UKH

I thought this might be more useful! I’ll offer Anvil Chorus at Bosigran for starters. 

My first VS lead was Samarkand (VS 5a).  I enjoyed it.*

T.

* You may not 

Another one from down south:

Freedom (VS 4c)

catches a lot of people out

Some bloke requested the rope of shame from me at the top of Sand Buttress (VS 4c) so that might be a contender.

Eagle Front (VS 4c)

Brilliant VS, brilliant route, perhaps a terrible first one though.

Tatra (E1 5b)

Complicated by the fact that rockfall now means it's E1. 30 years later I still remember the shock to the  system. I thought I was going OK at the time too.

The File (VS 4c)?

The Crank (VS 5a)!

The Russian (HVS 5a), cos it was VS when I did it!

Three Pebble Slab (HVS 5a)

;p

Twistleton Crack (VS 4c)

Good value for a first VS

Phantom Slab at Polldubh. Brilliant route, no gear.

Must be lots of multi pitch contenders. I think my first multi pitch, and one of my first VSs was Ravens Edge on Cuneiform Buttress. That impressed the bejesus out of me. 

I’ve got a feeling that Sunset Slab (HVS 4b) at Froggatt was VS when I first led?!? It. Quite spicy at the time

Anvil Chorus and Eagle Front I'll give you, but things like Altar Crack and The File are straight up crack lines.  They really shouldn't be dangerous even if you fail.

Saliva (E1 5b)

Used to be graded VS when I first did it.

The Long Climb (VS) would be a special one to start on Tide Race (VS 4b) if there’s any of it left (especially the top pitch). 
As mentioned on a similar thread Eve (VS 4c) is a beautiful route but has a tendency to kill people so best avoided to break into the grade 

I was going to say Cleopatra on Buckstone Howe which was VS when I shook my way up it complete with massive Salutation hangover, but see it’s given HVS now, an upgrade I agree with!

Altar crack might be easy to protect but you'll get pretty pumped doing it! I think what makes it a poor choice is how intimidating it is, especially since you probably can't see the gear you're placing

Old Man of Stoer.

Botterill's Slab.

Green Slab, Gogarth

The Grazer (VS 5a) at Burbage North: perfectly safe, but a shock to the system for anyone who's avoided jamming so far on their journey to VS!

God, that brings back memories, that might have been the first VS I ever attempted. Certainly the scene of my first lead fall! 

I thought I would prove to myself how much better at  climbing I was by soloing it a few years back whitch was somewhat misguided. blurgh!

My recommendation is Falconer's Crack (VS 4c), which is an absolute shocker, like legal front but with in situ angry birds of prey, much vegetation and poor fixed gear.

Lone Tree Groove (VS 5a)

Rainbow Crack (VS 5a)

Lorraine, Tiger Wall, Tacitation in Northumberland. 

Haste Not in White Ghyll.

Isis and SW Diedre on Gower

Aero, Front Line, Crithmum and Twinkler in N&S Pembroke.

All the old Pat Littlejohn VS's at wyndcliffe.

Ledge Route (VS 4b)

Maybe it's OK once you commit. I backed off; decided it wasn't worth the risk of breaking my legs for a VS...

Isis and South-West Diedre on the Gower are HVS

Complete opposite experience for me, one of my first proper VS leads. With some medium sized cams and small wires it’s quite reasonably protected and the moves aren’t particularly difficult.

Sauer on After Crag at Polldubh on the other hand, bold and poorly protected padding with mossy holds. I remember being quite scared and I was leading E1 fairly confidently at the time! 

Not when I did them...

Another vote 'haste not' white ghyll 

Ah, yes, I see that when I did SW Diedre in 1969 it was given V-, and Isis, which I did in 1995, was still VS. So they must have been upgraded quite recently.

The Edge (VS 4c) at Loudoun Hill

(it you haven't heard of it, just check the photos!)

Most VSs at Curbar!

Fair enough. I soloed it on the basis of having been told there was no point dragging a rope up it and I had a couple of grades in hand. I don’t recall any nasty surprises as far as difficulty went, but it was c.3 decades ago.

Can’t think of Sauer (companion to the brilliant Kraut I’m assuming) but I’ve probably done it. 

Samarkand is a sandbag. Though not as bad as Cherry Bomb at Egerton. Tee hee. Sits back and awaits Lancs quarry fans armed with firebrands and pitchforks...

The Old Man of Stoer actually was my first VS (seconding, aged 12). I thoroughly enjoyed it. 

