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I've got a fair bit of climbing experience from Scottish/Lakes trips in Winter - Alps in summer - Himalaya in summer - Yosemite in summer, Dolomites, etc, but it was all a very long time ago and I've not done much since. At my peak I was onsite leading trad E1/E2 5c, and comfortably soloing Scottish Grade III mixed - overnighting in snow holes etc. Lots of fun.
A friend is now getting in to rock climbing. He's cruising trad onsite leads to S/VS now (lead fairly effortlessly up Nightwatch, Whitestonecliffe recently), and wants me to take him to the alps to do something big and multi-day and involving some glacier travel, snow etc.
We're looking at cosmiques arete, papillon on the aig paigne (i've done this before) and I'm starting to wonder also about the Frendo.
I'm 100% confident we'll be fine on the rock section but my friend's total lack of snow and ice experience - and my long sabbatical - is making me question the sanity of it. Some YouTube footage makes the top section look insanely steep.
Do you think given suitable warm-up routes for a few days prior, and some quick practice on snow/glaciers, it's a sensible target?
TY!
A friend is now getting in to rock climbing. He's cruising trad onsite leads to S/VS now (lead fairly effortlessly up Nightwatch, Whitestonecliffe recently), and wants me to take him to the alps to do something big and multi-day and involving some glacier travel, snow etc.
We're looking at cosmiques arete, papillon on the aig paigne (i've done this before) and I'm starting to wonder also about the Frendo.
I'm 100% confident we'll be fine on the rock section but my friend's total lack of snow and ice experience - and my long sabbatical - is making me question the sanity of it. Some YouTube footage makes the top section look insanely steep.
Do you think given suitable warm-up routes for a few days prior, and some quick practice on snow/glaciers, it's a sensible target?
TY!
1
In reply to BobHoliday:
I would look at stuff with less steep snow/ice, but more rock. Aig Moine, then perhaps the next day Aig Verte via moine ridge, if no recent fresh snow. A little glacier walking up and down, lots of abseils off the Verte though, but that might be better than climbing up exposed snow/ice on the Frendo and the steps back up to the cable car.
I would look at stuff with less steep snow/ice, but more rock. Aig Moine, then perhaps the next day Aig Verte via moine ridge, if no recent fresh snow. A little glacier walking up and down, lots of abseils off the Verte though, but that might be better than climbing up exposed snow/ice on the Frendo and the steps back up to the cable car.
2
In reply to BobHoliday:
Hi - I haven't done the Frendo but have been to that area a few times, so only a thought from me.
What would focus my mind in particular about the top part (Snow/Ice) of the frendo is that sometimes it looks borderline un-protectable.
If I was going up there, I'd want to be 100% confident that anyone on the rope is competent in the use of crampons and ice axes. A slip/mistake on that section is likely to be curtains.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, just my 2p's worth.
Hi - I haven't done the Frendo but have been to that area a few times, so only a thought from me.
What would focus my mind in particular about the top part (Snow/Ice) of the frendo is that sometimes it looks borderline un-protectable.
If I was going up there, I'd want to be 100% confident that anyone on the rope is competent in the use of crampons and ice axes. A slip/mistake on that section is likely to be curtains.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, just my 2p's worth.
5
In reply to BobHoliday:
Depends on conditions (how icy, how stepped out, where you can go due to crevasses - sometimes left, sometimes right) but to be on the safe side you both want to be happy on grade IV ice with spaced gear and equally importantly the snow arête section is not that steep but exposed and has no gear. It's also a lot longer than it looks from the valley. When I did it I hadn't done any Scottish winter but had done Rjukan WI4 and Gran Paradiso NF. Also bear in mind that bailing isn't really an option once high on the spur (but once at the top the descent is obviously as good as it gets!).
Depends on conditions (how icy, how stepped out, where you can go due to crevasses - sometimes left, sometimes right) but to be on the safe side you both want to be happy on grade IV ice with spaced gear and equally importantly the snow arête section is not that steep but exposed and has no gear. It's also a lot longer than it looks from the valley. When I did it I hadn't done any Scottish winter but had done Rjukan WI4 and Gran Paradiso NF. Also bear in mind that bailing isn't really an option once high on the spur (but once at the top the descent is obviously as good as it gets!).
