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I'm bored out of my brain, so how about a good old-fashioned grade discussion?
I want a list of classic E2s and E3s to work my way through in the Peak, as I'm sure many others do, because the centre of the Universe is Sheffield, at least if there are travel restrictions. I propose a graded list of excellent Peak routes at E2 and E3. The method can be this:
- Copy and paste the previous list.
- Add routes in the place where you deem they should be into the list.
- Don't look at the guidebook graded lists because that's boring; just how it felt to you.
- Let's start with 3 stars and possibly no controversy.
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In reply to Cake:
Bored so I'm going to play! I haven't actually climbed a huge amount in those grades in the peak but here's my additions
Archangel (E3 5b)
Time for Tea (E3 5c)
Foord's Folly (E2 6a)
Suspense (E2 5c)
Delicatessen (E2 5c)
Elder Crack (E2 5b)
Brown's Eliminate (E2 5b)
In reply to dinodinosaur:
Oh yeah, San Melas! I really want to do that. I hope Scoop Wall isn't really that hard, as I want to do that too
In reply to dinodinosaur:
For info, I thought Alcasan had a harder move on it than Scoop Wall... similar overall grades?
In reply to Cake:
The thing about scoop wall is it's really well protected so worth a go if you are going well!
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In reply to Cake:
The Swan, Commander Energy, Appaloosa Sunset, Great Slab, Browns Elininate, Eldar Crack, Stormbringer, Regent Street, Billy Wizz, The Rasp, Wuthering, Archangel, Boothill, Fernhill, 5 Finger exercise and Darius.
Post edited at 09:19
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In reply to Simon King:
I did them a year apart and I did scoop wall first. It felt harder to me because it's quite steep and pumpy, where I thought alcasan was more vertical and techy/crimpy.
That said I did alcasan at the end of a season and I felt I was climbing really well so that may have something to do with it!
In reply to shickading:
They're not in order are they? I could believe that The Swan is top, but not that Darius is bottom.
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In reply to Cake:
TBH honest, until we can see if Graham Hoey has included a graded list in his soon to be published guide the most consistent graded list I've seen is still Chris Craggs' effort in Rockfax Peak Gritstone East.
Despite mixed success with various routes and a potential debate about some grade boundaries after 20 years, I've never really found anything in that list that I could substantially disagree with. Pretty much everything else I've ever seen has been pretty mediocre and inconsistent in comparison.
In particular, the attempt at a crowd sourced graded list in the first edition of Eastern Grit was an unmitigated disaster.
As such, I think any attempt at a 'concensus' list is just a poor idea and the best option is always going to be one compiled by an individual with decades of climbing experience who has climbed every route, in many cases, multiple times.
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In reply to Mark Stevenson:
> TBH honest, until we can see if Graham Hoey has included a graded list in his soon to be published guide ...
Rather than a graded list of climbs, maybe we need a graded list of 'Selected Grit Climbs In The Peak District' guidebooks.
How many are we up to now? We have the Wired guide, Pete O'Donovan's 'True Grit', various RockFax efforts, the forthcoming one you mention above, and maybe (?) others. A crowded market.
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In reply to dinodinosaur:
Quietus (E2 5c) (only up here cause I never managed it, even after a rest)
Darius (E2 5c)
Archangel (E3 5b)
Five Finger Exercise (E2 5c)
Great Slab (E3 5b)
Censor (E3 5c)
San Melas (E3 5c)
Time for Tea (E3 5c)
Regents Street (E2 5c)
Scoop Wall (E2 5c)
Foord's Folly (E2 6a)
Fern Hill (E2 5c)
The Rasp (E2 5b)
Suspense (E2 5c)
Delicatessen (E2 5c)
Elder Crack (E2 5b)
Alcasan (E2 5c)
Desperation (E1 6a)
Wuthering (E2 5b)
Brown's Eliminate (E2 5b)
Tower Face Direct (E2 5b)
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In reply to Mark Stevenson:
> In particular, the attempt at a crowd sourced graded list in the first edition of Eastern Grit was an unmitigated disaster.
> As such, I think any attempt at a 'concensus' list is just a poor idea and the best option is always going to be one compiled by an individual with decades of climbing experience who has climbed every route, in many cases, multiple times.
Of course. It boils down to the being no sensible answer to the question "which is harder, Quietus or Great Slab". They required completely different skills.
