UKH

I’ve just seen a company advertising trad gear falling courses , is it just me or does this not just seem like a great way to speed up the gear placement erosion of gritstone crags ? 
 

It depends where it's held, hopefully in a shitty quarry somewhere and not at somewhere like Stanage! I assume it comes with a top rope backup too.

Yes. I commented on the post they put in a Peak climbing partners group a long while ago, and was met with a reasonably put but disagreeable reply.

It also feels like it promotes that it's ok to fall on gear, when really it should be the ultimate in last resorts.. will it make those who attend more likely to push on to higher grades when they're not good enough, or simply 'give in' and fall off on routes that they'd capable of climbing but run out of steam or whatever? That to me feels like the unfortunate over riding message.

There's far too many examples to list of where repeated bad placements and falling on gear has ruined not only the aesthetics but also exploratory nature of on sighting even some low grade routes. 

It is ok to fall on gear.

Sorry, badly worded. Of course it's ok to fall on gear, if needs must. The point was that over reliance on actually doing so will increase wear and tear to the rock, so it should be avoided at all costs, ideally. Normalising it as something to be learned on a day out feels like the wrong message.

Yes, the world has gone mad.

Ever taken one?  I have.  Improved my climbing massively.

You're right but I think its important to perform real tests in a safe environment to help me make safe decisions and give me confidence when pushing myself. 

I'd imagine a 'How to Belay Your Leader Without Several Metres of Unnecessary Slack Out in a Big Loop Often Draping on the Ground' course might be more useful going on what I sometimes see in photos posted on here?

I do get where you're coming from and there are definitely routes which are suffering from worn out gear placements, both aesthetically and in terms of gear placement wear/hold wear. However, I think they're relatively few and far between and mostly in the peak district (I can't imagine there are many in the Lakes!). It would be nice if people chose to avoid leading those routes until they were pretty sure they'd not fall off, but I'm reticent to mandate what people can and can't choose to lead! A course on falling on trad gear is maybe even a good place to get across a message like this?

If I set off on a trad route at my limit (grade of route equal to my max uk trad grade, and excluding anything with a death fall) there's about a 50% chance I'll fall off. I don't think that's something I should be avoiding at all costs. In fact I think it's good for people's climbing to accept that falling on good gear is fine (other considerations like fall out zone etc. still apply regardless of gear or bolts).

By the way it was a sport falling course I took...  No trad placements worn out by me!

IMHO, there are too many variables for a blanket statement that it's fine to fall on gear.  Consequently, a practice fall in controlled circumstances contributes little beyond a subjective demonstration that the principle works in controlled circumstances.  There is of course no such thing as a controlled fall - the moment a climber loses contact with the rock, they also lose control of the fall - all they can do is try to manage whatever impact fate throws at them.

On the other hand, development of skill in placing gear is prudent.  However, a 'successful' fall in one scenario has no correlation with either the circumstances or outcome of another fall.

With my little arms and fat body, I'm currently falling off about half the grit HVS climbs I try. Does this mean I have to stop trying them? Am I only allowed to climb things I definitely won't fall off? Back to Dif I gooooooo!

If you'll permit me to chuck myself in hot water a little longer, what is the difference between me pushing my climbing ability on a physical level and someone pushing their climbing ability on a psychological one? It sounds like you are advocating for the latter to be banned. 

All I advocate is an informed awareness of the circumstances, risks and consequences of a fall - falling itself is safe - it's any sudden deceleration that smarts.   Pushing psychological boundaries maybe a matter of gauging the risks more effectively, or it may be blindly ignoring them.  The former is sound; the latter not.  If pushing physical boundaries also involves flawed risk assessments, then that way does trouble also lie.

Yeah I can’t imagine letting a load of metalwork fall down a grit edge does either much good. Ridiculous idea..

anyway, my trad gear is perfectly adept at falling all by itself. Doesn’t need any encouragement!

  There is of course no such thing as a controlled fall - the moment a climber loses contact with the rock, they also lose control of the fall - all they can do is try to manage whatever impact fate throws at them.

Not entirely true. I took a somewhat notorious fall near the top of a route which I believe had previously killed someone (I think he whanged into the rock and broke ribs which punctured a lung etc.)

Anyway  I was confident I knew how to fall safely and after a quick giggle with my belayer I made it second go. 

However learning to fall is probably best done at the wall, very well worth practising.

There's also that weird route on peak lime that requires you to go through a roof above the loweroff and then plop back on to it. 

There's more than just one of those! 

