UKH

I'm new to trad climbing and was wondering whether it is feasible to climb in the peak district without cams, 

There is a thread from 10 years or so ago but I thought id ask for some updated opinions

Yes. I did it for years. Learn how to place hexs properly is horizontal breaks.

Now I have cams, I don't leave the ground without them......

It's certainly possible. I'm not sure I'd recommend venturing up natural grit routes that didn't have obvious vertical cracks for gear without some, especially as a new leader.

You could get a decent amount of mileage in at quarried places like Millstone and Lawrencefield with just a set of nuts though.

If you're pressed for cash, a set of Abalaks would give a cheap  option for protecting horizontal breaks.

I'd pick up a couple second hand on here if I was you, they come up pretty regularaly, get two mid size ones to start, that only just overlap in placement size. Perhaps a camalot green and yellow. Just make sure to save them for essential placements only.

None existed before the mid 70s, so the answer is eminently: yes! You should find loads to do which can be adequately protected with wires, hexes and occasionally a sling arranged over a suitable rock spike or around a chockstone.

Yes, you can definitely manage without cams. I had none when I started. Learning to place wires and hexes well and to spot threads and spikes for slings is a key skill, so I wouldn’t worry about not having cams.

Do be mindful though that cams will make some routes safer or easier to protect, especially on grit, so choose your routes carefully.

As it happens, I have some for sale. I’ll post up later. 

Yes - but not as much fun as with cams.

Until you get some it would be worth looking at the FA date for things you want to climb and sticking to very 'traditional' looking lines.  A tour of 1940s and 50s chimneys should be fine while you are waiting for some cheap cams to come on sale.

For example Hargreaves' Original (VS 4c) is protectable without cams, but you need to know what you're doing with horizontally cammed hexes (or maybe tricams) and you'll place less pieces of gear (so it'll be more run-out) than if you had the appropriate size cams as well.

On grit, if you have cams, then the occasions that you don't bother putting at least some of them on your rack are extremely rare, and even then you might just add them for the belay at the top.

So, as others have said, yes you can climb on grit without cams, but none of us do anymore.

On limestone, cams are less useful (there aren't so many cam placements and they don't hold in quite so many situations as on grit) so in some ways it is less of a hindrance to be without, but I bet you still won't see many leading trad on limestone without some cams.

You're correct to suggest looking at 'traditional' looking lines because going by the date of first ascent alone would lead you into some interestingly bold situations without cams 😁

https://www.sgurr.shop/products/kouba-abalak-passive-cams

I did this as a new leader, without cams and when not used to the slopeyness of gritstome climbing.  Not recommended. Get some cams you wont regret it, and if you can't yet, stick to crack climbs that look like they'll take nuts and hexes.  

perfectly possilbe - I did for nearly 30 years and still rarely place cam.

Nothing better than a well placed hex - 

https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/hexes/

Some useful advice on placing hexes here.

Indeed. It's worth remembering that most, possibly all, of the Allen/Bancroft/Regan era classics - ie Old Friends, Nectar, Profit, Harvest, Reticent, Moon Walk, Goosey, Calvary, etc - were done before the introduction of cams; Friends arrived on the market in February 1978. Some, of course, would today probably merit a higher grade if cams didn't now exist; at the time they also preceded E-grades so were simply graded XS - apart, possibly, from the odd rogue 'HVS'!

Is it possible? Yes. 

Is it going to be as fun and as safe as if you use a full modern rack? No.

I have a pet hate about climbers who bang on about the gear they first climbed a route with. It's safer and easier with modern kit so why encourage new climbers to only use the same 6 wires someone first lead a route with way back when. Yes it's impressive, but time change! 

I certainly wasn't recommending it without cams. If I get back into leading trad, I might try it without cams just to see how feasible and well or poorly protected it is (in the past I've done it pre-cams, with cams and solo - not necessarily in that order). Then again I might also just chicken out and have the cams on my rack in case I get scared (high probability 😁).

Without the context of knowing the route, this could sound like you're recommending Hargreaves Original as a good route to pick when you don't have cams, rather than quite the opposite! Not that anything you said was wrong, it just makes most sense when you already know the route, which OP presumably wouldn't.

No idea what grade you're leading or whether you're asking for a one-off trip or a permanent solution. I would definitely recommend making friends with climbing partners with cams (if reliable, even cheaper than buying secondhand ones - and obviously, do be stringent about the reliability on any gear not direct from the shop!) and avoid routes solely composed of the kind of slopey horizontal breaks that won't take anything else (I often think certain crags, eg some parts of the Roaches, are bad for this, but others may well disagree).

Worth also thinking about anchors; as well as slings, I most often build my anchors of hexes, having used my cams on the route; I've you're using up your hexes on the route, just check you have something left! 

As others have said, yes, but...

Arranging protection in horizontal breaks is particularly tricky without cams, it is possible, but takes practice, so it is best to avoid routes on grit which climb from one horizontal break to the next. On the other hand, placing protection in cracks which run more or less up and down is generally much easier, so these are the sort of routes you should look for. 

Back in the day before people routinely carried big cams, I saw several leaders on Hargreaves place hexes in extremis. It was horrifying and I doubt whether any would have held (from poor/stressed out placements, not because you couldn't protect it with hexes). 

