UKH

Im getting back in to trad and want to replace my old cams (friends)

im struggling to choose between dragon cams and BD ultralights

A double set of BD cams is 1.2kg  and the equivalent dragon cams are 1.6kg so quite a bit heavier

The weight difference is about 5 quick draws but could I save taking 5 quick draws because of the extending sling on the dragons?

I’m hoping to get to Pembroke / Gogarth and climb between HVS and E3

what’s best?

Also it’s 10+ years since I climbed trad what are you taking on your rack to climb onsight at this grade on long 3* classic Pembroke or Gogarth route

Cheers 

Hexes and slings. It's the way forward.

ultimate rack?.. totems

BD ultralights are impressive and the reduction in weight would be noticeable (to both your rack and your wallet) particularly carrying a double rack! But if you have spare cash then they wont do you wrong. A nice light rack on your harness is always nice but you aren't dealing with big long walk-ins which is another advantage of having light weight kit. Dragons remain fantastic cams, are fairly priced and certainty worth their weight.

I guess you could mix and match. I've never felt the need to carry entire double sets for UK stuff, but if you are hell bent on doubling up then maybe the ultimate would be a set of BD ultras and supplement with totems for those tricky placements?

I'm not operating at the upper end of your range but I'm happy with a selection of  cams with 'conventional' wires and yes, nuts on string (someone laughed at my collection of 4 assorted nuts on dyneema yesterday, but I don't care!) Nuts still fit in loads of places at least as well as cams do, they're a 5th of the cost and much less weight. 

Nothing like the clanging from hexes dangling off you. 

Yeah those bd cams are pricey compared to the dragons 

I actually have a set of both, which I used to think was massively excessive but for big routes on adventurous seacliffs a double set is pretty useful. (I bought the BD ones after using my mates on the culm last year) My original set was dragons, they are still my go to cams, I like the extendable option and find the weight saving is lost if you are having to extend all your ultralights. Ultimately both are very good cams and it's a bit of personal preference. 

Are you planning on taking big whippers much? There was a post on MP that showed a cam failure due to the metal deforming:  https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/114941648/structural-failure-of...

I'd be tempted by them if 1) I was rich/sponsored and, 2). I was doing long, alpine multipitch routes where I was, 3) not planning on falling much.

For a standard trad rack my feeling is that they've sacrificed too much longevity and strength for lightness. 

And totem's are just better....

Double set of totems, BD ultralights for the bigger sizes. Set of dragonfly's. Double set of dmm offsets and single set of normal dmm nuts for long onsights. Some peenuts and rps thrown in there. Would be my preference 

Er..... nuts?

A set of hexes on tape, plus curvers, rocks and micros, all on wires.  Some slings and a few extenders. 

Barbeg

If not thought of the totem cams. What are the benefits of these apart from being able to load a single cam? Which I think is only for aid? 

They work better in flared or marginal placements, greater holding power etc. Totally unanodised lobes so a lot softer. Downside is definitely have to be cleaned every time they even sniff seawater.

My money is definitely on Wild Country Friends (slight bias I admit) but I find they have all the benefits you get from BD and DMM and with their hollow axles surprisingly lightweight especially when carrying lots!

Personally I find the shape of the lobes on totems fits a wider range of cracks (flared, shallow ect..) better the normal cams. I have heard it said though this is lost in the bigger sizes and they get a bit floppy. I wouldnt know as i dont have any big ones. I've got black and yellow which I find myself reaching for first over the equivalent DMM sizes.

Think there's a very thorough review somewhere on here.

Very spendy though!

'Totally unanodised lobes so a lot softer.' I heard this in a climbing shop recently, (not yours!) and it still sounds nonsense to me. 1) Ray Jardine said the notches on Friends were purely cosmetic, and just there to reassure the punters - the devices don't bite into the rock, or deform - they stay in place because of the pressure they exert on the rock walls. 2) If the lobes DID deform after a lob then they would only be good for a single fall, if they didn't deform so much they didn't manage to hold it in the first place.

I know the OP hasn't asked for advice about the WC equivalents, but I have to agree with Euan, they are the best, out of WC, DMM and BD. Extendable sling, no annoying blob of plastic on the sling so you can pull either loop through.

