UKH

Hi there, I have recently found myself obsessing about upping my game from longish distance hiking and the occasional bit of scrambling / climbing (non technical, nothing with ropes etc) to hitting some of the big mountains of the world. Been watching loads of documentaries on Everest and K2 etc. 

My experience to date is not much - went up Helvellyn, Scafell Pike, Mount Brandon in Ireland, Carantoohil in Ireland and various other hills in Britain and Ireland. I have decent cardio fitness, did the 3 peaks in 7 hours last year and was able to do a 10 miler the next day without being wiped out.  I'd be fairly flexible too although am now 44. 

I am not particularly drawn to technical rock climbing per se, but obviously in order to complete some great treks / mountains, I would need to acquire skills to at least an intermediate level for some of the big peaks. I understand that many of the better known mountains are more about altitude and cold management / endurance etc than technical climbing ability but am fully prepared to be diligent about getting to a competent level.

I have decided to do Kilimanjaro at the end of this year and I pondered what a logical progression would look like to get to the harder of the 8000m peaks and I loosely came up with this: 

• Dec 24 - Kilimanjaro Summit (summit)
• Summer 25 - Elbrus (summit)
• Winter 25 Aconcagua summit (summit)
• Summer 26 - Mont Blanc summit (summit)
• Winter 26 - Matterhorn summit (summit)
• Summer 27 - Denali (Mt. McKinley) summit (summit)
• Autumn 28 - Cho Oyu summit (summit)
• May 29 - Mount Everest Summit (summit)

I turn 50 in May 2029. A bit on the old side but that's OK.

I am London based (Wimbledon) and was wondering what is the best / cheapest / most effective course of action to get my mountaineering skills to where they need to be to tackle all of these? Looking for as specific recommendations as possible - preferably if you are able to give an indication on time spent / frequency and all of that too it would be helpful. I would be supplementing all of the above itineraries by doing the mountaineering courses and also maybe practicing the technical stuff on sites in the UK or Europe (the Alps?). The fitness stuff I would be doing anyway and not worried about.

Please don't come at me with a flame thrower - just wanting to aim big in what I hope is an achievable time frame. PS, I'm single and am able to use all of my holiday exactly as I choose!

Cheers!

Brian

In reply to briansy:

The best and most effective course of action is probably not the cheapest. Do lots of courses, and hire a guide to take you out in the Alps - preferably one who will teach you, and not simply drag you to the summit.

You may not need much technical rock climbing ability on most of these mountains, but learning to climb to even a moderate standard will teach you ropework and familiarise you with being in steep and exposed places. You will be more confident moving unroped, or roped together but not belayed, and will be able to tackle more difficult terrain that way, which means you can move faster. This really means trad climbing outdoors - indoor climbing won't help as much, although knowing how to use bolts and fixed anchors may be useful. It's probably more useful to do V Diff mountain routes than to be able to flash 7a indoors.

You also need to be confident with ice axe and crampons. Again, technical ice climbing skills are probably not needed, but you need to be confident on fairly steep snowy terrain, possibly up to Scottish Grade II, perhaps more on some routes.  You will also need to learn the specific skills for glacier travel.

The hardest thing to gain is "mountain sense". That only comes from getting out a lot, in all terrains and in all weathers. It's more than navigation skills, its about being totally at home in the environment. Perhaps on guided trips this may be the guide's responsibility, but you cannot rely wholly on them and should aim to be self-sufficient to at least a certain extent. 

The great unknown is how well you will acclimatise to altitude. That can be hard to predict, and doesn't seem to depend on cardio fitness. It can also vary from trip to trip. However there seems to be no correlation with age, so your age should not be a barrier. 

In reply to briansy:

I don't see how this will help you reach your goals other than seeing how your body deals with altitude. 

This won't happen.

I would start here. Bit of altitude, bit of scrambling, plenty of guides, some exposed ridges. Ticks all the basics. And it's a beautiful mountain.

I would probably then do a guided trip in North India for a 6000m+ peak. Nothing complicated, and just work your way up from there.

Howard: thanks so much for this very helpful reply. 

Re: this comment:

The best and most effective course of action is probably not the cheapest. Do lots of courses, and hire a guide to take you out in the Alps - preferably one who will teach you, and not simply drag you to the summit

I have two follow on questions:

1 (courses)- I'm in Wimbledon, but can and will travel - can you recommend any specific providers?

2 (A guide in the alps) - would you have any specific recommendations for reputable operators there offering such useful services?

Thankfully, I have a decent amount of disposable income so can throw a bit of cash at it, but obviously I wouldn't want to be wasteful.

In reply to briansy:

Good luck but just to remind you, the last 2 on your list are a very different game. I would add a lot between the first 6 and the last 2

Have fun 

Edit, I have climbed lots of big mountains, been there done that 

In reply to montyjohn:

Thank you monty - I take it Elbrus is a problem because it's essentially in a war zone?

Your point about Kilimanjaro resonates. It's just a hike really. Partly, I liked the idea cos it's a nice holiday after Xmas! But as you say my time can be spent more productively. Thanks for your suggestions.

Re: the following suggestion:

I would start here. Bit of altitude, bit of scrambling, plenty of guides, some exposed ridges. Ticks all the basics. And it's a beautiful mountain.

Would it make most sense to combine the mountain ascent with a few days skills training immediately preceding the climb? Obviates the need to go all the way to Scotland to find enough snow and ice to do the training / practicing?

In reply to profitofdoom:

Cheers for this profit, any recommendations on an alternative (better) selection of progressive options would be most welcome.

There's lots of courses in the Alps that will do this, as well as doing some acclimatization peaks along the way. Crampon technique, self arresting with ice axe, glacier travel etc. There's also a selection of british guides and if you can afford a 1:1 then you'd gain lots of useful tips too. However, as mentioned above, there's no substitute for time in the mountains and if you feel a real affinity with them, you may soon realise that joining a queue on Everest is perhaps not as remarkable as a remote peak in Kyrgyzstan. 

In reply to briansy:

I would add 2 or 3 6000-metre peaks after no. 6, and then another 2 7000-metre peaks, between no. 6 and 7 in your initial list. Where they are located is up to you. If that was me I would do the latter 2 guided. DISCLAIMER, these are purely my personal opinions 

Again, good luck and happy climbing, wish you all the best 

In reply to briansy:
 

Why not go for a basic Scottish winter course instead? It‘d give you most of the technical basics you need for Mont Blanc; if conditions are good you could follow up immediately with a couple of guided winter routes, where you‘d also learn a lot and gain experience.

Just looked and it seems that this summer is booked out at Mont Blanc so will have to do next summer. Can anyone suggest a winter alternative that's a bit more challenging than Kilimanjaro?

In reply to montyjohn:

Which isn't an at all bad idea. If you fail to get up Kilimanjaro on the timescale of a guided ascent (as I would!), you would probably be best reconsider your further plans. There are plenty of lower mountains.

In reply to briansy:

it would perhaps be sensible to timetable in a trip to bolivia or nepal to do some trekking peaks? there's lots of providers doing trips to the Everest region where you will aim to climb 2 or 3 6000ers in a 3 week trip. plus, it's just a stunning place to visit.

In reply to Robert Durran:

The point I was trying to make is for the cost of flying to Tanzania, paying the £2k permit fee, plus whatever the tour operators cost out there, there are much cheaper, more interesting and better learning opportunities that also test your ability to acclimatise.