1
In reply to BobHoliday:
Have you thought about the north ridge of Piz Badile (ok no snow but what a climb and line) ? bar the top scramble not included in the route it's all rock climbing D - VS 1 km long on perfect granite, there's a few pitches around HS / VS nothing awkward or necky for a VS leader and really very good line and climbing. Frendo from what I can gather is a totally different ball game the top bit can go to Scottish V (if you account for seriousness) and the rock pitches are loose. It's a very long route and you need to be moving fast through the more technical ground ( unlike piz badile where you only need to move fast through the Diff / Vdiff ground). Certainly not a route for the rusty or first trip to the mountains VS leader types IMO.
Also when are you thinking of going? Early summer is often better than late for snow / ice routes now a days.
Have you thought about the north ridge of Piz Badile (ok no snow but what a climb and line) ? bar the top scramble not included in the route it's all rock climbing D - VS 1 km long on perfect granite, there's a few pitches around HS / VS nothing awkward or necky for a VS leader and really very good line and climbing. Frendo from what I can gather is a totally different ball game the top bit can go to Scottish V (if you account for seriousness) and the rock pitches are loose. It's a very long route and you need to be moving fast through the more technical ground ( unlike piz badile where you only need to move fast through the Diff / Vdiff ground). Certainly not a route for the rusty or first trip to the mountains VS leader types IMO.
Also when are you thinking of going? Early summer is often better than late for snow / ice routes now a days.
Post edited at 15:00
3
Thanks everyone - I think we'll shelve the Frendo idea this year then.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
We're going for the last week of August (ish) for 7 to 10 days (ish). Doesn't have to be Chamonix area but I'd love to go back there for nostalgic reasons. You're the second person to recommend Piz Badile. Checking it out more now...
In reply to CurlyStevo:
We're going for the last week of August (ish) for 7 to 10 days (ish). Doesn't have to be Chamonix area but I'd love to go back there for nostalgic reasons. You're the second person to recommend Piz Badile. Checking it out more now...
In reply to BobHoliday:
Dolomites? Any number of big rock routes you could point yourselves out and less reliant on snow conditions and acclimatisation. There are routes easily as big as anything in Cham.
Dolomites? Any number of big rock routes you could point yourselves out and less reliant on snow conditions and acclimatisation. There are routes easily as big as anything in Cham.
In reply to BobHoliday:
The finish via the rognon felt about E1,5b to me. Mind you that was in big boots and a rucksack that was far too heavy.
Al
The finish via the rognon felt about E1,5b to me. Mind you that was in big boots and a rucksack that was far too heavy.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
sounds about right, but it was a long time ago. But there were lots of pegs in place (wonder if they are still there?)
sounds about right, but it was a long time ago. But there were lots of pegs in place (wonder if they are still there?)
In reply to GridNorth:
Depends on the exact line you take (there are variations), but that is probably correct for the final section. That is easily aided though, and the earlier sections are easier.
Depends on the exact line you take (there are variations), but that is probably correct for the final section. That is easily aided though, and the earlier sections are easier.
Post edited at 20:07
In reply to GridNorth:
The top rognon was by far the hardest and most serious part of the spur, when I did it in 1980 I don't think any one went up the sides,the only description in the AC guides was through the rognon. Picture in my gallery looking down from the top of the rognon to the ice arete
The top rognon was by far the hardest and most serious part of the spur, when I did it in 1980 I don't think any one went up the sides,the only description in the AC guides was through the rognon. Picture in my gallery looking down from the top of the rognon to the ice arete
In reply to Albert Tatlock:
I did it in the 70's. It seemed to be the done thing. I have always considered that done this way the Frendo was technically as hard as the Walker.
Al
I did it in the 70's. It seemed to be the done thing. I have always considered that done this way the Frendo was technically as hard as the Walker.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
I couldn't agree with that as an overall statement. But you might say that - in normal good conditions - the tech grade of the hardest rock pitch on either route is more-or-less the same.
> I did it in the 70's. It seemed to be the done thing. I have always considered that done this way the Frendo was technically as hard as the Walker.