I’d recommend a set of dragons and a set of totems. That’s what I take these days. Not necessarily two full sets of course. However for an average E3 with decent sized pitches I’d take dragons small blue to gold and totems black to red or orange. Plus the 4 smallest dragonflies, unless it’s obvious that there are no small placements. You can also save a lot of weight on your QDs vs 10 years ago but the biggest saving will be not taking too many. That’s where extendable slings are great on the dragons. 

Totems will go in where dragons / BD won’t and wife versa so it’s better to have a set of both for versatility. I wouldn’t go so far as to say totems are the best, they are just different. 

I've got a motley selection of cams including two totems, I'd buy totems if I was starting over. 

I agree Rob, on paper it looks good, notches and skimming etc etc. It's the outward force generated that hold a Friend not notches on the lobes or if they're skimmed.

Having said that on more marginal placements (let's use slate as an example) a softer alloy will weld better than an hard anodised surface. Kind of like why Classic Rocks are way better than Anodised Rocks as they are softer and bite better. And why Brass Offsets weld nicely! just softer. Anodising does make the metal harder so if the rock is more friction dependant unanodised is, in theory, better.

Hence why Blue Totem basic will forever be, the best cam in the world on Peak Lime!

If your Friends are the old style ones (not the new Camalot lookalikes) and are not knackered, think about just buying one set of new cams; the old style friends interleave the Camalot sizes beautifully.

You don't have to extend them - all modern cams have a built in extender; it is just the Dragons have the option of extending them further if you feel it necessary.

I’m exactly with misha on this. Dragons, dragonfly’s and totems. Got you fully covered 

For trad, especially Gogarth and Pembroke you should have a complete set of long and flexible quick draws. Sport  quick draws will be too stiff and short, will increase rope drag and lift runners out. Take loads of slings too

I often find the 'normal' length of sling on most cams a bit short and need extending with a quickdraw, especially on big routes which might wander a bit or go over roofs and the optinal extender you get on Dragons (and a few other brands, i think my bigger aliens have them) really handy.  However, I  also have partners who find these a right faff so I appreciate not for everyone.

Thanks for linking that. However, reading it, the failure mode does only seem relevant for a specific situation for small BD lightweight cam sizes. It's not unexpected that most people using lightweights prefer them for the larger sizes.

Of course, but I think a lot of people extend them as default and so need to carry more quick draws than necessary.

Definitely slightly faffy, but I think if I were starting from scratch I would go for Dragons with the extendable extender having used a few other peoples', but I would still treat the extra extension as optional.

I'd personally go totems black-green and then red, yellow, blue in camalots. 

Camalots are bomber. 

Think wc stems are too long so dont feel as nice to place and walk more. 

I don't like the extra extendable slings though, so your opinion may differ if you like them. 

True that the specific failure mode was related to the small size, I still, however, won't be buying them as I want my rack to last more than 5-10 years (except maybe the gold #2 as my 19 year old original BD C4 really needs retired...)

There's also a lot of chat of the trigger wires breaking easily, and you need to send them to BD for repair.

I'm one of those people! I tend to think that the standard length of tape is too short adequately to protect the cam from shifting around in the average placement, and by default use extension (if available) or put a draw on, except in a minority of cases where the cam obviously won't twist sideways and the rope is travelling very straight from the previous to the next runner. It's only an extra 15-20 cm or so, after all.

Specific memorable experiences can influence one's default procedures. I remember climbing Lundy Calling (E4 5c) at Shorn Cliff and placing a cam in a horizontal in a bit of a hurry (without extra extension), before embarking on the bold 5c section above. I looked down and the sideways pressure of the rope had rotated the cam sideways, which put me in a very dangerous position. I often think of that when tempted not to double-extend cams.

.... admittedly, I use Dragons and Dragonflies, so I don't need extra draws in any case, the extension always being available

5 regular BD Camalots for me (silver to yellow).  A triple set of wires 1-5.  Double set of wires 6-7. Single 8-11.  Half a dozen assorted tinies.  Eleven assorted quick draws, a long sling and two short slings, two spare snap gates, and that's me done. 

