UKH

Hello folks, 

Been using an Ohm 2 for almost a month now and since using it the rope has developed the worst twisting I have ever come across. It appears to get worse with lowering. We run the rope through the lower off, run it out on the ground to get rid of the twists and then climbed routes without the Ohm and never had any further twisting. This has happened on a few occasions now. 

Has anybody experienced this? Or does anybody have any ideas to what could be causing it?

Ohm 2 is for use with ropes between 8.9 and 11m OD. Our rope is a mammut crag classic 9.8mm belayed using a grigri 2nd Gen I believe. Rope is less than a year old also and not been battered. 

Thanks in advance

Just bought myself one after using my friend's original one quite a lot in recent years. I haven't had chance to try it out yet but will look out for this when I do. Thanks for the heads-up! 

Are you still using the same belay device in the same manner as before? 

rope twists come about when the rope runs over an edge (or two) at an angle. some double-ring/maillon arrangements are a nightmare for this.

if it's definitely the ohm, you could try an make sure you're standing directly "behind" it and running the rope through straight.

https://edelrid.com/gb-en/knowledge/knowledge-base/how-do-twists-form-in-ro... 
No mention of Ohm, but IME with the original version I never saw rope twists that I thought could be caused by the ohm.

Grigri yes, I would say. I use a grigri and it twists my climbing partner’s rope (besides the other cause of anchors, etc.). On the other hand, using my rope (identical model) and my partner using an atc, there are obviously fewer twists on my rope. With the Grigri the amount of twist created is I think dependant on how you use the Grigri (ie the angle and position of the rope being fed through).

Also, I’ve read that using more than one type of belay device (say different belayers using different devices) on the same rope can cause more twists due to the different angles the rope runs over. Don’t know how true that is though.

Aye certainly am. Only change is the Ohm. 

Could also be that of course. Just weird how it's only been with the Ohm since we've started using it. 

Definitely not trying to slate the Ohm, just want to figure out what's causing it. 

Grigris put a twist in a rope and I'm wondering if the rope being somewhat taught and isolated between the belay device and the first bolt (rather than having the whole length of rope out to distribute the twist) is making it worse. Have you tried using the Ohm with a regular belay tube? That would be my first port-of-call, as then you know 100% whether it is the Ohm or the Grigri. You could try an alternative assisted belay device like a Mammut Smart/BD Pilot, which doesn't twist when lowering.

yes this happens with the eldrid ohm 1 too.  I guess even old ropes still have some twist in them that gets ironed out by the ohm. Can't say it caused any problems tho even on routes that used all of the rope. 

I've not experienced this with an Ohm 1 if it's any help.

Its almost as though the twist is being forced from the Ohm and down through the grigri as the last batch of twisting was forced down through the rope through the belayers dead rope hand if that makes sense. This was when lowering off.

We take the rope after and run it through to rid the twists, lead without using the Ohm and same grigri and it's fine. But with the Ohm it comes back. Very bizarre. 

Hope that makes sense.

Cheers

And the twists are being pushed down through when lowering off. Edelrid helpfully told us the twist is there before the grigri.

I can assure you we havent just climbed the route belaying or forcing through 70m of 9.8mm pig tailed rope.

Based on about 20 years of grigri use, I don't really find that. Not to the extent that I've ever noticed it like in the way you used to if using a figure of 8 descender. If you insist on pulling the rope over the side (the metal lip) of the grigri when lowering, then sure, the rope has to do a 90 degree turn and it gets twists. But if you just allow the rope to go in parallel to the device, i.e. it goes from you brake hand into the 'back of the device' away from your body, and comes out the 'front' of the device by your body, than I've never noticed it twist a rope, either on my original big grigri or on friends' newer smaller grigris.

I'm trying to see in my head how the Ohm could introduce a twist, I shall experiment when I next go out sport climbing. 

Cheers. 

We`ve spoke to edelrid and it seems theyre on the defensive. Saying the twist is already in the rope but to us it seems the twist is being forced down the rope to where the rope is not under tension. We`re not attacking it, we`re just trying to understand where its coming from. 

We have toproped the same route after without the Ohm and had no issues. Baffled. 

Good luck Toby!

A handful of twists allowed to distribute themselves along 50m of rope may not even register. Concentrate them in the 2m of rope between Ohm ang Grigri and you could have spaghetti.

I would be looking at how you're using the Grigri for lowering because, as mentioned above, if the rope goes straight in and straight out of both devices it's hard to see where the twists are coming from. Certainly doesn't happen to me with the first gen Ohm and Grigri.

I generally find it's the all-to-often badly placed/set up belays that are the culprits. 

