UKH

Having a Quick Look in the threads, I feel I'm about to kick a hornets nest.

Many years ago, 90's, I was one of many who have come unstuck from Three Pebble Slab, my first 'E1'?, it was a great reverse swallow dive if I say so myself.  I see it is now considered an HVS, when and why was the grade changed?

Seems to flick between the grades every few years. Personally I think its HVS 4C.

E1 5a for me, given that the slab moves are definitely a grade harder than stuff like Hargreaves' Original (VS 4c), and it should definitely be at the bold end of the adjective grade given the run-out.

I'd say the current HVS 5a was borderline irresponsible if it wasn't so obvious what you're getting yourself into from the ground!

Was HVS when I did it in the 80s

Surely it's E0?

Led it twice. I thought it was top end HVS

Consensus I guess, but worth noting that grades are a continuous spectrum and there is - literally - no difference between a top end HVS and a bottom end E1. In much the same way there is no difference between 0.9 recurring and 1.

It's certainly not concensus. Chris decided it should be HVS when the UKC logbook votes at the time indicated E1 by a reasonably clear margin....and lo.... E1 is where the new concensus is in the logbook.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/froggatt_edge_derbyshire-22/three_...

PS finishing left above the 5a technical crux pocket is HVS but the topo line in Rockfax takes the bold slab (which is the E1 4c bit).

You can have a bit of fun with AI by asking “what grade is Three Pebble Slab?”, however everybody knows it is definitive E0. 

Actually it’s top end V0 so maybe V0+ 😁

Done it at both grades, and see it as that route in the middle of both, and just think of it as Three Pebble Slab-That climb.

It's E1 if you're absolutely desperate for an E1 tick, and HVS if you want to show how easy it was for you, and that you're not sure what the fuss was about.

I've done bolder VSs in Yorkshire, at more.or less the same technical difficulty. But, that's probably just because Yorkshire folk are proper tight, whereas the Derbyshire lot are proper nesh.

What other routes are there that provokes such a debate over grades. 

For me, no more climbing, Atrial Fibrillation, fat, massively over weight, grumpy as hell and ugly all prevent from climbing anymore.  I use to love the drive up the M1 to Derbyshire with the anticipation of the climbing day ahead.  The joys of getting old.

Really depends what your slab climbing is like. I’d say HVS but then slabs I’m good at, where as brute force overhangs not so much.

None, TPS is like an itch that can't be ignored.

Chalkstorm (E3 5c) has a debate about whether it's E3 or E4 for the true on-sight and what the grade is with a side runner (HVS-E2) but that's "championship" level whereas TPS is premier league.

Think of all that weight you can put on your feet! 

It's clearly HVS if you climb it and E1 if you fall off... (a bit like flying buttress direct)

More seriously though it's HVS compared with all the E1s I've climbed (but then I didn't fall off).

If you climb it and and you aren't sure then try Checkers Crack a little bit further along if you think these are the same grade then you can have the E1 for TPS.

Chequers Crack is an unfair example: I've not grappled with it, but it looks significantly meatier than Chequers Buttress, which also gets the same grade... And, tbh, it looks like more of a struggle than pretty much any E1 I've ever done...! Given HVS 5c, which means we're already admitting that it's 2 grades harder than TPS.

Exactly, climb both and then grade TPS. 

I can't imagine there are many people who climb both who would rate TPS as _harder_ than it's neighbour.

In fact it's a good experiment, we assemble a statistically significant number of HVS/E1 climbers who have never climbed at Froggatt and randomly assign them the order in which to try both routes.

They then attempt both routes and grade them relative to each other and relative to the other HVS/E1s they have climbed. About 10,000 volunteers should get the margin of error small enough to put this argument to bed once and for all.

We could have the red cross on hand to provide medical support for TPS and PTSD counselling for Chequers Crack.