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
Neatly illustrated by your list, which largely seems to reflect my rankings, except for Five Finger Exercise appearing so high up. I'd put it nearer the bottom and certainly under Fern Hill. Oh well, if we didn't have grades to analyse, what would we do in lockdown?
In reply to Derek Furze:
> Neatly illustrated by your list, which largely seems to reflect my rankings, except for Five Finger Exercise appearing so high up. I'd put it nearer the bottom and certainly under Fern Hill. Oh well, if we didn't have grades to analyse, what would we do in lockdown?
Fern Hill's a weird one. I've cruised it, I've struggled on it, and I've failed on it, I think in that order (oh dear!).
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In reply to Derek Furze:
> Neatly illustrated by your list, which largely seems to reflect my rankings, except for Five Finger Exercise appearing so high up. I'd put it nearer the bottom and certainly under Fern Hill. Oh well, if we didn't have grades to analyse, what would we do in lockdown?
I had to fight harder for Five Finger Exercise than both Fern Hill and Boot Hill!
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In reply to Mark Stevenson:
> I think any attempt at a 'concensus' list is just a poor idea
This is just for fun, though
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In reply to Cake:
I've only joined the thread to sneakily look for soft-touches.
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In reply to Shani:
Oh well, it just goes to show how subjective it can be! I think I've done them all twice (at least), but always thought that FFE was the most straightforward. Better get on it again - probably due a right good kicking now!
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Ditto. Hard to get started iirc, but not bad thereafter, though probably needs some arms. It's been a while...
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> Of course. It boils down to the being no sensible answer to the question "which is harder, Quietus or Great Slab". They required completely different skills.
The long, long established UK approach has always, in reality, been to completely ignore any pretence at actually grading for strict "onsightability" for such routes at the extremes. Routes that are well known to be super safe have always been graded extremely conservatively and routes with real potential for serious injuries have always been graded very liberally.
As such, Quietus has always made sense at upper-end E2. In reality, most E2 leaders have little chance of getting it onsight but it's a perfectly reasonable route for E2 climbers to have a worthwhile attempt on.
Equally, Great Slab is not unreasonable at at lower end E3. Plenty of E1s are actually harder to solo or top-rope, but giving it E2 would just seem a bit harsh given the seriousness.
All that is despite the fact that I found Great Slab straightforward but I ultimately flailed bloodily and unsuccessfully on Quietus and I don't think that is particularly unusual.
It'd certainly be more "logical" if Quietus was E3 and Great Slab E2, but that would require changing 50+ years of ingrained thinking about the relative merits of strenuousness and seriousness within UK trad climbing.
As long as the relative grading of similar routes is self consistent, I think most of us can probably live with near solos being slightly over graded and routes with "gear at your waist" cruxes being a bit of sandbag...
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In reply to Derek Furze:
> Oh well, it just goes to show how subjective it can be!
Absolutely. And while we're at it let me say that Quietus is harder than Pebble Mill, whilst the crux of Pool Wall is the bit it shares with Suspense!
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In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Interesting. I completely disagree with your view on the comparative accuracy of the graded lists and your view on grades. In particular the latest Eastern Grit is based on counting votes except where Chris disagreed with grade votes and just changed grades. All the other most recent guidebooks are better IMHO.
UK adjectival grades take into account onsightability AND seriousness of failure. To me looking at a range of grade standards across the UK and average modern skill sets of climbers at those grades, Great Slab is mid E3 (for a delicate and unusual move with serious prang potential) and Quietus is easy E3 (for battling effort). If you succeed on the technically easier and not very sustained Great Slab of course the climbing moves will have felt easier, that's how boldness should be dealt with by adjectival grading. That so many climbers don't 'get' this shows that UK trad adjectival grading is never to be entirely trusted. Everyone experienced in their local area knows which routes are an easy tick for the E numbers and those which are given a grade below but are harder to onsight because they're desperate for the grade. Also which are the easiest big number headpoint scalps (not many chose Great Slab!) and. Sentinel Crack or Masochism are much better examples of the battling extreme grit sandbag than Quietus.
I do think it's likely Graham's graded list (if he has one) will be the one in the lower extreme bands that I would regard as the most accurate yet, as he is one of the most experienced Peak grit climbers and has climbed them all, understands grades and watched many people try to onsight them (the reality of how things are climbed onsight often dispels common grade myths). He has certainly earned the right to publish something he has worked on for decades.
