UKH

Seems Fromage, Sanook and all the flag shaggers are up in arms today over the colour of a cross.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68640129 

I think that Nike should have made it rainbow coloured so that we could have had a scanners-style syncronised head exploding moment across the flat roof pubs across the country, and Ashfield.

Funny what folks get in a tizzy about.

I honestly don't understand why people are so upset. It's not like its front and centre and if it makes a portion of England fans feel more included then it is a positive.

That would make sense if it was actually a rainbow flag or had been declared that that was the reason. As far as I have seen, they changed the colours for no reason at all. 

The people who have done the most to lay this country low are the most vociferous in their vocal faux patriotism.  What a surprise.

Precisely. It's not a "woke" version so no argument for or against on that account (despite what the Telegraph says). Nothing wrong with the England flag and this thing is not the England flag (if it were you would have to argue that the Irish flag is also the French flag). 

I'm with Sunak on this. And Starmer and Farage(I suppose😱).

They're a trainer company, changing the colours of things is literally what they do. Someone probably thought it looked nice, "a classic design but with a modern twist", that sort of thing.

I'm baffled that anyone thinks this is worth looking at twice, let alone having politicians make a noise about. It's pure culture wars pot-stirring to help radicalize gammon by making them feel like they're being victimized. "Did you know that these days they'll arrest you and put you in jail just for saying you're English?"

Odd considering how the tories like messing around with the union jack.

Such as this backdrop

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/article/explainer/conservative-pa...

I believe there was a concerted effort to reclaim the cross of St George. It had been adopted by the far right and football thugs. The same sort of people who are so proud of the flag, they deface it by having England written down it. You know, just in case, you didnt know what flag it was.

The more you can do to break that association, the better in my view.

Quick question to the group;

What are your thoughts if you saw a front garden with an England flag, fluttering in the wind?

Does it make you feel patriotic and misty eyed? Or do you think you'll have your ear bent by a ukip supporter?

I would think they'd devalued their home. I certainly wouldn't live next door to anyone who had a flag pole in their garden.

If I see a flag flying in someone's garden in the country they already live in, it's probably safe to assume that they are a gammon/le jambon fumé/de schinken/etc. That's no truer of the George's cross than any other powerful country's flag. 

Slightly different if you live somewhere like Wales for example, where it's a bit less gammony to be proud of your country due to essentially being amalgamated into England.  

I'm not remotely bothered about them changing the colours in this instance but it's obvious that people would be and it was stupid of them to do so, or maybe a marketing masterstroke. 

Peter Shilton disagrees with you. He said on R4 this morning that it was woke.

You'll be astonished to find I don't get it, and by that I mean none of it!

Today I can't put myself in either camp's shoes. I don't get where the designer is coming from if it is, as stated, an apolitical nod to vintage training kits then the cross emblem seems an odd thing to re-colour, it loses it's meaning and looks muddled. If it is a nod to modern England's diversity then fair enough but why not own it and do the colours have some widely accepted meaning I'm missing?

And why are the thumpers so convinced it's 'woke' gone mad? Beyond the obvious opportunity for high profile fulmination as a campaign tool.

jk (quite confused)

My neighbour two doors down flies one.

He had a pro-brexit 'noticeboard' in the front of his garden, with the usual lies. He doesn't seem to have replaced it with a 'brexit successes' noticeboard. Or maybe he has...

Lets the side down by not having proper daily flag ceremonies, though.

I just read the article you linked and I've never felt so cross.

"A row over the latest kit - which costs up to £124.99 for adults"

£125 for a football kit. Jesus, how is it so expensive?

Any way, back to the point I think you were trying to make.

"Prime Minister Rishi Sunak said he preferred the original and the national flag was a "source of pride" and identity."

It's hardly up in arms. He prefers the original. So what?

"Meanwhile, Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer told The Sun the "flag is used by everybody, it is a unifier, it doesn't need to be changed".

A similar none up in arms comment that he prefers the original.

Are you perhaps getting a little excited that a few politicians have said they prefer the original?

I have summoned up as much Give a S. as I can muster on the issue and I can just about manage:  meh...

