UKH

PD+ would seem to be under doing it.  AD??

Quite a lot of Scottish stuff on camp to camp

https://www.camptocamp.org/outings/1565027/fr/monts-cuillins-traversee

In reply to philipjardine:

Looks like they had a good day and found the ravens.

Id not argue with AD either. Although there’s obviously a hell of a lot less fixed gear on Mont Cuillin than an alpine ridge.

In reply to Mike-W-99:

A few of the famous ones near the honeypots have fixed gear; the other 99.9% are completely free of it.

In reply to philipjardine:

Cosmiques Arete gets AD and it's mostly straightforward moving together, with a few short sections of climbing. Whilst longer the ridge isn't vastly different, where you can romp along for ages, short pitch up or down, then off you go again. Route finding on the skye ridge is the challenge, not the technical difficulty. 

In reply to philipjardine:

I'd say from my memory of years ago, AD sup, and with Naismith's Route, D Sup.

In reply to McHeath:

As always it depends. I've done a fair few obscure ones that turned out to have a reasonable amount of insitu.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

There's no way that the ridge can be D+ as D+ normally involves lots of VS climbing

In reply to LakesWinter:

Sorry, D+ does not ‘normally involve lots of VS climbing’, but several pitches of Hard Sev/MVS at the very most, and quite a lot of Severe. See Alan James’s excellent chart. https://rockfax.com/climbing-guides/grades/. Also, I gave the ridge AD Sup, with the grade bumped up for one pitch to D Sup if Naismith’s is taken in.

In reply to Mike-W-99:

Ok, but then "on some alpine ridges" would have been more appropriate; I read your post as implying that all Alpine ridges have fixed gear as a matter of course.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Does the Cuillin ridge involve lots of Severe climbing with several pitches of MVS though???

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

How do you get from that chart to Naismiths being D+ ? 

The chart suggests D+ would* involve 5c/6a sport, there's  nothing like that on Naismith's. Naismith's is Severe, so about 3c/4a sport according to the other charts on the page. So highest you can grade it purely on the technicality of the climbing is around PD or PD+

*obviously there are plenty snowy alpine routes and committing routes that could be D+ without any rock climbing. 

In reply to philipjardine:

IMO the difficulty of the Cuillin comes from its length and route finding difficulties. So I'd  give it PD+ for any individual section, then it possibly gets a higher grade for being so long, but how much can you upgrade something purely on its length? AD-? AD?

Comparing to an alpine route, I think it is a lot like Traversée des Crochues PD+ 4a, but considerably longer. Though much of that length is made up of walking. 

Thinking about the amount of walking, the Cuillin is almost like multiple scrambles and a few climbs linked together by walking, with a fair number of escape options in between. The hardest section of which is graded S but most is considerably easier.

Also, just for fun, I don't think Naismith's is the hardest part of the ridge. TD gap is horrible polished weirdness, found it much harder than any VD I've ever done. The overhang you pull through to gain the Basteir tooth is unprotected from a ground fall,  (unless I missed something) only one move but reasonably strenuous and committing.

In reply to philipjardine:

The crux bits on the cuillin are quite a bit harder than traverse de crouches (which is barely more than a grade 3 scramble). Perhaps a better comparison is Perron's traverse at AD . Though cuillin is longer than both

In reply to philipjardine:

Just to grab two routes at random, Camptocamp's grading is as much of a nonsense in the alps. Baisers orageuses, a short rockclimb on the south face of the Belvédère and the Walker Spur both get ED-. Best just ignoring grades completely...

https://www.camptocamp.org/images/672078/fr/face-se-du-belvedere

https://www.camptocamp.org/routes/55210/fr/grandes-jorasses-pointe-walker-e...

In reply to Ryan23:

Totally agree. It was a long time ago so I don't recall any details at all of Naismith's - which certainly wasn't Severe in the guidebook we had at the time - but I definitely remember finding the TD Gap desperate.

In reply to Ryan23:

Naismith's is definitely Severe (not V Diff) IMHO, and many/most others - and that is what it has been in guidebooks for a very long time, including latest SMC. Some would say Hard Severe.

In reply to LakesWinter:

Absolutely not. And no pitches of MVS, except (arguably) the TD Gap, which many miss out.