What percentage chance of falling on your gear is acceptable? Should headpointing be banned? Should Dave MacLeod exist?

I think Angus Kille and Hazel Findlay run a falling class. I guess if that’s what holding you back from performing at your best then it’s a weakness to be trained like any other.

It probably causes no more erosion from a single good placement and fall than someone at their limit trying 5 different pieces and attempting to weld each one in place before deciding it doesn’t fit and going on to the next size up.
 

I’m pretty sure driving to the same parking lot and walking the same paths causes more erosion at gritstone crags than a few falls. 

Quite apart from eroding gear placements, I think there are two separate topics here - fear of falling and not trusting trad runners. 

Falling practice is great for dealing with fear of falling. However the best place to practice falling is at an indoor wall, on a vertical or preferably overhanging section so you get a clean fall - the ‘best’ falls are into space where you don’t hit anything on the way down. Sport routes could also work for falling practice (as long as the bolts are in a good state) but again they need to be at least vertical, with no ledges or slabby sections to hit.

As for trusting trad gear, people shouldn’t need to test it to destruction by deliberately falling on it. The idea is to be able to tell by simply looking at a potential or actual placement whether it will be ‘good / bomber’, ‘ok but best backed up if possible’ or ‘rubbish / psychological’. That comes with experience. There are various ways to build that experience - placing lots of runners at the base of a crag and testing them by pulling on them, ideally with a more experienced climber helping to assess and improve the placements; placing lots of runners on easy routes and asking a more experienced climber to second the routes and assess the placements; and seconding more experienced climbers to see how they place gear.

There is also a risk of developing a false sense of security. Sometimes a marginal runner might hold a particular fall but that doesn’t mean it’s a good runner - it might not hold a second fall or a bigger fall or a fall from a slightly different direction.

On the whole, not a great idea. 

It’s fine to fall on gear on the right routes and if you have sufficient experience. In fact at your limit, accepting that you might fall off may be the only way to get a route started / done. However for beginners falling off is clearly a bad idea. 

Hi Misha, good post. I’d add that most trashing comes from just the placing of gear on high throughput routes, cams not being extended and rotating, and basic resting on gear which happens.

Also true that fall practice at the wall along the lines recommended by Dave Mac brings great benefits. In principle on trad, you’re right that a skilled practitioner can trust a good placement, or assess a poor one and just move on. However I think we operate better with experience rather than observation. Back when I started (40 ish years ago), the group I climbed with didn’t deliberately fall on gear. However, the on sight ethos was seen as less important than progression. This meant that there was a lot of lobbing onto gear on harder routes, which absolutely helped with confidence and being able to just focus on the climbing. It also sharpened ones ability to fall in the right way. At least one club I climbed with handed out awards at the dinner for biggest lob that year, and the jet lag award for most air time😂
However, most climbers operate well within their grades, never fall off, and have a great time, and on sight great routes. For most, I think trad falling practice is irrelevant.

You miss the point - I too can fall safely.  Anyone can do that.  There is one certainty - if you fall, there will be a deceleration.  The tricky bit is managing the deceleration. All you can do is hope that your mitigations to control and limit the deceleration will be effective, and attempt to deal with whatever events fate subsequently throws at you.

There's being perfectly capable of placing good gear (as evidenced by basic tests like it not falling out when you take the rope in and seconds not pissing themselves laughing or taking you to one side for a good talking to) and then there's believing it and being willing to accept the option of really trusting it.  It depends on how much you've been out recently and, for me, how I'm feeling more generally, which is a whole other issue.

My gear stays in, but I'm still always slightly amazed that it takes my weight on the rare occasions I'm left with that as the only option.  I have absolutely no doubt that a slightly more relaxed attitude to this would have increased my leading grade significantly.  It's still a work in progress, and I think doing more sport routes is a help (although many easier ones aren't really steep enough to experiment with this safely).     

Agreed, and your post above was well put.

I can see a logical progression towards a complete ban on climbing your sacred grit developing.

My first grit lead was in a blizzard on wet rock wearing my trainers using an 8ft sling as a harness. Shoot me now,sinner that I am.

Since then all manner of "restrictions" are being mooted.

No trainers/boots

No wet rock

Top roping/groups frowned upon

No fall practice.

It is only heading one way. Soon the question will be:

"what's he never done on grit" 

There are a considerable number in the lakes.

Allthough no one is banning anything and your free to act as you please, please don't do any of those things on popular grit routes. It just trashes them. It makes me very sad when I see instructors hauling groups of kids in muddy trainers up right unconcerable ect...

