UKH

The body of a missing person was found recently in the Highlands after nearly two months of searching. I'm very sorry for their friends and family.

This isn't the first time someone has gone missing and it's taken weeks to find them, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

We don't know how they died but a simple trip can lead to a fatal injury, or you could have a medical incident.

Police said the individual was last seen wearing dark green and grey clothing and a dark coloured rucksack.

I don't want to come across as preaching or judgemental because we don't know the specifics in this case but the learning point is when you go into the hills alone (and I do often) please leave a route plan with someone and wear bright clothes that can be seen.

I must say that for a long time I’ve been surprised by the enormous amount of hill-camouflaged clothing that’s sold by outdoor equipment shops. I remember we used to laugh at Walter Poucher for saying you should always wear red socks in the hills (he might even have called them stockings), the idea being that it would be useful for rescue teams if you got stuck in a snowdrift with just your feet sticking out. But he had a point.

I think there's separate markets overlapping here.  Wildlife watchers are a decent size market and require clothes not dissimilar to hill goers, but they want stuff in unobtrusive colours.  Can't blame the manufacturers for keeping costs down with a restricted colour range.

There's also, for brands that come from the US, a large sector of hunting types in their home market, again wanting unobtrusive colours.  What gets shipped across the pond will reflect that.

But as a general point yes, I quite agree; brighter colours have an advantage should the worst occur and rescue, or in this case recovery, be required.  And I too remember those Poucher books from back in the day.

T.

I mean, it's quite a natural instinct for hillwalkers, too - all else being equal I'd be happy to fit in with my surroundings and minimize my visual impact rather than wandering around the moors looking like a giant popsicle. It's just a question of when all else ceases to be equal...

I deliberately wear muted colours just so that I don't stand out in the landscape. It's been quite handy at times (eg avoiding gamekeepers and farmers on Bowland back in the day). All my tents have been green for the same reason. I've been wandering the hills blending in for half a century without mishap or needing to be found. You could argue a case for dayglow colours but how far down the road do you go? Should we all carry emergency beacons or just avoid places without phone coverage? I do have a bright orange survival bag which I would crawl into (I know I might be unconscious) if required.

Just have a plan, leave word, if you radically modify it text someone, I'll be back later I'm adding in two more hills, it's wild up here I'm dropping off the ridge etc.. plus learn to navigate, carry a torch and so on. Many things can be done to make your colour of clothing irrelevant. You could have a very thin hi viz vest in your bag, if you are out solo, get injured, call for help and put it on or fasten it to your bag, walking pole etc.. it'll stand out a literal mile and it doesn’t matter what your wardrobe choice of the day was. 

I prefer brightly coloured clothing while out in the mountains for precisely this reason. As a bonus, the garish colourways are usually easily available discounted at the end of a season.

Hmm, I'm not quite sure how I feel about this. You raise a valid point, but I like to be reasonably inconspicuous so as not to spoil the enjoyment of others on the often crowded Lakeland Fells, especially in my choice of tent for wild camping (drab green). But I do make a point of choosing a bright waterproof jacket (much to my wife's disgust), as this will be what I wear in poorer conditions, and when day walking I always carry one of those lurid orange survival bags. 

As to leaving a route plan, sound advice. I would also encourage everyone to carry a decent whistle and a head torch.

Add me to the list of "I don't want to be visual pollution in the landscape" people.

Much of their prey can't see orange. But humans can. So a lot of hunting gear is orange/brown camouflage print, so hunters can see each other, but are camouflaged to prey...

https://www.nrablog.com/articles/2016/6/3-things-you-need-to-know-about-why...

Yep, fair enough, but... 

- outdoor sports are freaking expensive when you add it all up. In common with many, most of my waterproofs/goretex/shell/rucksacks have been the colour that was on special offer...

- what season ? It would be nice to make like a mountain hare and have a seasonally variable wardrobe. Some colours do both, of course. 

You may not know this, but next time you come across someone pouting and flexing that "they're in MR" bear in mind that most of their time is spent on searches anyway, however much they might enjoy practicing reverse-ended-double-backed-three-stacked-stretcher-lowers. People are wicked hard to find, even if they're glowing in IR, whistling six times a minute, wrapped in foil'n'orange and they've laid out a parachute. 

I'm not saying you're wrong. The Home Contact/time overdue advice is key and critical, particularly for timely start of search and for trying to limit the worry of relatives and dependents. But clothing colour is a second-order question compared to these. 

Y

PS. Despite snark above, I do respect the MR folks. Also - if someone does give the whistle response to your six-blasts-per-minute, DON'T STOP WHISTLING until they've actually found you. 

Didn't know that, thank you.  Every day's a school day.

T.

you might be aware of the northumbrian rain dance.

The biggest challenge for any initial search is almost always the size of the area, even with multi team callouts(100 plus boots on ground), dogs, heli etc every area can't be searched initially. Many people just tell partners I'm off to the Rhinogs, Wastwater, Torridon, Cheviots... for the day. If they park obscurily or use public transport you don't even have a start point until the police can track down bus drivers, a car etc.. 

I agree with your first point but your second is I think not correct.

Clothing colour makes a big difference to your prospects of being found particularly if you are dead ( you may not care at that point but others will).

It doesn't have to be dayglo just something that doesn't look right in the environment , especially in the monochrome world of bad weather searches. Curiously, in the Highlands anyway, many greens and blues are relatively distinctive.

I blame manufacturers.  The majority of hillwalking / mountaineering gear is only worn by hillwalkers & mountaineers, so the crossover argument with birders and hunters doesn't really apply.  It's pure fashion, if you went into outdoor shops in Europe 10 years ago it was hard to find drab clothes, whilst in the UK it was hard to find clothes that weren't drab.  There's been a 'lime green fashion' thanks to Edelrid / Salewa, but what's next?

I am always in favour of bright clothes, whether on the hill or not. There are so many brilliant colours in the world, why keep to the dull ones?! 

I'm with you on that 😁

I like bright coloured clothing in general, but a lot of my items of outdoor gear are black because that's what was available in the shop. In the last few years I've noticed a bit more colour variety on the shelves and hope this trend continues.

I should qualify, that's not so that people can find my dead body, it's so that I can wear bright colours.

Couldn't agree less.  If all those stores and companies selling clothes worn by hillwalkers and climbers only sold to people going hillwalking and climbing, then there'd either be a queue on every hill path and at the foot of every climb, or mass layoffs in the outdoor clothing manufacturing and retail sectors.

The number of people that use such clothing for the purpose for which it is marketed to you is a small fraction of the people who use such clothing.  You just assume that's the only purpose it has.

T.