I couldn't agree with that as an overall statement. But you might say that - in normal good conditions - the tech grade of the hardest rock pitch on either route is more-or-less the same.
In reply to Rob Parsons:
The length of the route is about the same which is why I did say "technically". The Walker is of course more remote which makes it a far more serious proposition. Without the Midi cable car I think the Frendo would however merit TD.
Al
The length of the route is about the same which is why I did say "technically". The Walker is of course more remote which makes it a far more serious proposition. Without the Midi cable car I think the Frendo would however merit TD.
Al
Post edited at 22:05
In reply to GridNorth:
The trouble with the Frendo is, it's so busy, and has a lot of big loose flakes, not a great combination!
The trouble with the Frendo is, it's so busy, and has a lot of big loose flakes, not a great combination!
In reply to Rob Parsons:
I think that the Frendo is worth a bigger grade than the guidebook suggests, but any hard climbing on the top rognon is quite short lived ( I think, it was 40 years ago ) .
When you add up the extra approach, altitude, far more hard sections and long descent, surely the Walker involves at least four times the effort and a full grade or two of difficulty.
I first heard of folk avoiding the top rognon on the Frendo in 1979.
> I couldn't agree with that as an overall statement. But you might say that - in normal good conditions - the tech grade of the hardest rock pitch on either route is more-or-less the same.
I think that the Frendo is worth a bigger grade than the guidebook suggests, but any hard climbing on the top rognon is quite short lived ( I think, it was 40 years ago ) .
When you add up the extra approach, altitude, far more hard sections and long descent, surely the Walker involves at least four times the effort and a full grade or two of difficulty.
I first heard of folk avoiding the top rognon on the Frendo in 1979.
In reply to GridNorth:
And a star.
> Without the Midi cable car I think the Frendo would however merit TD.
And a star.
4
2
In reply to BobHoliday:
When I did it the ice at the top was only about 75-80 degrees. Shouldn't be too much of a worry, though bear in mind it is at the end of a 1200m route. My concern if I were you would be the snow arete - obviously completely unprotectable so you need to either unrope or be 100% confident in both members of the party.
When I did it the ice at the top was only about 75-80 degrees. Shouldn't be too much of a worry, though bear in mind it is at the end of a 1200m route. My concern if I were you would be the snow arete - obviously completely unprotectable so you need to either unrope or be 100% confident in both members of the party.
In reply to BobHoliday: if you like I can put up a picture of the last pitch by the rognon. The problem is finding the way.
2
In reply to jcw:
We followed some grooves then I remember a line of pegs across a horizontal traverse into a sentry box for a belay. I can't remember the rest so perhaps it eased off. This traverse was very hard.
Al
We followed some grooves then I remember a line of pegs across a horizontal traverse into a sentry box for a belay. I can't remember the rest so perhaps it eased off. This traverse was very hard.
Al
Post edited at 08:37
1
Thanks again everyone for all your input. Frendo plans shelved.
1
In reply to GridNorth:
Yes exactly, I've been looking at the picture. From that sentry box one continues, as I remember it, and suddenly pop out round the corner on easy ground by the ice, I did it with John Brailsford who left his sack as he explored which caused no little difficulties. I was helped by a very nice pair behind. But the whole thing is what the French call paumatoire with false lines all over the place!
Yes exactly, I've been looking at the picture. From that sentry box one continues, as I remember it, and suddenly pop out round the corner on easy ground by the ice, I did it with John Brailsford who left his sack as he explored which caused no little difficulties. I was helped by a very nice pair behind. But the whole thing is what the French call paumatoire with false lines all over the place!
1
In reply to Rob Parsons:
There are a variety of lines. When I did it in Sept 2014 we took a mixed line up the Rognon as the left hand route was busy but it certainly wasn't 5b.
> Depends on the exact line you take (there are variations), but that is probably correct for the final section.
There are a variety of lines. When I did it in Sept 2014 we took a mixed line up the Rognon as the left hand route was busy but it certainly wasn't 5b.