Back on subject who knew this was a thing! I think I need a course in how not to fall off trad.

This whole you have to do a course to learn grinds me. I suspect it will take much longer to progress through the grades down that route. How many 1st ascents of UK routes have been done by course attendees?. You can’t blame trainers for this trend though, as they are only fulfilling an apparent need.

In over 20 years of being a climbing instructor I have never told, or can remember hearing any other instructor say “You have to do a course”.

It’s just one option.

I went on a Learn to Lead Trad course at the age of 16, it worked well for me, and yes I have done a new route although only one as it’s not really my thing.

The (indoor) falling course I went on really wasn't about learning how to fall (although that was part of it), it was more about freeing yourself from the fear of falling being comfortable in doing so and being able to push right up to your limit.  There was lots of psychology involved!  

On the same course as me were people who had been climbing for over 20 years, and we all got something out of the course.

I honestly think anyone who climbs, regardless of whether they've been climbing decades or days would get something out of the course I took.  There was a massive improvement in my climbing afterwards. 

We spend so much time talking about training our bodies and so little about training our minds when sometimes, I think we would all admit, it's our mind that's stopping us from doing something rather than our bodies!

It was a Hazel Findlay course I went on by the way.  Very recommended. 

It is not those acts that trash the popular routes, they happen so infrequently. It is the popularity which trashes them. The guidance or restrictions mooted are just scapegoating. It is a snobby attitude of it can't be me I am a real climber, I have climbed this route a hundred times. 

What about, "How to belay and text simultaneously." I had one of those, not for long though, and thankfully prior to smartphones.

I just did Topsail (VS 4c) earlier this evening. The cam placement under the roof is completely square cut and, well, cam shaped now! I've done it once before, in 2016 I think, and although both times I've been seconding, I don't remember it looking like that just five years ago. Funnily enough I had just got round to finally leading Powder Monkey Parade the route before and had found a similar but smaller square eroded shape on the back the block the route finishes on. I didn't have the right sized cam left, so had to build my belay elsewhere, but considering I climb regularly on Eastern Grit I don't think I've seen such obvious cam-wear slots as on Birchen.

Yes, all deeply depressing. I'm sure Topsail 30 years ago could be perfectly protected at the crux by either a mini-MOAC or a small-medium hex. No damage at all. Now most of those routes are utterly trashed. Climbing at its most incompetent and childish (i.e. avoid absolutely ANY risk) has reduced it to this. I hope to god the traverse on Powder Monkey Parade hasn't now been similarly trashed. What's so weird is that there are now all these people going climbing who aren't really interested in the climbing as such, but are obsessed by protection. Birchens was virtually a solo crag in the old days.

PS. By the last I meant that most normal climbers (like myself) would occasionally feel a bit wimpish and would stick in about one nut runner on some of the longer (i.e. 20 feet plus!) routes.

Birchen rock is very soft. The cam slots in it are pretty bad tbh but they're not there from people falling on them.

I imagine that at this time of year most keen, competent climbers will not be going to the baby outcrops like Birchens but to the great crags of Kinder North in droves.

... not.

I wonder if there’s any correlation with the increase in sport climbing and expectation of protection? I’ve belayed some predominantly sport climbers on trad routes and all they’ve done on their way up is commentate on the state (good or bad) of the protection. Barely any comment on the quality of the climbing, rock features etc.. 

Obviously can’t speak for you but if someone is concerned about falling on say a perfectly solid nut 5, I suspect it could be more about fear of falling than concern about what they’re falling onto. Experienced climbers should be able to tell if a piece is good and rationalise that it’s ok to fall off onto it (subject to fall zone considerations). However they might still be scared to fall off due to a fundamental fear of falling - something a lot of climbers suffer from to an extent, myself included.

Of course it’s healthy to an extent, particularly when the gear is poor. However taking practice falls on poor gear could lead to a false sense of security. It might hold but a similar piece in a real world situation might not.

I guess a good way to test my theory is to see whether someone experienced who is afraid of falling on good trad gear is happy to fall off all day on a sport route. 

I've never climbed on grit so I don't know the areas, local traditions etc, but if Birchens is so soft has anyone in the past ever mooted a knotted-cord runner only ethic, of the sort associated with Czech and eastern German sandstone? I played around with this some years ago and it worked very well, especially on rounded rock types like Torridonian sandstone.

