UKH

After recent discussions I've had with people I wanted to give my option on the British trad grading system.

In my opinion I think the British trad grading system is too complex and involves far too many subjective factors to determine a grade. The outcome paints an unclear picture of a route because there are so many possibilities that give the route that grade.

I think the grading system needs to be simple and focus on what really matters about the route. To me these two factors are the risk if you were to fall and how hard the climbing actually is.

So in a simple form why not have the E grade describe the risk of the route on a scale from 1 to 10. 1 being if you were to fall then your chances of injury or something bad happening are very low. Then at the other end of the scale, 10, would indicate that if you were to fall then the likely hood of serious injury or death is incredibly likely.

Obviously there would be a multitude of factors that determine what the E grade would be, such as amount of gear, quality of gear, runout sections, ledges, rocks, swing, chance of hitting the ground, etc but this would paint a much better picture of the consequences of the route.

Then you'd accompany the E grade with a french sport grade to determine the hardest move or sequence of the climb. And with this I think climbers would be able to more safely pick a climb that suits what they deem an acceptable risk vs how hard they want to climb. 

I think the current system is just too vague. Not all hard climbing trad routes mean little amounts of protection and not all easy climbing trad routes mean lots of protection but this is hard to tell and a vague guess with the current system in my opinion. I think this is more problematic when you are climbing on your limit or pushing your grade. I'd like to know if I'm pushing my grade whether the route I'm trying has good protection or if I'm going to be fighting for my life.

I'd like to note that some factors such as approach, access and egress, exposure, and how dangerous they may be shouldn't be included in the routes grade but instead added to the description if needed. This is because how much of an issue this will be is very subjective to the person climbing. If you've never been sea cliff climbing before then you'll find it a lot more daunting than someone who does it all the time, as well as if you are climbing on your limit you'll find the exposure will get to you more than if you are climbing well within your ability.

Well those are my thoughts on the current situation of the British trad grading system and ways to simplify it and make it safer. Thanks for reading this far and feel free to discuss your thoughts. Most grading in climbing is very subjective so no one is ever right or wrong.

I'm not reading that until you've read just one of the thousands of threads we already have on this. That sound fair?

Edit: Disregard that. Almost fell for it for a minute there.
Draw me "holding hands". Go on, try, I dare you.

It works exceptionally well for the majority of climbs and the majority of climbers. It’s also not beyond the wit of man to read the guidebook description or at a push look up at the route 😂

I’m calling troll

How will it make it safer? I'd say that perception is safety is also pretty subjective.

You've inspired me.... 
I just went to deepai.org and put in the prompt "write me a forum post that will enrage UKClimbing.com"

Some of the stuff it comes out with really is spot on, Trolling is pretty low-skill now:

Title: Why Climbers Should Stop Complaining About Bolts on Trad Routes

As a passionate climber, I have noticed a trend on UKClimbing.com where some climbers seem to constantly complain about the presence of bolts on traditional climbing routes. It's time to address this issue once and for all.

First of all, let's get one thing straight - climbers who choose to place bolts on trad routes are not destroying the essence of traditional climbing. In fact, they are simply using modern equipment to reduce risk and make climbing safer for everyone. Trad climbing is all about personal choice and freedom, so why should we limit that by imposing strict rules on the placement of bolts?

Furthermore, the argument that bolts detract from the adventure and challenge of trad climbing is just plain wrong. Climbing is supposed to be fun and enjoyable; why should we make it more risky and dangerous than it needs to be? Bolts can actually enhance a route by allowing climbers to focus on the movement and technique rather than worrying about gear placements.

Lastly, let's not forget that climbing is a community-based activity, and we should support and respect each other's choices. Insisting on keeping trad climbing puritanical and exclusive only serves to alienate others from the sport.

So next time you see a bolt on a trad route, instead of complaining, appreciate the fact that someone took the time and effort to make climbing more accessible and enjoyable for everyone. Let's focus on the positives of climbing rather than nitpicking about minor details. Happy climbing!

Let's not

Excellent idea and a chance to clear up the most vexatious subject on UKC forever. This is what I got:

"The rock climb "Three Pebble Slab" is typically rated as a Grade II climb. This rating is used to indicate the difficulty level of a climbing route and takes into consideration factors such as the technical skills required, the exposure level, and the overall difficulty of the climb. Grade II climbs are generally considered moderate in difficulty and may require some experience and technical skill to complete."

There. solved!

Judging by your comments, you don’t really understand sport grades either. 

Amazing. 

You're right there. Climbers take grades and stars far too seriously, remember they are only someone else's opinion., and look what happened with brexit!

