UKH

And there isn't a thread on UKClimbing?

Things have changed...

What's the story?

Found on farcebook :

Today some lowlife(s) have sunk two rawlbolts into the top of Low Man at Almscliff. About 6 metres back from the edge around the top of Wharfedale Wall / Fluted Columns. It was done this morning and witnessed by a fellow climber - who had not climbed on grit for 20 years and thus was uncertain if the ethics had changed. They were a "3 generation" group - "grandfather" and it seems his offspring. The offending items are two steel expansion sockets around 9/16" diameter and what I would reckon to be M8 female threads. Apparently they drilled the holes, inserted these and then bolted hangers to them. which they removed before they then departed. I rang the BMC but they were out! I presume the BMC have a protocol for dealing with such things. If not, I think it would be not too taxing to render them unusable, but I am busy for the next few days.

They are within a couple of metres of the old graffito.

Also a follow up from the BMC saying they are aware and are arranging removal

What do you call this then? A diesel locomotive?

Total madness. Just seen on FB that they removed the bolts as soon as they'd placed them. Wonder if someone gave them what for...

Can't imagine my reaction if I'd been there. It's like pissing in the font at church! 

It's worse because it's permanent damage. It's like drilling holes in the font.

Carved out of a piece of stone ripped out of a quarry!

Why the BMC?. No protocol, just take them out and fill the holes

https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=almscliff%20bolts

“** Important** This matter is now being dealt with by the local BMC people. Please do NOT in the meantime try to get these things out. We now have a clear idea of what they are and are seeking professional advice on the best approach to getting them out. Thanks.”

I think in these situations it’s easier to add more heat than light. Let the right people deal with it for the best outcome.

It’s possible to make a right lash up removing stuff.

Unbelievable...

Andy Say put them in as a false flag operation.

Wow what an insensitive act. It's hard to believe an intergenerational group was so far removed from our widely accepted ethics or lacked the nous to find out to the extent that ignorance is hardly a defence. 

I haven't climbed at Almscliff for many years but my fading memory is that some of the anchors for Low Man were not the most ideal or obvious considering that they serve most of the crags lower graded routes and may see traffic from less experienced climbers. Could a stake or 2 limit the chances of this happening again maybe? Or a big fat anchor rock? 

Care to elaborate on what you are disagreeing/disliking folks as I'm left guessing... Are the anchors better than my memory of them? Was it the mention of a stake? Was it the radical suggestion of a rock? I'm just throwing ideas out there...

Whilst it’s not the easiest place to set up a belay at the top it’s hardly the hardest either and generations of climbers have been managing it without stakes or boulders or what not.

And one incident does not make problem. We don’t need to rush into finding a ‘solution’ for a problem that doesn’t really exist.

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying. Maybe they aren't as bad as I remember then. I seem to remember some of them being quite distant and off to the side. I think my worry was that the scars left behind could set some kind of horrible precedent for further vandalism.

I'd go as far as saying the placements are almost perfect for beginners - that is they're not easy/perfect placements but they are there and can be placed with nothing but nuts and slings. No need for any exotic protection. It's a relatively safe environment to practice in. Last thing you want is to only be able to belay off a sturdy tree or placement only to find yourself wanting in a more dangerous environment.

I'm just utterly baffled by human behaviour sometimes. They've come armed with a drill so it's not just some spur of the moment brain fart....

I don't generally have expansion bolts and hangers in my back pocket, either. As you say, this was certainly planned.

I'm trying to get into their minds to see what on earth they were thinking. Lets try this hypothetical one then: let say their only experience of seeing rock climbers could have been a sport venue. Could they have assumed that if it was OK there that placing your own bolts was the norm on all UK rock? Without a guidebook or other experienced climber to tell them otherwise they might have thought its was fine and just the done thing. Are we really getting to the sad stage where we'll need a notice board in the carpark listing the local ethics for popular roadside picnic crags like this one?

Cliffhanger...?

So, bolting, spray marking holds

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rock_talk/no_spray_painted__orange_spots_...

What next? Chipping?

Not recent, but...

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/crag_access/idwal_slabs_descent_vandalism...

You've no evidence of that, so why propose it?  Why blame sport climbing until there's evidence that this is the case?

I thought the same, to hypothesise that a group of people have only ever seen sport climbing, and therefore that’s inspired them to go and drill anchor bolts on top of a trad crag (bearing in mind sport climbs don’t even top out like that) is a hell of a leap.

If they’d tried to bolt the route somehow then maybe, but this doesn’t seem likely to me. 

Whoa there, coming in hot. It's a discussion forum. I'm not blaming anyone/anything. Just throwing out a discussion point. I think we may over-estimate the knowledge that many non-climbers* may have about different rock types let alone different styles of the sport. I'm just trying to trying to figure out how they could have thought it was OK. All these distinctions are obvious to those of us already immersed in the hobby but maybe not to everyone.

With climbing becoming so popular it would hardly be surprising if we see more of this sort of thing happening. A little thinking around the issue can't hurt...

This quote is my original post on a Facebook group: (Yorkshire Climbers with a day off). I was informed of the anchors on Thursday afternoon (25th), photographed them and set about contacting the BMC. The **Important*** post quoted later is also mine as by then the BMC had arranged for two local reps (and myself) to try and remove them on Monday (29th). In the event they were dealt with on the Saturday by covering them with a resin/grit mix. I just wish I had got to the crag in the morning, as we would have been climbing right there and could likely have stopped it happening. Ironically the two bolts (actually female threaded expansion fixings) are within a couple of metres of more cam placements than you could shake a stick at. Specifically they are about 6 metres back from the top of Wharfedale Wall.  (Why can a member not post a photo?)

Interesting you describe the anchor like that. It sounds like some kind of drop in anchor (from what you say) which would be ideal to bolt down racking onto a concrete floor of a warehouse. But it also sounds very non climbing in method, which makes me wonder if this is ignorance the people of outdoor climbing rather than people who do climb but don't care/agree with custom.

Looking at the timeline you didn't give it very long!!

Seems like there was a good reason for not broadcasting this.

Thanks for trying to sort this out. All I'd add is that we all naturally see things through a climbing lens. Not an excuse at all, but not everyone is immersed in our culture and don't get the ethical handwringing we go through. Or they may be part of an entirely different culture like slacklining with possibly different norms. Heck even the local church has placed bolts at Helsby (years ago, to fix a cross to the top of the hill every Easter).  

Let's not crucify them for that.

It's possible they are ignorant of climbing culture/ethics AND also don't care.