So I would echo Max Factor's reservations. Without the 'get out of jail' option of cams, Hargreaves can be a real head trip. 

There are lots and lots of gritstone cracks which are eminently protectable without cams. Cams are 'plug and play' - that's their strength. But learning without them - as once, everyone needed to do? My guess is that the OP will develop far greater prowess in placing protection. 

Mick 

Having reread my first post I can see that I've (as you implied) assumed some knowledge of the route, and without that my first post could be miss-interpreted as a recommendation for a camless lead.

To avoid all doubt, Hargreaves' Original (VS 4c) should not be led without cams unless you are climbing well within your grade and are familiar with slopey gritstone break-to-break climbing, or you are looking for a particularly memorable (i.e. scary) experience.

Don't forget that up to a certain height you can always escape up Macleod's Variation (VS 4c) which is slightly easier and feels more secure after it diverges from the parent route (even if it does get the same grade).

Absolutely. I've climbed stuff without cams, hexes, rocks or even rope.

Though cams and other bits of gear will make those sudden descents a lot less terrifying. As a friend of mine could testify when on doing Flying Buttress direct all his carefully placed hexes lifted out when he pulled on the lip

To use Hargreaves’s Original route as an example - 

it’s the VS equivalent of Indian Face - technically easy climbing but with poor protection and probably dire consequences if you fall off from high up. Yes you should be able to physically climb it but can you overcome the mental side?

Unless you use cams - then it’s just another safe VS on Stanage.

Maybe it’s a prime example of a route that, given modern protection (cams) should be regraded downward?

The old Paul Nunn guide only showed Macleod's Variation (VS 4c) and gave it S 4a, and IIRC the 70's green Stanage guide gave it S(+) and the original route VS(-).

You're right about the pro, with cams you'd be relatively happy to come off, without cams you might be ok but there's no way you'd be happy to find out.

Back in the (late) 70's Tony from Alpine Sports in Brighton (can't remember his surname) was soloing this and came off at one of the horizontal breaks but somehow stopped at the next one down!!! He then proceeded to reverse the route below all the way down to the Scotsman's Pack for a recovery drink or two.

Also, this was I believe one of the routes that Alf Bridge used to show his technique of controlled falling in the 1920s where from some scary height he basically bounced/jumped from "ledge" to "ledge" until happily landing on the ground - I presume there was still grass underneath in those days but even so, this must have been a sight to behold. There don't appear to have ever been any claims from people emulating this feat. I guess the dynamics would be similar to the "style" often displayed by Jonny Dawes (and in some of the modern bouldering comps) but in the opposite direction.

Totally! 

Plenty of us started climbing in the peak as flat broke students, pick your routes and run with the gear you have!

It's a lost art, directional runners and clipping an unused large hex to a runner so it doesn't lift out. Etc.

Learning without cams is a great way to learn good rapid hex or wire placing. The means to select the right size, first time every time, once you get your eye in. 

You're also (if you don't yet have cams) much more likely to develop the skills to do things like "wires in opposition" or stacking of wires/nuts/hexes.

Although skills like this aren't often used if you have a good range of cams, sometimes they're the thing that gets you out of tricky situations.

I hear what you say but all the routes you list can be well protected by nuts. The friend in Old Friends flake is useless, hence ground falls.

I agree and placing opposed runners so they hold each other in. I couldn't afford cams when I started out so I had to get creative with my gear placements and use of extenders to stop things lifting

They aren't always just plug and play, but lots of climbers treat them in that way. I've climbed with a few people over the years that are far too reliant on and trusting of cams and I've seen a few come to grief because of it.

As many have said, it's certainly possible to climb grit routes solo, sans corde, in your birthday suit... that doesn't mean it's advisable. Most of the time I climb on a grit route, I don't place more that one nut: everything else is a cam. Some routes, I only place cams; no route is only nuts.
 

If you're on a limited budget, start with 0.5, 0.75 and 1 (purple, green, red) plus the big yellow and blue hexes. You'll not regret it. ...Whereas trusting old cranky men on forums will be something you regret when your only piece in 8m of balancy climbing is a rattly hex in a flared break.

Even just using horizontal cracks for first runner to avoid unzipping, extending certain ones, if on double ropes thinking how they'll pull towards the centre line if you fall. Cams can promote lazy gear placing, giving the impression there's little to consider, until one rips out, unclips or walks all the way in. 

I nearly always carry 3 smaller sized hexes on rope, lighter than 1 cam, masses more versatility. The rope acts partially as an extender so they never need long extenders, there is no down side. Ever heard the phrase "all the gear no idea"?

Has there been enough useful replies on this thread yet for me to be a dick about Peak/Peaks?

It hope so... PEAK!!!!! etc, etc,

Ps, to the OP, I climb a lot on grit and I would broadly agree with C Witters post.

Totally agree. That's what I should have said. Thanks for putting it better. 

I suspect many people regard them as akin to portable bolts. 

Mick 

Funnily enough, I nearly put that in my previous post. I've climbed trad with a few people who've come from a sport background and that's exactly how they treat cams, fire it in, clip and go. There's a time and a place for that but there are other times when a bit more care is required and blind trust is rarely a good approach to pro.

Edit: the above sounds ridiculously obvious but it's worth restating from time to time, especially for beginners!