Post edited at 15:00
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In reply to dinodinosaur:
Also bored, so I'll say that of all those Desparation is by far the hardest (caveat that I've not tried Foord's Folly or San Melas). I've said it's undergraded on here before and been roundly shouted down, so I expect nothing less this time
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In reply to Fellover:
I'm a bumbly really but flashed Desperation seconding it. I think it is getting harder though with tr and highball ground-up traffic.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Nice one - clearly less of a bumbly than me! I've failed on it on two separate occasions, once on second shortly after I started climbing when failure was expected and subsequently multiple failed attempts on the same day on lead and on second when I (mistakenly!) thought it would be pretty ok. That second time I feel like I had a pretty good grasp of what Stanage E1 should feel like as I did all the other routes (bar a couple of the routes now listed as boulder problems) in this Stanage E1 challenge ticklist https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=443 the same day (well 24hr period, it was an evening and a morning/afternoon).
I reckon that if you took it to Ardmair or Reiff and put it at the top of the crag with 15m of straightforward, non pumpy VS-E1 climbing underneath it it would get E4.
You may well be right that it has got harder due to toprope traffic. I'm afraid I'm a guilty party in this respect as I definitely flailed on it a bit the first time, unsuccessfully trying to follow a stronger leader.
Post edited at 15:31
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In reply to Cake:
Where does Black Hawk Bastion sit in the list? It seems to flit between E2 and E3 in different guides. Maybe because it's a lot easier for short people than tall people?
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In reply to Fellover:
Admair is weird... grades seemed a bit random sub E1 and being steep can feel fairly tough unless you have fabulous sport fitness (not as random as Stac Pollaidh though which has some massive sandbags and some pleasant classics!). Reiff is a bit more consistent but generally very soft touch for the UK: standard YMC grit VS would be low E1 at least at Reiff... I've climbed quite a few E1s in the far NW that I'd give VS.
Grit can be very conditions dependent... are you sure you tried Desperation on a nice cool day?
In reply to Offwidth:
> Grit can be very conditions dependent... are you sure you tried Desperation on a nice cool day?
Are routes graded for “ideal” conditions or “typical” conditions?
In reply to Martin Haworth:
Does “ideal conditions” include a 2m deep snowdrift beneath toy route?
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In reply to Martin Haworth:
I'd say typical good conditions for punters (red Rockfax band), where it matters, otherwise you can't fairly compare friction dependent use to other styles (especially for bouldering). Stanage can be absolute hell on a windless hot and humid summer day with light cloud.... shit friction and midges driving you mad. Alternatively on a sunny summer evening with a light breeze, a couple of hours after rain, friction can be typical good and the climbing delightful.
Post edited at 18:51
In reply to kevin stephens: I think I’d need a 6m snowdrift for The Toy (E1 5c).
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In reply to Offwidth: If grades are based on UKC votes, or a forum thread, then you can be sure that not everyone contributing will have climbed the route in ideal conditions. Therefore, anyone doing a route in “perfect” conditions should find the route easier than the consensus.
Ive always assumed that Welsh mountain routes are graded for a few wet patches, and Yellow Wall(Gogarth South) for much warmer than expected conditions.
In reply to Martin Haworth:
The Toy should be E2 really but it's actually OK at the top if you spot the not so obvious sequence.
Volunteers to help me re-check every HVS and most E1s on Curbar were surprisingly hard to find.. my pal Liam deserves much thanks (but it put several grades on his best onsight).
In reply to Cake:
I don't know about Black Hawk Bastion, but I know I've failed on it thinking it looked alright for E2. I am 6 feet tall. I can't really imagine it's harder than Foords Folly, even so.
I'll add one more for now, Gumshoe. Easy because I happened to have the right equipment on the day. Brown's Crack at the same crag, on the other hand... well, I can't vote for that one either because I haven't touched the top holds.
