UKH

Over the recent cold spell, several people have logged winter ascents of Moss Ghyll Grooves (VII 6)

Whilst no doubt providing some hard mixed climbing in outstanding positions, this is a route that is in the 'no winter climbing zone' agreed in the BMC white guide to protect high quality rock climbs from the damage caused by ascents with tools.

Moss Ghyll Grooves (VS 4c) is a classic and historic summer route with next to no vegetation on it that will quickly become damaged by repeated winter ascents, especially in the rime and powder conditions of the recent cold spell.

Should we be doing this?

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/lake-district-winter-conditions-guide

We shouldn't be doing it. 

If it's in the 'NWZ', that should be respected. 

Let's look after our limited resource, 

BB

I think the Lakes White Guide needs publishing a bit better, having just read it I’m a bit wiser than before. Maybe an article on UKC at the start of winter, and a link to it on the conditions page.

Or maybe the information should be transcribed to the routes database, like other access restriction notes?

Perhaps the Lakes White Guide needs to be clearer:

P33 "Where not to climb":

• Scafell: Moss Ghyll to Botterill’s Slab (excluding those routes)
 

Strictly speaking that means Moss Ghyll is excluded from the "where not to climb zone" (ie it is ok to climb).

That suggests that Moss Ghyll and Botterill's slab are ok according to the white guide.

It shouldn't really have been done. The no winter climbing zone on that part of Scafell is fairly well known about and I'd be surprised if the party's on the weekend didn't know about this (active lakes based?)

Its a tricky one as MGG is an existing winter route in the no climb zone. Its sure to raise a few eyebrows but I imagine there may have been a small number of people have been on this and been savvy enough to not record that they did it.

As these chaps did log it then it opens up the discussion on how to ensure people know about the no winter climb zone and to reiterate that there should be no winter climbing between Botterils slab and Moss Ghyll itself. 

Two obvious ways to get this information better publicised would be to get the BMC RAD updated https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/RAD/View.aspx?id=4552 I could help with the NW area but the Lakes is off my patch. Jon Fullwood would be the man to ask.

and the UKC crag listing - https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/scafell_crag-680/

The latter would update automatically if the RAD was changed to amber or red, but this is likely more nuanced than that. The crag overview notes could probably do with a one liner.

The white guide specifically identifies Moss ghyll and botterils slab as being allowed. Moss Ghyll Groves is firmly between these routes so not permitted.  

I thought this on the route descriptions for any affected routes + those restricted symbols.

To be fair probably a lot of people will not know about the White Guide and the current 2012 & previous 2006 Lakes Winter Climbing guides whilst indicating that the route is rarely in proper condition makes no reference to any restrictions so it would be easy to be unaware. 

I do concur with your sentiment, but the potential damage you describe pales into insignificance compared to damage already sustained on classic scrambles. Tryfan in particular is unbelievably scarred. It looks worn out. What would the BMC propose about that without alienating thousands of people?

I'm confused as to what you are advocating. Are there 'thousands of people' wanting to do classic summer routes as mixed climbs?

Exactly.  It needs a sign at the base of the crag, and at the relevant trailhead / car park. If there's accommodation nearby that most climbers use then they need to tell people booking too.

A copy handed out with every ice axe sale?

I thought the issue is about damage to rock etc. There are literally thousands of people winter scrambling which does an exponential amount more damage than a relatively few winter climbers, so why get worked up about a few scratches on Moss Ghyll Grooves, when literally hundreds of winter scrambles and walks are succumbing to crampon damage and looked trashed.

Until this morning, I’d never heard of the BMC White Guide.  I’ve been a BMC member for maybe 7 years of so.  To assume that people should just know seems an oversight to me.

However, I’m not a winter climber - I’ve only done easier stuff with a single axe.  But it is something I was thinking of get more in to.

Same here, and I've lived in Cumbria for the majority of my life, been a BMC member for about 15 years and being actively winter climbing in the lakes for over 10 years. While I'm reasonably aware of the vegetation issue, the no climbing zones is a new one on me.

Having said that, they're all areas that I either wouldn't climb on in winter due to clearly being more valued as rock climbing venues, or don't have the skill level to climb anyway...

On a winter scramble such as Tryfan north ridge, then if some holds get broken it won't really affect the summer ascent of the route as the hold choice is massive. The harder routes get, the more susceptible they are to damaging the smaller holds with axes/crampons and the more likely the summer ascent will become harder. 

The few areas that are specified as no winter climbing in the white guide are all areas of clean steep rock with little vegetation/drainage. There's lots of crags in the Lakes that are steep, wet and vegetated and entirely appropriate for hard mixed climbing when properly frozen.

Yes, that is a good idea.

I’d never heard of the BMC White Guide, which is fairly hard to believe but there you go. I only realised that Snicker Snap was ‘not allowed’ by seeing Ramon’s comment in the logbooks. 

Maybe they were used to climbing in Scotland where classic rock routes are a free for all in winter and just didn't realise.

They should have been adding to the increasing damage on Engineers Slab or Bowfell Buttress instead! 😪 

I'm guessing that Robert might have a view on Engineer's Slabs in winter... https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/gable_crag-521/engineers_slabs-269...

Not seen that before. I just got dragged up it on a tight rope in youthful ignorance.

My own view is that there are some classic routes which really shouldn't be tooled. Savage Slit (though it is beyond repair), Needle seems sad to me. I remember one prominent activist saying on here that Integrity would be fair game in appropriate conditions - I think it is a lost cause in Scotland.

