UKH

I pose this question after recently doing my first E1, a slab at Froggatt. What are some good E1s to E3s which are well protected? 
 

Having done Motorcade I don’t fancy the obvious progression of RatBag or even further Four Pebble. 

I tend to find gravity works quite equally across all grades.

It depends on if the route is well protected or not. You can have well protected E9s and unprotected diffs. Both parts of the trad grade give a idea of whether a route will be relatively safer to fall off than not. So if you're after e1's that are well protected, maybe look for e1 5c/6a in the guide, rather than E1 4c/5a's. 

Most grit classics E1 to E5 even are  safe with the correct approach. Slabs tend to be more runout but safe ones can be found:

living at speed - e1 5b - bomber cams 

long tall sally - e1 5b - gear in the corner all the way up

commander energy - e2 5c - safe lower slab crux if careful with gear 

Smear test e3 6a at roaches - side runners make the whole slab traverse safe

time for tea e3 5c - its a fair runout to the top but the fall is tested

telli e3 6a - a bit bold on lower wall but can use a pad 

impossible slab e3 5c- bold crux but the gear will hold you well off the ground

San Melas e3 5c at roaches skyline - safe as long as you don't fall from the easier top

Jetrunner e4 6a but more like e3 - safe with right assortment of micro gear 

Personally i think Four pebble is safe enough and easy for E3. Theres good gear before starting the upper slab. If you fell off above would hurt your ankles (or worse) but not hit the ground. It would be hard to fall though if you trust your feet. 

This should answer your question:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/ticklists/classic_lobs-2759

I regularly fall off that grade range and sometimes fall off a tad harder! I have yet to seriously hurt myself but It does take some experience knowing when you can do this and can't however, and big trad falls are rarely "safe" there's always a lot that can go wrong in terms of getting tangled in the rope, inverting etc.

I would however not contemplate falling off those routes you mentioned, infact I wouldn't even get on them nowadays, even though they are technically easy. Such is the joy's of British trad, you need to take each climb on its own merits, the grade is just a rough guide.

It might not feel like it but there are plenty of safe routes in the extremes.

The problem I (and probably you also, as you sound like a similar level) have found with natural grit E1s is that they tend to fall into one of two categories: Either pretty soft 5b but you can't fall off, or desperately hard and safe. There are a few that are not totally desperate and safe however. 

Strapiombante (E1 5b)

Kelly's Overhang (E1 5c)

The Left Unconquerable (E1 5b)

The Link (E1 5b)

Lamebrain (E1 5b)

Nonsuch (E1 5b)

Vibrio (E1 5b)

Lancaster Flyby (E1 5b)

Safety Net (E1 5b)

The couple of E2s that come to mind also being:

White Out (E2 5c)

Brightside (E2 5c)

Though I don't think E2 is as bad to get in to as E1 is on grit. 

For quarried grit and lime (and most other rock types I can think of), I don't think there is as much of a barrier in getting safely up the grades as on natural grit. I've done a few lime and quarried grit E1s but a natural grit E1 still eludes me (in part because I haven't tried many, for the reason above).  

Really? Not sure I’d want to test that from the sketchy move to reach the break under the roof!

I would throughly recommend getting a side runner in the v diff on the left. I didn't coz I am dead hard and I take a rather puratanical view of such things (allthough less so nowadays). If I were to do it again though I probably would as their is a real risk of destroying flake on the face if you fell on it, it seemed very fragile to me, and the good bit is the top slab anyway.

This

After you have taken the obvious information available by reading route descriptions and looking at tech grade vs adjectival grade, I would say that generally longer and steeper routes are safer than shorter and slabbier routes. But there is such a wide variety at every grade that generalisations like this are almost meaningless.

Lower graded routes are very often more dangerous to fall on because they have a low angle and lots of things to hit if you fall. I don't know many HS or VS routes where you could fall of anywhere willy nilly without getting banged up but at E1 to E3, there are lots of routes that are steep enough and devoid of big blocks and ledges so you can increasingly get away with taking small falls with minimal risk.

Thanks! I think that about sums up what I was after 

Thanks for all your replies. Talking to people with more experience on this topic helps me rationalise how people can consistently perform at this grade. 

You can always convert Ratbag from E2 5b to HVS 5b by plonking a bombproof runner in the crack on Tody's Wall. Certainly mentions that it's HVS with side runners in the 1985 Derwent Gritstone guide.

And of course you could have done the same with Motorcade on the other side.

Perhaps you're right I've seen some ascents with less than satisfactory gear for that move. The gear I had I thought was bomber but it did take a while to fiddle in 

Nonsuch (E1 5b) felt pretty desperate to me.

And me but I'm assuming that was due to a lack of talent rather than it being over graded (especially as it used to go at hvs!)

By my rough benchmarking scale of how hot and bothered I get on a route* I thought it was a pretty standard E1 5b. Not easy but proper E1 rarely is!

* E1 = I will get a bit sweaty and flustered at some point.

E2 = Long periods of dry mouth and very sweaty, possible grunting.