In the bad old days grades were there to make you feel fat and weak, these days they are there to boost your ego. They don't actually mean anything. An old sage once said to me "there are routes you can do and routes you can't - just leave it at that".

It gets better... (I think I could pretty much find this one verbatim in the archives)

Title: "Indoor Climbing Gyms are Ruining the Sport of Climbing"

Body: 

I am absolutely fed up with the rising popularity of indoor climbing gyms and the impact they are having on the true essence of climbing. These glorified playgrounds are breeding a generation of climbers who have no respect for the outdoors, no real skill or technique, and who think climbing is all about flashy moves and gym grades.

It’s disgusting to see people spending hours in these artificial environments, obsessing over plastic holds and flimsy routes, while neglecting the beauty and challenge of natural rock. Climbing was meant to be a connection with nature, a test of mental and physical strength, and a way to experience the serenity of the mountains – not a sterile, controlled environment filled with rainbow-colored holds.

The gym climbers who think they are hotshots because they can send a V10 indoors need a reality check. Outdoor climbing requires real rock sense, route finding skills, and the ability to assess risks and make decisions on the fly – none of which can be learned in a gym. It’s time to stop the glorification of indoor climbing and start promoting the true spirit of the sport.

Let's get back to the roots of climbing and leave the plastic holds behind. Who's with me? 

Bring on the hate, gym rats. Let's see who the real climbers are.

Great stuff but ruins it by referring to the sport of climbing - the kind of person to write this stuff would never refer to climbing as a sport. 

Tbh I've never had a problem with understanding the trad grading system. I think its arguable subjectivity is one of its strengths compared to "neater" systems.

Respect for taking the time to set out your thoughts, but I'm not sure what you hope to achieve. You really registered today just to post your manifesto?

A personal favourite of mine on Rusty peg protected routes.

Rusty pegs may not be the most visually appealing sight on a climbing route, but they actually provide a significant benefit for traditional climbers. These pegs act as protection points that can help minimize the risk of falling, especially in more difficult or exposed sections of a climb.

While some may argue that relying on rusty pegs can be dangerous due to their potential for failure, in reality, many climbers have successfully used them for years without any issues. In fact, some climbers even view them as a reliable and trusty piece of gear that adds character to a route.

Furthermore, rusty pegs are often cheaper and more accessible compared to newer, more modern climbing gear. This can make traditional climbing more affordable and accessible for those looking to test their skills on challenging routes.

Overall, while rusty pegs may not be as shiny or reliable as newer climbing gear, they still offer a range of benefits for traditional climbers and can enhance the overall experience of tackling a challenging route.

Sounds like AI wants to kill us...

What a beautiful piece of AI pisstaking!

At first I read that and thought god, this AI malarky is rubbish, but then again perhaps skynet is playing the long game...

Actually better than anything a real person could have written. Comedy gold. 

Absolute swing and miss on the least though:

The best climbers car in the UK would likely be the Land Rover Defender. Known for its off-road capabilities and rugged durability, the Defender is a popular choice for climbers and outdoor enthusiasts who need a reliable vehicle to take them to remote locations. Other options that are highly regarded for their climbing abilities include the Toyota Land Cruiser, Jeep Wrangler, and Mitsubishi Shogun. Ultimately, the best climbers car will depend on personal preference and specific requirements for the type of climbing and terrain being tackled.

You can keep your Turing test.

Wow, just wow.

That was pretty funny.

But sadly it does mean that I will have to assume that all UKC posts from now on are just chatbots creating noise.

That makes me sad

What else would we talk about?

Kind of, standards of equipping have changed which has a large effect. Buoux feels much harder than Kalymnos. But if you remove 2/3 of the bolts from a kaly route and polish the holds to a similar sheen the grades become much closer. A bit of both is good, carrot and stick. One is never a Xx climber, one has climbed that grade at that crag, in that style.

An old sage once said to me "there are routes you can do and routes you can't - just leave it at that".

This is it. The overmuscled tufa wrestler may well go to pieces on a techy wall or run out on an exposed slab. The slender technician may find the opposite.

The wise climber doesn't attempt unprotected routes at an unfamiliar crag.

Sounds like Confucius.ai.com!

That was my favourite bit. Will have to remember this gem next time someone moans about rotting tat...

I'll just provide my usual answer to these threads and say it's seemed to have worked very well, most of the time for most users and that the grade, + the guidebook description, tells you what you need to know the vast majority of the time. 

Genuine gold! I tried to replicate this request on Google Gemini (albeit enrage bit had to be altered to generate a response)

Best Answers we’re both BMC related!

Is the BMC doing enough to protect the safe guarding of young climbers

Is it time that the BMC create a completely separate organisation to manage Uk competition climbing.