UKH

Found this on the Internet. Seemed quite interesting and I wondered what people thought.

https://www.climbing.com/people/does-climbing-need-gatekeeping-to-save-itse...

Seemed relevant having been reading threads on Stanage parking, bolts on the Old Man of Hoy and others.  

Thoughts?

In reply to gooberman-hill:

It’s the old argument. Club mentoring used to instil safety, etiquette and environmental awareness but climbing walls don’t and don’t see why they should. 

In reply to gooberman-hill:

I think looking top down on this is unhelpful. We function on a case by case basis and try and make things work, and we already have rules where access may be lost. As for Stanage, the vast majority of bad parking isn't climbers. The dangers of new outdoor  climbers swamping crags seen more like legend to me.... rarely linking to reality.

In reply to Offwidth:

 

Really?!?!

In reply to gooberman-hill:

Gatekeepering strikes me as one of those semi-pejorative labels which people apply to those who hold different views to them. That seems to be the way it's used on these forums at least. See also, whataboutery, snowflake, passive aggressive etc etc. 

In reply to kevin stephens:

Off width is wearing his rose tinted belay goggles, he is seeing all climbers as models of perfection. In reality, climbers are humans with a behavioural bell curve the same as any group.of people.

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

Some are at the end of the bell so to speak.

In reply to DaveHK:

Absolute gold.

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

Notable comment in another recent thread to the effect that 'us climbers think ourselves a cut above'.

Really? I don't. I try to do good, but I certainly don't think myself above anyone, and in my experience climbers are very much part of the carp parking issues in the Peak. 

In reply to gooberman-hill:

Seems a pretty balanced piece.  Like the author I’ve experienced both sides of the argument; both thoughtful guidance through a university club and what felt like presumptuous paternalism from a senior club (not UK, and resolved amicably).

In reply to midgen:

I think it's common for climbers to mirror the population as a whole - just crucian around looking for somewhere to park.

In reply to gooberman-hill:

It's an interesting article and I can definitely understand the thought behind it. Though I wouldn't call it gatekeeping in the traditional sense.

There's a difference between not inviting someone to join a climbing trip where you are going to be climbing at your limit/projecting/etc. When compared to not helping introduce someone to climbing outdoors and teaching them the safe fundamentals.

Having introduced a range of people to climbing outdoors I pick and choose when I do it. I still want to use the limited time I have to climb the routes in the places where it wouldn't be sensible to take someone inexperienced.

As for who I'd show. It would be anyone I get on with and I'd feel safe being belayed by and who's keen to learn.

I'd say this is more thoughtful introduction to the outdoors than gatekeeping.

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

In fairness to Offwidth, a lot of the vehicles at Stanage belong to walkers/amblers/ramblers, mountain bikers, paragliders, runners & just wild parkers (rarely move more than 50m from the carpark). Whilst climbers are certainly not models of perfection, they're also not responsible for the majority of bad parking. Even on a sunny weekend when Stanage seems rammed with climbers queuing for routes, they are outnumbered by the 'walking class'. The demand for parking at the Popular End & High Neb (or Hook's Scar & Dennis Knoll as the PDNPA & non-climbers know them) at weekends far outstrips supply, & the majority end up parking as considerately as possible, but still filling up the verges, laybys & even the passing spaces. A decent underground multistorey car park would not go amiss!!!

In reply to DaveHK:

yes, it's all linked with the belief in a patriarchy.  Looking back at Ivy's cafe and how it was run in Last of the Summer Wine I do wonder whether the patriarchy idea  ignores a lot of how women ran society among the working classes in them days

In reply to midgen:

Yeah, it’s a common problem for climbers - where to leave all the carp after a day out in Chee Dale. 

In reply to Dave Todd:

It’s fine as long as they don’t carp on about it on UKC. 

In reply to Misha:

Deliberate typo, force of habit from other forums that have over-zealous language filters!