In reply to montyjohn:

Any good winter ones Monty for this coming December? Would be my first proper one. 

In reply to briansy:

Hmmmmmm.

You want to climb big mountains, and the only thing that activity has in common with a nice holiday is that you’re not in the office working. None of this sounds like a holiday to me!

Would it not be useful to spend some of your time having a hard time, so as to take the sting out of a bit of suffering? It’s February, the Brecon Beacons can be quite nippy at this time of year and they are under three hours drive from you. You could be going and bivvying out on the tops literally next weekend, learning how you personally respond to being a bit cold and wet. The Caledonian Express can get you to Scotland for the weekend, same learning experience on slightly bigger and wilder mountains. Even if you’re mostly going to be taking the guides and courses route it seems obvious that learning a bit under your own steam, about yourself as much as anything else, is probably going to be a good investment. 

From my understanding (I prefer rock climbing in the sun to grim suffering) time spent in the mountains is one of the most important factors in surviving them, never mind climbing them. Can you manage that? 

In reply to seankenny:

Maybe I'm a bit naive, but Kilimanjaro seems like it would be quite a pleasurable experience to me? Yeah, a bit of pain in the more strenuous parts, dealing with altitude and lack of sleep the night of the ascent but wouldn't have thought it was too gruelling. I fully accept I could be massively underestimating it though!

Well, I'm off to the Brecon Beacons at Easter as it happens. I guess I could bivvy on the tops, but do I want to expose myself to discomfort just for the sake of it? Maybe you're right? I think it's fair to say I wouldn't not particularly love sleeping out in the cold and wet but no reason why I couldn't handle it if needed. Any of the treks I'll be doing will be guided and involve other people building the camps which I know will be pointed out as a sub optimal scenario for someone who wants to be able to handle themselves in the mountains.

But you make a good point. I'd have to read a manual to put up a tent to be honest and I have no mountaineering skills of any kind!!

In reply to briansy

It’s not “just for the sake of it”, it’s for the furtherance of your goals. But also sleeping out in the hills is just great and lots of fun. All that it’s the process not the results guff.

Also perhaps it’s the “I’m going at Easter” mindset. Why not go this weekend or the next? Stuff to do, cancel it! Not got the gear, get down to Decathlon and buy some adequate kit to see you through until you know more. Never used a map before? Practice on Richmond Park. For a someone  who wants to do something that could kill them or leave them with life changing injuries, these small steps would appear quite do-able.

Have you ever actually done this, even as a kid? Because sometimes imagining a thing and doing the thing are different… 

I guess if you can completely guarantee that you will never ever be caught out in a storm or just get lost and need to spend the night out then it is completely sensible to leave it to Sherpa. 

In reply to briansy:

I wouldn't know about winter. Not for altitude anyway.

If the guides are all busy in Chamonix, why not do something like Grand Paradiso this summer? Sure it's not got the altitude of Kilimanjaro, but still enough to test you. Bit of a scramble at the top. A little exposed. Plenty of crampon practice. Sleeping in the huts so you get the pleasure of waking up feeling sick. 

Not sure how bust the guides are in Italy.

In reply to briansy:

For Everest and Cho Oyu learn how to prussick. Also you must be well heeled beyond the dreams of 90% of climbers on UKC and for this list I believe this is the singular most important factor to a successful outcome. Expensive adventure tourism.

In reply to briansy:

It's great to have goals, but it's possible you've underestimated how much suffering will be required to achieve them, and the motivation required. I'd tick a couple of the easiest ones first then see how you really feel, before departing with any cash towards the bigger ones. 

In reply to briansy:

Rather than jumping from 1 to 10, have you thought about something like a guided expedition to Mera Peak or Island Peak?

I did a trip to both with KE Adventure about 20 years ago - great experience.  You get to climb a couple of peak over 6000m surrounded by some of the highest peaks in the world.  You'll get a sense of how you might respond to altitude, and you'll (probably) have a great holiday as well!

https://www.keadventure.com/holidays/nepal-climbing-mera-peak

(Plenty of other companies offering similar, worth a Google)

In reply to ExiledScot:

100%. I know deep down I've underestimated it. Or maybe I haven't but I'm being hopelessly unrealistic about my ability to withstand said suffering. As you say, do Kilimanjaro (good to do a multi day trek, to camp out in some altitude and do a night hike) and Mont Blanc (get some skills in a few of those courses beforehand) and see what my perspective is after that. Thinking any further ahead at this point is pointless. But I do like to dream. As Sean Kenny and PhilB have alluded to, however, I probably do view all of this as adventure tourism rather than having an insatiable urge to master the art of mountaineering. But I suppose that's OK too as long as I am being diligent about the knowledge and know how I need to accrue to safely be in these incredibly cool places?

In reply to Dave Todd:

Hi Dave, absolutely they came up in my research. I was planning on doing some lower peaks first before hitting 6000 though and obviously the opening post is a very uneducated initial stab that I was hoping more knowledgeable people would pick apart and set me straight!! 😀

In reply to briansy:

I'd only ever done 'walking up UK hills' before going on the KE trip - same as most of the people on the trip.  We had around 10 days of walking towards Mera and gradually gaining height, with a couple of 'acclimatisation' walks built in.  So, you have plenty of time to assess how you're going.

In reply to briansy:

https://www.jongupta.com/

Is probably a good person to contact.

In reply to briansy:

Don't get bogged down with the big names. Find a guide you'll be happy to work with, and tell him/her you want to do a bunch of 4000ers in whatever weeks you can be there for, and see what they recommend.

In reply to briansy:

———

Get in touch with Rusty Bale at Snowdonia Walking and Climbing. He is North Wales based. I’d also really recommend ISM, Alpine Guides and Calum Muskett. 

In reply to briansy:

For Kili, don't do the most popular /coca cola route, do lemosho or northern circuit, it'll be less arduous overall(longer itinerary) and just a better experience in it's own right. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Was planning on Lemosho in 6 days which is on the shorter side but hopefully wil be OK...

In reply to briansy: Toubkal this winter could be a good first summit. Then Mount Blanc this summer preceded by a skills course, this would involve some warm up peaks as well. Next up a trip to Nepal to do something like Island Peak and Mera Peak(2025). A second trip to the Himalayas in 2026 to do a 7000m peak, Cho Oyo in 2027, Everest in 2028. Then if you are feeling really confident you could try and conquer Snowdon for your 50th!

In reply to briansy:

Some of the advice above is good, some of it less so, or at least less up-to-date and specific for your needs.

The most important bit is to try it and see if you like it and can manage it before spending time on big plans for a decade. At your age, with no mountain experience, time is ticking and you don't have time for the usual 'apprenticeship' that UKC loves, or even a shortened version.

The reality is that 99% of the 8000er and Everest ascents (and most 7000ers) are guided on fixed routes and if you get there, your situation will be this, and that removes the traditional priority of gaining technical skill and related things. To a point. The better you can handle yourself - cramponing unroped on hard ice slopes, descending rocky loose ridges in crampons, tying/untying, swinging your axe efficiently on short steep sections - the easier the whole thing will be. But unlike a younger person with big plans, you need to just get the very-basics and do them over and over again on actual high mountains, rather than the old method of aiming to increase your skill up and up on a variety of challenging terrains.