I climbed on grit for at least 10 years without cams. For a long time after cams were invented I always tried to place hexes, and later, the superb hexentrics, because cams damage the rock. Was often successful. Used cams as last resort.

Yes I have. Are you applying it to yourself? Are you even talking leads on grit? Also, are you an old crank?

A hex is not more versatile than a cam if you are wedging it anywhere other than into a UKC debate... If you don't believe me, then go ask a climber who is not on UKC.

To be an absolute pedant, they said that 3 hexes were more versatile than one cam and weighs less. I wouldn't argue the point but I can see where ExiledScot is coming from.

Wise words. 

Old, define old, but that means I've more experience climbing grit. How many led, how many hot meals have you had? I've no idea, I've not counted up how many routes i had since the mid 90s when registering on schemes and then it was in thousands 

Hex on rope can thread, extend another runner, over a spike etc.. a cam can only cam. 

I'm not saying cams aren't useful, but there are 1000s of grit routes to climb without them. 

Is this really relevant on 10m gritstone routes as opposed to 45m pitches elsewhere? 

It becomes relevant if you forget all your draws!

Don't need draws if you've got cams... 😉

Of course you can climb 1000s of grit routes without cams... you can climb thousands of grit routes with only one arm, but I doubt that is sufficient justification to cut the other off.

It's true that a cam cannot be used to lasso a stake and effect a Tyrolean traverse, but it is extremely versatile when it comes to the shape and size of a placement - specifically, when compared to a hex.

But, if you really feel that strongly about hexes on rope, please do write to Caff, Twyford, McLeod, Findlay, Whittaker and Babsi Zangerl to encourage them to start taking full advantage of the roped hex and/or MOAC... Perhaps that's what they've been missing all this time and armed with this we'll soon see E12...

Glad you did that, I've been bravely fighting the urge to #PeaknotPeaks myself.

To the OP: I'm not sure if anyone else has pointed out, but climbing in Peak isn't just grit. Whilst cams are very useful on gritstone, on limestone they are a lot less necessary. I've been climbing a bit of trad limestone in recent weeks and it yet again reminds me that hexes still very much have a role there. Indeed on a 30 mtr HS I climbed last weekend I think I only placed a couple of cams (one of which walked in the crack to widening and opened up! So a small hex or big nut would have been better.). On gritstone I'll often take a double set of cams, or at least rely on borrowing my mates if we are both lugging a rack up to the crag.

For sake of a pointless argument, I'd offer UK winter climbing as a counter point. 

What a nonsense argument.

You’re trying to place someone new to leading in the same pot as some of the best climbers in the world. Equally, you’re placing a grit VDiff in the same pot as some bold, probably largely gearless (otherwise it’d have been done already) besides some incredibly specialist stuff that barely any of us carry on a day to day basis. 

Hexes and cams all have their places. Besides which, a bomber hex in a crack is never going to walk. Though even a bomber cam can. Also a cam in a horizontal break butted up against the back wall of it is probably always preferable to a cammed hex. If you can, always use the best gear for the job. If you can’t afford the best, than use what you’ve got it. It’s quite simple, really?

Nothing's changed in 10 years.

Limestone: Yes.

Natural gritstone: You can but it's not great. You'll either find yourself carefully cherry-picking routes, backing off a lot or taking silly risks.

Quarried grit: Pretty much, with care.

jk

It's not a nonsense argument. Whether you're new or elite, you're not going to want to climb grit in general without cams.

Unless you're from Yorkshire.

Absolutely. It has to be remembered that pretty much all of the lower grade routes on grit were essentially a solo by the leader, just dragging a rope up for the second. There's a few that still are essentially a solo if you don't have cams, and some even if you do. 

What about sandstone or granite? 

Let's all wind back a bit. The Op asked can you climb in the Peak without cams. To which the answer is emphatically yes. Whether one prefers cams or hexes or  a combination of both is irrelevant that's down to personal choice.

I trust anyone new to trad climbing to base their choice of climb on trust in their own ability, as we all did when we started out

I mean, I don't disagree with you. Yes, of course. I also started without cams. But, if it was my friend (never mind loved one!) who was learning to lead, I would definitely lend them some cams, rather than simply trusting a novice to make use of odd gear tricks and/or their native ability to get up the crag safely!

I agree I would lend them some cams. I would also suggest choosing a route well within their capabilities. However if I had someone starting to lead (trad) I would like to teach them the whole range of gear placement and the limitations of said gear. Cams are easy to place but they are not a fail safe. I suppose I am assuming if the op said can you climb grit without cams I am assuming that they don't have any.

Ironically I am nursing an injury at the moment having taken a ground fall on an easy route. I placed a size 1 cam but came off just above it (greasy rock) and it took us both by surprise. The cam held but the rope stretch didn't.

It's a very personal decision. No one can tell you how brave (or dumb) you are, so there isn't a straight yes or no answer to it. 

Can you? Yes

Will you enjoy it? Possibly

Will you enjoy it as much? No or Possibly Yes

Will it be safe? Yes, Possibly No, depends on the route

Will it be less safe? Almost certainly overall 

All I can do is say that for me, I climb about HVS. If you took my cams away, I doubt I'd get on something harder than HS. I'm not very brave. I know how to place wires but I like to have every option available and I'm not always happy above poor gear or running it out. Grit has a lot of parallel cracks and breaks where other gear is less than ideal. If I'd never had cams from day 1, I'd probably not have progressed above Severe. Yes, you can probably fiddle a sub-optimal hex into a parallel horizontal break and it might even hold. Would I push myself above it? No chance. 

