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I'm thinking of getting one, any recommendations?
I'd quite like the piece of mind knowing if i clip a partner into me, but clip a gear loop rather, that he'll still be safe.
Any idea of weight any why they aren't more popular?
I'd quite like the piece of mind knowing if i clip a partner into me, but clip a gear loop rather, that he'll still be safe.
Any idea of weight any why they aren't more popular?
In reply to zimpara:
They've been around for ages and I've seen people using them in various countries, so I guess they sell fine for Metolius.
But I guess the main point is why would you ever clip someone to a gear loop? Of course anything is possible, but if you don't think you are ever going to do this, then why do you need 10 kn gear loops or whatever the rating is.
They've been around for ages and I've seen people using them in various countries, so I guess they sell fine for Metolius.
But I guess the main point is why would you ever clip someone to a gear loop? Of course anything is possible, but if you don't think you are ever going to do this, then why do you need 10 kn gear loops or whatever the rating is.
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In reply to TobyA:
To idiot proof them... for idiots?
Or are they for hanging that enormous gritstone rack on that you see photos of all the time on here? The same rack that would get you up El Cap.
Does seem a bit overkill for regular climbing though, doesn't it?
> if you don't think you are ever going to do this, then why do you need 10 kn gear loops or whatever the rating is.
To idiot proof them... for idiots?
Or are they for hanging that enormous gritstone rack on that you see photos of all the time on here? The same rack that would get you up El Cap.
Does seem a bit overkill for regular climbing though, doesn't it?
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In reply to zimpara:
Perhaps they're meant for people like the woman I saw a few months ago at Swanage, about to belay her son from her gear loop? After interjecting, we were most concerned that she didn't seem to understand why it was a problem...
Perhaps they're meant for people like the woman I saw a few months ago at Swanage, about to belay her son from her gear loop? After interjecting, we were most concerned that she didn't seem to understand why it was a problem...
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In reply to zimpara:
Have one of these - decent harness if a bit less refined and heavier/bulkier than some newer designs. Gear loops are overkill but at same time guaranteed to never fail (have broken/damaged normal gear loops on other harnesses when gear on them has snagged in chimneys and the like).
Have one of these - decent harness if a bit less refined and heavier/bulkier than some newer designs. Gear loops are overkill but at same time guaranteed to never fail (have broken/damaged normal gear loops on other harnesses when gear on them has snagged in chimneys and the like).
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In reply to zimpara:
I wil confess to having belayed a partner to a gear loop once. He gave me a right pumelling when told him at the top of the route, thinking his sketchy V ice pitch was at least protected by a decent belay(er).
I wil confess to having belayed a partner to a gear loop once. He gave me a right pumelling when told him at the top of the route, thinking his sketchy V ice pitch was at least protected by a decent belay(er).
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In reply to Tim Sparrow:
I've been on the other end of the same mistake. Led a 2nd pitch at E4 6b in the slate quarries, after which my belayer confessed to having had the plate clipped to the gear loop the whole time. Too late to change anything and no value in getting irate, so we learned from it.
I've been on the other end of the same mistake. Led a 2nd pitch at E4 6b in the slate quarries, after which my belayer confessed to having had the plate clipped to the gear loop the whole time. Too late to change anything and no value in getting irate, so we learned from it.
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In reply to zimpara:
You want to buy a harness to ensure that if you accidentally belay off they gear loop you're partner won't die?
Why not just belay off the belay loop?
You want to buy a harness to ensure that if you accidentally belay off they gear loop you're partner won't die?
Why not just belay off the belay loop?
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In reply to Tim Sparrow:
In the dim distant (we were in our teens) I remember a mate abbing off a cliff and for the life of me I couldn't work out what was wrong with the way he was hanging then I realised that he'd clipped his krab and fig 8 into a gear loop. Held nicely though (DMM Alpine if anyone's interested)
I've also been at the top of a hard (for me) indoor route in a bod style harness and realised I'd only tied into the leg loops and missed the waist belt so I only had the two fastex clips to connect both parts of the harness. Sobering and makes me very careful when I and my partner tie in.
In the dim distant (we were in our teens) I remember a mate abbing off a cliff and for the life of me I couldn't work out what was wrong with the way he was hanging then I realised that he'd clipped his krab and fig 8 into a gear loop. Held nicely though (DMM Alpine if anyone's interested)
I've also been at the top of a hard (for me) indoor route in a bod style harness and realised I'd only tied into the leg loops and missed the waist belt so I only had the two fastex clips to connect both parts of the harness. Sobering and makes me very careful when I and my partner tie in.