Caught me out twice! Went too high on the traverse both times, got there the second time and realised I'd f***ed it up again. It's looking horribly polished nowadays too.

I'll add any of the VS routes at Wynd Cliff. Great routes, and not sandbags, but definitely not for a first VS.

Sinew, Fibre, Cadillac, Klute, Vanguard, Pheonix: all hard won VS's. Half of them are HVS now and Pheonix E1 on here..

Sinew, Vanguard and Klute were HVS when I did them, and I thought well worth that. They would be brutal for VS.

Smugglers' Slab (VS 4a)

Isis was originally VS, very polished now.

SW Diedre has been HVS since early 90's, but if you take the continuation corner it brings it down to VS (rather than take the wall direct)

Seventh Veil, Chudleigh

I found Inkerman Groove pretty hard as well.

Anything above VDiff in Northumberland. 

Ahahaha.  This was my second ever VS, after Hargreaves' Original.  Twenty years on I'm still not quite over the experience.

Can’t mention anvil chorus without giving little brown jug a shout - definitely got some harder / more technical climbing for the grade! 

Fibre (VS 4c) has got to be one of the hardest vs routes I've done. Harder than Sinew for sure. 

Tiger Cub Special (VS 5a) is very hard, considering the difficulties are so short-lived.

I think Second Sister (VS 4c) might be the biggest handbag vs I've done on grit. Did Surgeons Saunter just before and that felt easier.

I'll have to confess I bottled out of Anvil Chorus (I wasn't climbing well, having not been climbing for a while in the mid-70s) and did the adjacent Venusberg, which definitely felt like a soft option/cop out, and didn't give me any trouble at all, even though UKC says 'one of the more testing VSs at Bosigran'

LIttle Brown Jug is a superb route, very sustained and varied, high in grade but an absolute gem. But NO way a first VS!

It was my first VS, and I was so focused on the intimating over hanging crack at the top that I sailed thru the crux without even thinking about it.  I’d give the old Tartra at swanage as my hardest VS ever.

Agreed about Second Sister - absolutely desperate. ... And the superlative Surgeon's Saunter is one of the harder HVSs at Stanage (the start has a 5c move, ffs!)

Aye, SS gets hvs in the bmc guide (which is fair) but someone at Rockfax was clearly of the opinion that it was ripe for a downgrade! The first half is unprotected and balancy and there is definitely 5a in there.

The Z crack at stanage.

Curving Crack (VS 5a) even worse!

Mushroom Wall (Sheeps Tor, Dartmoor) - short, sharp and quite tricky to protect but you’ll only break an ankle..

Canada Crack (Bowden Doors) - VS in 1981, my first lead fall and I think there used to be a fence underneath to make it more awkward.

Any VS in the 1980 Yorkshire Limestone guide.

Sunset Slab has had an interesting definitive grade history. It's started as a VS in the first series (1951), when VS meant something. In the third series (1978) it moved up to HVS- 4b. In the 'peak macho' fourth series  (1985) it went back to VS 4b and then moved up to HVS 4b in the fourth series (1991), whence it remained. I've seen way too many nervous finishes to it in poor style ( increasing risk of a slip), with a nasty ground fall in prospect. I still think it's almost certainly easier than quite a few less well travelled bold VS sandbag climbs on grit, especially on the Peak moors and in Yorkshire or Lancashire (given those we upgraded and having climbed less than half of the likley candidates). I can tolerate the odd safe sandbag but never a bold one.

Or a last one in my case!

- Eagle Front, Engineer's Slabs and Haste Not, The Coffin, The Shroud, Eliminate A, Square-Cut Chimney/Medusa Wall Combination, Sobrenada (now HVS in Rockfax)

- Direct Route (VS 5b, Dinas Mot)

- Central Crack (Brimham)

- Christeena (Wilton 1), Flingle Bunt (Wilton 1), Harijan (Trowbarrow)

- Aramis (Haytor)... or, even worse, Letterbox Wall! (VS 5b?! No gear and crystal crimping...)

All great routes (except Letterbox Wall), but all tough for a first VS!

Second Sister is solid HVS. It was finally upgraded in the 2007 definitive so there is no excuse for it still being VS anywhere. The logbook votes for this compared to the easy classic Popular End VS climbs (all voted midgrade) shows the logbook average votes can't be trusted.

Thrombosis is a tad easier Stanage VS brutaliser,  adjectivally (probably best as a low in the grade HVS), but again compare the voting average with those low grade VS Popular End classics.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/stanage_popular-104/thrombosis-102...

and another elsewhere:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/almscliff-373/z_climb-46

Yes, I remember way back finding that quite exciting!