In the late 70,s when we went to Froggatt for the first time, we did both those routes the same day before cams at HVS and Chequers felt grades harder than TPS. To really get a feel for grade disparity though I think both Beechnut and Stiff Cheese were also HVS at the time. SC would probably have been the most difficult HVS in The Peak at the time.

I lead TPS back in the early/mid '90s. Seem to remember the guy I was climbing with was having a bad day and fell off it, so I ended up leading it. Thought it was ok for the HVS grade at the time.

Pretty sure that was the same day I fell off Chequers Crack, also HVS, and made a mess of the back of my leg (fell across the rope in shorts).

You can't easily compare them - TPS is mainly slab and Chequers Crack, well, you can probably tell. Also, CC is much more sustained than TPS, which only really has a couple of hard moves on it.

Therefore, might have been a different story had I tried CC earlier in the day.

Tody's Wall might be a better comparison

The BMC guide gave Chequers Buttress Extremely Severe when I did it in October 1973. It was my first Extreme, I was over the Moon. 

I did try ages ago when I was going quite well, I think it was only 5b or maybe even 5a back then. As I remember I hardly got off the ground so I think it's quite a safe route in that sense, you're doing well to get far enough that a fall with no runners is going to hurt!

Last time I was a Froggatt I saw a woman having a total 'mare on 3PS. She was there for ages and hadn't moved in the time we took to go and do another route. Hope she got up (or down) safely in the end! I've often thought I might be OK on it, but that put me off again. I'll second someone up at some point I guess!

Exactly nothing. Sunset Slab gets HVS 4b and would make a much fairer comparison to TPS than Chequers Crack. But, if you look at Sunset Slab, TPS and CC with any rigour, the correct conclusion is not that TPS is "definitely HVS", but that trad grades are far from a comprehensive and definitive method of demarcating "difficulty" - which is, anyway, a  multifaceted, contingent and subjective concept.

The thing about 3ps is its a friction slab, which is ridiculously easy if your confidant/good at that sort of thing but feels absolutely desperate if it's a style your not happy on. I've led it a couple of times and think it's firmly in the HVS bracket (for the record I don't like friction slabs and have been rescued off other HVS slabs in the past!

If its E1 I'm struggling to think of easier ones on grit,Anniversary Arête (E1 5b) or Easter Rib (E1 5b) at stanage perhaps?

And because it's so hard it sees lots and lots (and lots!) of falls.  The climbing is hard, but if you're any good at all at placing gear then falling off it is very safe.  Apples -vs- oranges really.  TPS has much easier moves towards the top (albeit of a completely different type) than pretty much anything on Chequers Crack but the leader absolutely can't afford to fluff the last couple.  (Significantly easier moves towards the top than its own reasonably well protected crux too, although still slightly harder than the crux of Sunset Slab (HVS 4b)  - ah, but is that really HVS?  Those who claim TPS is HVS would probably say no.)

If you want to bring Chequers Crack into a grade debate, I don't think TPS has any place in that debate.  To just more or less just pluck a list out of the air, better to compare it to:

Saul's Crack (HVS 5a), Tower Crack (HVS 5b),Nowanda (HVS 5a) and Dexterity (E1 5b). 

I actually found The Vice (E1 5b) easier than Chequers Crack, my offwidth mojo was clearly working well that day (and I arguably cheated slightly by taping up).

I think it's HVS, too, for the record. Those top moves (4b?) are nowt if you've spent a lot of time bouldering on grit slabs, not withstanding that you'd be fked if you fell off them, unless your belayer was extremely nimble.

When I did dexterity circa 20yrs ago it was HVS. Linked it with April arête top pitch to give wildly contrasting pitches. Found dexterity hard and thugg!! Not my preferred style…probably why I found it hard. April arête though lovely. 

I reckon the big pocket would just spit the cam out if your second ran away trying to take the slack in

Maybe...? I think the cam would be fine, personally, but I have serious doubts that the belayer could move fast enough.