I had a flatmate who'd grown up in the DDR with the knotted rope tradition, when I took him to Northumberland he was appalled that we used metal on it, and despite it being the local norm, he refused to place anything other than his knots.

I can't get the link to copy but have a look at climbing magazine's weekend whipper.

This week it shows some exciting fall practice. 

Even though we know by now that your style tends towards the hyperbolic and the judgemental, you have really gone for it in this post!

Are they? Which ones? What is "utterly trashed" as opposed to merely "trashed"? I would have thought it would be impossible to climb an utterly trashed route - but checking my logbook I've recorded 73 routes at Birchen. Many are obviously popular, although some seem virtually un-climbed, but I don't remember any of them being "trashed"; utterly or just slightly. Polished holds here and there and an absence of lichen on some lines certainly - and a few visibly worn cam and nut slots also, but it doesn't stop Powder Monkey Parade or Top Sail being good routes.

Who are these people? What was the sample size in your opinion survey where you discovered that "all these people" going climbing weren't interested in climbing but were just "obsessed" by protection? I've climbed with quite a few people over the last three decades but don't remember anyone who didn't seem interested in the climbing, but only in the protection. Having said that, you should get out sport climbing because that's where you're going to meet 'your people' - some people prefer sport because they are only interested in the climbing and not in fiddling about with nuts and cams.

And I feel I should note in my defence that of the 73 Birchen routes I've climbed, most were solos when out on my own. I do tend to wear crack gloves though, so perhaps I don't fully get away from the charge of "[c]limbing at its most incompetent and childish".

Oh, and by the by - I happened to have climbed Murray's Route (S 4a) and Eliminate 'A' (VS 4c) last Saturday. I ran pitch one and two of Eliminate A together, to make a rather exciting 35-40 mtr pitch. I found the whole route somewhat intimidating because it never looked like there was going to be much protection. As you climb you find actually there actually is - certainly enough to stop the VS climber of limited bravery (me) from totally losing it, but all those wire placements were actually worn and incredibly obvious because clearly thousands of nervous leaders over the decades previously have been using the same placements. I don't know if the placements have worn enough over the years to take different sized nuts, but visible wear from placements on popular routes is very definitely not an issue only with cams on grit.

In reply to 

Nobody could accuse me of being happy to fall off any kind of route!

A nice idea but as the protection mostly comes in rounded horizontal breaks rather than sinker vertical cracks,  I'm not sure it would work so well. 

Sail buttress has a bomber thread just before the crux so the worn cam slot just above it is a totally unneccessary placement; it's there for people who want gear above them always.

I can't say I've really noticed worn gear anywhere else on grit. You occasionally see a cam slot that's obviously been used in horizontal breaks but they aren't visibly different to the untrained eye (unlike birchen). Footholds on classic easy routes are much more of a concern. 

If you want to complain about visible gear damage, you could always go and shout at the peg cracks at Millstone? People seem to like those though. 

Not really.

Were they leading?  If they don't lead trad routes very often then it's hardly surprising that they were focussed on quality of protection.  Bit odd for them to focus on that if they were seconding - maybe your placements suck and they were trying to do you a favour

But really, blaming sport climbers on the condition of the routes at Birchen?  Might as well blame boulderers for the state of polish on the 7as at Malham.

Sorry, that line wasn't aimed at you as much as the OP.

I don't think it's that simple; our confidence is informed by our previous experiences, and if you've never fallen on trad gear you may be able to rationalise all day long, but it's a big leap from knowing gear is good to being willing to gamble your life on it.

To take a non-climbing example, I know I can jump 9' every day of the week. It's a big leap from doing that on flat ground to doing it over a high gap though. One develops the confidence  to do it over high gaps by practicing endlessly at a safe height until one is so sure of their abilities that the result is a foregone conclusion.

I think the same theory applies to gear. And sometimes we are wrong too — I know a friend who placed two bomber bits of gear in a belay, totally beyond question, only for one to immediately pop when their second fell off. Knowing is one thing, but many people want some real and controlled experience to inform their decisions.

Not that I'm arguing that this idea is a good one. I actually think it's stupid. But I can definitely understand why people might want to actually see what happens when they fall off before they're in extremis and scared out of their mind.

