UKH

https://climbkalymnos.com/bbpress/topic.php?id=7321#post-62058

Thats the new route development effort by visiting equippers crushed then.

There has been some informal control in place for a number of years.  I know for example that when Gordon Jenkin put up the route Eternal on Telendos he had to jump through a few hoops in order to do so.

I don't have a problem with the principle of ensuring that any bolting is done safely.  As soon as you include commercial enterprises and government in things like this some form of control becomes inevitable.  It's where it goes from here that worries me.

Al

Particularly given that the committee includes one specific individual. Giving anyone total control over a situation is never healthy.

Why? As long as visitors comply with their requests it changes nothing. Are you suggesting that they should be able to equip in a sub standard manner? Where I live the locals insist on the same thing and reserve the right to disequip routes that don't comply with their standards, so nothing new there.

Andy,

Your thread title is a bit sensational! As Al says this is nothing really new. It’s the same in Leonidio where you have to prove you are competent before they let you loose.....

Chris

Given the blind faith  most of us place in bolts (yeah, yeah,I know you should check them  for yourself but the vast majority of us just clip and go) the principle sounds good to me. Any qualms I suspect will come from the timing and, possibly the make up of the 'committee'. It will certainly please a friend I introduced to sport climbing.

Her: Who puts these bolts in?

Me: Anybody who wants to

Her: But they must have training?

Me: Not necessarily

Her: How do they get their licence then?

ME: What licence?

Her: But the BMC -or someone checks them, don't they?

Me: Nope. Nobody does. Officially that's your job to check before you trust them

Her: How the f*** am I supposed to know if it's been put in properly. Should we really be doing this?

It's not just safety either. At some point the worthwhile rock has been "mined out", and there's something to be said for discouraging people from continuing to bolt every last scrap of rock just to get their name in the guidebook. 

Case in point: Prophitis Andreas. OK, the main slab is cool looking and impressive (as long as you're not too bothered about the lifespan of either your fingertips or your shoes) but there's some right dodgy crap by Kaly rock quality standards that's been bolted (and given thoroughly undeserved guidebook stars) further to the right.

Wow. Truly awful and very much counter to the general spirit of climbing. It sounds like they've created an authoritarian, undemocratic bureaucracy: they want to control everything. Very sad. Definitely doesn't encourage one to buy their guidebook. Having the Rockfax guide seems like a very positive alternative now.

Hopefully it will encourage climbers to break their rules in some way. They couldn't chop new routes if they were trad

I have to disagree.  If anything it's the bolting in the first place that's counter to the general spirit of climbing but we are where we are.  I have experienced bad bolting, unlike trad climbing, and this is unfortunate, it's not just down to personal judgement.  A bolt can look OK and even feel solid but there is no way of knowing about the underlying structure and quality of the workmanship.  I'm surprised that it's taken so long.  There is certification of production and manufacture at every other stage of climbing equipment but placing bolts is still ungoverned.

Al

Particularly in Kalymnos because it's a marine environment. Bolts that can withstand the corrosion are bloody expensive which can encourage new-routers to do a half-arsed job. Sport climbing in Sicily has been severely affected by this and the UK has also suffered in the past.

For me it's the make-up of the committee which seems questionable rather than its existence.

Quoted from Gwen Binyon on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1050512014982009/permalink/2156028697763663...

"I am very disappointed in an island I love this is kalymnos and the reason for this is the-disgusting bullying of one certain person who is a member of the rescue team. In the 3 years I have been to this beautiful island he has chased a person down a hill with a crow bar, pushed a70 yr old grandfather down steps, slapped someone in the face hurled abuse at other climbers, cut bolts of routes because the guy was German , and much more. And now this guy has changed his name to Claude Kalymnos my question is why this person is a allowed to behave in this manner yet gets to decide who and what is done on this island and be the face of the rescue team, and why is he allowed to get away with this behaviour and backed by Aris Theodoropoulos the guide book writer (who is unlikely not to know about this behaviour, please climbers be aware of this person and his nasty behaviour"

Any committee should be be totally impartial and not made up of  egotistical protaganists or those with a vested commercial interest.