Yep. 

I think the wire would probably be ok too. (Surely nobody places the cam but leaves out the wire do they?)  But unless the belayer takes off and accelerates like a startled hare it's academic: the leader is almost certainly going to deck anyway.

The one time I actually fell off the crux both bits of gear seemed bomber.  But that fall did come as a complete surprise to my belayer (and myself!), so no time to react.

My friend put a wire in the crux pro and fell off. It obviously ripped and he had a ground-skimmer from the hard bit of the route. I reckon if you do that it's probably E1. I found the move pretty tricky for 5a; I think it is quite dependent on your limb ratio.

If you're sensible and put a green cam in the top hole then it's probably HVS. 

It would be quite hard at HVS though.

A pig of an HVS is typically harder than a softy E1. The overlap of grades keeps us all on our toes. It'd be boring if we knew the exact difficulty of a route before leaving the floor. One of the beauties of climbing is not knowing whether we can defo get up the route or not.

Browns Eliminate at the same crag is one of those routes that to onsight is pretty hairy and fair at E2, but repeating it, with the knowledge that the bold section is piss, is well easy and feels like an E1.  I remember being pretty intimidated on my first attempt, but can repeat it in approach shoes now.

See above - I always thought the wire was bomber so am a bit surprised it ripped, let alone 'obviously ripped', and was relieved to find this did appear to be the case when I actually tested it.

The old guide did say that the pocket "happily accepts wires, which always waggle out" or words to that effect, but I assumed that the placement must have worn over time to become a better fit.  (Perhaps even specifically for the Wild Country Rock I always put in there.  It'll take a wire and a cam mind, and I've always placed both.)

The crux isn't really the issue as far as protection goes though - it's a 5a move that's reasonably protected albeit a bit run out.  What you really can't afford to mess up on the lead are the couple of consecutive significantly easier but non-trivial moves just below the top-out.  (YMMV but low-end 4c I reckon.)

If the route was like that all the way up we'd be debating whether it was really E1 4c, just like you can also debate whether Sunset Slab is really HVS 4b.

Perhaps it wobbled out then. To me it looked like a perfect cam, as lobe tracks have been worn into it!

I can't remember now, is one of those where the cam takes up a useful part of the hold. And is it aid if you jam against the edge of the cam?

If my memory is correct, you get a goodish nut in the pocket (with some slight risk of it lifting) and then a cam/friend above it that holds it securely in place. Or have the placements worn still further?

It takes a perfect green cam and frankly given the limited utility of gear on the route, never bothered backing it up with anything else. 

IIRC the issue is making sure you don't inadvertently knock the wire (and the cam?) with your foot when you step into the pocket. Actually knocking it's ok if you realise straight away - reverse - reposition gear - try again with more careful foot placement. The real problem's not realising you've knocked the placement - the gear looks like it's still happily in because you're above it at that point and cant peer into the pocket to check and see a potentially critical shift.

I'm of the "it's HVS" camp regardless of the boldness of the true finish - but that friction finish will feel really scary if it's a true on-sight with no prior knowledge that the actual friction moves "go" no problem.

I'm disappointed in you.

4c onsight padding at 10m with a prospective ground fall is standard lowish E1.  Such routes illustrate why our trad UK grading system is so wonderful (and from the comments how so many just don't get it).  I'd add, there isn't much practice for such 4c grit padding elsewhere on routes so it's a skill many lack. It's standard on US granite (5.7 R/X equivalent). 

The old Yorkshire VS sandbags with high 4c moves with ground falls in prospect, mentioned above, are a different style of slab and were always stupidly graded and some have been upgraded now anyhow.

I'm much more relaxed with safe sandbags like Chequers Crack (which should be E1). Some of the old grades being quoted are irrelevant as gear and rock (broken holds) has changed and lowish  cruxes tended to be ignored back then in adjectival grading.

