UKH

What now for Labour?

Was it Jeremy's fault that the British public did not trust his 1970's mindset or was it the Perfect Storm of Brexit and the December vote wot did it for Jeremy?

And who will become the next Labour Leader to sit in the shadows for 5 years?

The Lib Dem experiment failed as well. Jo Swindon losing her seat to the SNP and the party failing to gain any number of seats shows what the country thought of her stop Brexit campaign. Strangely enough their share of the vote increased which was the result of another failed experiment otherwise known as tactical voting.

Yes it was Jeremy's fault - a fitting conclusion to his career of consistent failure. To our cost.

SNP win in Inverness- predictable but Cons second!! Then also next door  in Moray -Con! and Con seats up generally in Scotland- not many but up.

So it has to be the appeal  of Cons! That is a Conservative win of ideas not a Left wing loss. Beats me, it really does.

Scotland is sharply divided from England now. 

The 52-48 issue in Scotland is independence.

Yes and no.

Yes if you look at wild results of FPTP.

Far less so if you look at more stable Holyrood results.

Next Holyrood elections will be interesting with Ruthie gone. Might change the balance somewhat

Swinson failed in Scotland cause Scotland predicted correctly a Con win in England and chose a SNP  barrier and didn't hedge anything. Understandable cause no room for subtlety  in this election.

English politics is beyond my understanding! They did have Lib Dem ideas but didn't choose them. Corbyn too left wing for England and in Scotland centre left ground is already taken by SNP.

English media also presents a two way political spectrum, not three, so I think that played a part. England never moves on culturally because of this. The media is also definitely responsible for the mindset. There was a Liberal choice in England but no one went for it.

I wanted a  centre left /Lab coalition gov- gone.

Turns out that not enough people were willing to hold their noses and vote against their better judgement for a leader they never should have been asked to support.

Disappointing for the country, but hardly surprising.

Many people were too scared of Corbyn to risk it.  I know a number of traditional Labour voters who couldn't stomach him.  That and Brexit.  Perfect storm maybe but I'd pin most of it on Corbyn.  

As someone who, through gritted teeth, voted Labour in the forlorn hope that the local Tory might be ousted, I'm afraid that the Labour Party are wholly culpable for 5 more years of Conservative Government, in allowing itself to turn into a wholly unelectable force. Time for the momentum wing of the party to split, form a separate party and see how many voters really support them.

And still I sit here listening on the radio to talking heads saying it's nothing to do with JC. Why is he still here?

This is an aside, but what would the result have been if the single transferable vote system had been used? { despite the fact the results are somewhat shifted by tactical voting rather than real political belief.} Still interested. Someone with a computer model.

Yes, but look at Inverness constituency- it never had a Con in second place and now a strong conservative vote in Inverness! Scottish Parliament is proportional representation.It is so odd. So Indy 2 polarised this constituency like never before. I don't think it was a vote for Brexit really.

I think that’s at least as much down to electoral pacts on the leave side but not on the remain. 

Doesn't always mean it will follow through at Holyrood elections. Also, a lot can change between now and then as de pfeffel drags us out of the EU and people see quite how damaging that is it might change their minds. I'm not really speculating at the moment which way things will go at Holyrood, just that many voted for Ruth and now she's gone it could change things. 

How do you see this translating? The argument is now thoroughly polarised squeezing out Lib Dem.

Scotland has now voted for a majority of independence supporting parties in three Westminster elections and two Holyrood elections. It couldn't be clearer. If the UK has any claim to democracy the power to hold a second referendum on Scottish independence needs to be devolved to the Scottish Parliament now. I'm proud that Scotland has once again sent a clear message that we want no part of this Conservative government and its policies. With younger voters emphatically supporting independence, a full constitutional change may not happen tomorrow, but the momentum is unstoppable. The results announced this morning are another important step towards restoring self determination in Scotland.

Polly has changed her tune:

This morning:

No there's not, more people voted for non-independence parties than pro, regardless of what the number of seats says. Independence speech from the SNP is simply fuelling tribalism in the way Brexit is in the English heartlands. Furthermore, having a strong Scottish voice in Westminster is a very, very different thing to being a separate and isolated nation, out of the UK and out of the EU.

Yes, it was Corbyn and Miln and Momentum's fault.  The British public simply don't want a 1970s cast leading them, with a grossly incompetent leader of dubious loyalties.