E3 = don't notice as it requires 100% focus on not falling off and am far to scared to worry.

E4 = my brain has run out of my ears and I remember nothing 

Remember HVS slots in midway down that scale

HVS can be any one of those......

Deaths happen on leader falls where the gear & belayer holds and the leader has a helmet.  They're always head injuries despite the helmet.

Not so much (if at all) at Froggatt but it can happen

From what I remember of motorcade anyone falling off with a side runner in Tody's wall is still going to have a horrendous case of grit rash! You would of course probably have broken angles if you hit the ledge from the crux moves on motorcade, although I remember the brass wires being decent (albeit a bit lower than I would have liked).

Dear OP, this is basically a list of routes to avoid. Some serious willy waving going on here.

Seriously? 

 Can you name a list or even any safer grit slabs between e1 and E3? 

Thought relevant since the OP mentioned motorcade, ratbag and four pebble (all slabs, all far boulder)

It's not like I reccomended wall end slab direct or great slab

There's not always injuries despite the helmet. I have seen helmets save climbers from serious injury and certain death on several occasions. On the other hand, I have seen head injuries on climbers without helmets, and it is not a pretty sight.

Absolutely, he said he's done one E1 and doesn't fancy Rat Bag or Four Pebble Slab. 

Most of your slabs are harder and more run out...

I'm not the only one to think this if you look at the judgement on your original post.

Wall End Slab Direct Finish (E3 5c) was my second (*) extreme lead (40 years ago) with very spaced gear although the climbing felt ok (one of those brilliant days). I had previously seconded a certain J Moffatt up Wall End Slab Direct (E2 5b) but the direct finish was totally onsight (but only given E2 5b at the time).  I only got scared on it when seconding someone else a few years later who got loads more gear in and realising how my own lead was not that far off being a solo trailing a rope - I might have missed the ground.

Funnily enough my first extreme lead was Commander Energy (E2 5c) - no side runners but I had top roped it on a previous occasion. I nearly soloed that some years later (made the crux stretch on the slab but didn't have the confidence to then pull on the "hold" to stand up and continue - phew).

(") - there may have been earlier leads of climbs that are now given an E grade.

Obviously in hindsight, I used to be ok on boldish slabs.

I'm not sure things ever really got better than that.

Having said all that, I wouldn't recommend either of them as an early E lead 

Are you saying you think that you're *less* likely to die if you fall without a helmet on? Or that wearing a helmet doesn't reduce the probability of death / serious injury? 

E1: Left Unconquerable, The Link, The Vice, The Unprintable, Left Eliminate, Dark Continent, Surform, L'Horla, Dexterity, Mississippi Variant Direct, Jeepers Creepers, Strapiombo

E2: less experience here but safe falls I've tested: The Dangler, The Rasp 

Flying Buttress Direct, (controversial grade I know), but well tested safe whips (once you've got the cam in the lip, probably not a lot of fun swinging into the slab if you fluff that placement).

I've seen my mate take the fall into the slab after kicking the cam out, the piece that caught was on the block at the back of the roof. He hit the slab on stretch which didn't look great fun but he was unharmed.

Treating trad routes as honorary sport routes will result in them getting more and more and more trashed. 

Lovely routes will be destroyed.  

Mick 

Whilst I very much agree, I don't think anyone is really talking about that here.  For me one of the absolute joy's of climbing is setting out with an uncertain outcome, finding that edge of your limit, knowing you will have to be at your absolute best and give it total commitment to get to the top.  This means inevitably sometimes you are going to end up the wrong side of your limit and fall. Outwith a few routes with fragile and overly warn placements climbing until you fall off is one of the great experiences of trad IMHO (when it is safeish!)

'...well tested safe whips...' [From a post above]  Doesn't sound a million miles away. 

I've seen an awful lot of videos of people slinging in cams, willy nilly and lobbing on to them as though they were bolts. (For instance there was a guy on Youtube doing exactly that on the fragile flake on Tippler Direct.) 

Agree with the rest of your post. 

Mick 

I just thought the phrasing so odd I assumed chatbot.

I had a BD size 4 in the big break and 2 Dragonfly’s around mid height (where I believe you would have had the brass nuts)

That sounds about right, I had a Friend 5 in the break and opposed brassies in the pocket.

I've not done many but tend to go for the well protected but a little harder type. Some ideas:

Auricle (E2 5c)

Wrong Hand Route (E1 5c)

Regent Street (E2 5c)

Millsom's Minion (E1 5b) (barely E1 though)

Surform (E1 5b)

I havnt done it but its been pointed out to me by a good source as safe. Allthough I also understand its bloody desperate!

Safe enough but you got to be solid at the grade to get the gear in.

Asp. It’s not desperate, just sustained but after the start above the head pro. and can be sandy after rain. For a rock solid extremely well protected E3, Tippler direct takes some beating, but some people may find a stopper move reaching the break on the original.

Two mentioned.