Another couple at Wynd Cliff: Fibre (VS 4c) and Vanguard (HVS 4c) both about as long as single pitch gets, meandering lines, tricky rope work (actually, I think Vanguard might be up to HVS now).

It was when I led it, at least in Paul Nunn's selected guide. For some reason I chose it as my first VS lead.

I think Curbar has a weird distribution with a huge proportion of good VS climbs at the upper end of the grade band. We upgraded some old bold sandbags but Two Pitch Route is the remaining VS exception which I think is definitely HVS (the crux gear blocks the crux jam so it's either HVS 5a/b or HVS 4c depending on if you place the pro). It also has Bel Ami, a standard pleasant VS, and Tantalus, which is a contender for the best hardly-known VS adventure climb on gritstone (not recommended at all for a first timer but an absolute must for the very experienced VS leader). 

I did suggest to the mod after climbing it that they might want to adjust the grade but I'm guessing they are tied to what Rockfax say? 

I thought Thrombosis was hard (and a real jamming test-piece, as you need some competence with fingers, hands and fists) but personally thought it too short-lived to be worth HVS. You can place gear at pretty safe intervals from good, restful holds (even though the moves between are well 'ard). It's definitely harder than Lancashire Wall though, and probably harder than Agony Crack nextdoor. 

I upped my grade by simply buying On Peak Rock and using instead of the old Paul Nunn guide

Weird one that; looks like a juggy, 20 foot slab and turns out to be anything but!

I didn't

ie I struggled! 

I was a solid VS leader when I had a nightmare on Diocese (VS 5a).

Tacitation is one stiff 5a move off the deck then much easier so it would depend on preference/skill set whether that was a good or bad choice.

The Edge (VS 4c)

I was going to suggest that too

c. 1979 - Three wires (Clog 1,2,3), some Clog Cogs and some big Hexes and a Moac.  Hawser-laid rope and Bonaiti krabs with a gate strong enough to take your fingers off

I'd agree with the File - had a desperate time leading it many years ago

Went back and soloed it and wondered what the fuss was about when I'd learned how to jam properly

A friend's second VS lead so piece of piss, apparently (still not done it).

I never managed that... not even in my prime climbing E3

'Tough' doesn't necessarily make a route a really bad choice for a first route at the grade.  I'd suggest that many on your list would be a bad choice just because protection isn't always obvious.

Some great character building anti-recommendations so far. With a N Lakes bias how about Eagle's Nest Direct on Gable, Fifth Avenue (beside Eagle Front) Monolith Crack (Shepherd's, used to be MVS), Spinup (Lower Falcon), Sinister Grooves (Buckstone How) or Sobrenada (Eagle Crag Grisedale)?

It was my first VS multipitch route (leading the easier pitches). Found the exposure quite unnerving, while on earlier things like Agag's Groove I barely noticed it and wondered what Classic Rock was on about.  

Absolutely… HVS 4c for the offwidth then HVS 5a for the traverse… plus the rising tide cutting you off from your abseil rope and your main escape option being Flannel Avenue (HS 4b) which is a 30ft wet unprotected chimney ( also about HVS in my book!!😂)

Probably easier to ‘ escape’  up Bishop's Rib (E1 5b)!!

all these factors would make it a terrible first VS. 

There was a time when most Almscliff severes would not be recommended as first V.S. leads. 

The gnarliest V.S. selection in my experience used to be mighty Callerhues. Sandbag city!

yeah my first vs was Kinky Boots. I loved it but I’m not sure I’d recommend it to anyone else. 

There were certainly a few Almscliff VS that took a fight. Crack of Doom amongst others...

I think a really bad first vs is one you’d kill yourself on if you ballsup rather than struggle on a really hard well protected one!

Confusion (VS 4b) at New Mills Torrs is one I wouldn't recommend, it's crumbly and horrible, has birds nests in the crack and an awful top out, and that's before I get on to the pieces of rocks the size of microwaves which fall out of the route of the route to try and kill you or your belayer if they don't crash on to the mid height ledge first.

The Mousetrap (Summer) (VS 4c) was supposed to be a nice easy plan B when King Rat was wet- 5 pitches of enjoyable VS.

10 hours and 8 pitches later my partner comments, "I think we're the mice."

Definitely. Both hard, Letterbox Wall ridiculous!

Green Slab, Gogarth. In fact probably any route called Green Slab.

jcm

A winner?