Jesus wept, calm down!

I mean sure, but where were all these politicians when Timothy Taylors replaced the jovial "mine host" character on the Landlord label with a boring-looking bloke in a rugby-shirt? When did irrelevant branding decisions become a matter of national importance?

Unmistakably a stylised Union Jack. Like many others such as on BA planes. It's fine by me.

Agree, it's not a rainbow flag at all. Neither is it a flag. It's just a cross in random colours (well, apparently something to do with the 1966 training kit but more likely a way to sell £125 tops to the punters).

I was considering installing a flagpole so that I could work out when the sun was over the yardarm

https://www.flagpoleexpress.co.uk/flagpoles/fibreglass-flagpoles/fibreglass...

Uh huh so why do you support their outrage about the other one?

It's that price because market research says its the maximum amount of money they can squeeze out of the supporters. 

Politely what the feck has it got to do with you? 😀

As someone else said, it's hardly outrage. 

Because, unlike such stylised Union Jacks, it isn't obviously recognisable as the English Flag.

Politely wtf?

Having not won the World Cup for fourteen consecutive tournaments, it can't hurt to freshen up the old flag a bit. Plus it looks good. Plus Farage is wrong about practically everything to the extent I think he's doing it on purpose.

It’s refreshing to see something in the news I just don’t give a single crap over.  

“They are racists, you are a gammon, I am proud” kind of thing?

I like it.

Good point, 'bread and circuses' have been an appeasement tactic since Roman times. Got me hook line and sinker it did - probs because I'm reeling from the horror show that is the international news and our country's involvement in aspects of it.

Depends whether there's a big tournament on - it might just be an enthusiastic football/rugby fan.

The rest of the time I think I'd see the England flag in someone's garden as a bit of a missed opportunity for some gammon to make a tit of himself by flying the Union one upside down.  (So close to 50/50 it sometimes seems as if they're all just guessing.)

I am concerned that there are folk out there who cannot tell the difference between a shirt collar and a flag - especially as they are often called flag member of the cormorant family ers.  

This would never have happened when they started messing around with the England shirt in 1975 (adding red and moving to a lighter blue).  If collar detail were a thing then the gamgams would be up in arms about not being able to see the collar due to long hair which was one of their obsessions then.   Is long hair still evil or "woke"?

I was and still am, far more upset about Hereford playing with navy shorts in the early 1980s.  That crime was due to Admiral going bust and the perennially broke club buying a set of nearly black and white Tottenham kits off the receiver.  As for those light blue sleeves on the England kit a few years back,,,,,,

I suspect it is alluding to your nationality...

Yes, I am all for national flags being for everyone as a symbol of unity and they should always be reclaimed from subgroups who try to hijack them for their own cause, whether that be far right groups in England or the independence movement in Scotland.

Sport seems to be one of the few areas that does bring nations together, so the more flags then the better as far as I am concerned, specially at a time when there seems little togetherness or other pride in the country.

Regrettably there would be a suspicion of the far right but I would try to suppress prejudice without actual evidence.

I actually feel a little envious of countries where people can unashamedly fly their national flag in simple pride of their country without fear of misinterpretation. Norway, for example.

I wonder how many people objecting to this trivia would be quick to denounce people as "snowflakes" for being triggered by things far more important than the colour of a wee emblem on the back of a t-shirt?

British, but half English so I'll be supporting England in the Euros unless they are playing Scotland.

I imagine that the people in England who fly the cross of St. George do so unashamedly and in simple pride of their country as well, otherwise why would they do it?

Unless maybe they're just trying to wind up the sort of person who moans about "gammons" on random internet threads? In which case, they're doing quite a good job.

May well be, but it means others can't.

Okay, so they mistakenly assumed you were Scots, living in Scotland.

That was my polite WTF, BTW. Trying to provide an explanation for the comment. I'm not sure why polite explanations attract dislikes, but hey ho.

Oh, come on; you can't really be that naive.

Are suggesting they actually hate their country and are ashamed to fly the flag but do it anyway? As some sort of self imposed pennance for whatever it is we're supposed to feel guilty about perhaps?