Telli - chap I was belaying fell and popped his runners. Landed sat on the ground with a boulder between his legs. Laughed and got back on. (Edit: not suggesting this the normal out come from such a fall)

San Melas - friend I was belaying fell from near the top. I stopped him decking by jumping backwards down hill

There are literally hundreds of well protected E1 to E3 routes in the peak, on both grit and limestone. Generally routes that follow cracks will be well protected. Millstone Edge as an example has a load of safe routes in the low E grades.

I went to Burbage Edge a couple of days ago and did 3 E1’s, I would say they were all safe.

If you read the guidebook and look at the route you should be able to tell if a route is safe.

Hi Mick, I feel seen!!

I was one of the ‘lobbing lemmings’ in the early ‘80s progressing by treating hard routes like sports routes. Mea culpa mate.

Yes, Paul, but you were somewhat of a special case, coming into climbing pretty cold and then being egged on by good climbers in your house.

And you were part of a small demographic. If you'd started a while earlier, you couldn't have done that (no cams and shit wires). If you'd started a bit later, you could have gone straight onto sport. 

So I don't think much damage to the rock was done, back then. But I suspect it's a very different situation now. 

Thus my concern. 

Mick 

Falling off never hurt anyone. It's landing that's painful

Came here to suggest just that. Be careful of placing a cam behind the creaky flake.

Weirdly, all the E3's I can think of at Stanage are better protected than any of the E2's?!

I also found (when I used to be good enough to climb these routes) that low e grades on limestone felt much better protected than equivalent routes on grit

Strangely enough, years ago, the first person I saw doing this on grit, i.e. pre placing gear, practicing moves and then going for a red point was of all people “The Boss”. I gave him some right stick, but we all laughed about it.

Has anyone mentioned Wuthering (E2 5b) yet?  With  the cheeky high runner in the chimney the weird committing do-the-splits-and-swing-across move is pretty much on a toprope, and after that the slab feels run out but is quite adequately protected.

I don't think you really get the E2 tick with the high runner in the chimney but who cares?  (Also it's a good idea to place a cam on that rope well over to one side after you top out - otherwise the second is facing a much nastier fall on that move than the leader was.)

Not been mentioned yet, and it's probably not the kind of route the OP is looking for. I saw someone lead it last year, and I could barely watch. They had a runner in the chimney, although I'm sure it could be placed higher if wanted.

I don't really know exactly what the OP is looking for.  The obvious answer is technically harder routes with better pro (where the 'E' stands for 'effort'), and the really obvious answer is crack routes that will take as much pro as you can carry.  But since we seem to be talking about slabs.. 

(FWIW.. if the bit you could barely watch was the boulder-problem move to get established on the slab, I don't think the runner in the chimney can have been the one I'm thinking of.)

Twas only E1 back in't day - another example of becoming a better climber every time a guidebook's published 😁

Yeah, it said E2 in the book when I did it but I'm only claiming an E1 tick.

I think E2 would be fair enough without the high runner for the funky move.  (But then it wouldn't be at all ok to fall off, so obviously not something I'd be suggesting to the op.)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/RockClimbingUK/permalink/6626951270690745/

I get that instructors need to make a living, but running courses on falling on trad gear seems to be the point at which we've stopped protecting routes for future generations.

Did it a couple of years ago. Fell of on the first go. Gear is good, fall is clean, climbing is go-ey. Trust your instincts and it's ok, doubt yourself, as I did, and you're off.

Agreed - iirc Flying Buttress Direct (E1 5b) has (had?) a reputation for breaking ankles of unlucky leaders if you fell badly into the slab, despite being well protected:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/stanage_popular-104/flying_buttres...

And then there's Browns Eliminate at E2 5b (Froggatt) - which is often soloed, as the gear is all below 1/2 height anyway!

Worst fall I've ever had was off an HVS 5c (Chequers Crack @ Froggatt) - foot went the wrong side of the rope, resulting in a horrible friction burn down the back of my leg!

It used to be graded E1 - and I think that's probably fairer. It would be odd not to use that runner in the chimney: it's always been done that way.

It's only HVS 5b anyway 😁, but seriously, I'm ok with it now being considered E1 - I think the ankle breaking is because you tend to "blind" place the friend into the mid-roof slot - and I believe it sometimes pops under load - never tested it myself so no idea whether my placement(s) - done more than once - were ok.

There's good gear in Green Gut that'll stop you decking (but not hitting the ledge) from the thinnest moves but not from the easier moves near the top. Whether you consider that side-runner ok, and how high you place it is of course a personal decision.

A lot is going to depend on the rock, routes and placements chosen. Responsible instructors, which I'm sure almost all of them are, will certainly be taking damage to the rock into consideration. I expect those courses involve a lot of other content that isn't actually taking falls onto placements and there are lots of placements out there which wouldn't be significantly damaged by a few moderately sized falls.

Tons of huge whippers onto cams in some of the softer grit would clearly be irresponsible. A few reasonable-sized falls onto good nut placements in solid limestone or volcanic rock isn't going to do any significant damage at all.

There's a balance to be struck here, as with most things complex enough to be at all interesting.