Limestone is slightly different and is often very well protected with wires and other more rudimental gear. I'd still rather have some cams on me as well though, and I'd drop a grade or two without them.

Yes people back in the day climbed without cams but they were braver than me. Maybe not having them would have built more resilience into me and I'd have been a bit bolder (or a bit dead-er?), who knows.  

If you wanted to climb VSs and HVSs in the 1960s you had to be a bit braver than now. With only limited nuts available you had no choice. My brother and I just had 5 hexagons on perlon, 2 moacs, and a lot of knotted tape slings when we started leading harder routes in 1968. You had to 'ration' the nuts to some extent. One technique we had was to 're-use' them on a pitch. I can remember doing this particularly on Ivy Sepuchre: putting a nut in above my head, climbing right up past it to a reasonable resting/bridging position, then reaching down, taking out the nut and placing it again above my head. So the whole pitch was only done on about ½ dozen nuts at most, and perhaps one or two dodgy slings resting on spikes.

I'd say it partly depends on how good you are. Modern equipment and protection has opened up  climbing to punters like me, who wouldn't have had a look in back in the day. 

I took a lot of lead falls on grit 5a routes, VS or HVS, and trying to push into HVS would have been unthinkable without cams.

Likewise, the top guys wouldn't be climbing what they climb without the gear available now. However you look at it, you'll have to be more circumspect without cams.

A friend of mine did that on Left Wall (I can't remember the exact circumstances - he can't have taken much gear for some reason) - and fell off just after he'd managed to take out the nut. Oh dear.

In which case, whoever does that probably doesn’t have the practical skills to go climbing safely. 
 

To the OP: just buy a few cams, they are worth the cash, ignore the “in my day” codgers, they are just spaffing whilst in death’s waiting room

Usual partisan hex bashing , cams are king .

I use both cams and hexes as appropriate.

Not mentioned yet , but guidebooks grade routes assuming a normal rack is carried, expect some routes to be tough without cams.

Moving on from cams , I now try to repeat  favourite grit routes without jamming , now that is nails!

If he has the funds then of course buy a couple mid sized first. If not, then it isn't a reason to not go climbing. 

I love my Tricams .

I climb a lot in the Peak District.

Lately I have been leading with just Tricams, nuts & a couple of hexs.

Only stuff around 4a, but I'm enjoying it.

So, yes, it is possible to climb in the Peak District without cams.

Cams are great, easier to place compared to Tricams, but very expensive.

Tricams are cheaper and lighter, but have a longer learning curve compared to cams.

None of my climbing mates like Tricams.

I think that I am in a very small minority of Tricam lovers.

Tricams are excellent in some of the limestone 'pockets' you meet in the Peak. I've certainly used them at Beeston Tor.

I got a couple when I used to knock around on Eden and Northumberland sandstone. They could reduce seconds to screaming imbeciles if you weren't careful.

We're all in death's waiting room. Some of us are just further down the queue

I'm a recent convert. I bought a set of Kouba Abalaks for winter climbing where they make a lot of sense but I've started sometimes carrying the smaller sizes in summer. I don't use them loads but they work where absolutely nothing else will and it's not just pockets, they go in flarey pods and undercut flakes where a cam wouldn't stand a chance. Some people say they're a pain to get out but a quick tug with the nut key under the point does the trick.

It was perfectly possible to climb happily without cams before they were invented.

It's still perfectly possible to climb without cams, but maybe not quite so happily now you know they exist but you haven't got any.

I believe this is an example of FOMO, or possibly FOFO?

I'm a bit surprised how little hexentrics get mentioned. They were very light and worked well in an amazing number of unlikely places. They seemed to be very easy to remove too. Of course cams are excellent in certain circumstances, but I'm old fashioned enough to think that they've degraded climbing to some extent, particularly when they're overused - e.g. at Stanage Popular end by relative beginners, with cams placed about every two feet - or less!

I think that's why some people end up using 10, 12 extenders on a pitch, they're lacing it, stacking cams up cracks, reaching high to place it's like a top rope all the way up a route. I've seen people start up Christmas crack with a dozen cams, the weight alone must be disadvantaging them, which is fine we all learn when starting out, but they delaying their learning and climbing with a really heavy harness is no fun. 

That’s a boring and arbitrary cut off point based entirely on your personal circumstances. Why not decry nuts, all of them? After all with nuts you miss out the fascinating skill of picking suitable pebbles and of threading them one handed whilst on a route. Also think how nuts have helped open up climbing by their overuse! Beginners can literally lace up cracks with them. Relying on a couple of pebbles per pitch kept the punters away and ensured the crags were nice and quiet. 
 

To be honest, if you’re not cycling to the crag on a penny farthing then you are the problem with modern climbing. 
 

Pity the poor sod who asked a perfectly reasonable question about climbing with a limited rack and instead got a Saga Holiday tour of the early 1970s.

Treating them as plug and play, ignoring directionality of loading, has resulted in a young friend of mine ending up with metalware in his spine on a route that is normally safe as houses. People need to consider what would mechanically happen in the event of a fall, and inexperienced trad leaders don’t always do. 