Northern India (Ladakh, Spiti, Lahaul etc for Stok Kangri (opening again soon), Chamser Kangri, Nun/Kun) gives much better value/weather than Nepal. Going to Island Peak/Mera gives you the Nepal experience that will be valuable for Everest, but it is very inefficient (and now quite expensive) in terms of actual climbing time on 6000ers. With IP you basically spend a morning up high and barely get over 6000m. It's a trek. Ditto Lobuche East. Bolivia is also good, but requires a bit more research, but at least you'll camp on the mountain and push to over 6300m to summit (on moderate peaks like Sajama, Illimani etc). Then do it again two days later, not just fly home. Peru is also good but many of the peaks are a bit steeper and more involved than the easier Bolivian peaks. Don't go to either in an El Niŋo year.

Scotland is lovely, and can be great for climbing, but can also be very inefficient in terms of time/weather, unless you're flexible and sorted to get the good weather at the right time with a suitable guide/partner. Good luck. Also, while getting out in bad weather is useful experience, the cold/wet dreek is not really what you'll be getting on the high peaks, so clothing/nutrition/mental elements are not as relevant.

You'll need to trial-and-error what boots fit, how hot/cold you get (above 6000m moving slow after a week of shit/no food, gastro and slow/fast partners) what gloves you can work with, what fits you, and doesn't, what you can eat up high, keeping it simple and tailored to you, not what the guide company sells or what some random on the web like me says is good. What you need for Denali is very different to what you need for Stok Kangri, even though they're similar height.

The timeframes most expedition operators offer are squeezed in to what people can get off work. Americans only get two weeks. These are really pushing it for most people to acclimatise properly - ie. enough to climb competently, not just survive summit morning with help, at their limit. If you have time, look for operators that build an extra couple of days into their itinerary. They are out there. Kilimanjaro is terrible for this, five day ascents are stupid and it's a wonder more people don't die, but it does explain the terrible 50% success rate. It's business, not climbing. Mountains like that can suck you into a mindset of doing what you're told and rushing when they say and paying through the nose for the whole thing, which to be fair is probably also useful for modern Nepal mountaineering, but not a good thing in general. Which is why taking your time in Bolivia, Argentina or Ladakh is better - and higher.

Contrary to what many believe, almost everyone can acclimatise to altitude, but far too many never take enough time, so they never really find out. There is a lot of bunkum about altitude adaptation, old wives tales, urban myths and half-understood pop-physiology, along with people justifying their own imperfect choices and decisions. Sort through it best you can, talk to climbing doctors and experienced expedition operators, then apply it to your own trips and learn from your own experience. Diamox will not make you superman. Take extra ibuprofen. Drink more water. At your age recovery and managing minor niggles and wear n tear will be more of an issue than for a 35 year old. Accept and deal.

Aconcagua is fine, the structure is all there and hillwalking technical skills are certainly enough. But it's a big cold high mountain so you need to be careful pushing for the summit in less-than-ideal conditions, even when guided. Some guides are shit. Everywhere. Again, look at other useful mountains nearby, that will both prepare you for Aconcagua and be useful experience, maybe even enjoyable(!) in their own right. Near Mendoza, the Cordon del Plata gives very easy access (I took a taxi once) to high 5000ers and a 6000er with no pesky glaciers and other high easy peaks like Mercedario or Ojos del Salado (though through Chile) might also be useful. And cheaper, as Aco is quite expensive now.

If you have an 'achievement' mindset and put the time, money, effort and thought into it, your list is perfectly achievable at your age. Time is short, get stuck in. Or you might find after doing a few of them that it's all bullshit and the most enjoyable and rewarding bits were going somewhere nice and doing something interesting with a good bunch of people.

In reply to briansy:

Lots of good advice here. I’d try to get to the Alps sooner rather than later.
 

6 days with a guide leading up Dufourspitz would be a good option. It’ll give you some good exposure to altitude and acclimatisation, as well as some climbing skills.

In reply to briansy:

For me, Kili was 5 days of nausea, headache, and trudging in the mist. The closest I got to the summit was when I flew over it the day I arrived.  It was an experience, for sure- seeing Colobus monkeys in the forest on day 1 was a highlight- but not a continually pleasurable one… I learned that altitude and me don’t get on, at least not on the acclimatisation schedules that commercial trips involve. I did get to over 5000m in the Peruvian Andes a couple of years later, but that was during a much longer trip. During which again I didn’t get to the main objective, a 6000m peak in the Cordillera Huayhuash- glacier conditions were too poor to make the route viable.

I hope that you get on much better with this- but it’s just to remind that it’s great to have ambition, but factors out of you control will play a big part in how you get on, and the mental aspects of how you endure hardship, and danger, will be key, and impossible to determine until you have been in similar positions. Time spent cold and wet in a gale on  Pen y Fan would be worth it to ensure you have some insight into how you handle discomfort in a less serious situation than, for example, high on Denali…
 

In reply to briansy:

Hard to know how to write this, so I´ll start with my own personal obsession story.

In 1990 I was 31, had rock climbed for 15 years, had a few Alpine seasons under my belt, and I decided that 1993 was going to be the year in which I would attempt the North Face of the Eiger. I couldn´t imagine anything more desirable in the world of mountaineering, or even in my life. That was the degree of my obsession. 1991 and 92 I successfully did some bigger and more serious Alpine climbs; I read everything I could about the mountain and the route, and had a good and reliable partner who was also up for it.

The thing was, I started to realize that progression and capability aren´t linear; the difficulties and dangers increase exponentially with each jump in the grade (Mont Blanc to Denali in one year for instance is an enormous jump). I could technically have climbed the Eiger route in 1993 given reasonable conditions, but I don´t think I would have been adequately prepared for all the many emergencies which the Eiger can throw at you. But I was obsessed, as you also are; I would have at least attempted the route, had I not had a major career break in the Spring of ´93 which necessitated a lot of work until the autumn. Family circumstances precluded any big plans for ´94, my son was born in ´95, and I decided that I wasn´t any more prepared to face the objective risks of serious alpinism (rockfall, avalanches, thunderstorms, crevasses, sudden weather changes) and I looked for (and found) alternative ways of indulging my passion for climbing and mountaineering.

I think that you should keep your obsession and your plan, your hopes, but you have to go about it in the right way. You write that you´re more up for adventure tourism than seriously getting into mountaineering, but that´s a potentially fatal mistake if you really do have your sights on Everest or even the Matterhorn. You write: "I'd have to read a manual to put up a tent to be honest and I have no mountaineering skills of any kind!!". Surely the first thing to do would be to do a course at a climbing wall, join a London climbing club and get out on the rock with them, do some easy UK mountain climbs with an experienced partner, do an Alpine course. You seem to want to jump start the whole plan, to get on the highest and most famous routes as soon as possible. You would stand a good chance however of summiting Kilimanjaro with a blinding headache caused by the rigid time planning of a commercial trek; or even worse, of being yet another unfortunate statistic on yet another Everest day gone wrong.

What I´m saying is: keep your obsession as a best-case plan, but build up to its realization in a careful and solid progression in which each new level is built on acquired abilities and on steadily growing experience. You´re not too old, you still have plenty of time, but don´t rush it. And I hope you´ll find some true love of the mountain environment and pride in your new-found technical skills in between all the big peak names; there´s a whole mountain world out there which can give you so much if you just approach it in the right way.

Guys - the last few posts are all great stuff. I really appreciate the input and the urging of caution / realism is noted.