Thats why Steve Mac and The Glaros Bolt Fund together with The Send app have contributed so much more than anyone else in buying Raumer 316i Marine Grade StainlessSteel Bolts.

Can I just confirm that, despite the war, it's still really sunny and they have cold mythos everywhere? And that weird Pirate fella, has he survived the war so far? Coz he lets you borrow boats to play on if you buy a beer. I'll be devastated if I can't go for a paddle when I get there. 

If anything, it's good that there's some oversight of bolting.

Locally things are being bolted that fall to bits as you climb them.

Being one of the victims to Claudes violence that Andyb211 referred to I have to say I am a little disappointed, perhaps even angry, that he seems to have gained any influence at all on the island.  If I had known this would happen I may well have got the police involved at the time.

Al

Can I just be clear that my comment about the make-up of the Kalymnos bolting committee was by no means meant as a personal attack on anyone, but rather as a criticism of the concept of it being composed of specific individuals.

I certainly do not consider one-sided Facebook posts, hearsay or rumors as being credible. A public debate where everyone has the right to express their opinion is the best way of sorting out these issues.

In what way a victim, Al?

He slapped me around my face because he didn't like the way I was belaying.  Whilst I was belaying I might add.  He was going on and on in an aggressive manner about safety and my being stood too far away from the crag.  He then went on about him being in the rescue team and how we all went there to his cliff, used the bolts and didn't contribute. We tried to explain that we were experienced and knew what we were doing but he kept on. Eventually I said to my friends I wish he would just f*ck off.  He only heard the last two words and bounded down the hill and slapped me on the face.  The reason I was stood back from the crag was because my mate, who was leading at the time, advised me there was a dog on the ledge and I should stay where I was. The irony was that it turned out to be his dog.  All of this in front of a huge crowd many of whom appeared to be his clients.

I met with the rescue Team leaders the next day and they assured me that this was not the first time and he would be dealt with but they did not want to dismiss him from the rescue team because there was a shortage of skills on the island.  On that basis I did not report the assault to the police.  Perhaps I should have done.  

Perhaps it would be wise to add allegedly.

Al

I must admit that I find this a very dubious development. It is true that this has unofficially been in place for a few years but this attempt to make it official is nothing more than a power grab. 

The fact that it makes no mention of rebolting old routes shows you exactly what it is aimed at. Are we to assume that anyone can rebolt routes then?

This isn't about safety and co-operation, it is about control of the remaining rock in the hands of a few individuals. It is also an attempt to sideline the other bolting initiatives of the Glaros Bar and the Send app. Very sad that these people feel so threatened by others that they need to resort to these tactics to fight against people who would willingly get behind a collaborative effort if they were given the chance.

Alan

Hmmm, that's not nice, doesn't sound like the Kalymnos holiday atmosphere I remember! I was confused about the dog - why did that make a difference to where you stood? All this was obviously prior to your accident - did you manage to get yourself down or did you have to call the rescue team?

The dog was on a ledge which is the normal/ideal belay point for a route called Pornonegros on 3 Ilots.  I stood several feet below a slab which also forced me away from the rock.  Not ideal but we were were aware of the potential danger.

The accident was a couple years later on Sea Breeze so not too far from the road.  An Italian guy, who was no spring chicken, carried me down on his back.  I offered to buy him a drink but I never saw him again.  If you happen to read  this I will be eternally grateful.

Al

Mr. Claude came up to screaming carrying a solide metal stick when we equipped Hannah on Gerakios. He insisted that this was 'his' crag. He only got quieter when I threatened to call the police. Just an uncontrolled asshole.

It is exactly those guys on the panel that used shit (A2) steel themselves to equip and reequip. Look at some of their routes after 3, 4 years. And now they are supposed to control if my material or bolting are safe?