Occasionally, I'll borrow a big blue or little blue Camalot from my partner, who says I take too little.  For the Strand recently (it's a 45m pitch, I think) I pushed the boat out and took three extra Camalots and some extra quick draws 

The thought of a 'double set of cams' fills me with horror.  Having steadily laced the Strand, I arrived at the top with a couple of cams, a quickdraw, a small assortment of wires (and most of the tinies),  two spare krabs and the long sling left over, having not felt short of gear at any point.

I don't do much on grit, and would probably use a big blue if I had one.  My theory is that UK rock is generally irregular, featured and fractured.  I might have already used up the right gear for the next obvious slot, but there's usually something else suitable nearby.  My partner will usually only prevail upon me to take a big blue Camalot if I can see a placement for it from the ground.

I am sure others will disagree - which is fine, but here's an alternative view.  Frankly, I'm not strong enough to carry the luggage I see so many people fighting with.  I also use a bandolier for the short QDs and the wires.  Cams on front at the left, longer QDs at the front on the right.  Everything reachable with either hand.

BD ultralight - I've had to replace trigger wires, yellow and blue - Needlesports had them in, reasonably straightforward, I'm a bit more careful ramming them into the rucksack now 

Top tip I stole off tradmaster Neil Foster: use the bag your harness came in to carefully pack your cams into before stuffing in rucksack, helps a lot in protecting the trigger wires and extending their life.

The softer metal on the lobes will reduce the likelihood of the cam pulling out in limestone cracks probably, but I would imagine that it is a fairly minor advantage.

Misread that as half a dozen tinnies. Now that’s a good rack!

That's what the nut key is for - they're good bottle openers!

Totems definitely hold better in limestone. I've experimented with placements in parallel sided pockets where I could yank Dragons out by hand easily, but couldn't budge Totems at all.

I think the difference is more geometry than hardness/softness of the cam surface, but I'm not an engineer so take that opinion for what it's worth

First off, is 400g really going to make that much difference. My whole Trad rack only weighs about 8kg and I can max pull up +20kgs and max hanging +32 kgs. 

Dmm have a cam servicing service that will restore your cam to it's best after it seizes up due to overuse. 

Dmms are made in Wales and therefore support an outdoor industry .

 Double racking cams is perplexing. I climbed a steep route last weekend and totally failed to find any decent gear. A lot of the problem was not being able to locate the right cam on my harness having loaded up my harness with everything I owned. I think it's better to rack up a small set of hexes alongside a single set of dmms and double rack the smaller dmm micro cams. Sea cliff limestone eats hexes but I guess other rocks aren't so hungry.

Hah! Duncan Critchley of this parish taught me that. There's quite some trad experience speaking between those two.

jcm

I carry a similar rack with a few more quick draws. We are of the same age and probably prefer placing a well seated nut to a cam. I would only take more cams if going to somewhere like Yosemite. Certainly for HVS-E3 in Pembroke East and Gogarth I wouldn’t see any need to double up - Range West might be different as it seems to have a lot more horizontal strata so more cams might be useful, in which case borrow a couple. Younger climbers seem to use a lot more cams (easy to place and expensive so best use them?) and therefore need long extenders, particularly on long pitches using single ropes. In my experience all cams can walk. If I’m going for a big one I’d much prefer to know my last gear was a well tugged nut than a cam that may or may not have walked a bit.

Unless I am on something I'm sure I am going to find easy, the thought of a single set fills me with horror. All it takes is, for instance, the key gear to be a uniform size break, uncomfortably far above the last gear, which won't take anything bomber and things would start to feel uncomfortably and unnecessarily serious. Just having enough gear to double things up for reassurance without worrying about running out can, for me, be the difference between success and failure - easily worth the extra wright. And then you might need one or two for the belay at either end of a pitch. As for racking, it is just a matter of having an organised and consistent system.

My default rack is 7 Camalots small blue to big blue and six old style friends 0 to 2.5. According to the route I might supplement with some Aliens or bigger ones or very occasionally more in the mid range. Nuts are Rocks triple 1 to 7 and double 8 to 10 plus a bunch of micros.