Entirely fair, McHeath, that a bare minimum over the course of 2024 is to do a few courses and do some climbs / practicing mountaineering skills here in the UK. I am going to the Cairngorms for 9 nights in late May, Brecon Beacons for 5 nights at Easter and the Lake District for a long weekend in May which will provide opportunities to gain more rock climbing experience over and above just long treks up hills using alltrails as a guide. 

I can't do much til December this year in terms of starting higher treks / climbs in altitude outside of the UK as I have various trips planned already in the books and no other time to take off. But the point is noted, Damo, about getting out and exposing myself to being out in high altitude as much as possible over the next few years. Sounds like the advice is that the progression from 4000-7000m peaks (before considering the likes of Cho Oyu) should be fairly linear. Because of the time and expense involved in the 6000m+ hikes, I think realistically 2 a year for the next few years is my limit. It sounds from feedback that hitting an 8000m after only 7 or 8 significant peaks is borderline but I guess we will see after I've exposed myself to some altitude, camping in snow etc how I respond.

I've got a mate who lives in the Peak District - the below seems like a good place to start - maybe there will be options closer to home though. I don't know, I just know that there are no proper hills anywhere near me 

https://www.pureoutdoor.co.uk/activities/peak-district-climbing-courses?gcl...

I just remembered I'm also going home to my home county of Kerry in April. Probably the perfect week to do loads of mountaineering stuff.

In reply to briansy:

I like your enthusiasm, and the plan for 2024 sounds good!

You asked about alternatives to Kilimanjaro after Christmas. You might want to look at Mount Kenya, Africa´s 2nd highest mountain, which is not nearly as overrun as Kilimanjaro. December til March is the best time of year. The twin main peaks are proper rock climbs, but Point Lenana (4985m) is much more accessible and there are plenty of companies offering 5-6 day ascents, the most interesting and relatively relaxed seeming to be a 6 day traverse of the peak by the Burguret route, with good and gradual acclimatisation intervals. Prices are around £1300.

It´s a beautiful mountain, much wilder than Kilimanjaro, and if you reward yourself afterwards with a couple of days at a safari lodge you should have a great holiday.

In reply to McHeath:

Really like that idea, McHeath. Saving money and avoiding crowds is a double whammy.

Montyjohn said this in an earlier post:

there are much cheaper, more interesting and better learning opportunities that also test your ability to acclimatise.

Do you think there will be "learning opportunities" (I guess you'll know better than I do what that means) here over and above getting experience of trekking in high altitude? I'm also quite keen to start getting used to roughing it in tents and sleeping bags rather than huts or lodges if poss...

In reply to briansy:

If you get started, and throw yourself into it, within eighteen months you'll have achieved the following: 

- baseline of relevant skills and experience

- improved understanding of what additional skills you need

- initial network of people you know and trust to signpost you to those skills and to the experiences that you'll need

- much improved self-knowledge, particularly about what you actually like and don't like doing and what you're getting out of the experiences

What's not to like ? If you then decide that 8000m peaks are tedious snow plods with added coughing and you'd rather take a Big Camera on a Nordic snowholing traverse, more power to your elbow. If you've joined the LMC and find yourself bouldering two nights a week, ditto. It's a big, wide sport with lots of folk. It's not a technology development programme - you don't need a gantt chart in which you sigh because you summitted Everest in the late season not the early and you took three goes to get your 6000m tick. I mean, planning's OK, but feedback from real life is probably worth incorporating. 

Enjoy the journey. Or, if that's your style, just spend the money and bang out the summits. I guess there's room for that, I guess I've met those folk. Haven't chosen to spend much time with them. Or maybe they chose not to spend it with me. Go safe, 

Y

In reply to briansy:

No, not many. If you choose a route via the Austria hut you will be crossing the Lewis glacier (or what´s left of it), which has apparently become somewhat treacherous and can sometimes require crampons and ice axe; technically very easy, no crevasses, but you have to be careful. The Burguret route (which I personally would go for, it´s the wildest and least frequented route) uses only one hut during the 3 day ascent, but I should imagine that the two campsites lower on the mountain will be very well established and well-run.

Good information on Mount Kenya in general here:

https://www.mck.or.ke/rock-climbing-tips/mount-kenya/

It´s aimed at independent climbers and walkers, so there´s a lot of emphasis on the many potential dangers, but don´t let that put you off; Point Lenana would be a perfectly achievable objective, and you should be in good hands.

This.

I've been involved in commercial expeditions for nearly 25 years now. To be honest, I might suggest to the OP to get some basic skills and go to Aconcagua before doing anything else. You'll find out whether you enjoy being on a big mountain and how good you are at acclimatising. Whilst it's a serious mountain, if you go with a quality operator you will be well looked after.

In reply to Tom Briggs:

Thank you, Tom. This does make sense. Suggestions on a good operator?

In reply to briansy:

Tom will be too discrete to self-promote on this thread but he is part of Jagged Globe.  I’m out of date but they were definitely a quality operator when I did a Himalayan trip with them 20 years ago.  My instinct is they probably  have a lot of experience helping clients achieve the sort of things you want to.

In reply to briansy:

Jagged Globe!

We did Kili with them BUT we acclimatised on Meru first. I was sick as a dog on Meru and failed to summit but had no problem on Kili six days later.

In reply to briansy:

Tom Briggs owns/works for Jagged Globe - https://www.jagged-globe.co.uk/ - he knows what he's talking about.  He's probably not going to self promote on the thread, but I'd give them a ring, they've got a good reputation.

Damo is a seriously experienced mountaineer.  I'd definitely take his advice seriously, he knows what he's talking about.

Tom Ripley is a experienced mountaineering guide (IMFGA) and probably a good shout for someone to take you out somewhere to do a bit of mountaineering and you can see if you like it.

Other thing that's worth pointing out that you do need to be seriously fit to do any of this, so factor that into your thinking.  Also honestly, it's pretty dangerous.  I can think of better things to do for adventure tourism.

In reply to briansy:

Adventure Peaks have done well for me over a couple of trips. Nothing against Jagged Globe. Similar potential for progression and for advice from people who know what they're talking about/doing. 

Y

In reply to briansy:

 do I want to expose myself to discomfort just for the sake of it? Maybe you're right? I think it's fair to say I wouldn't not particularly love sleeping out in the cold and wet but no reason why I couldn't handle it if needed

I think yes. Drive up to Scotland this winter, preferably when the days are short. Bail out of the car about 11pm and pitch a tent in the rain in a bog. Ensure your head torch malfunctions. Wake up and trudge into a misty wet glen. Then you may see sun trying to burn through, and the sky will clear as you gain height and you'll wonder why you'd want to be anywhere else.

In reply to Siward:

Could I take a hot water bottle? That stays hot.

In reply to montyjohn:

No, it must leak.  Ideally it leaks slowly hence soaking all your sleeping kit.  Those are the rules...

In reply to mattrm:

Interesting point. What does 'adventure tourism' mean to the OP? Something that feels adventurous but is quite safe or something which has a non-trivial probability of you dying? Two quite difference and often confused definition of 'adventure'.

In reply to Dave Todd:

Precisely. And your sleeping bag will be a bit too short anyway...

In reply to Marek:

Semantics, Marek. I only used the adventure tourist term in response to another poster in honestly signalling what more accurately described me (at this moment in time) rather than.someone with aspirations of mountaineering mastery. I'm aware of the risks. And as I expose myself to challenging environments my attitude towards it will no doubt evolve! 