Darius (E2 5c)
Archangel (E3 5b)
Five Finger Exercise (E2 5c)
Great Slab (E3 5b)
Censor (E3 5c)
San Melas (E3 5c)
Time for Tea (E3 5c)
Regents Street (E2 5c)
Scoop Wall (E2 5c)
Foord's Folly (E2 6a)
Fern Hill (E2 5c)
The Rasp (E2 5b)
Suspense (E2 5c)
Delicatessen (E2 5c)
Elder Crack (E2 5b)
Alcasan (E2 5c)
Desperation (E1 6a)
Wuthering (E2 5b)
Brown's Eliminate (E2 5b)
Tower Face Direct (E2 5b)
In reply to Cake:
This would be my rough list of the best E2s on Peak gritstone taking grades from the BMC guides in a rough order of difficulty. It was going to be a list off 100 but there is space for a couple that I think are likely to be ace but haven't finished or tried yet for another time. At the top the cruxes on the bouldery style E2s are substantially harder than bolder but easier climbing E3s and at the bottom there are a few desperate E1s and probably even some HVSs that are much more physical to complete. In the middle many of the routes are subjective to in style to put in a scientific order. My list is probably skewered by my strengths and weakness however having climbed (led or soloed) all of them I think I have a fair knowledge of the grade in the area to make a stab at this.
ps I don't think a couple of hard yet completely protected moves over a roof on Quietus make it very top end E2 let alone E3. It is still easier than Centaur (E2 5c) or the excellent and under climbed Trojan (E1 5b) neither of which would warrant E3 in the same style of some steep awkward jams.
Midshipman / Plain Sailing (E2 6a)
Unidentified Flying Object (E2 5c)
In reply to Martin Haworth:
On UKC grade votes I've always been of the opinion they can be very useful to highlight sandbag graded routes on popular crags and help resolve borderline grades. Yet I've also stated for years the position of the average within grade bands is clearly distorted by inexperience, ability demographics, conditions and known psychological biases. Easy VS classics at Stanage (some of the easiest VS classics on grit) nearly all come out mid grade on average votes.... routes that are much easier than mid to high grade VS grit classics where vote averages are similar but adjectival difficulty is noticably higher (esp. Moorland, Roaches & Yorkshire). A few classic grade vote averages are just plain wrong (Land End Long Climb is undeniably HS on that top wall). It's why I prefer the grading approach of other guidebooks, where grades are usually based on collective experienced input in good conditions, especially now many more lower grade climbers are involved. I can get good confirmatory information from UKC on the logbook comments of climbers I know and trust.
Post edited at 19:58
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In reply to Graeme Hammond:
I think you are slightly wrong on safe but tough routes with tricky to spot sequences you hit at the top, like Quietus. E for effort is 'a thing' onsight as half rests and tactics can be honed in a headpoint. Compared with average climbs across the UK it seems low E3 to me (and others I've spoken to). However arguments about a small fraction of a grade band is really just fine tuning. Most BMC climbs at the top of the grade in definitive graded lists are harder adjectivaly than the easiest in the next band up.
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
Admirable list of ticks, Graeme!
The one that jumped out at me most was Billy whizz up at the top of E2. I found it fairly straightforward, whereas although I did manage Insanity onsight, that one was near my limit.
In reply to Cake:
Insanity is thin hand jams that only goes on for a few moves and the difficulty is probably affected by your hand size or jamming ability, suits me better. Billy Whizz has a tough crux right at the top after a substantial amount of climbing for grit which is easy to get wrong when pumped on small flat holds which whilst it is not a particular strength of mine, there can't be many people who would argue it is low in the grade and some consider it E3 (I don't).
In reply to Cake:
A few more easy ones:
> Darius (E2 5c)
> Archangel (E3 5b)
> Five Finger Exercise (E2 5c)
> Great Slab (E3 5b)
> Censor (E3 5c)
> San Melas (E3 5c)
> Time for Tea (E3 5c)
> Regents Street (E2 5c)
> Scoop Wall (E2 5c)
> Foord's Folly (E2 6a)
> Fern Hill (E2 5c)
> The Rasp (E2 5b)
> Suspense (E2 5c)
> Delicatessen (E2 5c)
> Elder Crack (E2 5b)
> Alcasan (E2 5c)
> Desperation (E1 6a)
> Wuthering (E2 5b)
> Brown's Eliminate (E2 5b)
> Tower Face Direct (E2 5b)
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
I failed ignominiously on Insanity (well had to have a few rests) Billy Whizz seemed loads easier. I onsighted Easy Picking (when it was a 6a) but it took me 3 attempts to get Fern Hill. (Desperation is about 5b if you're 6' with a +3 ape index 😉)
In reply to Andy Hardy:
> (Desperation is about 5b if you're 6' with a +3 ape index 😉)
I can agree with that! The last time I failed on it my 6'5 partner did it instead.