I loved it back in the 80s & 90s when all climbers wore bright colours, with fantastic selection of climbing skins & outlandish t-shirt designs. The photos in the mags always depicted the climber on some desperate route in garish gear. I can recall Paul Williams getting a shot of Dave Towse on Cockblock, on after he has extracted a bright top from his sack for Dave to wear. The pic is in one of the Llanberis guides. There is nothing that frustrates the climbing photographer more than his subject in drab gear, and often lost in the resulting photo. The bane of my life. If you want someone to get a good pic of yourself climbing, get some bright clothes. It makes such a difference. It won't make a poor photo better, but it will make a good photo much better. Then if the worst happens  I've also got some chance of being alive after an accident in the hills.

I HATE BLACK. And grey and dark blue are not much better. All the skiers on Ski Sunday are in bright colours for a reason, to be seen. Cyclists too wear colourful clothing, but I sometimes encounter them in black gear at night. How mad is that?

The gears shops are mainly responsible for this dearth of bright clothing, and anything with a bold pattern  is strictly absent. GoOutdoors catalogue fell through my letterbox yesterday  and you guessed it, nearly all men's gear is drab colour. The one exception was a skier in a right yellow jacket, but that is not featured in the catalogue, so not sold by them. Mountain Warehouse is another serial offender with virtually all their gear is f**king black!

As an artist and designer, I love colour. Colour brightens up our lives. Unlike black and grey cars, red or yellow cars have significantly fewer accidents pro-rata. How often have we had the excuse "I didn't see you!" It's a mindset thing. Some clothing such as football strips have really pushed out the design boat. Why not outdoor gear manufacturers?

Look at the top 100 climbing photos on this site. Of that 100 how many have the main subject in drab colourless clothing. I bet I could count them on one hand!

Note I said 'majority' - I suspect there are far more hillwalkers and mountain people than birders who would want drab clothes. Of course, there are plenty of non-hillwalkers/mountaineers/birders who want a waterproof for going round the shops in, but they don't need drab colours.

I am regularly examining this subject. A few years ago Roger Webb and Neil Smith (M'Lud!) of Dundonnell MRT did a very good presentation at Craigdon in Inverness about being findable. Some of that focussed on the concept of a distessed or injured hill-goer seeking shelter who was making themselves a lot more difficult to find. 

There have been several rescues where rescuers on foot or helicopters have gone over the ground, sometimes several times, where a person was eventually found. I am regularly telling folk to always keep looking behind them during a search but that solves only a small part of the problem.

So what can you do? I'll have a stab at answering that. 
(Many of these are in the ICAR Avalanche Commision's "Be Searchable" document.)
 

1. Wear a helmet. Heads tend to be pretty important. When you have fallen over, you have a far better chance of still being alive and conscious.

2. Whistle. You know the drill. Six long blasts. If replied to with three blasts, don't stop. 

3. COLOUR. Reject the camoflage fashion trend. As noted above by others! Yes, some of us have spent years in camo whether in the military or estate work of some kind but let's just give that up when it's not necessary. 

4. Satellite beacons. Much more affordable now. Importantly, two basic types. PLB on the COSPAS-SARSAT system run by governments (register with Coastguard!!!) or messaging devices on subscription services run by commercial providers. PLB is the gold standard as far as findability is concerned: 406MHz COSPAS-SARSAT alert, accurate MEOSAR GNSS fix, 121.5MHz direction finding by SAR helicopter, strobe light. If your priority is to message Mum every 10 minutes then you need a commercial subscription device. (Battery life: on one popular commercial subscription device the battery life varies from 25 hours to 1100 hours depending upon settings. PLB battery life is six or seven years or until alert.)

5. Mobile Phone coverage. Particularly if you are going to an area with limited footfall, it should be part of your risk assessment to look at the phone coverage in that area. The Ofcom website provides coverage maps for all networks (probably based on simulations). The Mastdata website provides coverage maps of real user surveys and Android users can help by running their own surveys which will help other hill-goers as well as MRT. 999-roaming operates on UK networks so ANY network coverage provides a route for 999/112 calls. (999 calls/text from modern GNSS/ELS-capable phones send an AML datastream with location.)

5. Mobile phone detection. A year from now, the UKSAR2G contract starts for SAR helicopters. The current understanding is that Smith-Myers Artemis will be deployed on these aircraft. (Transition-in Oct 2024 to Jan 2027.) Every mobile phone becomes a rescue beacon so long as it is switched on and phone service is on (NOT in flight mode: maybe reduce to 2G-only to save battery). If you are missing, a police force instigating a genuine SAR operation can access key information from the network operator that enables a search for an individual phone. 

6. Recco reflector. I have one fixed in the top pocket of my rucksack. Recco is not widely used in the UK but it is used in some areas and more likely to be used in an avalanche rescue. Why would you not? Also, Swiss avalanche expert Manuel Genswein is forever reminding us that nobody has ever lost their trousers in an avalanche and therefore it is the best place to keep transceivers or reflectors!

7. Avalanche Transceiver. It is likely only a small number of very keen winter folks will be using these but if you can afford it then do it. Winter climbers will tend to be on avalanche prone slopes during the approach to climbs or on descents. 

8. Lights. Searches may stand down at night but actually it can be an opportunity. A PLB strobe, for instance, become very very obvious at night. However, far lower levels of light can be detected by night vision goggle wearers at night is a mountain environment. The first person in the UK rescued after being detected using NVG was in 1993 when they were found by Lossiemouth's Rescue 137 after the tiny backlight of a device was spotted from three or four miles away. 
- Low level long-life LED lighting. Some head torches, like Petzl's Tikka, have a low white light setting that lasts up to 100 hours. Typically, initial searches are for three full days so this setting can last the full duration of a search. An alternative is the red flashing setting on some headtorches that lasts up to 400 hours. If you are alone and are entering a higher risk situation, including getting tired on descent (!), get that headtorch out and put it on your head (Helmet!) because it makes you VERY findable if it all goes wrong. Easy and cheap.

9. Add more colour and reflective materials. Put reflective tape on that helmet. Remember helmets? I am planning to buy a length of orange 50mm wide ribbon and experiment with its visibility. Cheap and light. Once you have hunkered down behind a rock in your green bivi bag and black hat to look after your broken ankle, an orange ribbon fluttering in the breeze above you should be a useful signal. 

To illustrate my point look at these iconic Covers.

https://www.climbing.com/photos/photo-gallery-50-years-of-iconic-climbing-c...

Apparently bright ski trousers are now uncool, and I see Cody Townsend has gone all stealth with his Salomon clothing. 

That isn't true. It's worn by all sorts of people, mostly city dwellers taking the dog out or walking to the tube in the rain. Technical gear is fashionable and most goretex jackets will never see a decent hill before being thrown out. *

* obviously I have no way of actually knowing that or having any stats to back up my prejudiced assumptions. I just get grumpy when I see people who clearly don't need it wearing kit that would be very useful to me if I could afford it.