I mean, it's pretty easy to snear at someone in my position, I am just trying to use the considerable knowledge in here to inform my thinking and ensure I am making correct decisions on preparation and strategy. It may be that I say "sod that" after my first proper mountain and it will all be a moot point!

In reply to briansy:

I wasn't sneering - sorry if it came across that way - I just wanted to make sure we all understand that 'adventure' means different things to different people and getting the meaning wrong can lead to disappointment at best and possibly much worse.

So to my point, it's something for you to think about: Am I prepared to sacrifice my health and possibly my life in this pursuit? Either answer is fine. Not considering the question is foolish.

In reply to briansy:

Get a few winter skills, do a couple 4-6000m trips with any of those companies mentioned, you might decide why waste a month plus chasing an 8000er and a ton of money, when you can have a month in South America climbing many 4, 5 and 6000m peaks, with relatively less risk and suffering. 

In reply to Marek:

Thanks Marek, and my apologies, I appreciate you clarifying. The answer to the question posed is I don't know yet. I'll tell you later!!

In reply to briansy:

You don't have to tell us, just make sure you ask yourself the question. I didn't till I was stuck unroped down a crevasse after falling in on an apparently 'safe' dry glacier. Well, to be honest, I didn't really think about it till after I'd got out, but it did put a different cast on what had been up to that point just a fun 'adventure'.

In reply to Marek:

Wow, where was this Marek?

In reply to briansy:

Argentière glacier near Chamonix. When I was young, foolish and lucky. Still managing 2 out of 3.

In reply to briansy:

I would recommend some 5000 to 6000 m mountains in S America. You get some different culture etc, get an idea of how you will perform at these altitudes , apply your skills but without long approaches. You can also do several peaks in one trip rather than put all your eggs in one basket. This may be done with a commercial operator or independently once you have got the skills.

Be flexible....fun is the aim !!!

So much depends on your finances and how much time away you can obtain. 

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Hi Earlsdon, I took on board various bits of advice and realised that time and money will rule out knocking off loads of 6 and 7k mountains in between Mont Blanc and the harder ones like Denali and the likes of Choy Oyu. I'd need 10 years if I was to do it in a "sensible" way and that's pushing it age wise. I wish I had gotten this idea in my head sooner but I have been trying to play the top 100 golf courses in the world and that took nearly all of my 30s. Then I had some years dealing with the fall out of alcoholism and now with nearly 3 years sobriety under my belt I feel like I need something to give me purpose. 

I have revised my initial list. The below is obviously ambitious and as previously mentioned, it may all grind to a halt with Anconcagua if the expedition style grind is too much or not enjoyable to me. Sleeping at altitude too; can I go a fortnight on shit sleep? Or more? Maybe not. Maybe I'll sleep better than expected?

Dec 24 - Kilimanjaro (I think Mount Africa is more appealing but the additional challenge of the night start and longish slog summit ascent of Kilimanjaro would be good practice for me)

August 25 - Mont Blanc

December 25 Anconcagua

June 26 - Bolivian 3 peaks 

May / June 27 - Denali 

September 28 - Cho Oyu

May 29 - Everest

The winters of 26, 27, 28 I can do Scottish trips to get the sort of technical skills experienced in snow and ice that I will need on these treks but obviously the treks themselves under the guidance of good guides will be experience in and of themselves. I have the money to pay for good ones not that I'm insanely rich or anything. But I can afford it. 

These are long trips. 3 weeks, 4 weeks and 6 weeks in the case of Choy Oyu. And it seems like several days of leeway are built in to allow for weather. In some ways I think my age and lack of experience might help me as I will not have a cavalier attitude towards these trips. I will be more cautious with timings and listening to guides re turning around etc than more confident and self sufficient climbers. And if I am diligent I will learn the skills necessary to know what to do in certain situations from a safety perspective? 

The above is obviously a very optimistic take but I hope it doesn't end up being hopelessly idealistic / unrealistic- we will see what my threshold for suffering is. Time will tell.

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

My approach - got gubbed though and avoided altitude ever since.  The point is, it was easy getting out and down when things went the way of the pear.   Still a great trip.  

In reply to Fat Bumbly 2.0:

What does getting gubbed mean?

In reply to briansy:

Overall this reads like "I want to want to climb Everest" more than "I really enjoy mountaineering, of which Everest could be just one part".

Altitude does not suit everyone and I would recommend just doing as much mountaineering as you can and see how much you really enjoy it, rather than focussing on a five year plan from zero to Everest. I guess overall my concern is that you don't yet understand how much suffering is involved here; documentaries of risk people with no real depth of experience summiting 8000ers are everywhere, but that does not mean it is realistic for anyone, or safe or sensible.

Go carefully.

In reply to briansy:

Being beaten - in my case breathing difficulties and later pneumonia.

In reply to briansy:

I still think it would make sense to try Kili before or after Mont Blanc just to see how you get on at altitude. Aconcagua is significantly higher and harder, I know of people who did Kili with no problem but failed miserably on Aconcagua. 

In reply to briansy:

If your goal is to climb Everest in 2029, then I would talk to Jagged Globe first. They must have a lot of data on what clients have done.

In fact, their websites has a "six steps to Everest".

Their whole business is focused on people like you!

In reply to Pero:

Spot on Pero! Thank you!

In reply to briansy:

And guess what the first step JG recommend is Kilimanjaro as I recommended upthread!

In reply to Pedro50:

It does make sense. Three things: altitude, sleeping in a tent and the nighttime ascent. Obviously a very tame version of all three compared to the biggies, but I think a good place to start. And it's doable. Like you're not gonna turn around half way! I could see that happening at a Denali. Just saying sod this, I've had enough. But there is a flip side to the suffering and that is immense satisfaction and the experience itself of being in those environments. 

In reply to briansy:

Wow, I hadn't seen it til now but the 6 steps are the exact same as what I had decided (Mont Blanc been one of the in between Alps options they allude to). Replace lenin with Denali which is recommended in the document. That's awesome 

In reply to briansy:

Are you sure? 

In reply to briansy

Ok, maybe it's just me, but anyone else noticing a certain similarity in the nature of the OP re. current ability/experience cf goals? Ambition is one thing, reality is another. I really hope I'm wrong.

In reply to John Ww:

No way. Compare the writing styles, typos/lack of them etc. And if the guy who you´re implying spent most of his 30s ticking off the world´s top 100 golf courses, I´ll eat my climbing helmet.

I really appreciate the well meant advice given in good faith. On the other hand, I am quite disappounted by the thinly veiled snearing of many. Guys, you're grown adults. Is this what the mountaineering community is like? I'm asking honest questions from those I assume to be more experienced and knowledgeable than I am. Grow up. And please don't respond to my message implying I don't have a clue, am underestimating blah blah. You've said it! 

In reply to McHeath:

No, I agree, definitely not the same person, but possibly a similar mindset? I dunno 🤷‍♂️.

In reply to briansy:

The poster to whom I replied was implying that your account is a second account of another member here, who I‘m sure has never played golf in his life and whose posts often contain typos; I was just pointing thie discrepancies out. Nobody‘s sneering.

In reply to John Ww:

Pfft. And your mindset is the correct one, yes?

In reply to briansy:

Who knows? 🤷‍♂️

In reply to briansy:

I‘d say you‘ve got the best of UKC here; you‘ve had a tremendous amount of great advice from many very experienced mountaineers. Others with similar plans have fared much worse on these forums, but your transparency and enthusiasm have earned you a lot of support. I think we’re all dubious about your chances of success, and some have said that more bluntly than others, but that’s normal with any cross section of society.
 

