UKH

Firstly does asking for advice on which type of gear (small wires, big cams ? You know what I’m getting at) a climb takes ruin an onsight ? 

  If not I’m just debating wether to borrow another set of cams, so advice on type and size would be much appreciated. 

 Thank you 

Well yeah but who cares. And in any case that thing will take pretty much anything which is clearly evident when you stand under it. So in this case, lets say no as i've not really given you any beta

Yes if it's not staggeringly obvious, which it is in the case of Cenotaph Corner.

By way of an experiment, we once fitted three racks of gear into the Corner, with the proviso that next rack could not be started until the previous one was expended.

I've not climbed it (or even stood under it), isn't the back of the corner a crack ranging from hands to fists? 

Also: I don't think it blows the onsight unless you get really specific beta. E.g. "large cams help" vs. "there's a hidden crack round to the right of the bulge just before the crux that takes a bomber #4 nut".

Standard rack

According to Patey you need:

nowt but pluck, beginner's luck,
And your mother's washing line.

Did it in '73 when there were no cams and it was bombproof with moacs and hexes. But it did have two pegs near the top!

And the pudding stone...

You could comfortably protect it with wires only.

Oo you've done it now, on-sight RUINED. It's irreparable. You can never get it back. Sorry.

Bits of knotted rope or you haven't done it properly.

Yes, totally bombproof in 1970, pre cams. There was only one peg - the top one had broken off about a week earlier.

Did it in '74, streaming wet, five runners in total. (Should've placed more!)

Mick

But don't use it all up too early, you don't need to

Take a hammer....then drop it on your second

you’ve already blown the on sight as you acknowledge it exists, may as well go for it now with a few borrowed big nuts and cams

Two pegs near the top! You were spoilt! In my day there were only two pegs in the county; I remember mi mam took us once on the no.47, 12 mile, to see them. Two pegs! We just had farm yard nails, we did...

Farm yard nails? Well lah dee dah! We had to do with shoe laces for slings. 

Shoe laces for slings?! What are you, the King of England? We had to share one pair of laces between the seven of us...

Ad infinitum

Five runners in 120 feet? Jokin' aren' ya? Whatever you take you'll use - like The Gates. There's something deeply satisfying about 'move up, runner on. move up, runner on'.

I fell of this in 1966 because there were no runners.  Not quite true, an situ threaded sling at 35 feet broke on me when I fell on it from about 45 feet.  It didn't end well. I did have a few drilled out nuts threaded on hemp slings which I was saving for higher up.

Al

The honest truth was that none of us had enormous racks of gear in those days. When I did Cenotaph I had all Tim's gear and all mine, probably about 20-24 nuts in total, and probably placed c. 10-12 of them, max. 

If you intend to take more than a peg hammer and a washing line a standard rack will be fine.

Although a large size 6 Dragon / size 4 Friend (the silver one) may be of comfort. I haven't carried one either time I've done, but I heard some say one came in handy.

And remember it's a long pitch so don't throw in gear every foot.

Enjoy!

Pete, what's the great line (from Top Gun?)  "Young, dumb and full of..."

It got worse - about a month later, Wombat, with four runners.

And then, the next day, reversing the groove of Man of Straw in icy, pouring rain, no runners at all, with a horrible landing below.

Young. Dumb.

To the OP and anyone else: fill it with gear. And anything else you can fill with gear, do likewise. Enjoy these great routes. And be as safe as you possibly can.

Mick

I think it was a #3 last time I did it (25 years ago). So a few people must have fallen on it since

Yes, if I remember correctly, I just took my standard rack, with a few extra quickdraws (I normally carry twelve).

Martin

Pity you didn't get a bit higher to use the drilled out nuts, I can remember still the bomber drilled out 3/8th Whitworth placement up there in 1965.  Though that used up one of our nine slings! 

Gerry

I was just making some very specific sounding gear beta up out of thin air, Martin, as an example for the OP. But, a no.3 and a no.4 pretty much go anywhere

I seconded it a few years ago. It seemed very safe, with loads of possibilities from a comprehensive standard rack. I'd make sure you have lots of quickdraws and a couple of sets of nuts along with some cams and maybe some hexes of some sort (or just more cams I guess) and you'll be sorted.

I've a photo of me roping up at the bottom in pouring rain on my 21st birthday ( 28 Sept 1973). Three slings and five nuts is the rack.

Earlier this year whilst in the Pass a pair of European climbers asked us how many bolts were in Cenotaph corner. When I replied that there are none they walked in the opposite direction...

What! No bolts? That route would be certain death!!

Young, dumb. The line was from Point Break.

Sounds as though you did it in even worse conditions than me - with less gear as well!  What on earth were we thinking about - or not thinking about - in those far-off, misty, halcyon days?

I remember seeing a picture of a mate in Yorkshire, Roger Pendleton (beautiful technical climber), leading it in 1964. He's got one runner at the little slot at about 15 feet and he's just below the niche - with nothing else in!!! 