... climbing will stay dangerous, and responsibility has to be with the climber, few will equip unsafe routes against better knowledge. But there will never be something like a safe climbing area.

The practicalities seem difficult if you have to make the committee aware in advance and wait for (possible) approval and only have a week or two on the island. Do you have to apply before you even arrive?

The desire for safe bolting is obvious but this measure, coming so hot on the heels of the guidebook furore, smacks of Claude and Aris trying to create a closed shop. This is sad because both have contributed so much with their routes and the previous guidebooks but are now appearing petulant.

OK you've misunderstood my point. I'm not against good bolting. I definitely agree good bolting is preferable to bad. I don't think any climber would prefer otherwise. What I'm against is the authoritarian politics and threat of punishment used here. There's a claim of ownership implied: 'these are <i>our</i> crags so you have to do what we tell you'. It's not they are supplying the bolts or anything else. I suspect that idea underlies their belief that they have the sole right to produce a guidebook to the area too.

As an analogy look at Saddam Hussein. He did many good things for his country like improving education, the country's infrastructure and healthcare. But none of the good things he did negate the fact he was a brutal fascist dictator.

Stripping someone's route because you don't happen to agree with the way it's been bolted is extremely authoritarian. It's a form of punishment that serves no purpose other than to get back at the first ascentionist. It benefits no one since a even poorly bolted route is better than no route at all. If it's bolted each climber still has the choice as to whether or not they want to climb it. If the climb is well within their ability they might well choose climb it despite the shoddy equipping.

We don't know what the guidelines are yet but the point is no one else has a say in what they are. They could stipulate anything they like and change the rules whenever they feel like it. For instance they might decide to have a rule where bolts cannot be more than a maximum of 2 metres apart. So if you're someone who likes creating run out routes suddenly you're won't be allowed to.

Finally imagine if someone tried to the same in this country. Let's say I got together with a couple of mates and we declared ourselves the Peak District Bolting Committee. No one is allowed to bolt anything without going through us first. I'm pretty sure no climbers would take a blind bit of notice. They'd carry on regardless doing what they want to do ignoring and defying our claimed authority.

If they want good bolting, as we all do, I think they're going about it the wrong way. Instead of trying to force others to comply with their wishes they'd be much better providing free information, encouragement and support. They could get their preferred bolts and resin sold in local climbing shops and sold on non or minimal profit basis.

I feel like that analogy might be a bit OTT. I don't think Aris preparing a scud launch against rockfax and the glaros bar.

I don't think that's right. It depends on what is meant by shoddy equipping. Run-outs might be ok but if the bolt is affected by SCC it could be lethal and the climber would have literally no way of using their judgement to tell whether it was good or bad.* There have been problems with sub-standard bolts on Kalymnos before e.g. rocklands and also with people bolting so close to existing routes that the FA's of the old routes get annoyed.

* I appreciate that the guys putting themselves in the position of authority are the same guys who's brilliant solution to the problem of SCC was to re-bolt everything in 316L.... which is vulnerable to SCC.

Surely, in the peak district, this sort of already happens but with a load of random people deciding whether or not they'd chop controversial bolts. "No one is allowed to bolt anything without going through us first" seems a pretty accurate description of the situation. It's just that the "us" is larger and more informal. I know that you are typically on the other side on these debates to the would be choppers though.

I found it interesting that people on Kalymnos got upset when new bolts changed the character of existing, adjacent routes. It seems to sort of vindicate trad climbers' opposition to the pro-retro-bolting argument; "surely you can just ignore the bolts if you want". If nearby bolts ruin sport routes in sport climbing paradise surely its daft to argue they don't ruin nearby trad routes in the UK. Funnily enough I was mocked for making such a far-fetched comparison and I didn't even mention Saddam Hussein!

You're comparing a committee who wants to improve standards of bolting on the island to Saddam Hussein? Do you realise he was hung for crimes against humanity and murdered hundreds of thousands of Kurds? 

Had a few tonight? Get a grip.