Have you read the thread? They've been mentioned over and over again!

I wasn't talking about standard hexes, I was talking about hexentrics. Which first came out in the 90s, I think, years after the original hexes.

Ah ... I've realised now that in a senior moment I using the term hexentric to refer to rockcentrics. Those were the nuts I was wishing to extol earlier. Sorry. 

The vast majority of people referring to hexes refer to Hexentrics, Rockcentrics, and Torque Nuts these days, seeing original hexes is increasingly rare.

Indeed. Interestingly hexes were the original nuts, evolving from the ordinary hexagonal industrial nuts that climbers first used (drilling out the thread first before attaching a nylon sling) - hence the term ‘nut’. I.e. they were simply elongated alloy versions of ordinary steel nuts, with two holes for attaching a thin sling. MOACs may even have been invented around the same time (early to mid 60s?)

PS. The use of industrial nuts was the next step forward from threading pebbles (as Joe Brown did in his early days of climbing, keeping his pebbles ranked in size in the rim of his woolly hat).

 He was only expressing an opinion about hexes. To my mind cams are overused on easy grit and cause damage. When they first appeared there was discussion as to whether they were cheating, as they are a moveable overhead runner. More interesting to me was when walking along Stanage today the crag was full of AMI,s and top ropes on easy routes. No E grades to be seen whilst I was there. When your Saga louts we’re doing it in the 70,s and 80,s, the crag would have been full of people leading up to E5 and nobody paying to be shown how to climb. On hard routes, 2 sets of RP,s and 1-7 rocks with one set of larger rocks. No cams, other than in my case for Tippler direct. They’re generally not needed, but I’m sure somebody will know where cams are essential 

Yeah, moacs, John Brailsford made the first ones in 1961. He was a talented guy in all respects. 

Think you must have seen me on Right Eliminate

actually he asked can you lead grit without cams, the answer is obviously yes. Then it was the "youngsters" who came and claimed they are essential, it's dangerous without them etc.. despite the last 60 plus years of protected lead climbing proving otherwise. 

But perhaps my memory is not so good. Luckily cameras had been invented back then and we have tons of climbing pictures from the era. So I checked the evidence. In Peak Rock there we can easily see Dawes using cams on Offspring and Kaluza Klein. In Extreme Rock (1987) we can also see plenty of climbers carrying or using cams. Or how about Rock Climbing in Britain (1984) - there is a youthful Nick Dixon, a notably good climber, on Magic In The Air, a notable E5, clearly with a cam as his essential protection.

Sure, their racks are much skimpier than today’s and no one has a lot of cams, but they do appear to be in use. 

I don’t think anyone has said this. Some routes  are clearly more dangerous without cams, but no one is suggesting all routes are more dangerous on wires/hexes only. But they do make lots of climbs easier to protect, safer and more fun - like so much modern technology. Climbers have always taken advantage of the latest technology and it seems churlish and hypocritical to suggest doing otherwise, unless of course you guys were eschewing proper nuts for pebbles and choosing plimsolls over dedicated climbing shoes back in the 1970s. In which case, do carry on!

Edit: I see you and I are the same age, so racks have looked basically the same for the entire time we’ve both been climbing…

Mid to Late 80s, my rack first consisted of very limited wires and hexes, it certainly wasn't full, I put gear in when i had something that fitted. Maybe somewhere around 92/93 a few rigid friends were creeping in, mid 90s full set of friends. By then I'd climbed every where from Skye to Cornwall, including on grit. It's just the way it was. I was schooled olde school, never had stickies/EBs until 93, does wonders for your foot work and edging.

Umm 70's I think .  My hexentrics are mostly Camp copies of the Chouinard originals and as only mid 80's vintage, nowhere near the oldest

It’s the way it was for you, but I had rigid stem friends from maybe 1989 or 1990 and certainly had flexible stem cams shortly afterwards. So did all my climbing partners - putting everything together gave us easily enough gear for most things we wanted to do. I was not at all well off and could afford enough gear to keep myself safe. Wires were just not that expensive!

What on earth were you wearing? There were decent shoes available back then and buying them was not outrageous. I really don’t buy the “crap shoes give you good footwork” argument, I suspect people climbed well despite the limitations (because they were good) rather than because of them. But I dislike the fetishisation of crap stuff in general and abhor its prevalence in certain parts of British society.

Careful Sean - you are channelling your inner Offwidth. 'What were you wearing?' would have done.

(I had exactly the same question, btw. 'Fires' were readily available by 1984 or so; were obviously a huge step forward from EBs; and were very affordable.)

Lol duly noted! Mr Scot seems to be straying into 4YM territory and someone should pull him back pronto. 

just standard fairly rigid mountain boots, even after i owned 'climbing shoes', they were perfectly capable of getting you up 4c/5a, rain, early morning damp, dry, bit slush, or snow you can just push on. Best boots ever were scarpa el cap, but really they were just stickies disguised as an ankle boot, great for places like skye though. 

Cost, but if you're buying clothes, bags, winter rack, lights, ropes etc and doing other sports like mtb, kayaking and caving then some costs need to be rationed. Plus i was away doing something outdoors nearly every free day or evening, probably on rock 4 days a week. 