Tabula Rosa at Langcliffe, originally given VS, now thoughtfully(!?) upgraded to HVS. ("Langcliffe's in Yorkshire, isn't it? My, what a coincidence...") 

On pitch two, the choice is brutal: succeed or die - and you'll take your belayer with you. With rubbish pro and holds snapping merrily, the notion of success seems like a sick joke perpetrated by an evil deity. No viable way back/off. 

My guess is that fewer people have led it than have stood on the moon. To give it a sporting chance, in 1972 Sheena Moffatt did it barefoot. "Boys, it goes!" 

Mick 

another vote for Haste not, White ghyll

Not done all these you mention Trevor, but definitely agree with Sobrenada and Sinister Grooves.

Ideally when it is damp for the full experience!!

How about Z Climb (VS 4c) ?

Never seems easy!

There's a choice between gear and ploughing on, unless you are quite strong / lucky / skilled.

Thread:

Broken Crack (HVS 5a) When did this get upgraded!?!?

VS the last three times I tried to lead it.!!!

Not sure it should be HVS, it's hard, but very protectable. I've rested on  gear a number of times ha ha ha

Another one from the ladies: the classic, Ploughshare in Lough Barra, Donegal. VS, 4c, hmm... will likely feel E1 5a, even with modern gear. 

First ascent by the legendary Betty Healy in 1961. Big boots, which would have been both wet and muddy. A rising series of ramps, each move more committing than the last. Well away from other routes, on quite a big, then relatively unexplored cliff. Little hope of rescue. The constant fear of climbing into a blind alley. Two peg runners on the 100 foot main pitch. (Her belayer, Padraic O'Halpin, took out the second by hand.) 

First ascents tend to be fraught affairs because of the uncertainty involved. Ploughshare was a very bold affair indeed. One of those routes which will always demand respect. 

Mick 

Lorraine and Tigers wall are certainly HVS in my book.

Hmm, I thought P1 was hard and P2 is out there but it’s safe and worth 5 stars. 

Apologies for not reading the entire thread - but has anyone mentioned Wreckers' Slab...?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/cornakey_cliff-693/wreckers_slab-2...

Absolutely great adventure, but maybe not the best choice for breaking into the VS grade.  (Great choice for breaking lots of other things though...mainly bones...)

...which is why they are genuine VSs, as opposed to HS really

The File ‘only HS really’?! A harsh school.

The reason people have historically been killed on Anvil Chorus is exactly that even though it’s a crack it’s not easy to stop and put the gear in properly because you’re laybacking. I agree though that to hurt yourself on The File or Altar Crack would take some doing.

The loose, untrodden, scary, sandbaggy ones have their place, but as a deceptively dangerous yet plausible choice Anvil Chorus takes some beating.

jcm

I'm just thankful i didn't quite get the full experience then haha!

A great VS to lead

Rift Wall/Anthropology on Craig Ddu at the bottom of the Pass is no pushover. Not a reccomended first VS!

What complete utter bollocks - there's plenty of gear. It's a great perfectly protectable VS 4c; one of the best at Polldubh. I used to use it regularly for teaching folk leading on their first day, so hardly think there's "no gear."

Laybacking on Anvil Chorus? I seem to remember great jams from which one can place the gear. I started the pitch in trepidation knowing the history and it’s always looked so intimidating from below but I didn’t find it too bad with jamming.

Well, the whole ‘if you can jam’ thing is a story all of its own.

jcm

Yeah that was one I had in mind actually. I certainly remember a lot of cursing!

Lion Rampant (VS 4b)

The climbing isn't hard but at the time I didn't fully understand trad grades. I'd seen someone protect it and thought I'd give it a go.

Turns out its micro cams (or a specific tri-cam) so I essentially soloed it. I still get reminded about it.

No , the File IS VS and is a good first VS target because a) it's Safe b) it's VS

Speaking of Northumberland, Long Layback Crack (VS 4c) at Simonside.. oof. 

Take a full rack and two 60 cms slings. Place one sling on the first flat hold on the edge and weigh it with half your rack. Place the other sling a bit further up, and weigh it down with the other half of your rack, climb to the top. Sorted!

I've just looked at my pictures, you've given the beta away! I think I've 4 hexes and our giant cam weighting one of them down.

It must be 27 or 28 years since I did it and I still remember quite clearly! My logbook suggests I had tried it the summer before but whimped out of going up the edge once on it.