I don't think so, at least for hands - it's a big pocket in the middle of a balancy slab route after all.  But I think Michael is right that there might be more of a risk of booting it if you stuff your foot into the pocket later. 

Michael said: "reverse - reposition gear - try again with more careful foot placement"

Given the delicacy of the deck-if-you-slip top of the route, I'd almost suggest that the wiser course would be "reverse - remove gear - take a hint and come back another day when your footwork is better".

I just though of another route to add to the 'slab' grade debate - Wuthering (E2 5b).  Is Sunset Slab VS or HVS?  Is TPS HVS or E1?  Is Wuthering E1 or E2?  (It might actually be more serious to second than it is to lead if the leader takes the high runner in the cimney and then doesn't place the thoughtful extra cam right at the top.)

My judgement of this might be slightly out because (having looked back at my log 78-80) I see that I'd done it twice in the 2 years before I first led it. As I said above, huge difference if you're doing a true on-sight with no beta beyond guidebook description, so for a true on-sight I can agree with E1 - which of course is what the grade should be for.

But I do wonder how many do it on-sight and whether the UKC logbook stats - which indicate less than 50% of leads - is truly indicative. I think a lead like my son's, which was the first time he'd been on the route but where I gave him loads of useful beta (& encouragement) might be more typical and that wouldn't be "worth the E1" - and yes I realise it's a bit of a nonsensical concept to be "downgrading" a not on-sight ascent but I can't think of a better way (*) to express how much easier it is when not on-sight.

(*) - maybe E1 on-sight but an H grade headpoint - H-HVS?

Phew!  I can agree with you again.

There is a nut runner on the face on Wuthering as well, from memory. Hard E1 for me, or maybe mid E1 for some as a cany onsight leader can look at the route and work out they can reduce risk with a second belayer.

Traditionally, Wuthering used to be led with a sling runner on the big chockstone above, which is really quite high up and almost makes the moves onto the arete into being top-roped. With that gear I'd say E1 because although there's no pro until you get to that lovely nut slot in the middle of the face (unless I missed some or modern microcams have changed things), the moves from the arete to that slot feel ok and the rope is still ok to stop you decking (although I wouldn't fancy the pendulum).

If the high gear isn't placed on that chockstone (and opinions that this is cheating have been previously expressed) then I can see it being worth E2 because once beyond the arete you'd be in a much more serious position.

The route was always graded for the high side runner.

HVWGAFGOI is the grade.

Three Pebble Slab - bottom of the E1 grade?

Chequers Crack - top of the E1 grade?

So much for quantitative. Qualitatively (much more importantly?) they require very different skills and mindsets. 

Mick 

Remember arriving there and realising I hadn't the right size wire. (Only had a couple of wires and small cams didn't then exist.) Hadn't placed a high runner to get onto the arete. The ropes dropped down limply to my bored second. 

What to do? Something, quickly! Shoved in a wrong sized wire (which would never have held) and committed. 

When my much taller second came up, he could easily stand on one break with his hands on the next, pick his nose (ugh!), scratch his (well, you get the picture), etc, etc. But being little meant that it was much more committing. And memorable. 

Great route. Best name ever. Thank you, Edwin Ward-Drummond. 

Mick 

Great to read all these experiences; it’s on my list for my trip this Summer  

So would I be right in thinking that the best approach for my onsight (which would only be a flash, after having soaked up all the beta in this thread!) would be a morning bouldering on ever steeper slabs, followed by an attempt in the preferably overcast and chilly afternoon?

Next post from me about TPS either elated from the pub or from a Sheffield hospital bed

It was a rhetorical question really but fwiw I agree completely. 

Wuthering seems like quite a good route to compare to TPS as you get the gear, step up to stand in the nut slot and then have to leave the gear behind below your feet and make a couple of delicate moves feeling a bit exposed to reach the top.  Much more fluffable moves, but unlike TPS you're probably not going to deck out if you do fluff them.