1
In reply to planetmarshall:
I'm perfectly willing to admit that we did not perhaps follow the easiest line but we did follow the description. This was my very first alpine route, I was just a passenger. We bivied at the bottom and the experienced Alpinists of the party thought we could make the top that day so we continued past the good bivi below the snow ridge. They were wrong, so I ended up hacking ice from around a rock in the middle of the ice field as we could not get established on the rock because our mates got the best spot. I got frostbite in my big toe that night and was hampered by this on the Rognon.
I did the route again when I was 57 and experienced. First cable car up and last cable car down so it only took a day. We wore rock boots for most of it but that would not have been possible on my first trip as it was quite iced up a lot of the way. Followed more or less the same line and still thought it 5b on the rognon.
Al
I'm perfectly willing to admit that we did not perhaps follow the easiest line but we did follow the description. This was my very first alpine route, I was just a passenger. We bivied at the bottom and the experienced Alpinists of the party thought we could make the top that day so we continued past the good bivi below the snow ridge. They were wrong, so I ended up hacking ice from around a rock in the middle of the ice field as we could not get established on the rock because our mates got the best spot. I got frostbite in my big toe that night and was hampered by this on the Rognon.
I did the route again when I was 57 and experienced. First cable car up and last cable car down so it only took a day. We wore rock boots for most of it but that would not have been possible on my first trip as it was quite iced up a lot of the way. Followed more or less the same line and still thought it 5b on the rognon.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
I remember climbing some cracks or a groove a little left of centre, then a horizontal traverse with many pegs. Can't remember any thing beyond that other than a snowy walk - was there another pitch that I've forgotten, maybe not so hard that it hasn't stuck in my memory. At the time I was more worried about my partner who was starting to feel the altitude badly. Whatever route we took, it was obviously popular as we followed a pair of Glaswegians who in turn were following a French rope.
I remember climbing some cracks or a groove a little left of centre, then a horizontal traverse with many pegs. Can't remember any thing beyond that other than a snowy walk - was there another pitch that I've forgotten, maybe not so hard that it hasn't stuck in my memory. At the time I was more worried about my partner who was starting to feel the altitude badly. Whatever route we took, it was obviously popular as we followed a pair of Glaswegians who in turn were following a French rope.
In reply to Doug, Al, jcw:
This all sounds vaguely familiar! My recollection - autumn 1983 - is of four pitches from the lower tip of the Rognon to the top-out on the Plan-Midi Arête; each pitch was probably rather less than a full ropelength.
First pitch - mostly still on ice - followed the lower edge of the rock up leftwards to below a groove.
Second pitch went up the groove to a small col/ledge where the rock crest abutted the face above - quite possibly the feature that Albert's picture is looking down on.
Third pitch followed a line of pegs up the wall above and possibly slightly rightwards, then traversed up right to a constricted stance in a left-facing chimney/niche; presumably Al's sentry box. By this time it was dark and cold with snow flurries and a rising wind, so I was none too choosy about precisely how I used the pegs; so I'm in no position to suggest a UK tech grade or make a comparison with the harder bits on the Walker.
Fourth pitch followed a rising snow band/ramp back up leftwards - presumably a banked-up ledge or break; it was a vaguely visible feature that looked as if it might lead somewhere so I followed it. The angle soon eased and the ramp emerged abruptly onto flat ground on the Plan-Midi Arête.
This all sounds vaguely familiar! My recollection - autumn 1983 - is of four pitches from the lower tip of the Rognon to the top-out on the Plan-Midi Arête; each pitch was probably rather less than a full ropelength.
First pitch - mostly still on ice - followed the lower edge of the rock up leftwards to below a groove.
Second pitch went up the groove to a small col/ledge where the rock crest abutted the face above - quite possibly the feature that Albert's picture is looking down on.
Third pitch followed a line of pegs up the wall above and possibly slightly rightwards, then traversed up right to a constricted stance in a left-facing chimney/niche; presumably Al's sentry box. By this time it was dark and cold with snow flurries and a rising wind, so I was none too choosy about precisely how I used the pegs; so I'm in no position to suggest a UK tech grade or make a comparison with the harder bits on the Walker.
Fourth pitch followed a rising snow band/ramp back up leftwards - presumably a banked-up ledge or break; it was a vaguely visible feature that looked as if it might lead somewhere so I followed it. The angle soon eased and the ramp emerged abruptly onto flat ground on the Plan-Midi Arête.