There's a point where boldness becomes madness.

Mick

Thanks. I nearly always manage to get these things hopelessly wrong. It's a great line and I'm glad that I can finally attribute it correctly. Thanks again.

Mick

Wasn’t Alex Honnold down climbing the corner when he had a day up there?

I know it’s a path for him but even stepping over the edge would fill me with terror, rope free!

I carry a normal rack for it, there’s tons of gear choice so it doesn’t really matter if you don’t have the right piece for a placement, there’ll be another option within reach.

Ruin an onsight? No, not in the way falling off would ruin an onsight. However clearly any info beyond what you can see from the ground or any reasonable vantage point and beyond what’s in the guide book will detract somewhat from an onsight. As long as you’re honest with yourself and others, who cares?

Why not borrow the extra cams, walk up to the route and decide for yourself? For a 30-40m pitch I would normally take a set and a half to two sets of cams anyway but then I don’t mind having a heavy rack.

When people say standard or normal rack, I wonder what they actually mean. I bet everyone has their own ideas of what is standard. Besides, a standard rack for a 12m grit route would be quite different to a 40m pitch half way up a multi-pitch route at Gogarth. The number of runners will also depend on the route’s difficulty relative to one’s ability / top grade. It might be more helpful to say that no unusual (tricams etc), very small (smaller than a small blue cam or number 1 nut) or very large (larger than a big blue cam or hexes) gear is required. 

And if the crack really does 'take anything you can throw at it' then you can just dump the excess rack in the lower half anyway and leave your second to worry about carrying it up. No harm at all in placing loads of gear.   

Im not sure how saying “take a normal rack” is any different to saying “no need for anything unusual”?!

I for one was astounded to hear that 'normal' and 'standard' could also mean 'nothing unusual'. Glad we got that cleared that up!

I frequently find UKC rather sad. Someone asks about the gear needed on Cenotaph, and several of us (e.g Mick Ward) pointed out that it's really good and you don't need a huge amount. I reported how it was: "The honest truth was that none of us had enormous racks of gear in those days. When I did Cenotaph I had all Tim's gear and all mine, probably about 20-24 nuts in total, and probably placed c. 10-12 of them, max." And got an immediate 'dislike'. Aren't 10-12 runners enough ??? Is this a rock climbing website or not ???

The internet makes it possible to remove quite a lot of the uncertainty that was previously a major feature of climbing. We probably all make use of that to some degree but some take it further than others.

Hi Mick, I also had a challenging time on Wombat. My rack was 2nd hand/donated and not what you would call extensive. Moacs and the like. I might have managed a couple more runners than you though😁My memory is a bit foggy these days, did some people arrange a runner on a tree branch for that?

Not sure about spoiling the on-sight on Cenotaph corner, you can see that it’s possible to lace it by standing at the bottom and having a look!

All I can remember from about ten years ago is that there are good small wires at the crux. The crack was wet and off I popped. Rather handily Don Sargeant appeared and offered me a rope, which seemed churlish to refuse. I had high hopes that I may appear in the new Llanberis guide but it was not to be. 

I wouldn't worry about 'phantom dislikers' on UKC. Sometimes it seems so odd that you would like to insist that they be dragged out from under their stones and forced to give a reasoned argument for the dislike. Best ignore it.

Fair point but there is a subtle distinction - a standard rack implies a standard number of pieces as well as standard sized gear. Or may be it does not. That’s the issue, it’s not clear. Whereas if you say that you only need standard sized gear, that’s a lot clearer. I might be splitting hairs here. 

10-12 will be enough for some but not for others. Nothing wrong with putting more runners in. It’s all relative, Joe Brown probably had considerable less than 10-12. 

Sure. The point is that it's well protected, and with modern gear you can put in almost as much as you like. I would have thought that most people nowadays would use 10-15 runners, but probably not much more. But I really don't know.

Thanks for the advice everyone. Climbed it yesterday. Took two whippers from the top hold, I could see the belay tree but was so pumped I couldn’t hold on to the top hold. Fell back to about half way. Got it on my third attempt. Managed to get a DMM 00 size dragon in a couple of feet above the rusty peg. That’s what I fell on. Awesome climb very hard (for me anyway) chuffed to bugger I climbed it 👍

I take it each time you fell off you removed all the gear and started again from the ground? Expect the wrath of UKC collective ethical opinion if not. 😉

Great to hear. That's just as it should be. I was also right at my limit when I did it, and was totally pumped at the top. I didn't fall off, but I was very strong then and just willed myself to stay on ... Like you, chuffed to buggery. What made it a particularly good day, was that my brother, who hadn't done it, when he heard back in Wendy's Cafe that I had, went straight up to do it. So we both led it on sight on the same day (Aug 1970).

Awesome day for you both. I’m not too fussed about the fall. Lead climbing at my limit feels like proper climbing 

Haha definitely not. Hopefully they accept that I filled out my logbook correctly (with falls) 👍

Back then you were lucky to have that much gear!