In reply to zimpara:
I've got the safetech comp harness which has similarly rated gear loops, but only one belay loop. They also have leg loop elastic rated to something like 6kn.
I also like the thought that it's all rated, but find it equally hard to work out why it'd be useful. Maybe I could use the two rear gear loops connected to two separate buried axes behind/above me on a bucket seat snow belay? Would be easier to rig and more comfortable than using a haul loop maybe? Or you could clip the elastic for some shock absorption in said belay?
Either way my harness is really comfy for a 'cut down' version which should mean the more featured ones are even more so. Definitely bombproof.
I've got the safetech comp harness which has similarly rated gear loops, but only one belay loop. They also have leg loop elastic rated to something like 6kn.
I also like the thought that it's all rated, but find it equally hard to work out why it'd be useful. Maybe I could use the two rear gear loops connected to two separate buried axes behind/above me on a bucket seat snow belay? Would be easier to rig and more comfortable than using a haul loop maybe? Or you could clip the elastic for some shock absorption in said belay?
Either way my harness is really comfy for a 'cut down' version which should mean the more featured ones are even more so. Definitely bombproof.
In reply to Robin Woodward:
So my plan is as follows,
Buy the harness, head to a busy peak district crag and anchor in with the gear loops,(strong enough) and watch as all climbers in vicinity come running shouting warnings... lmao jokes on them right hey?
So my plan is as follows,
Buy the harness, head to a busy peak district crag and anchor in with the gear loops,(strong enough) and watch as all climbers in vicinity come running shouting warnings... lmao jokes on them right hey?
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In reply to zimpara:
I've used one for years - mainly for the adjustable raise which suits me well.
The other outstanding feature is the opportunity to tell your partner, on a shared belay, that you're going to clip him into a gear loop. The look on others' faces is worth the few extra grammes. You also never worry about breaking a gear loop on a descent and dropping gear irretrievably under boulders, or clipping a lead rope into one when you abseil into a sea cliff.
I've used one for years - mainly for the adjustable raise which suits me well.
The other outstanding feature is the opportunity to tell your partner, on a shared belay, that you're going to clip him into a gear loop. The look on others' faces is worth the few extra grammes. You also never worry about breaking a gear loop on a descent and dropping gear irretrievably under boulders, or clipping a lead rope into one when you abseil into a sea cliff.
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In reply to Oogachooga:
Because mistakes happen! I am another person who has once (once only, as far as I know) belayed a second on a belay loop. Since then I have had a rule that I always keep my belay plate on the big loop, and never take it off and store it on a gear loop.
> Why not just belay off the belay loop?
Because mistakes happen! I am another person who has once (once only, as far as I know) belayed a second on a belay loop. Since then I have had a rule that I always keep my belay plate on the big loop, and never take it off and store it on a gear loop.
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In reply to zimpara:
sorry not funny a little boy cried woof once
teh_mark - has a story about it see above
but this is @ 33 seconds in
youtube.com/watch?v=SZvzaA0RvwE&
sorry not funny a little boy cried woof once
teh_mark - has a story about it see above
but this is @ 33 seconds in
youtube.com/watch?v=SZvzaA0RvwE&
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In reply to nniff:
I never worry about that whatever harness I'm using. Does it ever actually happen? I've never seen it, or heard of it. My impression is that gear loops are pretty strong, generally, despite not usually being rated.
> You also never worry about breaking a gear loop on a descent and dropping gear irretrievably under boulders
I never worry about that whatever harness I'm using. Does it ever actually happen? I've never seen it, or heard of it. My impression is that gear loops are pretty strong, generally, despite not usually being rated.
In reply to zimpara:
I think it's more a showing off than a safety issue
"Our harnesses are made so well, even the gear loops will hold 10 kN"
I think it's more a showing off than a safety issue
"Our harnesses are made so well, even the gear loops will hold 10 kN"
In reply to Rog Wilko:
FWIW, I would find that a right pain in the arse, having a crab and belay device dangling in front while climbing.
I take the view that some mistakes should never happen, and one of these is failing to use the harness belay loop (or rope tie-in loop) for crucial safety-chain stuff, so I don't personally see the need to insure against that by having rated gear loops. Gear loops are around to the side, not really anywhere near the belay loop, and they look and feel completely different, so to clip one of them by mistake is inexcusably careless. I wouldn't want to climb with anyone who considered that a real possibility. After all, there are various other weak points to which a belay device could (theoretically) be clipped. What next - super strong chalk bag belts/clips, trouser belts, knicker elastic?