It's ironic that UKC of all places is losing it's shit about someone suggesting they may chop some bolts if they are inappropriately placed.

Yes they have an interest, their interest that no-one dies from a poor bolt on Kalymnos putting off future visitors. They're not going to lose money because someone put good quality bolts on good quality routes but they, and local businesses, might if there's a string of deaths from corroded/poorly placed whatever-year-old bolts.

It would also be nice if new-routers made life easier for rebolters and for replacing anchors. 

They improve their control, not the standard of bolting. And be sure of one thing: they'll also be judges, destroyers, legislators all in one. Your post shows little knowledge of the.local situation.

I think it's you who's unaware of the situation which is surprising as UKC has reported on it. 

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/ukc/bad_bolts_on_kalymnos-479302

http://www.climbing.co.za/2013/05/kalymnos-bad-bolts-warning/

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rocktalk/bolt_failure_-_leonidas_spart...

https://climbkalymnos.com/attention-climbers-bad-bolts-routes-to-avoid/

And unlike when Mina hit her head, quality medical help isn't exactly around the corner: https://climbkalymnos.com/bbpress/topic.php?id=400 

It's not like the UK which has an established trad culture, rescue helicopters and the NHS. Kalymnos is attracting holiday makers so deaths and accidents don't make a route more impressive and knarly to the locals, it puts people off going. 

Standards are good for climbers, bad for people who want to get their legacy in a guide by throwing up a few expansion bolts just for their route to be anonymously rebolted a year or two later.

Yes it may hurt your ego and require a little foreplanning to fire off an email but I'm not sure what's the harm? If bolters are unjustifiably turned away or if their routes are chopped, believe me, we will hear about it. 

Kalymnos is an extremely popular place to develop and it will continue to be regardless of a committee of Sadam Hussein, Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot or whoever you guys want to compare them to. 

Even if you are right, and the worst case scenario occurs i.e. that Kalymnos is only bolted in future by trusted locals or Aris's mates - I still think the comparison to a genocidal dictator is ridiculous. 

I strongly doubt that this is the main motivation behind this new unofficial/official regulation. I refer people again to the fact that it makes no mention of rebolting routes, yet this is precisely where the effort is needed. Why are they not bothered about the quality when rebolting?

Alan

Likely because where people are rebolting they are doing it to improve the safety of the route not because they are notching up FAs. Perhaps if we're honest, it isn't the Brits on a one week holiday rebolting the crags but more likely people that are already engaged locally and are abiding by the standards set.

As everyone knows, 'regulation' is a cooling force on activity which the rebolting efforts certainly don't need. New routes? Would be best if they are absolutely perfect and will last for ages whilst the locals catch up with rebolting all the other 'new routes' put up. 

Isn't this fella like 70 years old? He sounds a right character to be fair.

Unfortunately that isn't the case. The Glaros Bar fund is very active in rebolting work yet this decree is an attempt to sideline that fund.

Alan

Why is it Alan? Don't they stock good quality bolts approved by the Hellenic Federation of Mountaining and climbing? It's a fund right, can't they just buy them in? 

As you said they don't mention rebolting so does it even affect them anyway? 

Err... it wasn't a comparison. It was an analogy. Big difference.

To quote from stp:

'As an analogy look at Saddam Hussein. He did many good things for his country like improving education, the country's infrastructure and healthcare. But none of the good things he did negate the fact he was a brutal fascist dictator.'

The issue isn't Saddam Hussein vis a vis Kalymnos. It's good things vis a vis a dictatorship. And please don't think that dictators are any better at providing good things than democrats. They're not. And, unlike democrats, dictators can change their minds at will. (And they do.)

Best to stick with democracy in bolting and in everything else. As my childhood hero, JFK, astutely noted, "Democracy isn't perfect." Nail on head. Sometimes it's messy. Sometimes it's downright exasperating. But it's by far the best model we've got - probably because it resounds most deeply with our notions of decency and fairness and it spreads power as widely as possible.