The dislikes are out in force on this thread. What is it that is so cool about being unnecessarily dead?

I always agreed with the theory of this, but having had a nightmare trying to find good spec women's waterproofs, given how short supply is for good women's kit that fits anyway, I've ended up taking what I could get, and that was green... 

I didn't dislike your post and there is a lot of good stuff in it.

However, your point about transceivers is a bit simplistic. It really isn't as simple as having one improves your chances. There is a whole lot more to it than that to the extent that their usefulness for winter climbers in the UK is quite limited.

I don't know. It may be that some people (myself included) don't think you have to venture outside dressed like a psychedelic Christmas tree to survive a day on the hill?

I'd forgotten about Recco reflectors  I have one on my ski kit so why not on my mountaineering kit

That is a great idea maybe try it with some non adhesive Hazard/Barrier Tape as well as the ribbon 

Its likely that all a Recco reflector will help with in climbing is body recovery. Which is important but not as important as not becoming a body!

Do MRT teams even have the kit?

I think it's a sad reflection on how selfish some people are. There's no consideration of the hundreds of hours freely put in by volunteer MR teams looking for a casualty. No one pays them for doing it but some people seem to take it for granted that they'll be there if something goes wrong. The least we can do is try and make their job a little easier.

I'm particularly unhappy by so much gear and clothing being black or grey!  Of all the colours to choose!  Yes, let the SF aspirants wear black if they must but please give us a range of colours!

I do like unobtrusive clothing (other than black or grey) but have a red rucsack (Aguille)

With transceivers isn't it a bit of a chicken and egg problem? There isn't much point having one if they're not commonly carried in Scotland, because anyone witnessing an avalanche burying you is unlikely to have one. If we all carried transceivers, like backcountry skiers in the US do, then carrying one would make sense.

Everyone carrying one won't make much difference as the chances of being rescued from burial in the necessary time frame by passers-by is minimal. What they're intended to facilitate is companion rescue.

For them to be effective, everyone in a party needs to carry all the kit (shovel, probe and transceiver) and there would need to be significant and possibly impractical  behaviour changes to ensure any avalanche only buries one person so that the others can effect rescue. 

When you couple this with the weight/space the kit takes up and the relatively low probability of burial in Scotland they just don't seem to offer much benefit for many climbers. I never take avy kit when climbing in Scotland but often take it when skiing.

I hated it back in the 80s and 90s when all climbers wore bright colours. Ridiculous posing I thought in tune with the materialistic wide boy spirit of the times. Seek out the olive drab wherever ye go.

I was trying to find an old pic of Bonners (I think) astride a lofty arete, ice axes aloft, with a bunch of other mountaineers all wearing ridiculous bright goretex. Maybe a berghaus publicity shot. Can't locate it now...

No, no, and thrice no.  Although I do carry a fluorescent vest.  Thought this  you must wear bright clothing was put firmly in it's box in the 1970s. That list of gear upthread was pretty terrifying as well.

(Besides some of the wee hills I do, usually but not always in England or Wales, probably could do with some DPM).

I remember my first climbing trip with my mentor for the club I was trying to join. I parked my van (a  proper work one) at Cwm Silyn and got out and I  put my Hi Vis Vest on, and he looked at me wondering what the hell I was up to. So I asked if he was not putting his hi viz vest on, and he said no. 
So I asked if he did not think going into the hills without a hi viz jacket was an unjustifiable risk. (I did have a big daft grin) We both burst into laughter and and chucked the jacket back in the van and went and did Kirkus Route and some Esoteric route up the valley whose name escapes me.

Sponsorship and marketing 

Because a car might hit them, unlikely to be a problem half way up curved ridge. 

Depends where you are, staff and students from glenmore, pyb and military training will have them. If you're in the northern corries, coe, the ben in peak winter you're probably never that far from another group with transceivers. Not sure if Ski patrols at the ski centres have them too, if there's a big slide at the back of Aonach Mor etc.

But I don't climb, or go into the outdoors to provide photo ops for photographers. As I said above, I don't want to be so conspicuous that someone wants to photograph me.

All of this may be true but unless some of those people witness you getting caught in the avalanche then the chance of them digging you out in time is tiny. 

True, but if there's an avalanche in the northern corries, or one of gullies on the ben, just like if someone falls and screams, then word travels around the corries fairly quickly. As Blyth Wright's book title says, chance in million, but there are ways to push the odds in your favour if the worst happens. Yeah first 30mins matter most, but it's not impossible to be pulled out 1-2hrs later. Each to their own. 

I don't think carrying a transceiver in the hope of passers-by rescuing you pushes the odds in your favour in any meaningful way. Either use them in the way they're intended or spend the money on an avalanche education course instead. In fact, just spend the money on a course anyway.

It's worse than that. Figures vary but a Canadian study showed the probability of survival to be 86% after 10 minutes of burial but less that 10% after 35 minutes. 

Yeah, a French ski instructor whose brother had been rescued after 30 minutes said how lucky* he was, as 30 minutes is really at the tail end of the survival probability curve.

* to be rescued; unlucky to be avalanched...

I think that people surviving longer have likely benefitted from an air pocket of some sort, maybe caused by blocks of snow leaving a gap.

My experience is that backcountry skiers are often much more clued up than climbers on this stuff and that there is a way to go in avalanche education for climbers. I speak from experience as I'd been climbing for about 20 years before I started skiing. It was only then that I really got clued up on it and I shudder to think about what I did before that.

I agree, avalanche survival plummets with time, and yes transceivers aren't a substitute for avalanche training, but why not have more knowledge, skills and have a transceiver, there's no downside. Survival times vary vastly with avalanche type and scale, open slope, versus steep Vs like Tulaich where poor souls have been buried 10m down, with zero chance of survival. However there is sometimes hope...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/survivors-tell-of-16-hours-buried-alive-...

Transceivers in Scotland for winter climbers/walkers.  An interesting conundrum.  It would be interesting to retrospectively look at incidents in the Scottish hills and assess the likelihood that transceivers might have saved lives.  The SMC Journal used to post a short description of every rescue in Scotland (before, as I understand it, the police refused permission for them to be published due to GDPR concerns).  A number of years ago I did review all avalanche incidents reported in the SMCJ over the 10 year period prior to this to try to get a sense of whether (and where) transceivers might have saved lives.  I realise of course that these reports were quite superficial but, being very active in winter then, I was also aware of the circumstances behind many of these incidents.   The key takeaway I think was that, for me, transceivers would not have saved lives.