> Because mistakes happen! I am another person who has once (once only, as far as I know) belayed a second on a belay loop. Since then I have had a rule that I always keep my belay plate on the big loop, and never take it off and store it on a gear loop.
FWIW, I would find that a right pain in the arse, having a crab and belay device dangling in front while climbing.
I take the view that some mistakes should never happen, and one of these is failing to use the harness belay loop (or rope tie-in loop) for crucial safety-chain stuff, so I don't personally see the need to insure against that by having rated gear loops. Gear loops are around to the side, not really anywhere near the belay loop, and they look and feel completely different, so to clip one of them by mistake is inexcusably careless. I wouldn't want to climb with anyone who considered that a real possibility. After all, there are various other weak points to which a belay device could (theoretically) be clipped. What next - super strong chalk bag belts/clips, trouser belts, knicker elastic?
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I'd rather climb with someone who knew they made mistakes than someone who thought they never would.
Everyone makes mistakes and the more ways you can prevent one of those mistakes being terminal, the better. It's hard enough to get people to check what's really there, not what they are expecting to see (this is actually very hard!). I have seen people do buddy checks, even with prompting, and fail to notice that the belay screwgate was not only not done up but not even closed (hung up on the partially closed gate)...
And the obvious reason that people belay off gear loops instead of chalk bags etc is that you clip your belay device and carabiner to it; it's obviously not so ridiculous since a number of people have admitted to doing it here.
I'd rather climb with someone who knew they made mistakes than someone who thought they never would.
Everyone makes mistakes and the more ways you can prevent one of those mistakes being terminal, the better. It's hard enough to get people to check what's really there, not what they are expecting to see (this is actually very hard!). I have seen people do buddy checks, even with prompting, and fail to notice that the belay screwgate was not only not done up but not even closed (hung up on the partially closed gate)...
And the obvious reason that people belay off gear loops instead of chalk bags etc is that you clip your belay device and carabiner to it; it's obviously not so ridiculous since a number of people have admitted to doing it here.
Post edited at 12:11
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The strenght of the gearloops appears to be a engineering decision.
On one hand:
- Having gear snag during a fall and have a static impact sideways can be a issue...
On the other
- Having people abuse gearloops as belay loops can also be a issue...
As for using gearloops to attach your self to anchors. I use to work in towers with proffesional full bodyharness, with rated positioning loops at the sided (metal one, seperate from the gearloops). They are fine when you looped something around a structure and position your self with position loops on both sides, but one seemed rather uncomfortable... Remeber hanging side ways once, that thick fat leg loop really started to dig in to the important bits.
On one hand:
- Having gear snag during a fall and have a static impact sideways can be a issue...
On the other
- Having people abuse gearloops as belay loops can also be a issue...
As for using gearloops to attach your self to anchors. I use to work in towers with proffesional full bodyharness, with rated positioning loops at the sided (metal one, seperate from the gearloops). They are fine when you looped something around a structure and position your self with position loops on both sides, but one seemed rather uncomfortable... Remeber hanging side ways once, that thick fat leg loop really started to dig in to the important bits.
In reply to andrewmcleod:
I did start this thread as a bit of a troll, but after all the rather decent responses, I may well get one. A good bit of kit. Some good posts.
I've spotted a few hung open gates on my belayer aswell just before i climb (twice at a wall) Always sorted out immediattely and I just don't climb with them again.
Always worth having a glance at the karabiner and checking that ropes actually go around a karabiner too.
I did start this thread as a bit of a troll, but after all the rather decent responses, I may well get one. A good bit of kit. Some good posts.
I've spotted a few hung open gates on my belayer aswell just before i climb (twice at a wall) Always sorted out immediattely and I just don't climb with them again.
Always worth having a glance at the karabiner and checking that ropes actually go around a karabiner too.
Post edited at 12:28
In reply to bpmclimb:
Matter of personal preference, I suppose.
Your point here is well-made, and I largely agree with it. The time when I managed this error was when I was using a harness which, for no apparent reason, had a gear loop right next to the buckle, and that is (partly) why the mistake was made.
> FWIW, I would find that a right pain in the arse, having a crab and belay device dangling in front while climbing.
Matter of personal preference, I suppose.
> Gear loops are around to the side, not really anywhere near the belay loop, and they look and feel completely different, so to clip one of them by mistake is inexcusably careless.
Your point here is well-made, and I largely agree with it. The time when I managed this error was when I was using a harness which, for no apparent reason, had a gear loop right next to the buckle, and that is (partly) why the mistake was made.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Not my arse in worried about getting hurt!
> FWIW, I would find that a right pain in the arse, having a crab and belay device dangling in front while climbing.