Wreckers to me felt HS 4a, but VS is probably sensible. In the list of looseish climbs I've done it was unusual in that anything dodgy was easily avoidable for movement and ropework. A good first VS used to be for someone experienced with onsighting (and similar skills) at lower grades... in which case Wreckers, albeit not ideal  wouldn't be totally unreasonable. For a new outdoor climber there will be better HVS choices than Wreckers. 

Proposing The File for a first VS, in contrast, is just nuts, the grade isn't for flailing and hanging on gear, it's for an onsight (or worst case ground-up in good style). Climbers need solid VS jamming skills to onsight The File. Recommending it as a first VS lead will help trash it. Ground out cam slots are getting much more common on tough but safe VS grit classics. It's depressing that some experienced climbers are so self obsessed they have so little idea of an average onsightability and how that can lead to a lack of respect for the rock. The only exception I can think of for The File as a first VS is a strong indoor climber obsessed with jamming who has set up jamming systems, like the Wide Boys, in their cellar.

I did laugh not as my first hvs, that was memorable!

Frankland's Green Crack

I've never done Phantom Slab, but I vividly remember Tee (VS 5b) on my one and only visit to Polldubh over 10 years ago. I thought it was really tough for VS, with a hard sequence that I couldn't protect. Maybe the grading is generally stricter than the soft English stuff I'm used to?

Pretty much any of them at almscliffe are hard.  My first VS attempt was Traditional climb VS 4c where I had my first proper fall on to gear.  Most of them are reasonably safe though, just bloody difficult. 

Hmm, I'll take your word for it. It was over 30 years ago and quite a few folk had raved about it but said there was no gear. Like I said earlier I soloed it so wasn't particularly looking for placements.

Not exactly a the best method of assessing the protection possibilities then...

So did I! Just after the tree had disappeared!

I did it a quite an early HVS, and found it OK once I'd found the trick: a little, not immediately obvious fingerhold right up round the overhang.

My first VS lead was Whaup Edge at Eastby. Not recommend if you don’t like bold climbs 😉 Climbed it with my late father who was quite perturbed at the mid hight belay. Great memories.

Another good one to avoid - diagonal at Pollduhb

Easter Egg (VS 4c) I started up this years ago, not aware it had fallen down. Made the description somehow fit what I saw in front of me and gamely made my way up a worsening tottering pile of choss, throwing any useful holds down to the sea. Eventually lowered off as many bad bits of gear as I could optimistically place.  Not recommended.

Frankland's Green Crack at Almscliff was by some way the hardest VS I've ever attempted.  Anyone who recommended that as a first VS could not be called a friend.

Kipling Groove was only graded VS when I  led it in June1966 by the original mantleshelf way.

Another vote for Diocese. I had only done a handful of VS’s and caught it when the slabby start was still damp from rain the day before. A character-building experience for sure. 

Agreed. The traverse pitch tends to grab the headlines, but the first can be fairly serious if damp, and if not carrying a big cam for where the crack widens towards the cave belay.

Diocese may be 'chararacter building' but its a very fair VS.  

:yes diocese scary but protectable. A CHorus is less scary with the layback starting from an escapable ledge and very protectable if you have a grade or two in hand. BTW notorious over grader pat littlejohn gave AC HVS

Did you really mean 'over-grader'? I always thought he was rather the reverse, but generally got grades right. If you did mean it, can you please give us some examples of his 'over-grading'.

Later. I've just looked at his 'South-West Climbs' again, and I can't see a single route that I've done there where I disagree with the grade. It all seems spot on.

Check out Allan Austin soloing it on YouTube as part of the Rock Athlete series. Last time I did it the pigeon crap was so bad my mate claims to have caught a bug off it. The finishing moves are baffling Gritstone 3D weirdness at it's best.

Oh yes. It fits the bill in so many levels. Quite the most intimidating VS I can think of either and it's not even attached! 

Used to be the cover photo of Western outcrops guidebook. Rightly so quite an experience.

I assumed this was irony to indicate that even PL thought Anvil Chorus was serious.

I certainly assumed the same. I always mentally add a grade to a Littlejohn grade. Helps to keep my nerves steady!

Mick 

The scariest bit of AC for me when I was just getting established at VS was the traverse and mantel near the top.  I remember bloody mindedness and jamming got me up the corner OK.

What a daft thing to post.

Are you saying that VSs where you don't need to make the choice between gear and ploughing on, aren't "genuine" VSs?

Because I think we both know this isn't true!

Are you saying that VSs where it's not a choice between gear and ploughing on aren't "genuine" VSs.

Really

I think Graham is concerned that too many starred routes graded VS are really HS. Overgrading classics messes up the trad grading system and can add risk by leading inexperienced climbers to become overconfident.