I’m not at all sure that Friends were available in London until the early 1980s. I was always keen to try the very latest gear as soon as it came out (after years of poverty I was quite well off for the firs time, having started work in the film industry, so cost of equipment was not a big issue.) I am fairly certain that I didn’t buy/use a Friend until May 1983, because I mention it in my logbook as something of a novelty: ‘Use my new 2½ Friend for first time’. I think in the summer of 83 my climbing partner and I bought a few more, making sure we bought different sizes, so that between us we ended up with a complete rack of 6 or more.

I'll bite, first were dolomites, then Zamberlan mountain somethings maybe lite, followed by several pairs of meindle mountain cracks... they'd usually only last around a year as I did all the walking, scrambling, alpine and winter miles in them. 

I do distinctly recall several comments once on Ardus around easter 92, relating to my choice of footwear, but I didn't mind, we'd caught them up on the last pitch so we duly waited in the corner stance, my feet were nice and warm either way! 

Does an extra 600g really cause that many problems getting up a 4a? If someone was trying to hit optimum sport weight for climbing, that would be an issue. For someone noodling up a severe, that's just bonus training weight.

Tim

And that all sounds par for the course, very similar to my experience a bit later. So for the last 40 years many/most climbers have had a reasonable selection of cams at their disposal. I guess that means about 95% of people currently doing the sport have been in this situation. Perhaps we could gracefully retire the “in my day” jeremiads…

No. But it reminds me of a photo from Doug Scott's 'Big Wall Climbing' book, picturing a climber tooled-up to the nines for a 20 foot gritstone route. (If I could post the picture, I would; perhaps someone else can.)

I'm not deliberately being fogeyish, I hope; the objective is to use the available - and necessary - tools for the job. But, to employ a cliche, 'less is more.'

If only it was just 600g, we've all seen people massively overladen with cams for house brick sized cracks, setting off up routes with finger jam width features, and enough extenders to rig el cap. Each to their own, but they are limiting their own enjoyment with that weight and difficulty in locating what they really need on their harnesses. 

I started climbing on Peak limestone initially around ‘81 with just wires, but as soon as I started seriously on grit, I started accumulating a few cams, so me and my mates had a decent shared rack between us. I’ve still got some of them 40 odd years later (pictured), and they have seen a lot of action. I think the watershed was Geoff Birtles in the pub discussing which size ball nut (remember them?) protected the top of Moyers Buttress 😂

edit…I remember Jerry Moffatt getting an early pair of Fires and putting up Sole Power (f7C) on Froggatt in 1983

I seem to recall that, when friends first came out, they were sold in sets of 3 at £21 per set.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/the_story_of_the_first_wild_co... indeed says £7 per friend.

Adjusted for inflation, what would that equate to today?

about £50 I think

600g is a full set of cams. Who is to say someone with a double rack of cams isn't able to enjoy climbing? Perhaps they prefer knowing the right size is on their harness, if a little harder to find, than not having the right size - especially when you're starting out climbing.

It depends on the route and the climber I suppose. If I could see very little gear and the placement that might be there are hidden, I'll take whatever I can!

Perhaps the correct non-cliche would be "less is different". I bought a double rack of cams to climb in Norway and I find them useful back in Scotland where gear can sometimes be 'varied' in availability. If I'm at the bottom of a climb and I've got a choice of guaranteed available gear for a 600g penalty and it's sitting in my bag, I'm sorely tempted to take it. Then again, I'm a beginner climber and I have tried to climb with less gear a couple of times and had to climb past placements that could have saved me from potential decking - I'm not sure what the answer is... 

Pity I can't post the photo. But, since I notice that you are a 'supporter', let me try to mail it to you so that you can post it. You will see what I mean.

I'm not trying to labour the point, mind. On some routes I have taken way too much stuff; on others, not enough. You learn as you go along.

I think it's a modern failing of the internet, just get out and climb (safely), don't stress if you don't have the perfect rack, ideal ropes, footwear, you'll still be out climbing. It's the same with biking, so much internet noise 12x1, 3x9, 27.5, 29, carbon, alloy, hard tail, gravel or mtb etc.. just bloo** go out and cycle! 30 years ago no one sat around pondering if their rack was ready for grit or their bike had the ideal set up. 

Yeah, I can understand as things get more challenging optimising gear becomes more 'useful'. And climbing easier routes with less gear is more enjoyable too (once you're cool with the climbing)

3 x 9?! Hah! What is this? 2008?! ;⁠-⁠)

On 26"ers of course.

That's my point, if someone wants to cycle and a friend says you can have this bike with 3x9 for free, should they wait for better or get peddling. Same for an optimum grit rack, just get out, pick your line and grade, having fun climbing as they expand their rack. Many of us started that way in many sports, building up kit as you go, I'm sounding old again, but it's that have it all now, or instant gratification mentality, which is so prevalent in society. When were are old (obviously at 52 I'm barely middle aged ) we will look back at our experiences and likely wish we squeezed in a bit more, so why wait, just get out there and do it. 

A new and perhaps not that confident climber goes online to ask what gear he needs to do certain climbs safely - a perfectly reasonable question - and he gets accused of some dire moral failing and just generally not being as good as those that came before him. Wind it in a bit fella, or maybe consider posting in the Daily Mail comment section instead?