That's not to say that, in certain circumstances, transceivers are not a good idea.  Specifically for large groups, staying in one area for an extended time - think Chalamain Gap, Aonach Mor in 1999.  Even then though, for these incidents, the lives lost would not have been saved.

Don't get caught in an avalanche in the first place seems to be the best policy.

You are making some pretty wild assumptions. The idea we can't go outside unless with are dressed in pink and carrying Jim Fraser's half dozen electronic gizmos is nonsense. Many of us enjoy being outside precisely to avoid being perpetually in contact and to be self-sufficient, including taking some (very small) risk of dying.  Abandoning all this would fundamentally change the activity of going for a walk 

I own a sky blue Marmot for when the weather's particularly heavy, a yellow Helly Hansen for milder conditions (simply because it's lighter) and a brown North Face for when I'm out shop-lifting.

 "and a brown North Face for when I'm out shop-lifting."

You win the Internet for today.

For me to adopt a piece of safety equipment the absence of a downside isn't enough, there needs to be a clear upside. Otherwise it's just clutching at straws.

There is a clear upside for some users if you carry the full kit (shovel, probe and transceiver) and adapt your behaviour accordingly but that really doesn't apply to just carrying the transceiver.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/survivors-tell-of-16-hours-buried-alive-...

I don't really feel that outliers like this represent much if any of an argument for the carrying of transceivers alone. 

But perhaps I should point out that mountaineers/walkers have been missing outside the winter season, when they are not buried under some avalanche but because of their drab clothing, search teams have failed to locate them. In one case in Glen Etive a few years back, the walker was not found until months later. He had fallen into a gully and looked like he has sustained a broken leg. So in all likelihood had probably survived for a number of days, not minutes as is the case with avalanche victims. Even a bright rucksack might have been enough to save him?

The world would look more cheerful if everyone wore lots of colours ☺️

I like orange and teal in particular. But really, my favourite colour is all of them, and as many as possible at the same time! 

I like things looking cheerful!

Narrated, I'm imagining, by John Cleese

I have a bright orange rubble sack as a rucksack liner. First and foremost to keep the bag contents dry, but secondly as a high viability marker in an emergency.

Thinking as a future dead person (and I don't think I'm exceptional in that likelihood) I find I'm a bit indifferent to the more delicate sensitivities of the living. Could be just me, or could be a dead person thing. I dunno.

It’s an interesting topic this, and I find myself in several camps. Looking at my kit, most of it is of drab colour,  but my waterproof is navy blue and rucksack is orange. 
With regards to cyclists being seen, I thought studies showed that wearing black made no difference in visibility to others, to pinks and yellows. How can that be?

Think this opening post is really out of order - surely the real tragedy here is that someone died, not that some people tried to find him (and it took them a while).  You state we don’t know the specifics and you therefore have zero idea whether bright clothing would have helped in this case. 
 

your discussion on clothing colours is fair enough but to link it to someone who died on the hill seems really poor taste.

I have an orange foil blizzard bag should something untoward happen. I always leave route details when running. If I'm in no condition to get the bag out of my running vest than I've probably had it anyway.

Even more time would have been saved if they’d enabled their relatives to track their phone by its GPS using the “find my” feature.

Even more time still would have been saved if they’d not gone out in the hills.

You’re pushing an arbitrary, and arguably, minimally effective, solution to a rare problem and hanging it off the back of a tragedy.

Same here. Of course people do get buried in avalanches in the UK, but it's not as common as getting smashed up in rocks or swept over cliffs. 

There was the tragic case on the Ben about five years ago when that couple were buried in avalanche. I was skiing on Aonach Mor with my kids the same day and we watched the helicopters buzzing around before we heard there was a missing party. As I remember it, no one saw the slide that took them, so no knew for some time what had actually happened. I guess if they had been wearing transceivers, the MRT might have found where they were on the mountain faster, but I'm sure it still would have been far too late to help them. Transceivers are really about other people in your party being able to find you and dig you out. Almost all of my days out ski mountaineering I've been groups of more than two, and you naturally or purposely spread out in suspect terrain. The vast majority of my winter climbing I've done with one partner and you spend most of the day no more than 50 mtrs apart. It's just a really different way of being in the mountains I suppose. 

When I worked for the Greenland Geological Survey, two of the standard items of emergency equipment (that weighed almost nothing) were orange fluorescent sheets and heliograph mirrors. We didn't just have these for emergencies; we used them for all our camp moves, to help the helicopter pilots fly straight to us. I was so impressed by these items that I have included them in my emergency kit ever since. 

We only die once and it is necessary that we do so.

Why should we have to dress like a court jester for the whole of our lives in a vain attempt to delay the inevitable?

I'm wondering if those suits from Tron are actually worth a thought? On the phone to Dragons Den now... I'll update on progress later... 

Having been involved in many many searches and likely some of the searches you mention the single most common factor was they left nothing resembling a route plan, a note on the dash board, nothing, and they weren't eventually found on a common route, path, scramble etc.. all the common navigation traps, cut throughs etc are also searched early, but still they aren't found. It's a big place out there and even in a nice red jacket if you fall face down, with a rucksack on, in a ditch, stream gully, boulder field, bracken, thick heather, long grass, soft snow, brambles... it's surprising how little distance you need to be from someone to completely miss them. The examples you cite had dogs and flir looking for them too, which makes jacket colour irrelevant. Finding missing people isn't an exact science, you can't create finites out of the randomness of human decisions. 

The answer is always the same tell others, tell them where you are going with a cut off time to call for help if you don't check in. 

This is what I meant by 'significant and possibly impractical behaviour changes'. There's no point in carrying avalanche kit if the whole party gets buried or the unburied members are too injured to perform a search. The sad example you gave illustrates this and there are plenty of others. There's also the fact that a search on skis is likely to be quicker making it more effective.

Adopting kit/practice from another activity doesn't always work and the reasons aren't always obvious. It's important not to dismiss it out of hand but we shouldn't just assume that if it works for one it will work for the other.

I think Turfty is right to say that there are situations where carrying all three bits of the kit makes sense for climbers but the classic, pair heading off into a corrie isn't one of them. Only carrying a transceiver makes no sense for any reason other than body recovery.

My take home messages from that talk were to get a red jacket and a PLB both of which I have done. It was an excellent presentation from a wealth of experience.

My theory is nothing makes you visible to somebody not paying attention. Hiviz makes you more visible to those paying attention who would have seen you anyway. No difference to safety as those paying attention are not the danger.

I agree with you there. I remember looking for a top to replace my red soft shell and only having black to choose from.

A quick scan of a well known outdoor shop shows that dark colours still predominate.

That being said it depends on what activity I am engaged in. CLimbing I like bright colours but if birdwatching i prefer dark

SMIDSY.