Still bizarre as the only change is adding the Ohm to the mix. Same partner, same grigri and same rope yet this has only started. Of course varying lower offs of rings and carabiniers, etc.

Then lowering off the same route after top roping with no ohm and there's no issues. 

It's an odd one. 

By the looks of the picture you have, there are two changes in direction on the oh. You've got the one you can't get rid of because it goes through the device, but you've also got it off to one side. This is similar to how twists get into ropes when going through two rings. 

I would try to ensure that your rope is in line with the device when lowering. 

Tim

I went trad climbing last night with similarly sized (to me!) middle aged gentlemen so still haven't used my new Ohm  yet, but having splashed quite a lot of cash on it I'm now a bit worried because of what you've found. I totally take your point that for you it seems very clear that the Ohm is doing this - I'll just have to see when I take mine out whether I get the same effect. I'm sure I've used my friend's older one with my grigri with no issues, so unless there is something different with the newer ones, it's a bit of a mystery! 

More like this should prevent twists.. 

Looking at that photo, it does look like the Ohm is not lining up properly with the rope. If it was an Ohm 1 I'd have suggested it may have been back-clipped but the Ohm 2 is supposed to have a swivel joint so back clipping is irrelevant and the device will auto align with the rope.

Is the OP sure that the swivel joint is moving freely?

Yeah I was surprised it wasn't swivelling

I've never used the Ohm so I'm not saying this is the case but in my experience certain devices will not allow twists to pass through them and all ropes seem to have some level of twisting. Even 10 or 20 twists in a whole length of rope probably won't be very noticeable but then they all get forced to one end as they pass through the device it just creates a complete mess. 

Honestly man I'm on open book with it. Yours could be totally fine. Good luck with it.

I think the same. Combination of Ohm, grigri and parallel lower off rings. 

The Ohm is just a V notch which grips the rope when the rope is weighted. That would be a decent way to force any twists down through the rope.

Cheers Andy. 

Looking at that picture – and as a trad. climber – my *immediate* instinct is that it needs to be extended, more. That simple dog-bone is just too short and extending it away from the bolt would let it find a more neutral position and correct for the odd angles.

I'm no Ohm aficionado but I have rather liked the times I've tried out the Ohm 1 with other people who own them and I've been thinking about getting an Ohm 2.

Is that dog-bone sewn to the device or can it be swapped? Extending with some sling or other (and another Karabiner) would be trivial but I imagine that the result would not be quite as "nice" for regular future use, compared with swapping the dog-bone for a longer one or for a decent sling.

Not quite sure what you mean but it's designed to "bite" the rope to reduce the weight for the belayer. Moving closer reduces the friction with the angle but the Ohm is still in that position when activated. 

For the others it's on a swivel but that's still dependent on the next bolt and the belaying area. Edelrid have said alignment is not a problem. 

The odd angle is a feature not a bug - the Ohm's job is to pull down on the rope so that the belayer doesn't have to (as much), therefore the quickdraw attaching the Ohm to the first bolt will always be pulled up the way however much you extend it.

That's why the Ohm *must* be attached to a multi-directional anchor (ie: a bolt), obviously it would be complete madness to just put it on a wire, it really isn't a 'trad' device. 

The Ohm goes into the first bolt and is itself effectively the first quickdraw in, you wouldn't want to extend it any further than necessary or you'd be introducing (or exacerbating) a risk of decking out if you fall off before clipping the second bolt.

The Ohm 1 and 2 differ a lot here.

The Ohm 1 has the dogbone on a maillon and is very easy to swap.  The Ohm 2 has it on a bolt, presumed locktited closed and while replaceable is not as simple of a change.

The Ohm 2 has a swivel so it naturally changes angle to match what the rope is doing.  Neither one should be extended.

If you're going to buy one, I would definitely recommend you test the Ohm 2 before just assuming it's better than the 1.  For myself and the large weight difference between myself and my belayer, the Ohm 2 is literally better in EVERY WAY, except for the terribly hard catch.  I've switched to using the Bauer Zorro instead but if I were to buy an Ohm again it would definitely be the original model.

Thinking more about it and reading your reply – and deepsoup's – I see that my misunderstanding was pretty obvious. I can't think what I was thinking at the time.

It's a bit hard to tell from this whether you're rating the new Ohm or not...

I'll rephrase;

The ohm 2 has a very hard catch which is so detrimental to me that it doesn't make up for the other advantages over the original.

If I were to buy again I'd get the ohm 1.

I STILL haven't actually tried mine out yet (I seem to have lapsed back into being trad climber over the last few week!), but have you got any thoughts on why the catch is harder than with the original? I'm a wuss so rarely take big whips even sport climbing, but are you noticing this only on big falls or even with 30-cms-above-the-bolt semi-slump falls too?