Quite. A few years ago, repeating Saxon on Scafell with a friend who had not done it, I insisted he carry the Rockcentrics we had with us as well as a set of cams. This was mainly because we had had a miscommunication of what gear each of us would carry in, so the rack was skimpy anyway. The crux crack was damp , stepping down for a readjust, he took a small fall. I was not expecting every single cam to rip and every hex to stay put.

Only  a small (ish) cartwheeling tumble rather than a helicopter job.

Lesson learnt for both of us.

I've accused no one of failing other than those who are discouraging the op just because they don't have cams. There are masses of grit routes which can be safely lead without them, literally thousands of them. 

Are you still here?  Well done if you are; I wouldn't be able to cope with the smug, know-it-all, narrow-minded, inconsiderate, elitist, thoughtless, empathy-free, dogmatic attitudes of many of the replies.

Sure you can.  Pick your routes and maybe drop back a grade or two to start with.  Still loads to go at.  Enjoy!

That is approximately no one! 

Half sizes didn't come out until some time after the original rigid sizes 1-3 which were closely followed by size 4; not sure how long after but it must have been 2 or 3 years at least. IIRC the original friends had some kind of circlip on the ends of the axles, before being replaced by nuts on the end.

Incidentally, has anyone else got a working (*) rigid friend ½ - the one with the titanium shaft. Great idea except that flexible friends came out 6 months later which were rather superior in that size.

(*) I say working because with the titanium, there are apparently 3 different metals and this easily leads to corrosive effects between them (some kind of electrolytic reaction I think) which seizes them up unless they're kept nice and clean.

As you now probably know it is perfectly feasable. And as you now know it is a matter of choice. People have been climbing bits of rock in the Peak for well over a hundred years, Hasket Smith published his climbing in the British Isles in 1894 long before cams were even thought of.

Modern cams make protecting routes easier in some cases that is obvious, other routes are effectivly solos (thinking here of Great Slab at Froggatt which has bugger all gear of any description, cams or otherwise). I use cams myself quite often but have also climbed many routes without them and would agree with others that a well placed nut is a very satisfying thing A lack of cams shouldn't stop  you climbing.

You don't mention how hard you climb. New to trad but maybe not to climbing overall. So I would certainly drop a grade or two until used to it. Finding a good position to hold and place gear is a skill. Placing gear is a skill, but all these come with time.

Two examples of poor gear placement

1. Already mentioned. A friend had all his nuts and hexes lift out on Flying Buttress Direct because he didn't take into account the pull on the rope and how that would affect his gear placements. Took a ground fall.

2. Another friend took a ground fall when his cams ripped on Telli. There is perfectly good gear in the break but he had slapped them into a poor section, shallow and slightly flared.

The point is nothing beats good technique and that applies to placing all gear. Placing passive gear is a pleasure in its own right and I would always advise people to learn to use it. I generally use passive gear first and cams if nothing fits or time and strength is an issue. Cams give you more options that's all.

Rather longer than your original question asked but the take away is go climbing use cams or don't use cams but have fun.

There's still a hexagonal industrial nut (perfectly serviceable!) lodged in a crack half-way up the starting corner of Gazebo (HVS 5a), which must have been there since... the 1950s or earlier? It's great to get a history lesson along the way.

I think the original ones had nuts on the end. In 1988 (or so), the nuts were replaced by a press-fit washer-style arrangement - but that failed in the field; all such friends were recalled, and refitted with machine-screw ends.

It's Cam by the way, not Cams....   

Or is it, most camming devices have two pairs of cams, a single pair would mean pivoting under load. 

Sorry to be a pedant but I have one with two cams either side of a fixed ridged stem (a Joker?). Anyway, it was rubbish and I don't think I ever trusted it anywhere critical.

I did say most not all, i think with those they just don't have the option for each single cam to be at different distances of extension or contraction, compared to when all 4 cams move independently. Which is fine in some even cracks, but a lot of rock isn't that even.

Ancient British tribe the Cammea

The Romans thought they were quite friendly

Next you'll be telling us that they were all good buddies 😁

Im pretty  sure the circlip failure was on very early versions. I bought four rigid Friends in spring 1980 for an autumn trip to Yosemite which had nuts on the axles. 

I have homemade 1/2 and 3/4 rigid titanium versions one of which stopped me when I fell off the top of Calvary.

Hah! I'm just pondering a reply to Phil's earlier comment about my list of 1970s grit classics. With rapidly pumping arms I was convinced that if the adequate holds on that headwall didn't keep coming I would very shortly be back on the ground!

They are adequate as I later found out, I was just using them in the wrong order!

By the look of it you have now bought some second hand cams on here. Great stuff and have fun!

As a general point though, I'd say top-roping is an excellent way to enjoy outside route climbing for those yet to get a full leading rack together. I remember when I first started climbing I had a reticence about top-roping that with hindsight doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Some long experienced climbers purposefully go grit top-roping even though they have all the gear. I've wondered about giving it a go myself.

Was that before or after that gear testing day at Yarncliff? Fond memories of being encouraged to take 8m whippers onto Faces cams, ( cads?). One 8mm rope probably softened the catch.

Seemed to work very well in shallow horizontal cracks.