Whatever you, I or Emily Thornberry think about flying the flag on a house, I'd be very surprised if the people doing it didn't feel unashamed to do so and weren't proud of their country however misguided you may think they are.

Indeed.

I am sure they consider themselves to love their country and are unashamed to show it by flying the flag, but for many there is probably also an element in it of giving two fingers to others whom they see as not loving their country.

It is the 'simple pride' bit that is naive. I don't see it as a positive thing; I see it far more aligned with a small-minded "I want my country back" mentality. And, yes, they are unashamed about it, too.

Maybe we only suppressed latent racism for a couple of decades, but it seems to be increasingly 'out and proud'.

You are fully entitled to your views, but to denigrate people just because they respect a flag as a symbol of their country displays a misplaced assumption of UK demographics. It is both condescending, patronising and says more about you than whoever you had in mind. Across the world respect for a country’s flag is paramount, especially in Europe and the US and is in no way xenophobic or an indicative of a low IQ. However I do concede it is a commonly held view of the left.

'Flag-shagging' isn't something that has been a big part of English culture. It's only in recent years (in particular, this series of Tory governments) that it appears to have become prominent, with flags prominently draped during press conferences and the like. Or even in the home offices of grifters like Shapps/Green/Fox/Stockheath (who had both a Union flag and RAF ensign on his office). It's a populist move.

Yup. I tend towards the more arrogant view that we dont need to wave flags to know who we are.

I am not sure its so much a populist move so much as just an attempt to pretend patriotism and respect for the country whilst in every other way undermining it. Hence all the tories wrapping themselves in the flag whilst selling the countries assets off on pennies to the pound.

Populist as in harking back to Empire. And I'm with you on the "don't have to wave flags". Because we had a bloody Empire...

Now we don't have an Empire (something that doesn't bother me at all), the only thing we have left is a flag. So those trying to evoke days of a Great British Empire (as you say, pretend patriotism and respect) shag it for all they're worth. Or all they can grift...

It all feels worryingly like trending towards the US iconography of the flag. I have always found the idea that kids have to pledge allegiance to the flag very bizarre and a bit worrying. The American flag is almost holy for them. 

This kerfuffle about a daft wee cross on a shirt feels a bit like people are trending towards similar levels of veneration of a flag. I always thought part of the essence of being British was not taking ourselves too seriously. Playing with the colours of a wee cross on a t-shirt seems to align with this British value to me. 

Indeed.

On the other hand, imagine if Nike had decided to piss about with the US flag... Maybe it's because we're not entitled to own military weapons...

On the US aspect it does remind me of the way the president salutes back which always struck me as odd since military in civilian dress shouldnt salute and so civilians never should. Turns out it was Ronald Regan cosplaying being a military leader who started it.

Overall the flag shaggers remind me of my two catholic secondary school head teachers.

The first one didnt give a toss what you believed in so long as you acted in accordance with how he thought a good catholic should behave towards others (which was rather different from how some priests and nuns did behave as various scandals have shown).

The other was all about the symbolism but not about the core moral principles.

If they were teaching today I expect the first one would be feeling happy seeing students volunteer at the same foodbank as them and the latter would have a union jack in the office.

On the other hand, imagine if Nike had decided to piss about with the US flag... Maybe it's because we're not entitled to own military weapons...

Adidas did - two kits for the home World Cup in 1994. One stars and one stripes.  The stars, which is a cult kit now, were white on grey.   That was the shirt, not a bit of stitching hidden away.  A bit like the Olympic kit in 2012 that gets mentioned a lot.

Or the football shirts designed by Peter Saville for the 2012 euros which had crosses in a bunch of colours on it and proudly announced why it was the case.

https://www.dezeen.com/2010/09/02/england-home-kit-by-peter-saville-for-umb...

Newsthump sums it up nicely.

https://newsthump.com/2024/03/22/the-gammonati-demands-a-time-machine-to-go...

Meanwhile Laurence Fox has been out speechifying today, calling for a boycott of Nike products.  With his Nike trainers on. 🤡

Speaking of ticks.

Iceland have thanked some gammonites about melting down over hot tick buns.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/iceland-hot-cross-bun-rees-...