I know someone who carries their cams to the crag in tupperware boxes!

These sorts of post make interesting reading - most of us love a good gear discussion!

The problem is that most of the advice is skewed, because the majority haven't got the long depth of experience with lots of different types of gear, and climbers do tend to be down on a particular bit of kit purely because that's not what they've been using and gotten used to. It would be handy to have a special button which filters out all replies from people who haven't given all the options a fair trial

"I love the sound of a hex in the morning, it's the smell of victory " Colonel Kurtz

Edit: Go the DMM way as these are made in UK (not China like Wild Country, excepting WC's superlight ones) reducing the air miles. And they offer a more comprehensive repair service.

Sorry Wild country, I've had friend since rigid stem days (and rocks too), but I'm lured over to DMM these days.

Small size cams totems, large cams camalots. 

Indeedy. I's something I often thought when working in a gear shop - some less ovbious brands got rubbished, often when the naysayer had never actually used them.

For what it's worth I've fallen or aided on Flexible Friends, Mk 2Camalots, Mk3 Camalots, HB Quadcams, HB FlexiFix, CCH Aliens , Totem Basics, Metolius Ultralight TCU, Metolius MasterCams, Rock Empire Flex's and a Wired Bliss TCU. I've climbed a lot on Mk1 Dragons and Totem Cams too but can only remember weighting them in belays, not singly. So experience of either 11 or 13 types depending on whether you think a fall.bounce test is needed to count as experience.

And the answer is unquestionably Totem Cams (except possibly in the very smallest sizes where I still have a fondness for my Green Alien and Blue Basic)

I wondered if they were made in Italy since the take over but the current instruction manual says Taiwan - so Asia, but not strictly speaking China if you respect Taiwanese democracy! ;⁠-⁠)

And we've climbed together before at EGCC before you headed off to Devon!  Adrian...

I think this is fascinating - I seriously doubt if I could get off the ground with what you carry - but a lot of people clearly favour the more is better school of thought.  Most of the time, if I take something extra, I'll probably find a place for it.  Equally, if I don't take it, I'll find something else.  The exception is big breaks - for which I'll probably carry a big blue Camalot - it will probably be along for the ride, because my associate won't have left it behind....

Interesting... I stand corrected... thank you!

Does approx 1kg really make that much difference? I don't climb hard grades so don't have that much experience... 

1kg, in reality rarely makes a difference, but in your mind, most of the time.

IMO you're much more likely to push on if you feel light.

Not something I've ever done except at Fairhead and, recently, Kilt Rock, but may start doubling up on the more commonly used sizes (like Mischa I have Dragons and Totems).

For Wires I don't double up either, but instead take a range of standard wires, offsets and occasionally half-wires.

Those are places I might well triple up at least in the likely used sizes.

I see the sense of that, but I've always disliked Wallnuts and I just know where I stand with Rocks.

I'm with you on this Robert! I've backed off plenty of routes when I couldn't protect the hard bits but have never failed on a pitch because I had too much gear with me. I just looked up my old blog post to see what we took up Sydpilaren (n6-): pic http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4wZ5f_3h1-M/UiWzXzEBswI/AAAAAAAAGk0/DXMGpSciq6c/s... and post http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2013/09/stetinds-sydpilaren-south-pil... but you need to scroll down to find the gear bit. We didn't take triple cams but had double in Camalot/Dragon Purple to Blue and a bunch of wee ones too, plus I insisted on take two hexes on the basis Dave wanted to take his lucky nuts on cord. It was quite a lot of kit, but we got up and down in good order and did it faster than some other teams at the camp area when we were there. I led the crux pitches 10, 11 and 12 after Dave hurt his back, and they are probably as hard as any thing else I've climbed, I was quite please to have my belayer attached to 3 or 4 points belays and a good range of gear on me to place to let me keep my head together and actually enjoy the climbing.

It does to me!  If I feel 'burdened' I'm less likely to feel capable.  For what it's worth, I tend to be fairly good at knowing my limit in terms of grade and I climb right up to it.  I'm also finding that as time passes, the margins are more slender than they used to be.  The paradox, some would say, is that an increased likelihood of failing to make a move indicates that more luggage would be wise.  However....