I'd completely forgotten that day, Rick. No; that would have been several years later - late 1980s, I would think. My exciting time on Calvary was probably about 1984; Friends had been around for a few years, but still nothing smaller than a #1. I'm not sure when that titanium #1/2 made its brief appearance; 1986, perhaps. Of course HB had been making a couple of small sizes for a while. [That's 'Horsham Bruce', not Hugh.] People would occasionally return from a trip to Aus with them, but as far as I'm aware they were never commercially available.

I’ve left pretty much my entire rack and my harness at home after assuming everything was in my bag from the day before. Nowt to do with practical skills, I was just rushing.

We had a rope, a handful of slings and krabs and with a bit of knowledge we were still able to have a decent day out by dropping a couple of grades and picking routes with a few spikes and trees on them to sling for gear. Two learning points do rather stand out though: 1) carabiner brakes really don’t work very well with modern asymmetrical krabs, stick to a Munter hitch and 2)  modern skinny dyneema slings make for a very unpleasant abseil when used for a sit harness.

This is not a recommendation to the OP though!  

85/86 for titanium half I think.

86 for flexible friends? Maybe 87.

Recall late 86 Steve Reid asked me to belay him on his new route on Eagle Crag so he  could use my hot off the press "micro mate" made by our HB. Smallest cam at time I think, about 0 friend .

There is a lot of rock available for climbing that isn't diminutive gritstone! 10-12 extenders is fairly standard for much UK climbing - and that's often in addition to individually racked cams with extending slings (nice if your cams have them).

Yes; that all sounds about right. We were importing/distributing Metolius at the time; Sliders in 1985, then TCUs about a year later - which, if I recall, more or less coincided with flexible friends and micromates. Wired Bliss were also making TCUs by then but I don't think that they were ever retailed in the UK.

Surely the pointof theOP was that if he could 'just buy a few cams' he would. He wants to know if you can manage without (presumably for a short time before he gets some) which patently you can.

I mean if they are asking the question they must not have climbed much in the Peak so they can afford to be picky about the routes and crags they choose; there'a a lot to go at.

It's definitely a "cam" in the "peak"...

Having read (nearly) all of the posts above it occurred to me again that a really useful thing for guidebooks to start including would be a suggested rack, if not for every route then maybe for a buttress or crag. Some of the sport guides now tell you how many bolts there are on a route so it really isn't a big leap. My partner carried two extra ropes to the crag the other day and he really didn't need to, his legs got really tired on the walk in.

You have two places, white peak, dark peak... collectively the area is known as the ? 😉

OP just needs to ask themselves if they want to go climbing more than they want to go shopping. And pick routes appropriately. Nothing to do with grumbling old men

This sort of reasoning only applies to offsets...

It's completely feasible to climb without cams. You will be missing out on protection opportunities on a lot of routes but many routes will be just as safe without cams. Some will be much bolder and you might not be able to tell which they are. Start really easy and build up experience while you aren't likely to fall off.

He appears to have asked about buying some second hand on here - so it seems it was as much an “is it really worth it?” question. To which the answer is obviously yes.

A fact that literally everyone replying to this thread has agreed upon… 

Peak....

One sheep, two sheep, some sheep....

Oh the irony! Most of my interactions with you on UKC are challenging your hyperbole.... especially on the 'evils' of the SNP.

Back on subject I tend to recommend a wide rack of cams on grit, even for lower grade climbers, but I urge people to learn how to place them with experienced climbers or instructors, as so many climbers I see are demonstrating poor practice. I also urge people to not treat them as bolts.... repeated falls and moving around whilst slumped on cams when dogging routes  has trashed the breaks on quite a few Birchen"s classics and breaks on Stanage VS classics are noticably suffering as well. That's aside from the number of delicate flake holds lost due to inappropriate cam use. I think we need a more serious look at conservation issues around cam use, especially on softer sandstones.

Ewes, flock... it's only because sheeps just sounds odd!

What should the collective noun of peaks be? A Troll of Peaks....A Gatekeeper of Peaks..... ? 😂😂😂

I don't recognise any of that having happened. Maybe you should 'wind it in a bit'

A Range?

I was referring to ExiledScots unpleasant little missive: “I'm sounding old again, but it's that have it all now, or instant gratification mentality, which is so prevalent in society.”

You may of course agree with such sentiments, and think it’s perfectly acceptable to give a newbie climber a holier than thou telling off for asking a perfectly reasonable question. In which case, get back to eyeballing the sidebar of shame!

Peak District.

Seeing as maxwill882 never replied to the thread I say we all got trolled and I claim my 5 pounds!

Yes of course, cams are a relatively recent invention. They significantly increase the number of possible bomber placements though, so inevitably you’ll have less options without them. Just start at a low grade you’re comfortable being a bit run out on and go from there. Vertical cracks will be easier to protect with nuts than horizontal breaks.

Asking a perfectly reasonable question seems a pretty odd way to troll. The lack of reply could just as easily be shock at the consequences, as quiet amusement of a job well done. If it is a troll I admire the ability to deliberately achieve the metaphorical effect of a thread handgrenade with a metaphorical kids soft toy.

If you have to ask this question, then the answer is: get cams.

Definitely but I'd go to the quarries such as Millstone and Lawrencefield instead of say Stanage.

Did everything up to E3 at Millstone and Lawrencefield in the 80s on a double set of Wildcountry Rocks.

Get a few medium cams on your rack and it will really open up the natural grit for you.

E