I don't think Labour as they have been considered in the past (left, socialist, northern etc) can ever win again.  There needs to be a new political project. Blair managed it but then everything fell apart.  Something similar is needed.  I assume this will happen over time because in terms of vote share the Tories "only" got 40 something percent.  There are plenty of people who don't support them, and more who only supported them this time because of Brexit and other factors.

Well, at least I've been consistent ever since he was elected. But that's no consolation.

A discussion about Labour's train wreck is hijacked by SNP arguments?

I did not see that coming. Makes a change from three years of Brexit hijacks.

Jeremy's own party tried unsuccessfully for a few years to oust him, until finally a second election proved he was unelectable.

Was Boris always going to win irrespective of who lead the Red Team?

Interesting comment from Alan Johnson last night, Labour's losses are down to Mr Corbyn's unpopularity

"It's Corbyn, it's Corbyn. The Corbynistas will make an argument that victory is a bourgeois concept, that 'the only goal for true socialists is glorious bloody defeat'.

"And now we've just had another one. And there'll be all the conspiracy theories thrown about. It's Corbyn. We knew that in Parliament. We knew he was incapable of leading, we knew he was worse than useless at all the qualities you need to lead a political party."

Fairly relevant wouldn't you say given Labour have lost all but one of the seats they had in 2010 in Scotland, mostly to the SNP?

No.  Practically anyone but Corbyn would have beaten the Tories in 2017.  Harder in 2019, but a clear, positive message with a strong Labour leader willing to engage beyond left-wing rallies, perhaps with a sensible pact with other progressive parties would have beaten Johnson this time round too.

When parties lose badly they always say they need to listen, though in reality they often just blame (and I don't mean themselves)

So for those interested in listening here's my take on it from someone whose overwhelming emotion last night was not that Johnson had won but sheer relief that Corbyn had been destroyed.

As Jon Ashworth revealed to his (ex) Tory friend in the secretly recorded phone call when he told him not to worry, both Corbyn and his failure to honour the referendum result are toxic.

Labour have betrayed their working class voter base, the very reason the labour party exists, by breaking its promise of the 2017 election. That base may not be the best educated or the most eloquent but they know when they're being taken for fools and they know the Labour party is now the home of a coalition of Marxists and liberal metropolitans often more interested in disabled, transgender refugees than them.

But more than that they offered the country a preposterous manifesto of pie in the sky promises which would have caused instant capital flight and a run on the pound, (it rose over 2% on the news of the exit poll) and in the long term taken us back to the rampant inflation and industrial chaos of the 70's. The manifesto has eclipsed Michael Foot's as the longest suicide note in history. Based on this offering Labour have been given the kicking they deserve, their worst election result since 1935.

And all that with a disgraceful leader, a Britain hating, terrorist sympathising, anti-semitic Marxist who would shame a third world banana republic.

One crumb of comfort for the sensible left at least, is that this punishment beating should act as a necessary first step in purging Labour of the extreme left Marxist Momentum faction which has hijacked Labour and turned it into the new nasty party, much like it had to be purged it of Militant in the 80's. Momentum has a much firmer grip of course so it will not be an easy task, especially given Milibands ridiculous pound shop party supporter scheme for electing leaders, but it needs to be done.

Britain needs a viable opposition and one day it will be in power, it needs to be a sensible, moderate centre left party when it does for all our sakes.

If Labour had had an electable leader, the 2019 election almost certainly would never have been called. It would have been far too risky for Johnson, with no credible policy supported by a majority and without his Ace anti-Corbyn card to play.

He lost the leave vote and he lost moderates who had no confidence in the affordability of his proposals...

The leave vote will be back next election but without the moderates the party will struggle to gain a majority in the future.

Personally I believe that Lib Dems gained votes local to me not due to tactical voting (West Berks, Henley etc) but due to the strong remain element, decent policies coupled with a lack of confidence in the leadership of Labour & Tories.

I really hope that this the wake up labour needs and they don't simply blame Brexit. A strong opposition makes government better.

You reckon they are going to go quietly?

I was quite vociferous in the run up to the election that tactical voting for Labour, or doing so with noses held, was only going to prolong the Momentum calamity. Now those who did so will have to "own" the next Momentum-approved puppet.