I haven't blamed sport climbers for the condition of routes at Birchen, I haven't even mentioned the dump  

But yes, they lead.. and are competent trad climbers too. Just an observation I've made over the years. Partners who only climb trad tend to barely talk about the gear but those who sport climb also tend to talk about only gear. Obviously a small selection of climbers that've formed my network. Not suggesting it's a bad trait or anything, just sometimes it comes across like they're not even enjoying it  

Which probably answers the question - the real issue is probably fear of falling…

If you do enough climbing close to your limit you will test the gear reasonably regularly anyway. Of course some people never fall off because they don’t push themselves. There are various reasons for not wanting to push yourself (and there’s nothing wrong with climbing within your grade, in fact I quite like it sometimes). A basic fear of falling (regardless of whether it’s trad or sport) is one of those reasons. People would be better off addressing that at the wall or a steep sport crag. So I sort of agree with you but I think trad falling practice is a misplaced idea.

As for your friend, clearly if a piece ripped then it wasn’t bomber, at least not in the direction of pull. Sounds like inexperience at judging gear placements but trad falling practice wouldn’t really address that - climbing with more experienced people would. 

You’ve massively over simplified a huge subject.

I understand your point. However, if we are taking safety and this can mean life or death, or the prevention of serious injury, then how are we to know if our placements are good if we never test them? Surely pushing your “limits” when not completely sure of your competency of gear placements is irresponsible? I think some fall practice is invaluable to developing as a climber, although I can concede that it should be a rare or occasional venture,

2/10

Obvious. Why so many bites?

No, I suppose you didn't. I probably made a link you didn't intend based on the post you were replying to 

Can't say I've noticed that sort of a trait personally - I'll have to look out for it (especially in myself as a 90% sport 10% trad climber).  Personally I tend to notice the overall situation (position, quality of rock, view, general vibe, etc) rather more trad climbing than sport.  Maybe because the trad climbing I do tends to be fairly easy and the sport climbing somewhat harder (for me) so I tend to be more focused on the climbing than I do on trad, where I have more mental and physical capacity in hand.

If you're enjoying it then you're not trying hard enough

Are you suggesting such a company doesn't exist?  Because if so they absolutely do.

If that's not what you're suggesting then in what way is the OP a troll?  Seems like a pretty decent topic for discussion to me.

 I guess if that’s what holding you back from performing at your best then it’s a weakness to be trained like any other.

Im not sure seconding E7s , consistently climbing E5 and onsighting 7b would constitute being “held back”? 

Oh god i didn’t mean you personally  - that would be just plain rude. I was talking purely in the abstract.

should’ve written: I guess if that’s what holding one back from performing at their best then it’s a weakness to be trained like any other.

I’m not a troll , I’m genuinely concerned and slightly pissed off someone has the audacity/stupidity/ignorance in their course info to effectively say “and of course we will practice falling on real gear”

I have no issue with coaching courses in general  or psychological ones. I have issues with taking money to do an activity that F**ks up the rock and I’m betting it’s run on a premium crag like Stanage not some rats arse quarry

As I’ve said, climbing with more experienced people or going on a course is the best way to have your gear placements evaluated. Then eventually you will fall off and test it for yourself - but by that stage you should have a solid grounding in gear placement (if not, don’t get on routes you might fall off on).

On a practical point, to make trad falling practice safe you’d need to be on a slack top rope (otherwise it’s no different to falling off ‘for real’). It also needs to be vertical or overhanging as you need a safe fall zone. I would venture that most people who aren’t sure of their gear placements aren’t going to be able to climb vertical or overhanging ground anyway. 

I've seen people use a fixed static with quickdraws fixed to alpine BFs so people can clip their rope in as backup below the gear they're testing. That's if it's not some shitty bolted quarry anyway. The ideal is placing gear on sport routes. 

I wrote a comprehensive reply, but on reflection it's rambling and doesn't contribute anything new or useful to the conversation. I don't think you've really understood what I was trying to say.

I think you need to ask yourself what possible routes exist to go from trad novice to happily lobbing left, right and centre. Clearly this is one of them, and clearly it is going to appeal to some people. It's clearly not aimed at or going to be useful to an experienced climber who is regularly testing their gear, so it's somewhat irrelevant to mention those people in that context.

Clearly. Said friend is also an experienced climber and a competent engineer though, and more than capable of understanding how force will come onto gear and in which directions said gear could be expected to be good in. It's not surprising, therefore, that some people who've not had cause to test gear from above nor feel that they would like some more concrete data to inform decisions that could have life-changing or life-ending consequences.

Ah yes, because the lucky few among us are gifted with gear omniscience and unfailing care, and will never be surprised by a placement unexpectedly failing? I've never had it happen, but I'm not stupid enough to put money on my streak lasting.

Not that I'm arguing that this idea is a good one. I actually think it's stupid.