https://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/dbpage.php?id=426359
What are they doing Simu Climbing?
The top person appears to be leading and they look to be roped together.
I don't know for certain, but my bet would be that the top person is just belaying but has chosen to position themselves hanging over the edge. Maybe for communication in the evidently windy conditions. Maybe to support the second for the notorious top out, or to be out of the way of them doing their best walrus impression.
The leader is probably direct belaying at the top and have positioned themselves so they can see the second climb.
They are questing. Not just climbing. This explains it, but it needs to be stopped.
It was the word questing that made me wonder if they were two hot shots Simu Climbing, also the obvious thing would be the top climber is belaying, but their body position looks to me like they are climbing.
The angle of the photo could be misleading but the top person looks like they're in a higher position than could easily be sustained by the famously somewhat lacking holds on the top shelf if they were climbing, which is what pushed me strongly towards belaying.
With a horizontal chalk bag, maybe the leader has taken up this position on the belay for some shelter from the wind.
> They are questing. Not just climbing. This explains it, but it needs to be stopped.
Pulling shapes, I think you'll find.
It doesn't look to me as if the upper person is belaying. And if someone brought me up standing in that position, with hands and feet positioned like that, I wouldn't be happy
For RU that's a pretty odd position to top out from (and a very casual pose off some very rounded holds!) But then again it's a pretty odd position to belay from... but when the quest calls you gotta answer.
If they are belaying, it's almost certainly direct off the anchor in guide mode, which would make that a pretty safe position. I wouldn't have a problem with it.
> If they are belaying, it's almost certainly direct off the anchor in guide mode, which would make that a pretty safe position. I wouldn't have a problem with it.
You're right Luke, I stand corrected, thanks
Same guy: https://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/dbpage.php?id=426498
Well done Sherlock. Thanks
> Pulling shapes, I think you'll find.
Does one 'pull' shapes? I've always thought faces are pulled, whilst trying hard, whereas shapes are thrown. Or is throwing shapes more of a dancefloor thing?
Do you mean the belayer? They are both called Luca but in one the surname is Benjamin and the other Karjalainen, which seems a strange coincidence! I only noticed because Karjalainen is a very Finnish surname, but I don't think I've ever met a Finn called Luca. But a quick google shows Luca is very much a real person posting on here and writing this excellent little article on the CAC website: https://www.climbersagainstcancer.org/story/cancer-you-cant-change-but-life...
How does the second manage to climb this with his head obviously decapitated!
It's weirdly (and disturbingly?) easy to track people down in the modern world :/ ... but for the sake of understanding the belaying: I'd assume it's euro-style guide mode with the gent in question on an extended lanyard so as to be able to see down the route.
The leader set up a hanging belay having failed on the desperate top-out. Little does the poor second realise he is going to have to lead through on what is now the crux second pitch
... facing the prospect of a factor 2 fall.
I wondered about that. I have never understood fall factors, but I do know I found that top out hard, and felt fall offable. And wondered if as the second went past the belayer and fell backward, there would be maybe 3 or 4 feet of rope out, so they may fall 6 or 8 feet below the belay device, and thought this maybe a bad thing to happen.
I did the desperate top-out grovel once, subsequently I just moved left and exited through the niche. It's not a climbing wall!
I soloed it a few years ago forgetting about the topout, needless to say it hasn't make it on to my regular Stannage solo circuit, absolutely harrowing!
> For RU that's a pretty odd position to top out from (and a very casual pose off some very rounded holds!) But then again it's a pretty odd position to belay from... but when the quest calls you gotta answer.
particularly when the quest is to find the unconquerable bits.
> I wondered about that. I have never understood fall factors, but I do know I found that top out hard, and felt fall offable. And wondered if as the second went past the belayer and fell backward, there would be maybe 3 or 4 feet of rope out, so they may fall 6 or 8 feet below the belay device, and thought this maybe a bad thing to happen.
In theory, the fall factor is simply the distance fallen divided by the length of rope out. So for single pitch falls the FF cannot normally be greater than 1, since falling 10m with 10m of rope out would land you on the ground. For multi-pitch the FF cannot normally be greater than 2, which would mean having no gear in, falling straight past the belayer and a similar distance below.
In practice the FF has a big effect on the abruptness of the fall, as it's very difficult to give any kind of soft catch with a FF2 fall.
Taking the OP's photo as an example, let's assume rope stretches around 10% in a fall (which is probably an overestimate except in severe falls but good enough for the example). Falling off the top mantle move (at around 10m height), with gear 1m below you, will give a 2m fall on 10m of rope, but then the rope will stretch by up to a metre, extending the fall to 3m but giving plenty of cusioning in the process. Falling from the same place with only 1m of rope out will still give a 2m fall but the rope will stretch only 10cm or so, which is hardly anything, and it most likely will feel like a very hard fall. All this would be compounded by there being little to no help a hanging belayer could give in giving a dynamic belay, compared to a belayer on the ground who could easily allow himself to be pulled up another metre or so, thereby elongating but cushioning the fall yet further.
Bit late to this thread, but I liked Joe Brown's response when asked if he didn't find the top out a bit harrowing on the FA:
'Nah - I was a bag of muscle in those days...'
> They are both called Luca but .....
One of them never washes apparently, he's filthy luca to his friends.