In reply to Offwidth:
I agree that both Ardmair and Reiff are definitely soft, it helped my hypothetical 'Desperation a bit higher up = E4' scenario seem more realistic I picked them because they reminded me a little of the grit. I just mean to say that if Desperation had 10/15m of easy climbing below it then I don't think anyone would argue with it being graded more highly.
I probably haven't tried it in optimum conditions to be fair, but I stand by my opinion that it's outrageously hard at E1
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Back on topic I'll put in Double Scotch near the bottom and Saville Street near the top.
> Darius (E2 5c)
> Archangel (E3 5b)
> Five Finger Exercise (E2 5c)
> Great Slab (E3 5b)
> Censor (E3 5c)
> San Melas (E3 5c)
> Time for Tea (E3 5c)
> Regents Street (E2 5c)
> Scoop Wall (E2 5c)
> Foord's Folly (E2 6a)
> Fern Hill (E2 5c)
> The Rasp (E2 5b)
> Suspense (E2 5c)
> Delicatessen (E2 5c)
> Elder Crack (E2 5b)
> Alcasan (E2 5c)
> Desperation (E1 6a)
> Gumshoe (E2 5c)
Soyuz (E2 5c)
Heart of Gold (E2 5c)
> Wuthering (E2 5b)
The Big Crack (E2 5b)
> Brown's Eliminate (E2 5b)
> Tower Face Direct (E2 5b)
In reply to Offwidth:
> Admair is weird... grades seemed a bit random sub E1 and being steep can feel fairly tough unless you have fabulous sport fitness (not as random as Stac Pollaidh though which has some massive sandbags and some pleasant classics!). Reiff is a bit more consistent but generally very soft touch for the UK: standard YMC grit VS would be low E1 at least at Reiff... I've climbed quite a few E1s in the far NW that I'd give VS.
Really? I didn't climb many routes at Reiff but they all seemed roughly correct for the grade, perhaps a little soft on some, though not others and certainly not any E1s that were as easy as a VS in Yorkshire. Admair seemed fairly well graded too but again we didn't do much, certainly no soft touches.
Post edited at 23:45
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
I cant find most of our notes on the NW but Ardmair wasn't easy.. It was hardish (similar to eastern Peak grit) and as I said, a bit random.... i remember the classic severe was mind blowing for exposure and classic Pembroke style tough HS. On Stac Pollaidh everything lower grade was a sandbag but Reuben on the same day said the classic E1 was a delight. Reiff wasn't as easy as some parts of the far NW but as ever we generally climbed everything we could in a particular area and compared to YMC old grades everything was more than a full grade easier.
We helped remove a lot of the more popular YMC sandbags but by the laws of probability there are plenty left on less well travelled routes we and others never got round to. We always try and match the typical grade position of guides we work on and YMC was the hardest, not far above Roaches and OtM with the eastern edges easier still.
In reply to Offwidth:
Yes, Jack the Ripper definitely isn't high in the grade as I think a previous guidebook may have suggested.
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
I agree with you about Ardmair. Reiff is a curious collection of some fairly graded routes, some soft ones (but still arguably correct) and a few, not many, obviously overgraded ones which I can never understand why successive guidebooks haven't corrected.
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
For me Billy Whizz (E2 5c) was mid E2. Most E1 leaders would be able to do the stuff before the crux fine and you clearly have to do the upper part quickly or you'll fail.
It's true, I like small edges.
In reply to Andy Hardy:
> I failed ignominiously on Insanity (well had to have a few rests) Billy Whizz seemed loads easier. I onsighted Easy Picking (when it was a 6a) but it took me 3 attempts to get Fern Hill. (Desperation is about 5b if you're 6' with a +3 ape index 😉)
Stop it. I'm 6'2" and with a mildly positive ape index...and I still couldn't do it.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Great slab is obviously easier than Quietus but fall off it and you,ll see which is more serious. Great slab easy for 5b but scary. For a true perspective I’ve soloed both, but Quietus once and Great Slab many times.
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