In reply to gooberman-hill:

Perhaps well meant, gatekeeping is elitist and ultimately arrogant. Who are the gatekeepers to say who they allow and who they don't?

Given climbing's anarchic nature, when a youth I would've and even now... I present my "doigt d'honneur" to people who self appointed themselves as gatekeepers. 

In reply to CantClimbTom:

There is gatekeeping all over climbing, hidden behind ethics.

Don't climb in boots or trainers

Don't climb wet rock

Groups of topropers frowned upon.

There have even been rants about climbers daring to fall off.

All elitist guff, behind a flimsy veil. Those "concerned" about damage to the rock forget that they themselves have climbed these routes 10s or 100s of times and that they were polished decades ago, closing the stable door now won't help

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

Depending on the rock type that's all just sound advice. 

In reply to CantClimbTom:

I have sometimes felt like that, but I would say that in some places clubs and mountaineering organisations are responsible for maintaining access and providing training.  Bad behaviour and serious accidents can jeopardise access and the clubs held responsible.  This can lead to what seems to us a rather paternal and maybe elitist approach but this is cultural.  The Mountain Club of South Africa used be run a bit like this, maybe the Sierra Club in the US and some European clubs (the CAF, SAC etc) are pretty proactive in promoting, or even mandating good practice.

I think we’ve actually pretty lucky to have as little regulation here as we do.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Yeah, let's just turn a blind eye to shitty behaviour from adults who should know better than to block roads, piss in people's gardens, damage walls/fences etc and ignore access restrictions because gatekeeping is elitist. 

In reply to climbingpixie:h

Agree that those examples area worse than gatekeeping, those people need an ar5e kicking. But that's whataboutery, it doesn't mean gatekeeping is ok.

Gatekeeping, say... following progression through a club (for example) would have kept Alex Honnold locked out. Did you read Honnold's accounts of early outdoor climbing where he didn't know anyone and soloed. How about historical examples, some pioneers of climbing were outside the norms of the clubs at the time, for class reasons (or other issues), Menlove Edwards perhaps?  Many people for a constellation of reasons might not join clubs but still go climbing.

​​​​​​Arguing against gatekeeping is not arguing in favour of for bad behaviour.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Climbing stopped being anarchic over 40 years ago. It’s all about being kind, mental health and well being now.

In reply to Philb1950:

It’s all about being kind, mental health and well being now.

Oh no, that sounds awful.

In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:

Cheers. However those of us who are regularly there and see who is actually verge parking will never overcome such legend (the reality in my experience is a small minority on those on Popular End verge parking for Stanage are climbers, most are walkers).

The US article in my wide experience just doesn't apply to climbers in most of the UK venues. I'm guessing partly because of there being much less sport climbing here that are attractive for brand new indoor climbers,  unaware of parking ethics, and already used to bolt clipping. The worst areas I know for bad parking in the Peak do tend to be very popular sport venues.. but even then, more because parking is often much more limited than somewhere like Stanage. I often climb on Stanage at busiest times and in 30+ years have never needed to verge park and only on a few occasions needed to walk 5 minutes to a standard Stanage parking spot. Plantation was my usual parking place on a busy day and I miss a certain coffee van.

In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:

Cheers. However those of us who are regularly there and see who is actually verge parking will never overcome such legend (the reality in my experience is a small minority on those on Popular End verge parking for Stanage are climbers, most are walkers).

The US article in my wide experience just doesn't apply to climbers in most of the UK venues. I'm guessing partly because of there being much less sport climbing here that is attractive for brand new indoor climbers (unaware of parking ethics)... already used to bolt clipping. The worst areas I know for bad parking in the Peak do tend to be very popular sport venues.. but even then, more because parking is often much more limited than somewhere like Stanage. I often climb on Stanage at busiest times and in 30+ years have never needed to verge park and only on a few occasions needed to walk 5 minutes to a standard Stanage parking spot. If anything  parking pressure from walkers means the crag is quieter at peak times than it was pre covid.