Some good points there. I would certainly consider a PLB if I was more active in the Highlands.

Haven't come across Recco before, looks like a good system - similar to a radar reflector on a boat? Pity that it's use isn't more widespread.

"With regards to cyclists being seen, I thought studies showed that wearing black made no difference in visibility to others, to pinks and yellows. How can that be?"

Contrast. I find black cars much easier to see than the tarmac grey ones that are all the rage.  Most of my kit is black(its common in gear shops), and it is probably too contrasty for times when I need to be more stealthy. It's not all that daft a colour if you want to be seen in daylight.   At night it does not matter as all colours are the same in the dark.  Anyway as I saw elsewhere, clock fiddling this weekend, so remember to put your high viz paint on your car.

Other contexts - railways, building sites etc - show this isn't the case. Although orange (railway standard) is much better than yellow, particularly in low light.

The tricky one is dogging. Being discrete is all very well but if you're too well hidden you miss out on all the action

But SMIDSY usually means "I wasn't looking". Or "I saw you, but I did the stupid thing anyway".

During the day, yes. At night, not so good...

Something with both bright and dark colours is good, to provide contrast against both bright and dark backgrounds.

I'm  only recalling what the MR said to the media at the time. I also know that someone lost in bracken can be incredibly hard to locate quickly. I once had an ex-police sniffer dog (Springer spaniel) but unfortunately for search purposes he was 'Semtex' trained, so not so good in the hills!

And yet emergency service wear yellow...

The important bit in low (day)light is fluorescence, to make use of the UV light that persists. That's why fluorescent items stand out in twilight.

Reflective tape is also good (see Deliveroo clothing & bags...).

I usually find a flash of my pert buttocks is all i need

As one who worked on the highway in low light /dark conditions I would say this might have more to do with corporate image and not being mistaken for different services. We had green so that we wouldn't be mistaken for other maintenance workers who wore orange.

It's a complicated picture. Hi-vis only works in daylight (less UV in street/headlights) and hi-vis/bright colours in daylight are thought to make a difference, as do flashing daytime running lights. At night, reflective stripes/clothing and lights are the key items.

However, bigger impacts are driver concentration, driver expectations and the streetscape. If a driver is distracted or is not "expecting" a cyclist to be there, the research shows you can be lit up like a Christmas tree and won't be spotted. See the numerous incidents of people crashing into police cars, they are not exactly inconspicuous! Re streetscape, in busy urban environments with lots of lights, colours etc it is a lot harder to stand out.

Yes, you never know whether you are going to end up dogging when you start up a pitch? Look inconspicuous just in case?

I'm not defending anyone's poor driving, but it is remarkably easy to 'look but not see'. The eye has some serious limitations that I'd think must play a part in at least some car-bike (and car-car interactions). And how many people are aware of those limitations? How much 'human factors' information is there in the driving theory test?

I wear bright colours as a rule in the hills (and in life in general) - mostly because it makes me happy, but also because I figure that being more visible to helicopters is probably a good thing in bigger mountains should it all go horribly wrong. I think the orange patch on the top of the Petzl Sirocco is a very sensible idea that more helmet manufacturers should adopt.

For hillwalking, I don't really think anything of going off to "the Highlands" or wherever without telling anyone anything more specific though - and I appreciate that that is remarkably inconsiderate for rescue services and relatives should the worst happen, but the entire reason I escape to the hills on my own is for a feeling of solitude and of having no responsibility to anyone but myself and of having full responsibility for myself. Leaving route cards with people would really impinge on that feeling and the feeling of being able to adapt and change plans as the day (or days evolve), and in short order I'm sure would lead to drama when I spontaneously decide to extend my trip by a few days and there's no phone signal.

In that case, I'd suggest it is maintenance workers who are wearing colours other than yellow, so as not to be mistaken for the police, in particular; impersonating a police officer being an offence...

I'm not sure who started wearing bright/fluorescent colours first; emergency services or civil engineering workers.

My anecdotal, personal experience is the fluorescent yellow seems brighter in low daylight than fluorescent orange. Maybe studies show that orange is better in a wider range of lighting conditions (including artificial lighting).

This is an interesting topic, my most recent cag is a drab red, but there’ve been numerous times I’ve been dressed in drab. It’s true for me that one of the joys of being out is to get away from everything, my daily life is populated by a thousand alerts all trying for attention.

I’ll take away the need to leave a better ideas of intentions, even if they change. I was in Ogwen recently and said I was bouldering at Sheep Pen, the weather said otherwise and I ran over Tryfan and the Glyders. Can’t remember if that included an update on plans, but it should.

Recco is widely used everywhere apart from the uk! 

https://www.snowsafe.co.uk/list-resorts-use-recco/

I think the other key differences between skiing and Scottish winter climbing are:

• skiers are often seeking out avalanche prone scopes (over 30deg with fresh snow), climbers are only on them whilst getting to/from the route (normally too steep to avalanche)
• skiers cover ground quickly, you can move from one aspect to another in a short space of time, often without realising.

However, I do get frustrated with the "time" element of avalanche discussions. Speed is stressed as important in training because it is, but it has warped people perceptions of what we should be doing imho. Swiss research shows that 19% of >1hr avalanche "victims" survive (survival rate linked to burial depth). That time frame makes rescue by others, not companion rescue, feasible and at 1 in 5, the odds start to tip more in favour or wearing a transceiver, especially if you already possess one.

What is often overlooked in these discussions (but that you did allude to!) is what actually kills people in the avalanches in the locality you are operating in. Scotland is not known for it's powder snow and survival rates for wet heavy snow avalanches in rocky terrain are not great!

Last time I went Scottish winter climbing did wear my transceiver as I thought, why not? We were on Aonach Mor, a relatively busy area near a ski resort after recent snowfall. I don't think wearing it affected my decision making (my partner did not have one).

Good stuff but should point out that some countries do not allow PLBs to be used – Denmark, Germany, Hong Kong, Korea (Rep. of), Malaysia, Mayanmar, North Macedonia, Poland, Singapore, Spain

My other hobby is fishing, and thousands of hours staring at floats on the sea and in lakes tell me that 'flame orange' is the best colour for visibility in the widest range of conditions.  Yellow disappears when the sun is behind the float reflecting off the water (and it doesn't even need to be super-sunny).   In those situations black is actually the best colour - the silhouette stands out most.  Commercial fishermen all use dayglo orange bobbers to mark their nets and pots for a good reason .   In an area with no shadows (open moorland, or a flat arctic landscape) black would probably be a reasonable choice for daytime visibility, but that's all. 

Fluoro yellow also blends into vegetation better than you'd want it to - pink tennis balls are far easier to find in hedges than yellow ones.