In reply to Ryan23:

Classic yardstick ADs in the Alps would be the Forbes Arete on the Aiguille du Chardonnet and the Biancograt on Piz Bernina, and I'd say the Cuillin Ridge is harder than either. The walking sections on the CR are irrelevant ... except that they add to one's overall fatigue.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I try to imagine how serious/difficult the Cuillin Ridge would appear if it involved a glacial approach and a little altitude.

My memories of the Forbes were that it was very easy on the arete but the approach and descent required a lot of care skill and attention.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I guess the difference is Forbes arete is way more committing than the CR, even though it is considerably technically easier. 

I must admit I have always found the balance between commitment and technical difficulty in alpine grades pretty confusing!

In reply to philipjardine:

Are we assuming taken south-to-north?

In reply to wercat:

Your description of the Forbes Arete is absolutely spot on. We more or less moved together up the ice bulge (a bit scary) and the descent on very steep soft snow was serious and demanding, exactly as you say but somehow deeply satisfying. The real (Alpine) thing.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I don't disagree about the grade of Naismith's, I think it is correct at Severe. I could see how some might argue for it being HS but I'm quite happy with S.

I disagree with the grade for TD gap, I don't think it is VD. I'm not sure what grade I'd give it because I don't think it's like anything I've climbed before. Polished, awkward, insecure, thrutchy and not as much gear as I'd like on a VD, but maybe it's just not my style. 

In reply to philipjardine:

Considering the various components of an alpine grade separately:

Length - very long D

Remoteness - easily escapable mostly PD-

Altitude none F

Seriousness - in places AD

Technical difficult - one or two pitches AD

TD gap separately  D-

Overall AD, perhaps AD+ withs TD gap

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

These routes are completely different to the CR. High alpine routes involving glacier approach, snow arete and high commitment. CR is a pure rock route, no glacier, no altitude and low commitment with easy escape. So will get their grades for entirely different reasons.

As far as I understand commitment/escapability, altitude, difficulty of approach and objective danger all add to an alpine grade. 

So the Forbes Arete may be a fairly easy scramble and snow arete when you're up there but it's the overall experience (commitment and approach etc) that gives it the grade of AD, not specifically the technical difficulty.

CR is predominently easy scrambling and walking, where the hardest technical section is Severe. Low commitment as it's fairly easy to escape at multiple points and low objective danger on the approach/descent. The extras that might bump up the grade of the CR are its length and route finding difficulty. So I work out that long sections of scrambling + hardest section being Severe = PD/PD+. That it is so long may bump up the grade a little more. 

I think the walking sections on the CR are relevant, they break the route up into, effectively, multiple shorter routes with fairly easy escapes. You can walk/scramble off many points of CR, even immediately before/after the climbs and these are all avoidable.

You can't simply walk off the Frobes Arete if it gets too much.

In reply to Ryan23:

TD gap is an old fashioned V Diff, in a style that not many people now seek out or often encounter (myself included). It’s easier in big boots than stickies.

Like everything else you get accustomed/ skilled at what you do. If you are regularly climbing gymnastic moves, the gap is then going to be completely alien.

Having said it’s old fashioned VD that doesn’t mean the grade can’t be changed to accommodate that most people find it awkward, and the lack of easy gear/presence of gear on the crux that is easy to kick out as you move up has, particularly in damp conditions contributed to several nasty ground falls and serious injuries over the years.

An interesting question do you change the grade of something because climbing styles have changed ??

In reply to philipjardine:

I would add that certain routes could achieve D. Such like T-D Gap, & Naithsmith's Route on Bhasteir Tooth

In reply to Ryan23:

I found the TD Gap to be about 4b, seconding. It was just so shiny, and I made a complete mess of it, i.e. climbed it REALLY badly, so I can't really judge it ...

In reply to Ryan23:

I was probably going well on the Forbes Arete, when I was 22 years old, 51 years ago So can't really judge it properly now. Also, because of everything you say, Alpine grades on the Cuillin ridge can't really be used in comparison.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

Yes. Guidebooks are supposed to be useful to contemporary climbers. First ascent notes (if any) could include the original grade.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

When I did the traverse in the early 80's (in big boots) I thought the TD gap was desperate. I would have rated it HS ( I was climbing HVS at the time)

In contrast I thought Naismith's route (which was graded D at the time) was a "piss of fish"

I would agree with MG probably overall AD+

In reply to philipjardine: Fforbes arete was my first alpine route, so I remember it relatively well, and while it was many things it wasn't technically difficult.  The Cuiillin is a lot longer , but in summer low objective risk, can be bailed from and only very short technical sections with a lot of walking. AD for me, mostly for the lengh

In reply to biggianthead:

I move to rename it the "AD+ gap"

They probably exist but I can't think of any alpine ridges which are purely rock & of similar length to the Skye ridge. While trying to think of something similar I though of the Traversée des Aiguilles du Lac Nègre in the Mercantour (see https://www.camptocamp.org/routes/57566/fr/cayre-du-prefouns-traversee-des-... ), graded D inf but its much shorter & with quite a bit of IV - we were climbing in big boots but some pitches felt close to VS& technically it felt harder than the Cuillin but only a few hours climbing at most.