Alan Johnsons comments on Momentum etc are straight on the nail.

It is a great shame that the new left/momentum can only refer to Blair as a war criminal and not acknowledge that he realigned the politics of the left to make it an electable force.

Labour could have put up John Major as leader and he'd still been characterised as an extremist threat but I agree that JC was never a viable choice under the circumstances.

Certainly a more moderate leader with less radical policies might have helped; a focus on NHS, education, austerity and little less. However the challenge of Brexit was always going to be difficult to get around. Impossible to square the circle, if you fundamentally think it's the wrong thing to do and half your natural vote disagree. I'm really disapointed that the Labour leadership couldn't win that arguement against a backdrop of, what seemed to me, obvious Tory/Johnson lies.

Reasonable people change their opinion when presented with new facts. And similarly, reasonable people don't gloat.

I think it would be churlish not to recognise the valuable contribution of posh boy Marxist Seaumus Milne. At least he can hole up in one of his dad’s foreign villas until it all blows over🤮

I would like Jess Phillips to lead the party. Proper conviction Labour person and it’s about time a female leader was chosen. In reality the NEC and MaoMentum won’t countenance her or Keir Starmer (probably because he’s too electable). Jezza will stay leader until a suitable clone’s training is complete.

If my Facebook feed is anything to go by, they are astounded, angry and resentful that "the centrists" didn't come and support them.  The lack of self-awareness on the far-left never ceases to amaze me.

Almost certainly not, Corbyn should have resigned by now (actually he should have been shot at dawn ), that he's staying on to oversee a 'conversation' suggests he wants to annoint his chosen successor. The sensible wing of the Labour party is making all the right noises, unfortunately the Momentum types seem to still be blaming everyone but themselves.

I do question whether the relentless focus on the NHS is a good idea.

My own and my wider familys experience of the NHS is that it is not failing and a mess.( which includes my Mum and Dad who were regularly in and out of A & E before the passed away and daughter s who live in London).

There are issues but when you look at satisfaction surveys it comes out at about 85% satisfied.

I'm neither a Labour Party member, voter, nor Corbynista but this is absolute rubbish. I live in Manchester, which is pretty red (still) and the local Labour MPs, councillors and members seem most interested in homelessness, lack of funding to public services, local issues that are affecting local people. The Labour Manifesto (whilst being a totally unfocused bag of, at times great, and at others totally unfulfilled/ridiculous, promises) didn't prioritise disabled transgender refugees over anyone.

The time for Corbyn is over and Momentum need to sort themselves out and listen to what the results are telling them. They've allowed the political pygmy that is Johnson to have a free run at runnign the country. One can only hope that the size of his majority means he can go and tell the right of the party, the ERG etc, to go stuff themselves and he could be the One Nation Tory he's been telling us he is since he got into power. He rolled over to the EU's requests on the Withdrawal Agreement, so hopefully he'll roll over in whatever negotiations are required for a Brexit Deal as well.

In the (hopeful) re-birth of Labour, not every policy needs chucking out, there was some great stuff in the manifesto. They just need to pick their battles and keep in mind that the poorest in society need their help and having a great socialist manifesto* whilst handing the tories power is not on.

*Even bring public spending onto "average" level for a western democracy is too much for the right wing UK to countenance and they need to accept that. It'll take a while for the centre to swing back from the right.

Looking towards the 2024 election (let's start now ) if either party want to be elected then, the Tories will need a major shift from the right to the centre ground and be shown to do that. Labour will need a major shift from the left to the centre ground and ditch all things momentum in the process.

The level of burnout of staff is pretty high though. They are under staffed and underfunded. My wife is a Consultant Oncologist on a four day week. A 48hr week is a good week. She also works on her "day off". 

Recent Labour vote shares and MPs:

2001 - 40.7% - 413

2005 - 35.2% - 356

2010 - 29% - 258

2015 - 30.4% - 232

2017 - 40% - 262

2019 - 32.5% - 203

Looks like more people voted Labour in this election than under Brown & Miliband. Clearly not enough people voted Labour, but part of the problem is that far fewer of those votes were converted into seats compared to pre-2017 elections.

Wot did it for Labour was a language - you can't address an an aspirational society as "workers" in the old socialist language- That is a mindset long gone. Amongst the vagueness of political  positions especially Brexit. Pitching people's identity was crucial, especially in a nation of "shopkeepers", which is uniquely a British thing not a Stalinist thing.