I  don't think there's been any really useful beta beyond the guidebook description tbh.  It's a bit of a metaphorical open book, if you can read the rock a bit I think everything that's been said on here is visible from the ground anyway.

I'm pretty nesh, so would always take cool over chilly.  And we're all braver in the sunshine aren't we?  A cool, bright day would be nice. 

But if you're committed to a trip in the height of summer, it can get rather hot and sweaty (and midgey) at Froggatt I'm afraid - the crag is SW facing and sheltered from the prevailing Westerly winds by the trees at the bottom.  If it's a hot day, probably better to do it in the morning while it's still in shade.  As a warmer upper, maybe C.M.C. Slab (HVS 5a) with the side-runners in Heather Wall?

I mean I don't want to worry you or anything, but I once climbed through someone's ashes on Heather Wall. I'm sure it's entirely coincidental.

Good tip, thanks!

Sometimes I think people get a bit mixed up between scattering their loved ones' ashes and flytipping them.

Haha, anyone famous?

Yikes! Please be careful. 

Some good advice from deepsoup. If hot and sweaty, definitely leave it. Maybe another slab with side runners, first, as suggested? 

I think, with gritstone slabs, you've got to feel right. If it feels right, go for it. If it doesn't, no big deal. There are so many other lovely routes out there. 

Mick 

I'm not sure the weather makes a huge difference, as long as it's dry. You only need your hands for the (protected) crux move, and slightly warm rock is probably going to help your rubber stick on the worrying slab moves above. I onsighted it on a nice sunny afternoon.

I don't know that onsight makes a lot of difference to the difficulty. You're either confident on friction slabs, and have a cool head for the runout or you're not. You can see exactly what you have to do from the ground. 

Froggatt was my guidebook area. I watched hundreds on these routes. Chequer's Crack is often rather gruelling: a sequency, sustained, protectable, highball boulder problem to the break, with a VS jamming crack above. It's safe lowish E1 sustained 5b in my view as a true onsight/ground up; heading to 5c and up the E1 band with increasing polish.  I agree adjectival grades on safe and serious routes require different mindsets but they remain a nominal population average for climbers leading those grades. I usually only call on such quantitative definitions to call out qualitative nonsense on serious sandbags. I think too often posters here have little sensitivity for the onsight experience of current actual HVS/E1 borderline leaders and where that leads to a potentally dangerous sandbag I think it needs calling out..

I'd add I've done a lot of padding in the sun at Tuolumne and Joshua Tree: it certainly significantly affects my hand grip but much less so my foot friction. Still, you're right, cool dry days are always the best for grit.

"You can see exactly what you have to do from the ground."

I get what you mean but usually these slabs at Froggatt have shallow pockets or small edges that give more assistance for hands; pure padding is unusual on a route. It's adds a rare quality  to a classic.

A very Englandcentric question.

Apparently led the route around 10 years ago on a fleeting visit south. I don’t recall anything!!!! I remember better climbs from that wee raid south of the border during that weekend.

I don’t even recall whether it was indeed HVS/E0/E1. Or that it warranted stars. 

Well I have climbed on Scottish and US granite slabs and loved all of them. Maybe you had too many grades in hand to maximise the fun on 3PS?

I am not sure that is the case. I had great moments on VS and below in England that I recall vividly (admittedly often soloing but not only) 

Just that I think, my own opinion, TPS is massively overhyped.

Its quality as a route is irrelevant, the quality of the 'grade debate' is why it's been discussed on here so much. 

And the current thread is kind of nostalgic because it used to be a 'groaner' trotted out regularly on here until we were all sick of it, but we haven't done it for ages now and the subjects we're all sick of endlessly discussing these days are much more depressing.

It's happened to me more than once, maybe I'm just unlucky. I quite like the thought of being scattered to the wind off Stanage or something, but choose a windy day at least

That might be an understatement. I think that most people would regard repeated premature cremation as a bit more than 'unlucky'.