Another alpine rocky ridge I've done (but easy glacier descent) was the SW ridge of the Douves Blanches above Arolla. Again much shorter than the Cuillin but with a mix of scrambling & more technical terrain including a pitch noted as "IV+, A0, 1 piton" at https://www.camptocamp.org/routes/58083/fr/douves-blanches-arete-sw which we climbed free at VS /HVS (was in boots & a long time ago). Again graded D although some of the comments suggest it should be AD sup. If it is AD sup, its difficult to argue that the Cuillin is the same, despite being longer.

In reply to Doug:

There are plenty of long-ish ones in the eastern Alps.

Somebody here evidently thought the Jubiläumsgrat (AD) was AD, although I've never seen a French alpine grade given for it in any local source. It's only about half the length summit-to-summit as the CR, and with lift approach and descent that considerably takes the sting out of the day as a whole. And the technical cruxes are easier, with only short steeper bits, quite a few of which have VF cables. But significantly more sustained and committing: only a couple of possible escapes, and a *lot* of scrambling that is technically easy, but on choss and you-fall-you-die.

Blassengrat (AD+) . Again the AD+ grade is not from any local source, must be somebody's opinion on here. Shorter than the Jubi or CR. Sustained exposed scrambling with a few sections of UIAA III, but generally on better quality rock than the Jubi. A bit more remote too - if you get into difficulties on the Jubi or CR in halfway reasonable conditions, the chances that somebody might come along to help out are quite high. Not on the Blassen.

In reply to Jim blackford:

i very much felt like i was in the cuilin when i did the perrons traverse in misty murky weather! the ambiance is very similar indeed (when you can see the view accross to all the much bigger peaks around!)

In reply to Webster:

I thought the Willsgraetli solo on the Wetterhorn felt very Cuillin like in seriousness (say comparable to going alone on Pinnacle Ridge of Sgurr nan Gillean) but there are bits of the Cuillin ridge that exceed the Willsgraetli in absolute difficulty.  Of course the Cuillin does not involve assessing and crossing a glacier first and the danger of stonefall is possibly less but both are fantastic journeys into that brief upper world

Possibly setting out alone from the Gleckstein in the darkness with no other headtorches going your way is a little more thought provoking than walking in from the Sligachan though

In reply to philipjardine: Alpine grades seem to give too much emphasis to technical rock grades and not enough to route length, commitment, mountaineering techniques etc. I always think the “ Grand Voies” can be under graded compared to say a shorter technical rock climb that may have a glacier approach and quite a bit of fixed gear. 
I very much doubt the CR is worth more than AD when compared to long Alpine routes. The Frendo Spur is given D.

In reply to wercat:

Is that the ridge "left" of the normal route? Worthwhile?

In reply to MG:

I always thought the normal route climbed the Willsgraetli (or is my guide very old?)

In reply to jon:

Agreed. I,ve always thought alpine grades are ridiculous. Bolted rock routes can be ED Sup and ABO, whereas, as you say the Walker and I,d add the likes of the Ginat are ED-. How does that work?

In reply to wercat:

Ah, OK. I've done the normal route - good, I thought. There is another ridge though that looks interesting. AD+, I think.

In reply to MG:

I remember it changing from good grippy granite to polished slippery limestone at about half height. Or maybe the other way around ?

In reply to jon:

I recall after the glacier good grippy gneiss, I think it is, then the limestone. 

In reply to rlrs:

I think that's right. I remember the top section being quite steep and icy, then a knife edge summit with views straight down to the chalets above Grindelwald.

I also forgot my head torch that trip...

In reply to philipjardine:

The Cuillin Ridge is a big day out with complex routefinding. The Peigne Normal Route (AD+ 4c) is also a big day out with complex routefinding - and technically more difficult. That's AD+ so I'd say AD was fair.