Yes, the idea that one of the greatest, highest quality rock climbs of its standard in the UK, Moss Ghyll Grooves, should even be contemplated as a winter route is shocking. In most winters it will have an extremely thin layer of ice on it, mostly rime, with perhaps a slither of ice in the crack on the right. Crampons and ice-picks are bound to damage the rock climb. It's just completely unnecessary nonsense, with people fooling around with ice axes and crampons for the sheer hell of it. The big question is just why are people driven to this kind of vandalistic nonsense, when there are so many legitimate winter climbs all around Wasdale? If there's some big icefall or giant icicles on summer trad crags then ice-climbing is justifiable. Otherwise, to repeat, it's just vandalistic fooling around.

Yes, scrambles get damaged by crampons - but what does that amount to (e.g on n ridge of Tryfan)? Just a ladder of huge jugs that have lost all their sharp edges. There is no comparison between this trivial damage and vandalizing the relatively minute holds on the crux of Moss Ghyll Grooves.

Still, I'm aware that there's very little point in pontificating because a disappointingly large number of present-day climbers don't appear to give a damn.

The White Guide doesn’t seem to be well publicised these days. Partly because there haven’t been that many decent winters, so it’s all getting a bit hypothetical. I do think the White Guide is overly restrictive. People need to be sensible but it something makes a logical winter line, it should be possible to do it in winter. To that end, I think Ichabod could make an excellent winter route with enough build up (not trolling - and I think it’s a decent rock route but not a patch on, say, Phoenix next door - which, in contrast, would make no sense as a winter route on the top pitch). 

I dont feel the white guide is overly restrictive - its only a small proportion of crags that are partially restricted - I feel it's a sensible compromise balancing doing high quality winter routes vs preserving excellent rock climbs. 

Your outrage seems a bit late as the FWA was done in 1985. A remarkably strong team who did it then as well.

To all: there's a picture on Instagram of the ascent this weekend. It's in fine winter condition, but I guess that's not the main point here.

And what are your views now on Moss Ghyll Grooves?!

I don't have strong views either way.  If there's a strong consensus of modern climbers that says it shouldn't be done, then that should be abided by.  On the other hand, I'm not going to feel very guilty about it - after Brian's FWA in 1985, I believe a local Lakes team made a 2nd ascent shortly after.  Then I don't think it was done again for more than 25 years.  

Gordon is entitled to his view, but I don't think it's accurate to imagine hordes of people flailing away at the small holds on the crux.  If you haven't got very precise footwork, you simply won't get up the route.  What I remember about the moves on the slab is that I was concentrating so much on keeping my heels low & my feet still that I managed to chip a front tooth from clenching my teeth so hard.

Much like the legacy of pegs, we are living with the consequence of past climbers who wanted their oats now and weren't thinking about the long-term effects (or foreseeing mixed climbing becoming more popular). 

When Citadel had been done why not The Needle? If The Genie was ok why not Magic Crack? Groovin' High's been tooled, so obviously Sumo will be too.

I don't really blame anyone, it's a slippery slope of precedents. But it is a shame, when there are so many winter-only or crap summer lines to do.

Yes, very hard to know where to draw a line. Though it seems an attempt has been made to do so in the Lakes (hence this thread) - I wasn't aware of that.

To some extent, but I think it depends on whether a line is logical in winter. Of course some people will think that anything with a bit of snow is logical. As you say, winter only or vegetated, damp summer lines are the holy grail in this sense but there will be decent rock routes which also make for logical winter lines if they get a decent level of build up (so typically something that’s damp most of the year). Depends on the local crag ethics as well. I can see your point that it’s a shame though.

I’d say Citadel is a logical winter line as it’s got lots of veg and the lower crux relies on ice. Needle, even with the winter start, is less obviously a winter line but it does have cracks and a thrutchy chimney, so I can see that in the right conditions it’s a reasonable winter proposition. Incidentally, I don’t recall any obvious damage from winter ascents.

It will all be a bit hypothetical in another 20 years or so…

In Wales too as, IIRC, the Welsh White Guide asks for some areas to be avoided due to both rare flora in some spots and then high quality rock climbs in others. I was climbing on the East Face of Bristly Ridge two Sundays ago (which, incidentally, might be a better face for winter than it is in summer), but over the other side of Bristly on Glyder Fach's main face, the winter guide has an area where it says not to climb in winter because of the well established good quality rock climbs.

I also think that the big difference between the Lakes and Wales, as opposed to Scotland, is simply the length of season. On the basis of the last 8 years when I've tried to winter climb in England and Wales when I could, there simply isn't a real "winter climbing season". Of course you can only do winter routes during winter, but you might be able to do a winter route one week, and then be able to rock climb at the same altitude/aspect a week or two later.  So routes just aren't winter routes that much, or for very long. In Scotland, I know there are exceptions but generally the high cliffs are unlikely to be climbable as summer climbs for a quarter to a third of the year. I know that's not the same as them being in good winter condition, but still it a big difference. A route like The Magic Crack (VII 7) might be in that state for 3 or 4 months of the year, and only climbable as The Magic Crack (HVS 5a) for another 4 or 5 months of the year. That's a lot different from Moss Ghyll Grooves (VS 4c), which might only be acceptably Moss Ghyll Grooves (VII 6) for a handful of days in a year.

No, it's pure vandalism. Same on any clean dry summer rock route.

Don't destroy them with tools.

DC

Just to act as devils advocate, puts helmet on, what if you dont use guides/topos and hark back to the best sort of climbing which is exploration.  I still like to think of our activity as slightly against all forms of rules and finfer wagging.

Just saying, takes helmet off. 

If someone genuinely did something knowing nothing of the crag or ethics in the area then fair enough - as you say they were just exploring - but I'm not sure that is what happened in the case of MGG..........

harking back to a time when no one ever wagged a finger at anyone or gabbed on about what was right or wrong under the guise of "ethics" or "style"?

this rose-tinted nirvana never existed.

just sayin'