Who are these villains? Messing up the grading system with their deliberate overgrading, and placing climbers in peril in the process!

Where have I said that ?  In fact there are very few VSs I can think of that fall into that category.  Anvil Chorus is one, the Russian (when it got VS) is another.  Not many, though.

The point more concerns what a climber should realistically be expecting when they tackle VS.  Its not unreasonable to expect a VS leader to have a level of judgement and have to overcome a level of difficulty and possibly some run out terrain - that is the nature of VS. I don't think pointing would be VS leaders at only soft touch VSs or borderline HSs necessarily helps them.

Not daft

I think he is just saying they're definitely VS as opposed to HS. A matter of interest to any climber. IMO

Ellis's Eliminate (VS 4c) 

I don't think for a VS you should expect to be making a choice between gear and having to plough on, or fall off, for most VSs. You implied this would stop it being HS.

I don't believe in soft touches, if you're going to move up a grade then you pick one you fancy climbing not one that's low in the grade to stroke your ego.

But most VSs, even older one's don't have you making a choice between gear or falling off, do they.

I know a number of people who've lead Alter Crack, E+ climbers, who've had to make that choice, it's particularly awkward because if your gear happens to be on the wrong side of your harness, it can be almost impossible to select it, stuff it in the crack and clip it, so people run it out, or more to teh point are forced to.

So AC isn't standard VS in my book, to use this to demonstrate it's not HS is at best showing off.

Us weak climbers happily make that decision at pretty much every grade.

I recall Black Slab at Stanage was rated only Severe and was totally without any gear until the advent of Friends!

I led it prior to friends and you could find gear on it, had to really look though. I do agree that it made it an intimidating lead for a severe.

Pigott's Climb on Cloggy.

John

Agree, Wreckers slab is a lovely romp and if you've got a good head on you to be above gear its a straightforward affair. I'd only give it VS as you have to walk straight through the parish cemetery from the Morwenstow carpark. Lesser humans might take that as a bad omen 😅

has anyone mentioned Gronk (VS 4c) ?? It's a fantastic climb but there is one airy traverse that even the guidebook says to put in an extra runner from the belay for the second. Tad run-out with a massive swing factor... but then maybe I missed an obvious placement.

I lead it almost entirely on tricams. It was still pretty exciting though on a windy day.

Any E+ leader struggling on Altar Crack was having a very very bad day. It happens to most of us on rare occasions but it doesn't mean the grade is wrong. It's a grade standard VS/HVS 4c borderline route that if you miss the pretty obvious half rest on breaks on the right of the crack, a few metres up the layback from the 'altar' (or finish the climb direct), isn't a VS/HVS route as climbed but even if you do that it isn't a top end HVS either. If you get it right, you only climb a couple of metres above comfortably placed gear at most. I'd add, the grade given presumably takes into account the possibility of initially overlooking the half rest (I had no part in the grading but it felt highish, but not top end VS to me onsight, as I got the half rest but I did try to finish direct until I reversed and opened my eyes to other possibilities).... in particular if you miss the half rest and are continuing 4c laybacking a fair way above gear on a VS (when VS is your limit) your experience should kick in and say reverse before you potentially risk a serious fall.

Reading the logbooks, a lot who struggle clearly miss the half rest on the right and/or the finish to the right (a finish the definitive and Rockfax both describe). The vote average on 200+ votes that won't involve distortions from new VS climbers (like you get on easy VS classics at Stanage) is top end VS and highish 4c.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/rivelin_edge-86/altar_crack-9740

I didn't say the grade is wrong, I said it was a bad choice for a first VS, like the thread title.

I think Alter Crack is easy to make a mess of, I remember the half rest, and trying to get gear off my harness which was wedged against the wall, eventually getting to a position where I could get the correct piece of gear, by then I was getting tired. In the end I left the gear and ploughed on to the top, very tired and shaky.

OK it might have been a bad day, but it went south easily and quickly, not your "normal" VS.

My OP was questioning the word "genuine", which seemed to be saying most VSs were now over-graded.

The half rest choices are a semi-bridge or out on the arete, so you seem to have missed it.

I'd say it is a very typical crack route of its type at the top of VS.....a benchmark even... other top end Peak eastern edges VS grit laybacks like Layback Crack, Beech and Downes are possibly adjectivally a tad harder (and the last two not so safe).... that's before we travel to harder graded areas on the moors or outside the peak.