Personally I would be in favour of shooting any company selling them more than two weeks before easter as well as dodgy (ok this would be difficult to put into law) flavours but thats a slightly different discussion.

Im neither left nor right but if we had decent full house of politicians,  I'd be just right of centre, just. (See Rory Stewart)

I dislike flag shagging and prefer quiet,  contemplative, dignified, sometimes piss-taking and self deprecating patriotism for which the UK was once proud, not populist, angry, shouty, whiny,  reactionary,  jingoistic,  xenophobic,  misty-eyed imperial, bulldog tattooist,  Faragist-type faux-patriotism associated with people who would fly a St George or upside-down union flag in their flont garden and get upset about the colours of a emblem on the back of an overly expensive footy shirt. See also MAGA.

Classic

You entirely prove my point!

Can someone explain to me why this is 'woke'. I get why you might be driven to apoplectic rage if if you luurrrve the St George's Cross and have a historical blind spot to all the times its been mucked around with on the national strip before but why drag tofu loving guardian readers into it? 

When Gordon Brown came to power I think his first speeches as PM were concerned with reclaiming the union flag from extremists in the interests of a proper patriotism. He encouraged all government buildings to fly it all the time rather than just on designated flag days. He even floated the idea of British school kids pledging allegiance in special ceremonies. I can't remember if that ever got to discussion stage.

We saw Indian kids pledging allegiance on a school exchange and my kids actually quite liked the idea. Just like the Indian kids they felt no discomfort about expressing their patriotism. When we got back home I did toy with the idea of introducing a School Pledge as one of my April Fools but chickened out in case it went pear-shaped in the press.

It's not. It's just the wrong colour.

That's what I figured, but various national newspapers and the usual swivel eyed loon pundits have declared 'woke' and I just wondered if anyone could explain why?

I might think "oh look, a flag fluttering in the wind" but in reality I would probably just carry on with my day.

Because they are idiots who like to frame everything as part of the culture wars. In fact it was intended as a nod to colours on a strip worn in 1966.

"The glorious truth behind the celebration of Easter is that Christ died on the cross for sins and then rose from the dead to conquer death."

Truth, eh...?

I like hot cross buns. So I am perfectly happy that they are available year round. Chocolate, and apple versions? meh.

In which case, I have no idea what your point was...

Coloured rags on poles (or collars) don't do anything for me, but seems to be a marketing error from Nike.

When your target demographic tends to value symbols above substance you're probably better not to piddle around with the symbols (especially if you're already taking the p1ss with the price).

What next? A system that prevents BMWs from getting closer than a 3 second gap to the car in front?

Still, all very amusing from a distance.

I think it’s meant to be similar to one/several? of the “pride” flags.

https://www.ukip.org/ukip-events

Hmmm....

"No farmers, no food"

I think they meant "no farm workers, no food".

Now, where did all those farm workers go...? Oh yes, back home to Europe.

Quite. However I would encourage folk not to read a single thing on the site but simply be amused by the prominently displayed flag based logo.

The fact that you feel the need to say this is telling. Despite the colour change, the distinctive design of the flag means it is still unmistakably the Union Jack. On the other hand, change the colour of the much simpler St George's Cross and I don't think it is recognisable as such. However, once you start stylising the Union Jack such as on BA planes or the one linked earlier as a backdrop to Boris Johnson, the colours need to be retained to keep it recognisable.

British Airways: now that was a classic manufactured Rage when they got playful with their rudders. (1990s?)

I think a gentle reminder is required that while this has been an "enjoyable"  diversion, it is Holy Week and therefore the season of "They are not allowed to put Easter on Easter Eggs Rage" and this hallowed tradition, now a few years old should be respected.

Though, as in this thread, a lot of the rage was manufactured rage at imagined manufactured rage which was really, as in Sunak's case, just pretty mild preference. Both sides are probably equally guilty; my only rage is, as the voice of reason, at the usual sad internet polarisation.

David Squires on excellent form - here's everything you need to know about this story in cartoon form:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/picture/2024/mar/26/david-squires-on-e...