I do not disagree with you, just questioning whether all the focus on the NHS is good. On my FB page innundated with stuff on the NHS.

Its not paid off politically for the Labour Party.

The 1983 labour manifesto was called the longest suicide note in history. The 2019 one means it’s now only the second longest. 
It’s a shame because what it attempted was only to correct the plummet to the right that has taken place in the course of this century, and relocate U.K. politics a bit more closely aligned to what happens in mainland Europe.

But it spooked the right wing press, and ruffled the sense of entitlement of the upper-middle-income group.

Fact remains we need a decent opposition more than ever; Corbyn and McDonnell have to own the fact that opposition has been AWOL for the past four years and somebody has to reconnect the Labour Party with the issues that concern normal, non hedge-fund-owning voters.

Probably should  be on a different thread but has anyone else wondered if there’s a connection between Priti Patel’s off piste cosy chats with Israeli politicians and the revitalised accusations of antisemitism in the Labour Party? Rings a sort of Trump-Ukraine bell for me...

In a lot of peoples eyes they are getting care for free - and most people are on the side of the NHS staff (point of care staff) who are trying their best to help them - so fill in a survey on that basis  - They give a positive score because their doctor, nurse and HCA etc were hard working - and feel putting a bad score will somehow reflect on the individual staff.

If you charged someone £5000 for their care and then asked whether they got a good service I suspect the satisfaction scores would drop dramatically and they'd start writing all sorts of feedback about every aspect of the service they think they have paid too much for.

I'd agree with you there. 

I think the real thing that hasn't paid off is Corbyn. Chatting to work collegues and especially my mother and her fiends (mainly small c conservatives/one nation tory types) they all were pretty appalled with Johnson, his campaign, their local MP and the racist rhetoric but, "could never vote for the Marxist Corbyn". The things that worried them are defence and the economy and he would "wreck them both". 

Lucky you! Where I am (Berkshire), the NHS is woefully inadequate. I can't get a GP's appointment for love nor money, even though I work locally, so can take the appointment at any time of day!?! If I earnt enough, I'd go private tomorrow!

We got a Referendum, when the country needed an Election.

I predict that Labour won't get in power next time either because they don't know how to play nicely with each other.

I really do wonder how many people can define what a Marxist is. I think it involves revolution, the irony being that the Johnson Tories are the revolutionaries. 

There not revolutionist there the capitalism machine

What 'new facts' as are these then? Most sane people having been pointing out for years that Corbyn was unfit to lead the Labour party, that his personal ratings in the polls have been the lowest for an oppo leader since records began, that the feedback from the doorsteps of traditional labour strongholds is that he is out of touch and not trusted, that he has flip flopped and been evasive on the biggest domestic issue facing the UK for decades (Brexit) and been utterly ineffectual when dealing with antisemitism within elements of his party. But only now, after being his cheerleader, Polly tunes in to the these 'facts' and executes the perfect U turn.

Or maybe not.  I'm still not convinced that Brexit supporting, would-be Labour, voters are inately anti-European. 

It's a cliche, but their issue looks more to do with the "metropolitan elite", and Brexit being one of the few ways they can attack that cultural stranglehold.  If Labour appeared less focussed on the disabled transgender immigrant mother, and less dismissive of the Brexit voter, Brexit might become less interesting to a lot of traditional Labour voters.  

That hope has been undone somewhat by the unwillingness or inability of Parliament, and the dogged opposition of that same metropolitan bloc, to enact Brexit.  To the voter from Kings Lynn it just looks like whatever they do, even if through a ballot-box majority, the other side will make sure it doesn't happen.  Obviously Brexiteers are equally to blame, but you can imagine how it looks to them.

Simply put, with a bit of moderation on the rhetoric and a less divisive attitude between Brexit and Remain when it came to social issues, Brexit itself might be less popular.

They are ideologues, it is their way or the high way, they have attacked and driven out or deselected moderates any centrist from their own ranks, labelled them 'Blairites' and 'Red Torys' and generally made the Labour brand so toxic very few people don't want them anywhere near the levers of power. Unfortunately they have infiltrated the PLP to such an extent I cant see any way in the near to mid term that the party can return to the centre ground.  They would prefer to be ideologically pure and in perpetual opposition then actually vaguely appealing outside their immediate delusional fan base.

well it continues all the liberals and centralists  start there attack on Corbyn and the left

Crack on!