If an experienced onsight trad climber, building slowly through the grades, had done 90% of grit HS classics in the Peak, my guess would be they would be OK on Altar as a first proper VS, albeit it would feel hard..... in contrast for someone recently outdoors it would likely be a terrible choice for a first proper VS. 

I see no mass overgrading of grit VS climbs...if anything they are harder graded on average than most modern grades elsewhere (some posters here have a mindset formed decades back). A few gritstone VS classics are still HS in my view....more than number of VS classics on grit (even with careful efforts to remove sandbags) should really be HVS. The vast majority are the right grade.

While out soloing this morning, an odd memory of Altar Crack dredged itself up from memory. Must have been some time in the '70s, a cold bivvy under the edge (have never owned an even half-decent pit). Got up about six o'clock and decided climbing might warm me. 

The first route was Altar Crack, with tendrils of mist swirling all around it. Spooky! But ever since seeing an old photo in an ancient guidebook ('Climbs on Gritstone'?) I'd always wanted to do it. Mind you, I seemed to recall a comment in the guide about aspiring leaders being sacrificed on the altar!

The crack was dank and damp and I was stiff and cold. I remember thinking, 'Maybe this isn't such a great idea, after all.' And then, without really meaning to, I committed. It was an utter delight, one of those unexpected joys. However I can completely understand being intimidated, fumbling for the wrong runner on the wrong side and the whole business rapidly going downhill. 

Have done it a couple of times again over the years. Probably much easier without a rope (not that I'm advocating this).  Must have been a real lead and a half before decent gear and (obviously) climbing walls. VS was once the gold star grade for a reason and Altar Crack seems like one where lack of respect will very quickly come back to bite you in the bum. 

Mick 

All this discussion of cracks beginning with 'A' reminds me of Argosy Crack (VS 4b), which would also be a cruel recommendation as a first VS lead.

Famously, it's 'too wide at the bottom and too narrow at the top'.  It's also, despite appearances, not well protected in practice.  By 'in practice' I mean that the crack at the bottom will obviously take big cams, but since by far the easiest way to do it is by a surprisingly awkward layback, they wouldn't be easy to place where they would do much good and I suspect a slip would lead to a real clattering, or worse.

The good news is that there's a good rest before the horrible bit, which is a really tight chimney/really wide offwidth.  In my youth I could probably have slipped into its depths to an easy exit.  Maybe I still could if I was only in a teeshirt and not wearing gear on a bandolier... There is one potential small wire placement if you can reach it (I couldn't) and happen to be facing the right way round but, otherwise, climbing it on the outside is truly desperate with the real possibility of a ground fall.   

I'm pretty sure I did do it back in neolithic times but most recently I had to ignominiously beg for a toprope.  Even more depressingly, I didn't regret it.

Did that on a wet/damp August day back in 1985 - my log says "Off-width chimney/crack; not well protected at the crux", preceded by Keeper's Crack (VS 4b) and followed by Inch Crack (VS 4c) and Little Innominate (VS 5a).

Basically, we'd got pissed off with wandering around getting pissed on and decided to do some routes regardless of the weather - a bit of an off-width and jamming afternoon - but very satisfying to still get something done rather than giving in.

This was of course before there was a climbing wall around every corner to escape to as soon as a raindrop appeared, even before The Foundry IIRC.

Edit: funnily enough, I've never really felt tempted to go back and do any of those 4 routes again.

I've also had a battle with Argosy Crack (VS 4b)! The bottom was fine from memory but from being sort of wedged in the offwidth I placed the small nut with much struggle and decided to go for it, channelling my inner wide-boyz, only to immediately knock out the RP with my own shoulder before squirming terrified to the top! Definitely not a great first VS.

Lorraine the Queen of groundfalls!  

I remember climbing the top part right in the jaws of the chimney and found it frighteningly unprotected and run out for a VS but maybe I should have been deeper in. The far-too-short straight-sided offwidth section lower down is entertaining to try out lots of different techniques on though.

Which was exactly my point.

how does https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/craig_yr_ysfa-530/mur_y_niwl-29164 rate? sounds easy with a 'walk along the ledge' without context?

Mur y Niwl isn't a great first VS - one big reason being its multipitch and so you never quite know whether you've led the VS bits or your partner did !

Mur y Niwl - I thought every pitch was VS! Now graded HVS I understand

The hand traverse could be quite scary if you are seconding. In the 1980's a female friend of mine lead the climb and was seconded by someone much heavier than her and he was wearing Super Guide boots. He managed the traverse without a problem, but it would have been "Interesting" if he had fallen off.