I dunno about you, but I'd rather die when my wife and children don't rely on me to pay for our house / food / everything. I think they'd be rather upset if I died 'before my time', and that may cause problems for them.

I always tell my scouts to put 2 foot of bright string on their penknives, it drastically improves the chance of finding them when dropped in a field.  I think kite tail material would be ideal for a human.  Doesn't some kind of avalanche kit feature an auto-ejecting ribbon?

Don't know about that but "powder tails" were all the rage in the late 80s/early 90s to allow you to find skis off piste when, as a Brit skiing you had invariably stacked it in deep powder in an attempt to recreate a Blizzard of Aaahs style segment.

Different people will have different attitudes to death but we are very insulated from the simple realities these days and some of our expectations can be rather unrealistic.

Insurance covers the monetary worries, with all the borrowing paid off and a lump sum to allow them to adjust to their loss.

Bereavement is never easy but  that does not mean that any of us can live forever or that we should be expected to prolong our lives to postpone the inevitable. I would feel rather selfish if I expected others to wrap themselves in cotton wool and live less fulfilling lives in order to protect my own feelings.

The evidence for cycling hi viz is mixed, with studies showing both that it does and it doesn't make difference. 

That's consistent with idea that it doesn't make much difference to the incidence of driver 'look but not see' and may increase cyclists risk taking (false sense of security & risk compensation).

Human factors - I agree, the incidence of collisions due to brake or steering failure must be miniscule compared to mistakes by road users.

I reckon if I saw an avalanche coming my way I'd feature an auto-ejecting colon. Send in the sniffer dogs!

Agreed. That's why I mentioned the importance of contrasting colours:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/hill_talk/please_wear_bright_colours_on_t...

One should endeavour to go out climbing in a well made well fitting tweed with the loudest check one can find at one's tailor.

That is how Rees-Mogg would go out on grit

"Something with both bright and dark colours is good, to provide contrast against both bright and dark backgrounds."

Breaks up the outline - bit like WW1 dazzle.   At night all colours are pretty much equal. Get something reflective.

Add Semtex to that big list of tech that you Must take with you above. 

And sometimes I wear tweed. (no not the old dear's perfume)

If one is lieing unconscious somewhere clad in wet tweed, the rescuers just need to follow the stench of piss.

Black is a lot different to light colours, when hit with car headlamps, or streetlights.

That was the case in the UK until 2012. There are all sorts of reasons that countries ban PLB. One at or near the top of the list is simply not trusting people to have them. It's like they think everyone will use their PLB every time they need a taxi back from the pub. The reality is that an alert normally costs you a battery and, avoiding '30 bob from China' versions, that can be half the cost of the beacon. 

I remember a discussion about this with a chap from the Home Office Radio Authority about 30 years ago and he was horrified when I told him anyone could order a PLB from Norway for £150. They had no idea they were so cheap compared to EPIRB. In the same period, during which COSPAS-SARSAT was still very new, the reality of false alerts was mainly boats setting off EPIRB during maintenance because people still had no idea what these things were. UKMCC were seeing boats alerting doing 60mph up the motorway and similar unlikely scenarios. 

It took the government another 20 years to do something sensible. 

Try to avoid hills with streetlights or cars - yes I know, Crowborough!

I mean human factors as in recognising the situations and factors that often underpin humans performing poorly. It's not helpful to just simplify it to "drivers making mistakes" without trying to understand why that might be. Aviation understands that humans are far from infallible beings and that it's more complicated than "the twerp wasn't paying attention". There's an entire exam on it for the flying equivalent of the normal category B driving license.

https://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/

How many car drivers are aware of any of that?  How many might be safer drivers armed with a little bit of understanding? You can't mitigate problems that you're blissfully ignorant of.

And yes, I'm sure many accidents are because people are being twerps and not paying due attention to what they're doing and respecting the fact that they're driving a a heavy object subject to all of the laws of physics.

https://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/

Thanks for posting that link. A very interesting read.

You forgot about the necessary glasses: Plus a smaller replica scaled down version of Rees-Mogg, equally obnoxious in the approach.

That strand of conversation was about car drivers and cyclist visibility. So streetlights and car headlights very relevant.

Rees-Mogg has my blessing to go out into the wilderness in gear that blends into the landscape.

I am always amazed at how good the proviz kit is for being seen. For a long time I avoided it because it was all grey in colour, and grey has no place in my wardrobe! But now you can buy blue and pink stuff with proviz through it, so definitely thinking I should get some. Particularly useful for any road cycling, but would equally stand out very well in the hills. It would be excellent if manufacturers added it mountaineering into waterproof jackets. 

It's probably virtual now, but there was previously a magazine called human factors entirely related to aircraft accidents, actual or averted, involving crew, engineers and atc. It obviously stated most incidents were human error, but questioned why, was it complacency, poor training, supervision, fatigue etc.. it challenged what caused the human 'mistake' with guidelines to prevent in the future. 

Good to know 1 tonne camouflaged lumps of metal have lights as well.

"Rees-Mogg has my blessing to go out into the wilderness in gear that blends into the landscape."

Not mine - I want to be warned.  Light it up like  a Christmas tree.  Imagine tripping over it and getting it on your boots.

I imagine that many people would love to get it all over their boots.  I personally would enthusiastically stomp right through it.

Anyone old enough to remember when that halfwit wrote an article for the Daily Mail suggesting all walkers carry a 20 foot pole with a flashing light on the top 

If anyone suggested I should carry such a pole I think I'd invite the plonker to carry said pole him/herself, but in an "alternative" manner.

But then how is one meant to see the flashing light?

Make it a very bright light, or 180 degrees.

As bright as the sun...?

Not even BMW can manage that.   (How I hate it when Glary Mary and her chums return in the Autumn).

As for yellow hi viz - saw it acting as cammo yesterday, someone materialised from yellowing vegetation in exactly the same way  grey cars appear from nowhere.  +1 for orange.

Entirely different situations and environments and assuming what works in one environment works in another in this case has been shown to be flawed.

SMIDSY means they saw you but didn’t give a toss 

He’d be in tweed with a deerstalker naturally.

There’s still air craft disasters on the TV most evening examining what happened and how they determined that, and subsequent changes made as a result. All very interesting.

Another thanks for the link. Very useful. I do miss things while scanning back and forth which is exacerbated by some loss of peripheral vision due to glaucoma. Perhaps explains me frequently missing numbered squares when scanning back and forth to fill numbered  squares with a certain letter in codeword puzzles!

And thanks also.

Our behaviours towards risk is rarely logical.
How many thousands of people go walking in the countryside, on our hills and mountains  every single day of the year?  How many of those have accidents in which the wearing of bright clothing made it far easier for the MR etc., to locate them?