I suppose it is worth noting that every extra kilo of cams I carry might be the equivalent of two kilos on a real waif.

Especially if a former waif is no longer quite as waif-like...

That sounds more psychological than physiological? But if you're climbing trad at your absolute max ability then I can relate to a kilogram making a difference. I've noticed my finger strength varies depending on how big my meals have been recently.. 

Good luck getting a can to stick in my local limestone crag. A well placed hex is preferable as it's less likely to dislodge the rock around the placement. 

For me it's a set of dmms dragons and a set of hexes. Plus a few bd micros cams but I rarely place them. Two sets of wires usually provides adequate protection in small cracks.

I have limited confidence using cams in limestone cracks in all honesty.

Actually forging creates firstly a layer of elongated crystal structure on the surface of the forging which hardens the surface and furthermore the anodising also creates a further minor hardening. The surface skim removes that layer to reveal the lower, softer material. The point here is that a softer material which dents more easily underload will increase the coefficient of friction and therefore generate a higher holding force than a harder material.

Furthermore if the surface of the crack is absolutely perfectly smooth you are right notches do nothing. However if there are imperfections like grit or rock crystals, they will engage with notches to create a mechanical interlock between the surface of the rock and lobe. Anything which can help prevent the surface sliding in its placement will help.

If it’s longer than 25m and harder than HVS I’ll usually carry a double set of cams from small blue to at least green if not red. I find myself way more likely to place runners if I’m not worried about being unable to protect the higher sections and trying to conserve gear. The NE coast of Skye is somewhere I’ll have a triple set for most routes, including doubles of gold and big blue. Never felt like it’s held me back by having the extra kit. 

A few of my partners are very good at doing it this way and being cunning, but they’re also a lot better at climbing than I am! 

Yes, definitely at least triples for Kilt Rock and so on!

Another reason for having plenty of cams is that if you have a key nut placement, it is often, if possible, a good idea to place even a poorish cam just above it so that you can have absolute confidence that the nut will not lift out. 

Swanage is one place where you can make a good case for hex-type nuts. However a red Totem in a parallel-sided roof crack held a 60' factor-one fall on Fish Supper (E3 5c). I have also personally tested a purple Totem in a polished pocket on High Tor. No other cam would have fitted and it took most of the sting out of a famous run-out.

Totems were designed by Basque climbers and seem the cam most likely to work in Limestone, their local rock. To echo most of the above, the first four totems are a must-haves and the green and red are good to have.

Yep absolutely, a good way of keeping the nut in.

My second set of cams are WC Zeros which I used to replace my worn out Totems. They’re great because they’re about half the size of a regular cam so they fit in shallow placements and pockets so much better. I’ve really come to appreciate smaller width cams as a result of using those and Totems over the years and would rarely get on a route without at least a selection now. Single axel design however so they have their limitations. 

Sure sometimes the rock is solid enough but let me counter with Buccaneer (E2 5b) where a meer 10m fall on a red totem dislodged one of the few 'solid' blocks above the cave. It remains to be seen if this effects the climb negatively but fortunately the lead climber on this ascent has another bit of gear on the other rope.

It's interesting that you think that a single axle cam has a specific limitation. I would assume you are referring to range. At that size, i.e. microcams, the difference is really very marginal. You'd barely see the difference on some models...

I was thinking more if they’re placed poorly, have seen several incidents of Totems inverting leading to bad accidents.

Is it possible for the same thing to happen with Zeros? I’d assume so as they don’t have any catches stopping from doing that? 

Having seen the cam tests on HowNot2, I was shocked at just how much the frame and lobes 'give'. If you've under cammed significantly, they could easily invert, especially in softer rock.

A few of my partners get upset when I overstuff my cams, but my I’d argue my life is worth more than their onsight tick on UKC? 

Also worth pointing out that totems have better holding power because of greater  outward forces. 

Good for flared cracks and pockets in good rock, bad news on expanding flakes and tottering piles of blocks.

I believe so, the trouble with cam stops on microcams is either you have to be pretty tricksy with your design, or you have to compromise primarily on the width of the unit. Metolius mastercams for example which have tiny camstops but are wider.