Not my arse in worried about getting hurt!
Post edited at 19:33
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In reply to andrewmcleod:
I fundamentally disagree with that mentality. What you say has some truth to it, as far as it goes, but what about the flip side: ever-increasing design complexity through attempts to insure against careless mistakes. In climbing, there's way too many different ways to mess up and come to grief to insure against them all. I prefer simplicity, and simple, safe procedures. So for me, one very strong and reliable attachment point on my harness will do very nicely, thank you!
> Everyone makes mistakes and the more ways you can prevent one of those mistakes being terminal, the better.
I fundamentally disagree with that mentality. What you say has some truth to it, as far as it goes, but what about the flip side: ever-increasing design complexity through attempts to insure against careless mistakes. In climbing, there's way too many different ways to mess up and come to grief to insure against them all. I prefer simplicity, and simple, safe procedures. So for me, one very strong and reliable attachment point on my harness will do very nicely, thank you!
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In reply to zimpara:
Hmm, I'm not sure I'd ever feel particularly safe with a partner who doesn't even know what he's clipping stuff to.
> I'd quite like the piece of mind knowing if i clip a partner into me, but clip a gear loop rather, that he'll still be safe.
Hmm, I'm not sure I'd ever feel particularly safe with a partner who doesn't even know what he's clipping stuff to.
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In reply to zimpara:
For me, that's not an issue, as I explained above; however, I can imagine that the extra peace of mind could be welcome if trailing an extra rope that you really mustn't drop.
> I'd quite like the piece of mind knowing if i clip a partner into me, but clip a gear loop rather, that he'll still be safe.
For me, that's not an issue, as I explained above; however, I can imagine that the extra peace of mind could be welcome if trailing an extra rope that you really mustn't drop.
In reply to bpmclimb:
I agree that an excellent way to help prevent mistakes, and make it easier to identify them, is to keep it simple!
But that has nothing to do with whether your gear loops are rated or not. There is no complexity added by having your gear loop more robust.
> I fundamentally disagree with that mentality. What you say has some truth to it, as far as it goes, but what about the flip side: ever-increasing design complexity through attempts to insure against careless mistakes. In climbing, there's way too many different ways to mess up and come to grief to insure against them all. I prefer simplicity, and simple, safe procedures. So for me, one very strong and reliable attachment point on my harness will do very nicely, thank you!
I agree that an excellent way to help prevent mistakes, and make it easier to identify them, is to keep it simple!
But that has nothing to do with whether your gear loops are rated or not. There is no complexity added by having your gear loop more robust.
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In reply to zimpara:
I had one. the gear loops may have held 10kn, I never put it to the test, but unfortunately the main webbing didnt seem all that durable and i replaced it after it started showing signs of wear round the buckle quite early
I had one. the gear loops may have held 10kn, I never put it to the test, but unfortunately the main webbing didnt seem all that durable and i replaced it after it started showing signs of wear round the buckle quite early
In reply to andrewmcleod:
More complexity in the manufacturing process, more testing needed, potentially more expense to the buyer. And clipping a gear loop is just one of a long list of serious user errors gear manufacturers could attempt to insure against: arguably no more likely than several others on the list. Hypothetically, you could go to all the trouble of buying a gear-loop-rated harness, and then clip your chalk bag belt by mistake the next day. So we'd better have 22KN chalk bag belts. Where does it end?
I have nothing against strong gear loops per se, but I would find it deeply worrying if my climbing partner derived "extra peace of mind" from having them, in case they "clip a gear loop rather". For what it's worth, on thousands of routes over decades of climbing I've never once belayed to a gear loop by mistake, and I'm confident that I never will. What I derive peace of mind from is knowing my climbing partners to be similarly trustworthy.
> But that has nothing to do with whether your gear loops are rated or not. There is no complexity added by having your gear loop more robust.
More complexity in the manufacturing process, more testing needed, potentially more expense to the buyer. And clipping a gear loop is just one of a long list of serious user errors gear manufacturers could attempt to insure against: arguably no more likely than several others on the list. Hypothetically, you could go to all the trouble of buying a gear-loop-rated harness, and then clip your chalk bag belt by mistake the next day. So we'd better have 22KN chalk bag belts. Where does it end?
I have nothing against strong gear loops per se, but I would find it deeply worrying if my climbing partner derived "extra peace of mind" from having them, in case they "clip a gear loop rather". For what it's worth, on thousands of routes over decades of climbing I've never once belayed to a gear loop by mistake, and I'm confident that I never will. What I derive peace of mind from is knowing my climbing partners to be similarly trustworthy.
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