Plantation was my usual parking place on a busy day and I miss a certain coffee van.

Some of our best trad climbing in the mountains is desperate for more traffic to keep it clean. Even in the Peak, really good grit venues rarely see large traffic outside of the weekends.

In reply to kevin stephens:

I climb there a lot at busy times and work closely with the Peak BMC volunteer access team, why are you thinking otherwise?

In reply to Philb1950:

Part of me (the immature part probably) thinks the idea of an 'anarchic scene' sounds cool and exciting. Another part of me (the grown up part probably) looks at accounts of that sort of thing and wonders why we get so enamoured with it when an awful lot of anarchic behaviour looks like plain bad behaviour in the cold light of day.

In reply to Philb1950:

I’d say the climbers I come across are more wet lettuce than sex pistol nowadays 

In reply to climbingpixie:

If you think new climbers coming from climbing walls do this and all the old timers are well behaved you're living in la la land.  

And, most climbers were never very anarchic, and some of those anarchists turn out not to looks so sharp in the light of day

In reply to Offwidth:

Probably because you haven't provided any evidence other than to say you are right.

My personal experience is alot of the verge parking at stanage is climbers who often turn up later, and fininish later than alot of walkers. If you walk past these cars you can often tell a climbers car by what's left in them even if the occupants aren't there (good adverts for car thieves). Also whilst belaying on the top you can watch people exiting vehicles with large bags with ropes and helmets or pad and you know they are probably going climbing, even if they are walkers the BMC is meant to represent these groups too so collectively it's our problem.

I myself have parked on the verge down the road from the cattle grid on a number of occasions when it is busy as it is completely off the road and doesn't seem to be a unreasonable thing to do. However I refuse to park opposite the bays which restricts the access down the road and makes getting out of the bays difficult. There was a thread on here once by a climber asking if anyone had witnessed thier car being clipped by someone coming out of a bay and many people had little sympathy if I remember correctly. 

Recently I couldn't park anywhere in Edale without parking like a dick so we had to drive out of the valley and go elsewhere. Others in our party took liberty and parked all day in a 2 hour bay. Unfortunately we know climbers  park like dicks as often this is a key flash point in access problems to peaks at venues which aren't of any interest to other groups. 

In reply to DaveHK:

Totally agree, but different times and different values. That’s not to say I don’t miss it.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

I know some climbers park there Graham, that's what I said. I also hinted some  climbers "park like dicks" in those sensitive limestone cases.

However I've sat in my car,  behind parked cars at Hook's Carr, quite a few times watching the verge parking line grow (as I was due to meet someone there... or heading for somewhere around Apparent North, knowing people coming down from the edge were likely to free a space soonish). In my experience a big majority were walkers.

It's almost cetainly an issue of education for many but a large number of climbers and walkers know the issues and clearly don't care.

A section beyond and not blocking the cattle grid is off the road with no indication of restrictions and is not blocking a passing space: it is simply not verge parking. It's exactly the sort of place I have used: (but could be lost if it all becomes a freeway).

In reply to Philb1950:

I'm too young to have been part of that but I grew up as a climber reading Jim Perrin's writing and he obviously was in just such a scene.

That era has been on my mind lately as I recently re-read 'Street Illegal'. It's an utterly compelling piece of writing and oddly refreshing in comparison with today's climbing writing.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

......typical.... I forgot to reinforce my main point relating to the OP,  which I think is being missed...

Popular End parking really doesn't indicate Popular End climbs are being trashed but it does indicate that particular parking is attracting a lot more walkers, especially so post-covid, and the verge parking will force change soon.

My big concern at Stanage is the incredibly popular boulders, which do need better care. Their damage to an extent will relate to indoor visitors but again it is also due to plenty of those who should know better. Everyone should be ensuring the rock is dry and shoes are always clean (especially on lower grade problems that get most traffic) and taking care with brushing (soft brushes, used only when really necessary) and good mat use to cut ground erosion.