Hey, wasn't it invented by some dudes not so very far away from Kaly? Maybe we need 'em back.

"Oi, Socrates! Stop swigging that hemlock and help us sort out this bolting business..."

Mick

no, I think I am not. And I've been aware of all those discussions since I started contributing (very minor) bit's and pieces in 2004, following others' discussions and so on. And I didn't compare to a bloodthirsty  dictator (this was another author) - but to the country you can see from Kalymnos.

As I wrote above, the responsibility still is with the climber. Sadly (and thankfully) there has been only one fatal accident in Kalymnos. The problem was not with equipment as far as I know, but a mistake on part of the climber (I want to express that I'm very sorry for that accident, as it was a mistake probably all of us could have had). We are human after all. And so are equippers.

I'm very much supportive of using up to date material (and - I have to admit, by accident - have used this since 2004, it's all there to see). What I'm opposed to is:

Yes it may hurt your ego and require a little foreplanning to fire off an email but I'm not sure what's the harm? If bolters are unjustifiably turned away or if their routes are chopped, believe me, we will hear about it. 

The persons on the committee have done exactly this. We heard about it (also on UKC). Ask Hans Weninger. Ask Hommel and Fridrich. Ask the Remy's. It is not about foreplanning, it is about power and control, that is now in the hands of the guys responsible for the renaming nonsense. Who used minor quality bolts themselves and so on. And who, as discussed above and in other threads, are not accountable and in control of what they do (especially Claude).

My broken ankle sustained on Kalymnos was to some degree a consequence of poor bolting but not to the extent that I would apportion any blame to the original bolter. My foot slipped reaching for a badly placed bolt which was far enough away from the previous bolt and a long way off to the right so as to cause me to land on a slab below.

Al

i know who to send my insurance claim too if anything happens when using there climbs ???? as they are now taking on the responsibility of all routes and bolt safety?

Exactly. And if you ask them in a friendly way, they might also change gravity for you! This is what holiday island dreams are made of.

An analogy is a comparison. Even if you are saying two things are different, that's still a comparison. A comparison to Saddam Hussein is not necessarily insulting but a analogy is, so thanks for making my point stronger for me. 

Either way it's still ridiculous and insulting to analogise someone to a brutal dictator. It's also a poor analogy as it's not even a dictatorship as there are multiple people involved.

There are plenty of committees set up in the UK. Are all of those dictatorships? 

Can you think of any UK regulations set by democracies?

What democracies allow the votes of foreigners? 

It's a complete false dichotomy you've created here. 

Apologies, I didn't mean to insinuate you had. I was addressing many of the points in the thread in one post. 

Only to a certain extent. You would need to defect to be visible, and hopefully the poor bolts are not too close to the ground or anywhere too committing after the climber has spotted the issue. Also it's just pretty shitty to be pumped for a route just to turn up and see all the bolts are rusted through. I understand the issue with the fatality, the belay anchor was improperly threaded.

Great! 

I'd have to know more about the specifics to understand. If someone has been knocked back for wanting to use sub-standard gear then surely that's the point? Are you saying they are blocking new routing even if their requirements are met? If so that would be contrary to what Aris has stated.  

Jeez... I give up.

Adios - and have a happy life.

Mick

It has exactly been the latter. I'm saying exactly that - not Aris, but Claude. Personally experienced.

Discussion closed for me as for Mick.

The acid test will come when Chris Craggs wants to bolt a new route

You make it sound as if I've doggedly gone after your posts in this thread over a prolonged period when in fact I've responded to your fairly lengthy post to me once. Weird. 

Have a nice life too. 

A combine of European guidebook publishers have fitted him with a secret tracker, you know.

His current tour of the Vanois and Durance will have 'em worried.

No, please

So is Al, so am I. Neither of us, or the many grumblies I know who climb are prone to assaulting other climbers. Being 70 is not an excuse!

I am going to close this thread so we can keep the discussion in one place

here - https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rocktalk/kalymnos_warzone-692126