So the grade of Sunset Slab (HVS 4b) came up in this thread. I think it might be mea culpa on my part. I was having a cuppa with Jim Ballard in his shop in Matlock Bath. My mate Howard was with me so I guess early 80s. Jim had a (I can’t remember whether it was hand written or a dot matrix print out) copy of what would be the next Froggatt guide. I suggested that Sunset Slab be upgraded to HVS on the basis that there had been a couple of very nasty falls off it, and was equitable with TPS in terms of consequences albeit easier than TPS’s HVS 4c/5a. I can’t remember TPS grade in the manuscript but I’m sure it wasn’t E1. We were on our way from Chatsworth at the time, so also suggested upgrading High Step (E1 5a) and Price (HVS 5a) which Jim also duly changed. Different times 😳

Thanks, let us know the date and buttress and it’ll save chalking up for a few lucky ones

Get comfortable with just standing on smaller and smaller ripples and steeper and steeper slabs. Then if you get worried, that'll give you the capacity to just stop and compose yourself.

On TPS you could if necessary stand around for ages in several places waiting to be rescued with a top rope and on some of them you'd be quite happy to take the lead rope off and reattach from above. But hopefully none of that'll be necessary.

I can climb TPS so its got to be a HVS as I can't onsight E grades. I've climbed bolder and harder HVS routes.

Haha, been there, done that (top half of Moyer's Buttress (E1 5b), no small cams on the rack… ) - good to know, thanks!

Oh you'll be hundreds of times more comfortable stuck on TPS than on the top bit of Moyer's - comparatively there's room for a party🎈🎉✨

I was so stoked when I climbed three pebble slab. Remember a guy at the bottom telling me the top slab was the angle of a roof and I climbed quickly up it. Must have helped. Not sure about the grade, the top slab is pretty committing to be fair. 

I disagree again, Moyers has breaks. TPS you can escape left or refuse but once committed to the 4c padding TPS is very uncomfortable to stop and wait. 

Easier if you don't hang around too long on the top slab. A guy passing by shouted up it's easy like a roof slab and I darted up it ha.

Get yourself to the Etive slabs... lower angle but bolder still in grades to E1.

I'm thinking of the ledge after the crux and the bottom of the top slab that you step onto from that ledge before fully committing - and you can probably step back down to the ledge from there.

Once you've left that for the proper padding stopping does become difficult.

The breaks on the upper bit of Moyer's are hardly solid hand jams or jugs.

It's disappointingly easy and not bold benchmark VS maybe soft 4c.

The problem with TPS is it's only E1 if you fall off!

Crap like that could get someone killed. 

Mick 

I suspect it's E1 for an HVS climber as it's a bit scary, but HVS for an E1 climber as it's so straightforward

I tried C.M.C. Slab (HVS 5a) the other day and couldn't find the moves, which side of that left hand slab is it? I looked at the right and middle part, and couldn't see a HVS route up it, unless it's closer to the left arete? I bailed and did Ratbag (E2 5b) instead which is miles easier than what I was looking at on CMC! 

Rubbish. Grading is subjective

IIRC it's pretty much up the middle but to keep it at HVS you need to pop one or two side runners into Heather Wall, definitely worth E points (plural) without.

Also IIRC (but I'm not so sure about this, although my rock memory is pretty good these were a long time ago), the moves on Ratbag are harder but more obvious, you've got those pockets to aim for and pass on your way to the top. I remember the moves on CMC being purer slab moves with less obvious "holds".

Four Pebble Slab (E3 5c) is a completely different game. I remember after doing it on a top rope thinking that there was no way I was going on the sharp end on that.

Yeah on CMC there are some quite high pockets, but nothing for your feet, felt very committing to get established on the slab, unless I just need to stretch more and try to get a high step into one of the pockets. 