I'd suspect very few.  Yet there is the suggestion we wear bright clothing.

Climbers, unless they  are soloing , certainly do not need bright clothing.  You are hardly likely to go missing on the end of 120ft of rope, even if you are dressed in camo tights and top., 

Nearly every day on TV  I see some politician or someone opening some building site, cutting the turf or announcing how the new facility/building/office/factory etc., will benefit the economy  whilst wearing hi viz jackets, safety glasses and most ridiculously of all a safety helmet when there's absolutely nothing on site yet which is overhead and capable of falling down..

I wonder how long it will be before we are  told to wear a life jacket/buoyancy aid whilst out canoeing and ensure all our canoes/kayaks are painted in bright and day-glow colours?

I drive our roads and see motorists using their phones and to a lessor extent not wearing seat belts.  The risk of injury or death seems quite hight - apart from being illegal. Yet some people still do it.

 

Bright clothing while hanging from the side of a pointy spire in the Alps, in marginal rescue weather, may make all of the difference in fairness. Being visible from the air may even make all of the difference in the UK if you're in a position where you need rescue. But it's a balancing act - how much less likely are you to need rescue while pottering about in the hills compared to climbing pointy alpine spires? What other things do you have with you that you'll be using in that situation (bright orange survival bags are probably more likely to be found in a hillwalker's backpack than an alpine climber's), etc. And how much do you care about the colours of clothing that you wear? I like colour, so I naturally gravitate towards bright colours anyway.

People go climbing for reasons other than the photographic potential?

The bane of my life at work. I nearly walked off site last year after an incredibly unpleasant interactions with an incredibly unpleasant H&S officer going off the deep end at me for not wearing a high-vis...in a finished venue with no rigging, no plant, no hazards - while standing at a FOH control position that was boxed in by permanent bits of wall. Apparently the worry of dragging a £30k piece of technology off the desk by getting said high-vis caught in the keyboard drawer is less of a concern than being run-over by an out-of-control telehandler that's already crashed through the wall of the venue, up the raked seating and through the wall surrounding me. From parked. Without anyone driving it.

Bright clothing while hanging from the side of a pointy spire in the Alps, in marginal rescue weather, may make all of the difference in fairness. Being visible from the air may even make all of the difference in the UK if you're in a position where you need rescue. But it's a balancing act - how much less likely are you to need rescue while pottering about in the hills compared to climbing pointy alpine spires? What other things do you have with you that you'll be using in that situation (bright orange survival bags are probably more likely to be found in a hillwalker's backpack than an alpine climber's), etc. And how much do you care about the colours of clothing that you wear? I like colour, so I naturally gravitate towards bright colours anyway.

People go climbing for reasons other than the photographic potential?

The bane of my life at work. I nearly walked off site last year after an incredibly unpleasant interactions with an incredibly unpleasant H&S officer going off the deep end at me for not wearing a high-vis...in a finished venue with no rigging, no plant, no hazards - while standing at a FOH control position that was boxed in by permanent bits of wall. Apparently the worry of dragging a £30k piece of technology off the desk by getting said high-vis caught in the keyboard drawer is less of a concern than being run-over by an out-of-control telehandler that's already crashed through the wall of the venue, up the raked seating and through the wall surrounding me. From parked. Without anyone driving it.

Do you have a reference for that? Railways in particular seem very similar.

Had a good walk today along part of the Riblble way from Hurst Green to Clitheroe.
At one point two Women approached in a bright Lime and a bright orange Jacket and they were having a right old giggle, having a real good laugh as the walked along, a bit loud if truth be told, made me smile to see them enjoying themselves.
I wondered what the miserable gits of UKC would have thought of the visual and aural pollution.

It is awful hearing stories like this. Often we don't think of the worst that can happen!

Do the fashion police operate a SWAT team?  Do they even have an emergency number?

I know, for years I've been tormented by the thought of Ronhills becoming uncool

I was watching someone working an E7 yesterday while wearing what I think were Ronhills, or at least a worth copy of them. That looked pretty cool!

Ha! If only they'd made me that cool.

A good reminder. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. BTW, do you have any recommendations for outdoor gear stores and survival blankets?

I'm looking for some advanced wound closure with interlaced locking technology. If you happen to know of someone?

For information, report by the GMR team on how they found the missing walker

https://www.facebook.com/100064551255660/posts/720035236824845/

how sad, I am definitely in favour of the brighter coloured clothes. I think the only reason for camouflaged clothes is if you are bird watching ect and maybe don't want to be seen. I feel like a lot of people don't take out life insurance for climbing and hill walking but I actually feel it's so important especially after reading this https://sports-fs.co.uk/climbing-life-insurance/ maybe people should read into the importance of cover 

Or maybe you are somewhere that might cause errmmm.... "friction"
In which case... welcome to the "red headtorch" club! (11th commandment and all that)

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet (can't be arsed to read all the last posts) but part of the reason a good few of my outdoor clothing isn't bright is because I buy most of my clothes used/outlet when colour choice isn't an option.

I would love to have bright coloured layers but it just isn't within my budget. Along with this because of a limited budget I don't want to spend a large amount on clothes that I couldn't also just wear out if the conditions were bad near my house.

Now hold on a minute there, Loola! I think the British Army wouldn't appreciate charging about in fluorescent orange and teal

Times have changed Lankyman...  if people self-identify with bright colours, then the training Sargent (or his bulldog corporal with Saturday night punch-up teeth) are no longer allowed to question it

You'd be surprised how many bird watchers stalk the fells in full on cammo.

If you could see them,

One gave me the fright of my life earlier this year.

I think the quote went a bit wrong. Orange hiviz as was determined for UK railways as the last measure of health and safety if all other safety measures fail all good. Taking that as the first safety measure in a different context, entirely inappropriate 

If anyone is interested in this there is a good description of how safety measures should be prioritised:

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/hierarchy/default.html

If you are dependent on PPE for safety you have done at least one thing wrong somewhere, not using appropriate PPE is a personal choice but often a bad one.

Also hi viz yellow/green is prohibited (think traffic lights!) as is red clothing. Hence orange being the colour of choice by Railtrack.

Just had the misfortune to see a Touching the Void inspired scene from Hamish McBeth. Before the abominable climbing scenes and Robert Carlyle's gentle Sunday evening character out Francoing Franco Begbie, I was taken by the gear being worn. Some great 90's colour schemes and no marker pen hi-viz at all.  

See also the Munro Show - watched Oor Wullie vrs Aonach Eagach (arghhhh!) yesterday.  Very colourful and unlike the above very enjoyable. 

A proportional lesson learnt.

An unproportional lesson learnt so we can dismiss this one.

Or trying to learn lessons from a tragedy. Which is never an un-worthwhile exercise.