Sorry, but you said yourself that you don’t have a clue about mountaineering. And the majority probably does think that you’re underestimating the scale of what you need to gain in experience and knowledge in order to have even a small chance of summitting Everest. We‘re talking about an activity with a risk of death or serious injury here, from small avalanches in Scotland to cerebral oedema at 8000m, which is what we’re worried about and which is why we‘re being fairly direct sometimes. 
 

So I think we’re all sceptical in varying degrees, but don’t let that put you off, just concentrate on all the helpful advice and act on it. And again: good luck!

 

In reply to briansy:

Total left field on altitude acclimatising, including a nice holiday. See if you can cycle in one day from Hilo to the top of Mauna Kea. This is the easiest way to do over 13000 feet vertical in a day. Other smaller options are Pikes Peak in Colorado, which is nicely civilised. Other glaciated peaks could be Mt Rainier in Washington state at over 14000 feet. A nice weekend climb with guides.

In reply to briansy:

PS Not sure if it’s been mentioned here yet, and you probably know this already, but a high level of general cardiovascular fitness is also important. You’re obviously hill fit, but a regular and long-term programme of long distance running/cycling/swimming at a relatively gentle pace will increase your red blood cell count, give you a better capillary system for your heart, lungs and muscles, lower your resting pulse and generally give you considerably greater reserves. Something along the lines of getting and staying fit for the occasional half marathon would be the thing to aim at; there are loads of good build-up 3 or 6 month plans online.

In reply to briansy:

I go on 9 mile walks 3 times a week and am used to doing long hikes on my holidays but I want to start upping those distances, carrying weight and with some proper elevation changes too. I used to run a lot but I have a slightly stretched ligament on my right ankle which if I pound it constantly will cause problems. Although the 3 peaks challenge didn't upset it last year and I ran down the hills there I am playing it conservatively. Cheers McHeath. Pretty much all of my spare time is spent exerting myself in one way or another. 

In reply to briansy:

I go on 9 mile walks 3 times

I bet that takes a bit of time.  Start running for some that time and slowly increase it so until you can run the whole distance.

In reply to briansy:

I'm no mountaineer so can't give you any real advice on your plans but I wish you well with it. There's nothing wrong with ambitious goals so I say go for it and see what happens! Look forward to seeing your progress on the forum 👍

In reply to lowersharpnose:

I can defo run it no problem. I just don't want to pound my weak ankle. Walking is far less poundage. It's good podcast and audiobook time 

In reply to briansy:

I've been thinking about what Tom Briggs has advised above to just go straight to Anconcagua and do the big mountain experience - spending over a fortnight in tents in altitude will be a big change from any hiking trip I've ever been on and I may end up hating it (and can thus amend my ambitions accordingly!). I am hoping I will find the full immersion in nature a joyous change of pace from my usually carefully crafted trips which would involve plenty of outdoor hours for sure - but staying in nice hotels and eating in nice restaurants etc and never really switching off. Can I get a chorus of approval for this plan please?! 🙏 😁

In reply to briansy:

Have you considered other peaks in the High Andes besides Aconcagua? It's a very busy mountain in peak season, whereas most other peaks are very quiet. I saw hardly anybody on Mercedario in January for example and it was very easy to reach. Depends what you want from a trip I guess. Or what you feel you need from a guided trip. A lot of the peaks are facile difficulty. John Biggar's guidebook is excellent for ideas and planning. You'd definitely get a lot out of visiting the High Andes in terms of experience. It's easier to get fairly high there compared to other parts of the world, but not to be underestimated. I was somewhat caught out by the amount of wind and how cold it was and I've done quite a few trips to other high ranges. A lot of the peaks are essentially walking in terms of technical difficulties but they are definitely not 'just a walk'. 

In reply to briansy:

Hi Brian. I might have given different advice 15 years ago. When Rich Parks (ex Welsh Rugby International) emailed me in 2009 saying he wanted to climb the Seven Summits having done no mountaineering, we sent him off to the Alps to do some training in Arolla and an ascent of Mont Blanc, before going to Ecuador later that year to see how he got on at 6000m. Quite a gentle introduction given the infrastructure in Ecuador (he probably only camped one or two nights on that first expedition). However, he genuinely got really into the outdoors and expeditions and did what he set out to do before switching his focus to Polar trips. I've also had other people say they want to build up to Everest and then decide after a week stuck in a tent on Denali in -30c that actually they don't really enjoy expedition mountaineering. Lots of people will limited experience go to Aconcagua. I reckon most of them then move onto something else afterwards. I suppose my view is if you perform well on Aconcagua in terms of your ability to acclimatise and you enjoy learning to look after yourself in that environment, then you might consider continuing with your plans and then working more on your technical skills. Equally, you might find you really struggle carrying loads, or you're not a particularly good acclimatiser, or being in tents for long periods in incessant winds drives you bonkers.

Can I ask people what they think of the following training protocol - starting for Aconcagua and being applicable to any "big" mountain. I don't like cycling and I don't run anymore as it's too much repetitive pounding on my right ankle - which it can take up to a point. I want to have a routine that's realistic and achievable, but also clear cut - I also want to be mindful of recovery time especially on legs after strength work given my endurance work with a weighted backpack will essentially be a strength component also. The walking portion is what I do already so that's a start. Adding 40-50 pounds I would do maybe once my legs starting experiencing less protracted DOMS from those initial work outs?

Thoughts?

Sunday - 13-15 miles with rucksack and elevation change - I don't live near many big hills but Box Hill in Surrey, the Seven sisters 14 mile walk from Seaford to Eastbourne both spring to mind as opportunities to go up and down

Monday - Strength: Upper body 1  + but of core

Tuesday - 9 miles with rucksack

Wednesday - Strength: legs  + bit of core

Thursday - Strength: Upper body 2 

Friday - 10 miles hike no backpack

Saturday - rest 

In reply to briansy:

Just listening to the training for mountaineering podcast with Rowan Smith and thinking how badly he would scoff at the above post. As I don't appear to be able to edit it or delete it, I'm just dropping that in here to avoid any naked derision!

I see the altitude centre in London does an initial assessment so you have a starting point to work from in terms of physiological metrics - I think those guys will be best to direct me to a PT that can focus sessions and advice specifically on mountaineering. Any comments on their pre- acclimatisation sessions / methods and their efficacy would be greatly appreciated

In reply to briansy:

Thoughts? …

Not enough climbing 😀… joking aside I’d drop the second strength session and focus on rest/flexibility. But I’m getting old of course.

In reply to Wimlands:

Wise. At 44, the above is pretty tough going with only one rest day. 

In reply to briansy:

I think you need some more Zone 2 work to build up your mitochondria and base fitness.

Have you seen a physio about your ankle. Sorting that could really help.

In reply to montyjohn:

Hi Monty, would power walking be zone 2? Or would I really need to be running at a steadyish pace to get there? I will definitely choose a PT carefully so I can establish a correct and sustainable course of action. Hopefully the altitude centre know some good mountaineering focused guys. 

Yes, have seen a physio for my ankle, we did various exercises on it about 5 years ago now and it hasn't been a problem since. No pain although I could feel it the day after the 3 peaks challenge which was a fair old workout for it - but because ultimately the tendon is really stretched, the only thing I can do is either (a) not put insane amounts of pressure on it or (b) wear a brace. It's hyper mobile as it is due to ligament laxity. Walking and scrambling seem fine, it's the running it doesn't like. I manage it well and it's not been a problem on some tricky scrambles but it's in the back of my head for sure. 