These sorts of threads unfairly blame climbers new to the outdoors, some of whom at least have a pretty good excuse of ignorance.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Just to add some more anecdotal evidence to it not always being climbers, one August evening I went to Masson Lees, to find some horrific parking, people parked everywhere you're not supposed to according to the access notes. When I got to the crag, me and my partner were the only party there. When we left there were still three cars remaining parked. I'm sure any pissed off locals* would have blamed climbers as always.

* bearing in mind the fact that my climbing partner lives at the bottom of the hill, so is local.

In reply to gooberman-hill:

I think that there's a few complex things going on here

1) Number of people climbing in all ways has gone up a lot. This is a fact.

2) Are ethics generally worse now? I don't believe they really are, but clearly there are some bad actors 

3) People getting upset about the "spirit" of climbing being lost.

Honestly for me the 3rd is often very hypocritical. People admire the anarchistic spirit of the past, but forget that they did a lot of chipping and dodgy stuff too. They didn't do as much damage cos there weren't as many of them; if there had been Stanage Plantation would look much worse

You often here "I went to Stanage and it was rammed" well of course, and you're there too and have been many times. Nobody has intrinsically more right. Nobody shouldn't be allowed. We need to teach ethics. But if we don't there's no alternative of people not going. They're going to go

The horse has long gone. It's growing. And the solution is not going to be gatekeeping. Gatekeeping will just create tension that damages the community and makes people less willing to learn.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

The DAV in Germany have got it sussed - they own a significant percentage of walls there, and the walls they own are often the best in their area, thus they have a captive market in terms of 'marketing' good practise.

In reply to Andrew Wells:

My first point is the overall numbers of climbers on a good day doesn’t seem to have changed in the last couple of decades. Also that the climbs are still 'holding up well' to traffic, with a few exceptions mainly due to cam damage. We simply don't have an issue of masses of indoor climbers moving outdoors and overcrowding Stanage and damaging the routes. The parking impact is in my view mainly due to many more hillwalkers in recent years.

In reply to DaveHK:

This indeed.

It amuses me how fascistic some of the discussions here can get over mild rule or guidance infringements, from a community which in a different conversation will champion the behaviours of Whillans, Haston, Moon, Burgess et al.

No hypocrisy here though, we are climbers, we are special.

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

I haven't seen anyone on here championing poor behaviour by those individuals. There's a fasciniation with them for sure but whenever I see those kind of characters being discussed people are pretty quick to condemn the undesirable stuff.

Edit: How does Moon fit into that quartet? I'm aware of the failings (for want of a better word) of the others but not of anything similar about Ben Moon.

In reply to DaveHK:

There is an hour long movie about his thieving. Have a look at the speed camera thread, some of those guys would have him hung drawn and quartered.

Not in the same league as the others but if we are going to get all judge dredd about it...

In reply to gooberman-hill:

"Gatekeeping" is not usually used to refer to a consciously designed structure of barriers or exclusivity, but rather to the way that corporate endeavour, coordinated activites, and the structures they give rise to tend to create barriers and imbalances of power.

Often, in the process of enabling people to learn and educating them about good conduct, gatekeeping can also creep in. That's why it is important to have an awareness of bias and of the need to be inclusive throughout our structures, as well as accountable and democratic. This might mean, e.g., encouraging women outdoor professionals; trying to avoid all positions in a club or a representative organisation being held by aging men; avoiding one person taking on too much responsibility, etc.

However, there is not an inherent contradiction between cooperation, education and looking after people and avoiding gatekeepers - merely a tension to be negotiated.

I don't think the article is really about gatekeeping. I think it is about the disdain and rising panic many longstanding climbers and outdoorsy people feel when they see lots of newcomers, and the desire to exclude those people. The frame story is just an obfuscation that allows the writer to express their disdain before dropping a vague and tangentially connected moral that allows them to escape with their reputation as a "nice guy" intact.