Ratbag you have the stiffish move to get established with foot in the pocket then is pretty steady, can go hands off most of it. 

I think that's the move high up on CMC Slab, where you have a slopey pocket, move up to get your foot in it, rock over and don't reach over to the crack, which is all too tempting.

It's pretty much up the centre if I remember rightly, no left arete.

Ratbag is pretty scary too, you feel more exposed and it's commiting on that headwall / slab, but I found the moves easier... which could be because I seconded it ha ha...

So why give yours' then? Why makes your subjectivity outweigh everyone else's subjectivity?

The (objective) fact is this: your grading is way out of line with virtually everyone else's - including mine.

I've done TPS at least 20 times. (It used to be part of my regular soloing circuit on the crag.) I've also led and soloed many hundreds of VSs. TPS never seemed your grade of 'VS maybe soft 4c'.

So I'm saying that, on other people's opinions and my own extensive experience of the route, your grading is bollox. Far worse however - it's dangerous bollox. 

Mick 

Well said. Personal opinion on a route grade is partly subjective but there are some quantitative rules in the UK grading system when combining adjectival and technical grades:  for the upper padding slab with a ground fall in prospect from 10m those moves would need to be 4a at most for a VS route. We have a wonderful grading system for onsight ascents that works perfectly from S to mid Extreme (where the vast majority of keen climbers operate) and yet too many climbers just don't seem to understand this. Yes, a very bold E1 slab feels very technically  and physically easy compared to safe one.

We could always know how most leaders experienced a route onsight by watching many of them and, if we didnt know them, talking to them to ascertain experience.

Never has a route in it's current condition and modern grading context for an onsight climber (right now) suffered so badly from a combination of hindsight grades and snobbishness from some climbers whom low E1 is a breeze.. Add in the HVS more logical finish back left and it becomes the most talked about individual route grade ever.

Heather Wall - HVD or Severe?!

I can safely say I've always had an E1 experience on it, but then maybe that's because I was expecting an E1 experience.

It's safe 3c/4a with a low spottable crux and low to mid VD above, as such it's really HVD in modern context. If the climber can't jam it will feel harder but we cant grade for gaps in commonly required skils or that would wreck any sense in UK trad grading. For a super experienced jamming bumbly it will feel like a standard VD. It's partly the reverse misuse that happens with 3PS and partly inexperience.

I can't recall a tenth of grade arguments that we see for 3PS.

When I did Ratbag the guide said HVS if you put gear in Tody's crack (maybe the current guide still says that). That'll do me I thought so I did.

I don't know if the pockets in the middle will accept any of today's cams, but IIRC it certainly wasn't an option back then, it was either gear in Tody's crack or nowt above the break.

Ant's Arête (VS 4a) is an example of a bold VS; it's quite soft at VS with maybe only 4a climbing but you would deck if you fell off it. To say that and TPS is the same grade is funny but ill-advised, as someone might believe it.

TPS has a pretty safe but solid 5a move (HVS in isolation) and deckable 4b/c at the top (could also be HVS in isolation). I think overall though it feels more E1 than HVS. 

As usual on here everyone's opinion is being taken far too seriously and it is quite amusing to watch 

I think a difference in style and a higher crux is an added adjectival factor for 3PS, cf. Ant's Arete. Once committed on the padding slab it's hard to stop and any panic can't usually be rested out on good footholds waiting for a rescue. It's also not trivial: I know a strong E2 climber who slipped off that upper slab and was incredibly lucky not to have ended up in hospital. The top is effectively a commiting 4c solo sequence... fine for those used to that but not for the average leader pushing into the E1 grade. Some people making other comparisons (eg California Arete in the past ) seem to me to be forgetting the E1 grade is a grade wide. A middling or upper end E1 4c might be noticably more serious (higher ground fall and/or worse landing).

Not so amusing if someone comes a cropper after reading your advice?

Mick 

Only a total moron would listen to me

I rest my case. 

Mick