I don’t follow how this applies to PPE such as ear defenders? Aren’t they frequently the only potential defence between the operator and hearing loss, because some equipment is just unavoidably noisy? Nevertheless it seems very much the norm for people not to bother, even when using noisy equipment all day every day  

I was thinking about this episode only the other day on the hill - do I recall correctly that before deploying to the hill the ad hoc MR team all donned kilts? And not in dayglo orange- the shame!

They just turned up in a helicopter which was brightest Swiss red and stayed in the background.

You are correct, I was more thinking about keeping limbs intact etc. Generally PPE should be low on the list of options, I know that vibration hazards have been a big issue in the rail industry for a few years due to vibration white finger and Network Rail are looking for technological solutions.

I have massive issues with noise sensitivity so wind up wearing ear plugs a lot when in the office so forget about them being PPE.

No, because the better solution is not to use noisy equipment, or to remove the operator from exposure to the noisy equipment. H&S is about reducing risk by changing the process to eliminate the hazard. Although, of course. ALARP comes into it...

Hmm, must be thinking of a different episode - perhaps time for a re-watch

A perfect illustration of a non climber's idea of climbing. Think Rockface, but with fewer monks.

I totally agree that anyone hiking remote areas alone should wear some kind of reflective clothing to help the rescue services find them quicker and easier, not that it’s an easy job for them at the best of times.   

Even though I rarely explore in a group smaller than four, I always carry a reflective jacket in my inventory when exploring very remote regions. This is not the case in more populated areas where I know our group can easily separate looking for help without compromising safety  
 

I’m not sure many will agree - the number of people who need to be ‘found’ vs. the thousands who take to the hills every year mean that this is unlikely to have a significant impact.  Many recent hill fatalities in Scotland have occurred in spots with no real line of sight, so you could be wearing whatever colour you want and no guarantees you’d be found.

I’ve said up thread, and should probably just decline to post, but I always feel like these threads linking to a recent tragedy are unhelpful because a) the poster generally makes assumptions about an individual’s actions and situation that may well not apply and b) it always feels like apportioning blame in some ways.

It’d be much less of an issue if the topic were posted with generalities rather than posting very recent - and no doubt very painful for the family - examples where most of the facts aren’t known publicly anyway.

We still live in a ‘free’ country and have just ‘remembered’ those that protected that freedom, this allows us to go into our hills without any pieces of paper, as is/was not the case in some of our Eastern European neighbours, and to do so wearing whatsoever we like.

Like many I disliked the thread because it smacked of a know-better-than-thou attitude (a ‘instructor’ from the south coast somehow self-selectingly talking for a Highland MRT; the team in question has no problems with getting their view heard should they so wish ), who apparently knew nothing of the deceased, and was explicit in linking being visible to their untimely demise, hitherto lack of bodily recovery, and possibly their survival.  
 

Equally the general principle of being visible for a variety of reasons is a good one, and I would also defend the right of any and everyone to reach a considered position as to how they attire themselves. That includes those whom used to walk up glaciers in tevas to avoid wearing their plastics, or those that find it entertaining to occasionally do the odd graded winter route in wellies or trainers.

 In no way meant as a comment on the deceased, nor on those searching, but risking a negative outcome through ignorance, is entirely different than risking it through choice and I would defend the later, while counselling against the former.

I think this is a sad view to have. Everyone should be encouraged to think, suggest and discuss safer ways of doing things. The best time to do this is after a tragedy as the lessons learnt have more impact and are easier to identify.

Nobody is saying such advice should be mandatory.

You're free to pick and choose which ones to follow based on your own acceptance of risk.

 ...  ...  ...

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/series/rescue/after_the_accident...

I don't know if you saw it, Roger Webb of Dundonnell MRT published an article on exactly this two days ago https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/series/rescue/after_the_accident...

He very strongly stresses how hard/impossible  it is for rescuers to see drab clothing. I went out and got a high-vis vest straight away (seriously) weighs nothing and brilliant in winter 😀

This should keep you safe on the hill

https://www.funpartystore.co.uk/yellow-mega-morph-inflatable-sumo-suit-fanc...

I have a strobe light - small  - about the size of cigarette packet, and lasts a long time.  Can be seen easily in bright daylight.  Although I guess some of the modern headtorches can give it a run for its money.

An led bike light should be an effective backup to a head torch as an emergency beacon.

Just need 2 more dislikes to get to 100

Come on guys you can do it 😁

Thanks

Merry Christmas 🎅 🎄 ❤️

I am personally disappointed in the person that made it to 101 (as I just checked). Means either someone should redact their down vote or we need a push to 200

Your emergency bivvy bag should be bright enough to be seen. The idea of carrying an extra high-vis vest is a flawed one, if you fall over and get knocked unconscious or are otherwise immobile then you aren't exactly going to be dipping into your rucsack to put on your cycling gear. Wear bright clothing in the hills, it's really simple.

I've decided to walk wearing my bright orange bivvy bag with a couple of eye holes cut in for those inconvenient occasions when I'm being knocked unconscious. It's hard to move but I expect I'll get used to it.

Learn to navigate, do an avalanche course, plan routes well, inform others, check the avalanche/weather forecast, always carry map/compass/head torch with a decent battery, take crampons and an axe when appropriate plus use them before it's too ice or steep. 

Most 'accidents' aren't from external events. They are human error of one form or another. Prevent them and the colour of your clothing is much less important.

Kind regards,

A red jacket and black trouser wearer. 

Not to say that you don't need to do all of the things you've listed there, but...

I'm fairly sure most MRT call outs are for lower leg injuries caused by slips and trips, and I would count those as external events 

Inappropriate footwear, tired limbs after overly ambitious day, poor route selection or off route, no crampons, racing against darkness due to lack of head torch, poles but no ice axe etc.. having done SAR for a couple of decades I've seen probably dozens, many were preventable. But, yes, it's a numbers game have 10,000 days in the hills and statistically you might just be under that unforeseen natural avalanche, rockfall, or trip in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Edit. There are places which are known to catch people out, it's just a matter of being prepared. There is very often random ice on the paths out of lost valley and lochain for example.

You missed two ot the biggest factors in my view... dithering about and not paying proper attention. Being efficient and staying focused (until back on strighforward terrain) was drilled into us by a famous Scottish guide on our introduction to winter climbing.

Of course. I think many people start out too late. The first hour of any day is rarely too navigationally challenging, so getting away from the car when it's just getting light and you don't need a torch (or earlier) just makes sense. It's all about stacking odds in your favour, if all goes well, you top out early, the walk has good conditions under foot, you locate the descent spur quickly in daylight, then you've time for coffee and cake in a cafe. Win win! 

🤣

please don't take anything I say too seriously!