In reply to briansy:

I just told my brother I planned to do Anconcagua this December and he strenuously objected. His view was: you could get acute altitude sickness very suddenly in a precarious spot high up the mountain where it would be hard to get help. My understanding was that better operators do 21 day itineraries to ensure acclimatisation and that the various protocols are in place to reduce the chances of such a thing happening? Obviously it can happen to anyone but is it not usually a function of going too high too fast?

In reply to briansy:

Does your brother actually know anything about the subject?

In reply to McHeath:

He's summited Aconcagua and has done a few slightly smaller peaks in South America. He is no expert, but has more experience than me! I'm just sense checking his words really and general understandings on altitude, the relationship with time taken to acclimate and whether it is (I wasn't aware that it was and my bro may well be mistaken here) the case that for some people acclimatisation is not really possible at certain heights regardless of time spent.

In reply to briansy:

If they haven't already been mentioned previously in the thread (I've just skimmed quite a bit), Steve House's Training for the New Alpinism and Uphill Athlete books could be worth a read. They're aimed at just the sort of thing you're looking at, and more

In reply to briansy:

It would probably need to be hilly power walking unless you're very good at speed walking.

If you can do that, great, but for some reason I find walking fast for a long time very difficult. A slow jog for me is much easier and more comfortable.

I would say a follow up physio is definitely worth while for an MOT.

In reply to briansy:

Zone 2 is 60-70% of your heart rate max; with a max of 180 (which would be around normal for your age; could be significantly higher or lower though) this would mean ca. 108-126.

You´d probably reach this with uphill power walking, as montyjohn has said; it would however drop on the downhill bits, so you wouldn´t get the desired effect, which requires a steady state for longer periods of time. There´s loads about this on the Net.

My first thought on reading your proposed plan was also that the cardio part of it is not going to be effective, because large parts of it are simply not strenuous enough.

In reply to McHeath:

I think my ticker works differently to normal people.

When I did a drift test, I tried at at 130, 135 and 140 and my zone 2 limit was quite clearly 140 which is close to 80% of my max heart rate.

I've been told that my max heart rate must be higher than 180, but I'm doubtful. The drift test aligns aligns with my experience, where at school I was probably bottom 20% at 100m sprint, but top 10% at cross country. 

As long as the the effort is moderate I can go a long time, go slightly over and I'm done.

Would love to get this verified in a lab or whatever as it seems a little unordinary.

In reply to montyjohn:

Yes, my heart behaves the same! I used to do long slow runs in marathon training, up to 3,5h, and my heart rate would also approach 80%, even though I could talk comfortably to my partner the whole time. The formula: max heart rate = 220-age also didn´t work for me; at 40 I had a mhr of 196, with resting pulse 42, and now at 64 it´s 178. Never had any problems though, either in training or in races.

This is great info on the zones, thanks guys.

Any comments on the altitude point? I.e. can altitude questions almost always be solved by adding time? Or are certain people simply singularly incapable of functioning above a certain level? I thought it was the former but curious to hear any views.

In reply to briansy:

There’s no rule of thumb with altitude, you’ll just have to find out for yourself how you cope

In reply to briansy:

Altitude does affect different people differently, even if they're similarly fit.

I'm sure that everyone has a genetic altitude ceiling that they won't be able to go past without getting ill even if they acclimatise lots, much as everyone has a genetic potential in everything e.g. there is no way that even if my whole life had been dedicated to sprinting I'd be as fast as Usain Bolt. I have no idea where the average altitude ceiling is unfortunately. It would be interesting to know from the big organisations what proportion of people turn back for altitude reasons on 7000m peaks and to know how much length of acclimatisation time changes that number.

From what I've read and know from friends I think you'd be unlucky not to get at least quite high on Aconcagua on a 21 day itinerary, more time certainly helps with acclimatisation. Though I speak from a position of personal ignorance on high altitude mountaineering, highest I've been being around 4500m.

In reply to briansy:

There's no such thing as being able to "ensure acclimatisation". You can only improve your chances and you still might not manage!

Going up slowly helps, going up and sleeping lower helps, but none of it is a guarantee.

Also, none of youth, fitness or prior high altitude experience guarantee acclimatisation on any given trip.

In reply to briansy:

 

I don’t get this; why should he think that you would be in any more danger than he himself was when he summited Aconcagua, did he have any bad experiences?

In reply to McHeath:

I think a bit of ego in there - he built up gradually to higher altitudes so why do you think you can skip that? Also, the main rationale was committing to a big expensive trip and being turned around fairly early - but I think on a deliberately slow / long expedition (his was only 12 days) that is unlikely til much later on? And a good guide would be firm in their convictions?

In reply to briansy:

That was my suspicion I wouldn´t worry about it!

Yes, having a lot more time for acclimatisation would certainly help to tip the scales your way.

In reply to briansy:

No flamethrowers here. I like to hear of people being keen for adventure so good luck! It is doable and you seem to be putting thought into it. Can’t really add to the good advice (esp the post by Damo).

There is an Andy K post that springs to mind though. I appreciate it’s maybe not very helpful but it is relevant. And possibly will become more so as you go through the list.

https://trekandmountain.com/2018/05/01/andy-kirkpatrick-big-e-go/

In reply to tistimetogo:

I like it and have that in my mind all the time. I have 4 windows of Scottish winters - 10 days post Xmas and New Year's in 2025, 26, 27, 28. Opportunities to gain some experience of roughing it a bit and doing some quality skills related / more technical things. Question is, is that too early for proper snow and ice? Global warming impacting things too of course.

Any thoughts on what those trips might look like specifically? I'm clueless so need a framework of sorts in my head. I'm off to Ballater for 8 nights hiking in May so will hopefully have a chance to do some on the ground research. 

In reply to briansy:

You will get bad weather. Scotland is great for learning to deal with bad conditions. I've rarely placed screws in Scotland or had good winter conditions for ice climbing (it's always been very mixed) but walking/camping and scrambling there in winter would teach you a lot about dealing with cold and stormy conditions. This doesn't mean it's not fun. Plenty of ways to practice basic technical skills there like nav, ropework and basic climbing. It just might require wearing a ski mask in a blizzard.

To learn technical rope skills I'd suggest hiring a local guide there if you've no one else showing you. You can learn yourself but a guide would speed up the learning curve and keep you from getting avalanched. 

If I wanted to learn how to ice climb in good conditions I'd go to the Alps or Norway for guaranteed ice. Weirdly, for your training, long Scottish winter days out might be better preparation. I've always gone in Feb to either Fortwilliam or Cairngorms and always been able to get out crampons and axe for something. 

In reply to briansy:

I'm currently due to be in Shropshire for 4 days hiking in May bank holiday. I think it would be better to use the time and go on an outdoor climbing course. Does anyone have a view on the best place to do it in England (or Wales) to get a really good starting point in 4 days?

In reply to briansy:

This, for instance:

https://pyb.co.uk/course/introduction-to-rock-climbing-5-day/

Maybe worth doing a shorter introductory course at a wall near you before committing to the full 5 days?
 

In reply to briansy:

With Aconcagua you could always go out early if you have the time.  Your group will start from Mendoza. The road from there goes up into the Andes and passes the point you enter the nacional parque and begin the trek in.  Couple of base camps around 4,200m unless things have changed since I was there 23 years ago.  
 

