quite a radical curve and handle to pick angle  on though greater than vipers or quarks. I still think second hand vipers would suite you best, but those grivel light machines or second hand Aztar's would be fine I'm sure (for a less techy axes shape). For similar geometry to the later DMM flys are OK just on the heavy side now a days,

Actually the pinky rest on the North Machine is quite minimal with a profile which is quite thin compared to other axes. They are actually pretty easy to plunge with.

Is there any official info about new tech axes and/or redesigned Apexes in the public domain yet? I remember there was some discussion in an earlier thread after OTS in mid 2023 but I haven’t heard anything apart from that. I guess there must be winter trade shows coming up soon, but I’m curious about what might be in store.

Agree with your point. Also, from personal experience DMM Fly axes are brilliant up to V.

I’m thinking of upgrading my late 90’s grivel ‘the machine’  for a pair of ‘north machine carbon’  or BD Vipers to suit me for UK  II - IV (&V If seconding) , and alpine AD/D.
Also potentially an ice trip at some point next year to Europe /America for up to WI3  but highly unlikely. 

How do you find plunging the North Machines on approaches ? Is the spike really a nuisance ?

I’ve never had an upper grip rest so not sure what I’m missing but was contemplating choosing the vipers as they  have an upper grip rest & better spike for plunging.  Does the lack of one really one really hold the grivels back ? 
 

I feel the Vipers look more sensible due to the spike & grip rest  but the Grivels are lighter & potentially warmer for my pathetic tiny cold hands.
 

Sorry for hijacking this but better than starting a new thread I guess. 
 

So I borrowed a pair of carbon ones a few years ago and in the strength of that I bout the alu ones. I'd say unless you are really pushing it and every gram counts, just get the alu ones. There's not much weight difference and they will be more robust. Grip rest is REALLY useful. If you're on old leashed tools you won't understand yet that you can switch tools really easily and that it's really useful to be able to do that. Of course you can switch without a grip rest, but it helps. But also its supper useful when placing screws. I often will place an axe high and then switch grips to the higher one so that my arm is absolutely straight when placing a screw which is so much less strenuous.

In terms of viper vs these, I'd say the difference in placing is negligible. The grivel picks are bloody superb. I've modified mine by putting the petzl trig rest on which sit on top of the pinky nubbin. Works fine. If you don't want it for easier routes you can just take it off. And they genuinely plunge pretty well. Sure its not as easy as a  straight shaft MT vertige but it's not bad either...

That’s great thanks. 
The main reason I was thinking of the carbon option was the shafts are supposed to be warmer, which may help as I really suffer from cold hands.

There’s  only a few grams difference which I don’t think I’d notice the difference between the two. 
 

Can you slide the petzl grip rest up without any major issues  or is it fixed once it’s on untill you’re somewhere warm with your gloves off? Just curious more than anything, I can’t imagine it would make much difference as I don’t suppose anybody really moves them much, & the rest of the shaft may be taped up preventing it sliding. 

 

oh and finally, have you filled those glove ripping spikes off the top of the axe  ? 

I haven't used them for daggering much so not had that problem.

definitely not. They're much lighter than most axes so that's what you'll notice.

I can't remember. I think you can, but it's a bit fiddly.

Yep for sure. No stein pulls for me...

Ideal. Thanks for all of the help, much appreciated !  I think it made up my mind and will be getting a nice new pair of grivels tools. 
 

Regarding axe weight I meant I don’t think there’s much different between the grivel aluminium & grivel carbon versions (15-20grams at most which is negligible ) it was more the warmth I was worrying about with carbon/aluminium, which may be stupid as putting fresh gloves on more regularly is probably more helpful than carbon axes

In the shop all axes swung nicer than my current ones.