In reply to BobHoliday:
Hi,
I did the Cosmiques Arete a few years ago (my write-up is on this site) and what got me more than the climbing was the scale of the mountains and the exposure. It'll be worth giving your friend a bit of time to get his head around this. It got to me much more than I expected and made everything feel harder than it should have done.
I hope you have a great trip
David
Hi,
I did the Cosmiques Arete a few years ago (my write-up is on this site) and what got me more than the climbing was the scale of the mountains and the exposure. It'll be worth giving your friend a bit of time to get his head around this. It got to me much more than I expected and made everything feel harder than it should have done.
I hope you have a great trip
David
2
In reply to BobHoliday:
The top section is easy angled snow/ice depending on conditions up to the Rognon. It may be quite hard 'black' ice in places. Exiting round the left of this is a few pitches of Scottish II. You can also go right which I suspect is similar grade. You should really be comfortable moving together on the snow arête (45-50 degs) to do it in a timely fashion.
The top section is easy angled snow/ice depending on conditions up to the Rognon. It may be quite hard 'black' ice in places. Exiting round the left of this is a few pitches of Scottish II. You can also go right which I suspect is similar grade. You should really be comfortable moving together on the snow arête (45-50 degs) to do it in a timely fashion.
In reply to GridNorth:
Oh, I'm sure you were on the right line. I was equally inexperienced at the time and we just followed our noses. The Rognon was in mixed condition at that time, it would not have been climbable in rock shoes - and as a climber comfortable at VS and Scottish IV I would have found iced up 5b rock virtually impossible (although I do remember a tenuous leftward traverse). As it was we found a very fine mixed line to the top at about IV just to the right of the left hand ice pitch.
> I'm perfectly willing to admit that we did not perhaps follow the easiest line but we did follow the description.
Oh, I'm sure you were on the right line. I was equally inexperienced at the time and we just followed our noses. The Rognon was in mixed condition at that time, it would not have been climbable in rock shoes - and as a climber comfortable at VS and Scottish IV I would have found iced up 5b rock virtually impossible (although I do remember a tenuous leftward traverse). As it was we found a very fine mixed line to the top at about IV just to the right of the left hand ice pitch.
In reply to planetmarshall:
This is just pure nostalgia for me (I did this route in 1990 or so) but I remember that, on the last section of the rognon, I followed an obvious crackline on the *right* hand side of the upper headwall. I noticed several other lines to the left, but mine looked okay, so I took it. I would give it (UK) 5b. At the end of the pitch, I emerged abruptly on the snow of the Midi-Plan traverse; i.e. the ground hadn't eased before I hit the top.
I was soloing the route and, for this pitch only, (as well as the 'entry' pitch to the rognon - where I *definitely* didn't want to fall off), I used a back rope.
From other accounts here it sounds like most people take that top section somewhere to the left of where I did. Maybe I didn't like the look of the traverse which has been described above?
I might dig out the guidebook ...
This is just pure nostalgia for me (I did this route in 1990 or so) but I remember that, on the last section of the rognon, I followed an obvious crackline on the *right* hand side of the upper headwall. I noticed several other lines to the left, but mine looked okay, so I took it. I would give it (UK) 5b. At the end of the pitch, I emerged abruptly on the snow of the Midi-Plan traverse; i.e. the ground hadn't eased before I hit the top.
I was soloing the route and, for this pitch only, (as well as the 'entry' pitch to the rognon - where I *definitely* didn't want to fall off), I used a back rope.
From other accounts here it sounds like most people take that top section somewhere to the left of where I did. Maybe I didn't like the look of the traverse which has been described above?
I might dig out the guidebook ...
Post edited at 19:33
In reply to BobHoliday:
We went left and it was probably Scottish III. I did it in a day, Autumn 2011 but we missed the last bin by minutes... the crux is definitely firing up the arete to try and catch a ride down!
We went left and it was probably Scottish III. I did it in a day, Autumn 2011 but we missed the last bin by minutes... the crux is definitely firing up the arete to try and catch a ride down!
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