Agree its not an easy climb anyway - but I hope it's still 'only' top end VS.

a memorable day out for bumblers near their limit ..

https://dogtanian.org.uk/mur-y-niwl.html

My first lead , the second time I was climbing was Ardus cos my pal who was introducing me to climbing couldn’t do it, this was followed by a lead of Brown Crag Wall in one pitch with two runners. Wearing woolies sannies, of course. Good job ukc did’nt exist in them that days😀

Rhapsody E11 is a really bad choice for a first VS and my terrible recommendation. 

Pleased to see Z Climb https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/almscliff-373/z_climb-46 getting a few mentions. I'd done most of the Almsciffe starred VSs and a few HVS when I decided to do it for the first time as a slightly cheating warm-up for Z Climb Eliminate, was my bright idea. Got up it, sort of, but it was very clear who was boss and that no E1s were getting climbed that day. Funny because there are no actual hard moves, in contrast say to Pothole Direct, https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/almscliff-373/pothole_direct-102  , which may indeed be VS but stops a high proportion of actual non-boulderer VS leaders 1m off the deck. 

I think I'd rather do Z Climb Eliminate (E1 5b) as a warm up for Z Climb (VS 4c) !

As I recall (long time ago) Pothole Direct is really just a trick move. Was once a favourite solo. Once you know the move - a funny jam, if I remember correctly - it's a total doddle. 

Mick 

...an upside down one I very vaguely recall? And/or fight and swear. So actually a great first VS: safe as houses and hours of entertainment for onlookers 

Yes, IIRC, once you'd worked out how to do it it came down to about v diff.

Again... compare the average logbook grade votes for brutes like Z Climb and soft touch Popular End VS climbs like Inverted V, Straight Crack or Heather Wall. Goodness knows what would happen to those who thought those Popular End routes were above average for a VS, if they tried Z Climb.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/almscliff-373/z_climb-46

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/stanage_popular-104/inverted_v-103...

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/stanage_popular-104/straight_crack...

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/stanage_popular-104/heather_wall-1...

Another vote for Diocese. Mind blowingly good route, but would be terrifying if you’d never climbed the grade. 

'Toil and Trouble' in The Cauldron at Pembroke.
Not overly difficult, but definitely not a route you would recommend as a first VS.
Toil and Trouble (VS 4c)

Even today Z Climb is put near the bottom of the VS category in the Almscliff graded list. (In the old days, of EBs and no cams, it was regarded as very soft compared with the classic VS's, such as Demon Wall, Overhanging Groove, and Great Western.)

I first did Wreckers in 1980 (IIRC); then it was quite an experience, with lots of vegetation and loose rock.  I've done it twice subsequently, and it's been interesting to see its evolution into quite a reasonable, not too loose route that shouldn't stretch a solid VS leader with multi pitch sea cliff experience too much.  

Amongst other routes mentioned in this great thread I'd go back to Twinkler (Trwyn Llwyd, St Davids), just to say what a fantastic, but underrated, route it is.  It was VS when I did it, I didn't think that was unreasonable, despite its subsequent upgrade to HVS.  The rock is solid gabbro and the gear is fine, but it has stunning positions, and would be hard to escape from, so probably not ideal as a first VS.  But I think amongst the finest mid-grade sea-cliff climbs in England and Wales; ought to be better known.

I've tried and failed to find that cliff once and found and bottled it another time as a big sea and wind was running. I don't know if I've ever seen a crag/approach as intimidating!

But aren't Demon Wall, Overhanging Groove, and Great Western all HVS now? Or am I missing something - always possible!

Whatever the grade, you always seemed to get full value at Almscliff, though I'm guessing cams must have made things more amenable. 

Mick 

I said "in the old days" (when Very Severe in Yorkshire meant what it said - in old English)!

Indeed!

Mick 

I don’t think it ever “meant what it said” because quite obviously what climbers find “very severe” or otherwise depends on ability and experience: that was just as true decades ago as it is today. I don’t suppose Joe Brown often had a “very severe” experience on a VS. There’s been a slight recalibration, that’s all. VS etc are just handy labels for tiers in a system - no point taking them literally. Except if you’re part of this seemingly endless grumble about “grade creep”  - change the record, I say. 

No, far from it. I think there is an unnecessary amount of discussion about grades nowadays, in the UK at least. I actually liked the attitude in the old days, which was that the grades were (obviously) a pretty rough guide, so one had to be ready to find the routes surprisingly hard or easy. Another good thing about the old Yorkshire grit and limestone grades was they made everywhere else seem relatively easy for the grade!

Fair enough