The fact is, as much as many people feel the fear of rapidly increasing numbers, the desire to exclude people is not a sentiment to be encouraged and, anyway, it is not possible to hold back the incoming tide. Instead, we should think about how to build strong, democratic and accountable organisations capable of responding to the needs of this growing body of people, and coordinating and educating them. Unfortunately, it doesn't always seem that the BMC is really equal to the challenge.

In reply to C Witter: Doesn't the BMC have the unenviable position of sitting in the middle - it needs to take newcomers and 'steer' them to the ethical highgrounds , yet if it looks too encouraging to beginners a noisy group of current climbers start complaining everything is too busy and the BMC should pack said activities in

In reply to C Witter:

Agreed.

Really? The subject is certainly treated with serious concern in the BMC and its funding partners. Where there is failure I'd ask how much of that is down to the limited impact of small organisations like the BMC and it's partners and how much it's down to the generally pretty privileged community of around three and a half million climbers, mountaineers and hillwalkers.

In reply to wbo2:

The BMC can't hold back the tide of participation growth, even if it wanted to, so I regard such complaints around active encouragement of responsible participation as plain wrong. What it can do is lobby, build constructive partnerships and educate.

In reply to Offwidth:

Well, you probably understand the BMC's work in more detail than me. I'm just thinking of general issues, e.g. struggles to recruit members; the perception that it is not particularly relevant, particularly to predominantly indoor climbers; heavy-handed messaging during covid; blaming "selfish beanie wearers" when Wright's Rocks was closed; serious governance issues. Despite those things, I know some good wor is being done, certainly there are some good people involved, and I'm a member. But, it's important to acknowledge and learn from these problems. IMO, too often debates on UKC about the BMC polarise into "down with the BMC" on one side and "how dare your criticise them?" on the other... But, perhaps that's just the nature of forum debate.

In reply to wbo2:

Hm... I'm not sure about that. But, I do think it has the unenviable position of trying to address the needs of both Gen Z and older men whose worldviews would be more at home in the 1890s.

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

A very well kent Greater Ranges climber used to nick chips off me in Ma Shepherd's.  Should I get Fascistic? Or fire up my fatbike?

In reply to gooberman-hill:

Parking problems at Stanage (and elsewhere in the Peak) would probably be best solved by a frequent, reliable and cheap park and ride minibus service, rather than somehow checking the credentials of whoever wanted to park there. Fear tends to be the best gatekeeper and there aren't many who leap from indoor climbing to outdoor trad without some sort of introduction or guidance from someone more experienced. The clubs have sadly dwindled over the years, seemingly replaced now by whatsapp groups and a mixed bag of experience, but I still think the barrier to entry being implicit in the dangerous nature of the sport means it regulates itself to the necessary degree.

In reply to C Witter:

The BMC has indeed had a fair few serious problems in recent years but that doesn’t mean exaggeration of their size and unfair blame isn't also rife alongside those.

Both are foolish positions...

... sadly for some here, but not all. Imagine how bad it could be without moderation (just look at some newspaper comment pages).

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

"climbers are humans with a behavioural bell curve the same as any group.of people."

So might the extremes of the bell curve be described as bell-ends?

In reply to Dave Cundy:

You're a bit behind the curve with that. 

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

I don't think that's a real policeman at the start of Statement of Youth...

In reply to DaveHK:

I don't think.its a real Bent Spoon either.

The issues mentioned in the article have more relevance to Horseshoe than Stanage.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

I was parked in one of the bays last year, started reversing out as I was leaving, stopped to let some cyclists pass, by which point a small car which was parked half in the ditch opposite was completely in my van's blind spot, and when I resumed my maneuvre, I dinged their door in.

My fault and I left a note and footed the (four-figure!) bill to fix it. But it would have been better for all concerned if people didn't park in such stupid places. I'm hoping the PDNP start ticketing the verge parkers now the machines are in.