Anyway there are some high villages up there, Los Penitentes being one.  It’s a ski resort, but you’d be there out of season. You can get a bus there and there is a hotel you can stay.  Depends how confident you are independently travelling.  Get a land only price if you decide on that, and arrange your own flights.  

In reply to McHeath:

I like this McHeath and from the below it seems to be fairly comprehensive?

"We’ll show you what climbing’s all about; we’ll go bouldering, sport climbing, trad climbing, and multi-pitch climbing"

Something like the below not being as comprehensive?

https://www.pureoutdoor.co.uk/activity/peak-district-climbing-courses/indoo...

I guess I don't know what I'm looking for. I don't want to spend more time than I need to acquiring pure technical climbing skills - will this 5 day course followed by a "winter course" more or less cover me for what I'll need on the big mountains (none of the ones I've identified - including Everest - appear to be that technical)? Sorry, it's just that there are loads of these courses 1 day, 2 day, single pitch, multi pitch, trad climbing etc and people on this thread are (very helpfully) suggesting I get "skills" but I just don't know what that means, very specifically, for my purposes?

In reply to briansy:

The thing is, it´s not enough just to learn the principles once; you have to have used them enough in practice so that they become second nature. These two courses would give you more than you need for anything on the Mont Blanc normal route, and there´s no rock climbing on either Aconcagua or Everest, but it´s also about things like knowing and using your knots, being able to abseil if you have to in an emergency, getting to be at home standing around/climbing with a big drop beneath you, getting to use muscles which you´d otherwise never have used in that way. Also: going on a Scottish winter or Alpine course without being acquainted with these basics would very much be jumping the gun.

It´s way better to have a comfortable reservoir of skills than to have just practised the bare minimum a couple of times. For example: if you have to do some scrambling on Mont Blanc, you´re going to do it more safely, more confidently and above all faster if you´ve already led a couple of Severes.

Note that the Peak courses are for those wishing to transfer from indoor to outdoor climbing; they´re not for absolute newbies to climbing, whereas PyB starts you off with the very basics (bouldering, knots etc.)

In reply to McHeath:

Makes perfect sense. A 4-5 day course with weekend trips to North Wales a few times a year to put these skills into practice with an instructor and perhaps build on them? And then the winter stuff in Scotland...

In reply to briansy:

We’d all be very proud of you 😊

In reply to briansy:

When I was training for a 3 week expedition back in 2019, I pretty much concentrated on legs and cardio. I joined a gym for the first time in about 15 years so that I could optimise this. Lots of inclined walking and jogging, leg press etc, with other days hiking with a heavy-ish backpack (around 15kg) - although I'm very fortunate to have lots of hills around me. I found this worked exceptionally well and at 40 years old I was the oldest by about 8 years on the expedition, but easily the fittest (imo). In fact when the others were having rest days, I did some extra portaging of equipment to ABC as I felt absolutely fine. Acclimatised fine too, whether this was just down to good luck or training is unknown but I certainly wasn't having to suck in the air as much as the others. 

Peaks were about 5000m, so not as high as Aconcagua FYI. But I do think, the more hill work you can do, the better prepared your body will be.

In reply to briansy:

Roesberry Topping->Matterhorn->Aba Dablam

In reply to magma:

You need Cnicht as #2 in that sequence, then another -alike, lest the progression be too steep.

In reply to briansy:

Just about to push the button on Aconcagua - additional costs of personal porter (20KG) is 1295 dollars. I don't think I should bother with this? Feels like if I can't carry an extra 20kg up the mountain what am I even doing there? Or am I being way too blazee on that point?

In reply to briansy:

I wouldn't want to carry 20kg, but I don't think you need to.

I find that at 20kg my balance is hugely affected and I fatigue really quickly.

At 15kg I'm pretty good, so I would be looking for ways to keep your bag to 15kg or less. Only time I've had 20kg on my back was in Papua New Guinea and it was mainly food so didn't stay that heavy for long.

You may be better at carrying heavy loads but I know my limitations.

I wouldn't go with a porter.

In reply to briansy:

Thanks Monty, yes, I think limiting weight of my belongings is the way to go. 

In reply to briansy:

What you are doing there is testing yourself on the mountain, finding out how well you acclimatise, how well you cope with the long days and conditions, how your fitness translates etc.

Spend the money this time.

In reply to briansy:

Hi guys, has anyone ever used adventure peaks? My preference was jagged globe but the dates didn't work out and wondering if anyone knows of these guys / has any positive (or negative) experiences? 

Also, I know some of these guys are big companies with lots of people in their respective groups. Does anyone have any comments on these types of operations v smaller operators?

In reply to briansy:

There are 46 reviews of Adventure Peaks on TripAdvisor. Most are very good to excellent; the exceptions all get long replies from Dave Pritt, the director of the company. A lot of information in there which should be useful to you in making your decision.

In reply to McHeath:

Good shout checking out TripAdvisor, McHeath. Looking at all of the available info and dates for me, it seems like Alpine ascents is the safest bet, but I was keener on a British company if at all possible. I also looked at Expediciones Grajales which is cheaper but would be concerned about the party being predominantly Latin American v Brits or Yanks (my preference). 

In reply to lowersharpnose:

Someone who was a genuinely accomplished Himalayan mountaineer, (not going to name as I'm not name dropping, but many here would know the name or maybe even some have known him) sadly passed away, many years ago took the wind out of my sails. I was enthusing about how I was doing a bit of jogging and wasn't it time efficient etc, told me unless it was what I really enjoyed (in which case carry on) was to stop a d take up cycling instead. I personally don't enjoy cycling, many people do, each to their own... But he was insistent that apart from mountaineering the best training for mountaineering was cycling. His reasoning was firstly : the duration and intensity was more similar to mountaineering as people tend to cycle for a full day, but running for a full day is rare (and punishing on the joints) and the range of motion with cycling was closer than running, and a whole heap of other reasons too why he believed it had far more carry over to mountaineering than jogging. I finished my pint a little crestfallen as it wasn't what I wanted to hear, but he was right.

OP would do well to take up cycling (as well as walking, climbing, mountaineering) and build up to getting long days into his legs, turbo trainer indoors if necessary.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Not disagreeing with you about the cycling, but I think that Ed Viesturs said in his book 'No Shortcuts to the Top' that the best training for trudging up mountains with a heavy pack was trudging uphill in a heavy pack and so he did lots of step work wearing a loaded rucksack.

In reply to hokkyokusei:

That was this person's opinion also, what he was suggesting to me was that for fitness the second best was cycling (not jogging, etc, etc).

Edit: anyway, I'm no expert in this, I'm just passing on what had been told to me by someone else..  who had been an expert on this topic.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Makes sense.

In reply to hokkyokusei:

This 100%. I'm pretty sure I still have residual fitness 30 years later from multiday hill bagging in Scotland and Wales carrying a Force 10 tent! Deliberately carry too much and don't stick to easy ground either. You'll lose any spare blubber too.

Having said that I'd keep things as light as possible when you do go high.

(in reply to OP not hokky)

In reply to CantClimbTom:

The thing I don't think I would get out of cycling is the foot strength, particularly on the arch, and the core strength for balance and ankle strength.

I'm sure cycling is great at isolating specific quad muscles but as I don't enjoy it I doubt I would get the results from it. Too many excuses to not get out the door when you don't want to do something.