There's probably a lot of people out there who came to the conclusion that, despite the dire warnings, Boris et al aren't going to "sell the NHS", that some market-based tweaks wouldn't go amiss, and that our health service is going to have to face changes due to demographics.

The relentless claim that Boris would do something that he and his party say they won't, and which would be political suicide to institute (given strong support for the NHS cuts across party lines and the US model is no one's ideal), draws in to doubt the truth behind other Labour claims 

There's only so much crying wolf you can do before switching off.

Didn't the Daily Mail produce a handy cartoon guide to historical materialism?

Do you mean dialectical materialism?

General Practice is essentially privatised...

I'm also in Berkshire. I can get an appointment on the day I ring up.

Especially when you are own experience of the NHS  is good...................

Ringing up..bit old techonlogy. Good grief our surgery has app based appointment system...its excellent.

No, I mean the application of the fundamental philosophical principle of Marxism (dialectical materialism) to the development of society (historical materialism). Other definitions are of course available.

Yep, more a perfect storm of circumstance, hubris and exhaustion than the simple Labour/Corbyn failure we'll be sold. That isn't to excuse them or especially him of their evident failings. I just hope they do pause for reflection before reacting, always assuming of course this loosens Momentum's grip sufficiently that the party is able to react. Not a given.

jk

re. Johnson's tories

Yes. Making a revolutionary power grab for a kleptocratic minority of a minority.

There's more than one version of capitalism.

jk

I too think Corbyn has obviously failed and needs to go but I do have one question for all the left-wing folk declaring that Labour obviously needs to avoid the trap of espousing radically left-wing policies and must inevitably embrace the centre ground... If the country is really craving the centre then why did the Lib-Dems also continue to suffer so badly? If left-wing policies are the problem, shouldn't the Lib-Dems be cashing in big time?

Because of our stupid electoral system. If we had STV or a system that allowed you to vote for who you want without having to factor in their chances of winning then they’d have smashed it. 
 

edit to add detail: STV would have enabled them to pick up votes from people like me, who genuinely liked them but made (and lost) the gamble that our vote was better used trying to push labour forward, plus they would also have picked up votes from people like the harder left and right wings who would have voted for a centre ground party as a second or third choice  

Often not available for emergency appointments though. We have a great app to schedule non emergencies, but on the day emergencies are done by phone. However, it is a very good system running through a call back and staff nurse triage system that means those that need seeing, get seen.

I don't know. It will be interesting to watch

Well, they did increase their vote share overall by an ok margin but got pasted in Scotland by the SNP, which is a different battleground than the rest of the U.K.

Also, the revoke Brexit didn’t sit well with many and they have (well, local to me) a ridiculously negative and b**ls**t heavy propaganda wing that turns off a lot of people.

Add to that Swindon didn’t have a great campaign and none of their policies cut through into the mainstream.

People in general aren’t politically engaged. They don’t read past the headline or the soundbite. The Lib Dems didn’t get any headlines or sound bites.

Both.

Should take our time. There's some very good Labour MPs. If I had to nominate a candidate now I'd probably go for Lisa Nandy.

Totally with you on the stupidity and frustrations of FPTP. The failure of the electoral reform referendum was one of the worst and most consequential vote results in a decade full of disappointing results.

But I'm not sure it's entirely down to that. I voted in Cheltenham this election, where it was a clear two-horse race between Lib-Dems and Conservatives, but the Conservatives still managed to hold onto it. I don't think it's true to say that the centre ground is always and inevitably the clear path to electoral success, for Labour or any other party.

PR and AV is not the gold plated answer. You only have to look at the fraught negotations in Germany and other  countries to understand this.

Lets turn it round and say after a good few years of paralysis in govt, the FPTP system has  delivered a working government ( even though its not one I voted for).Its taken a few years of turmoil to get there.

Historical materialism is the classical Marxist explanation for historical change within economic systems, i.e. from feudalism to capitalism.

But explaining that somewhat destroy Andy's joke.

Having a pledge to spend £30 billions on broadband was nuts, just pathetic. Spend a portion on social care and forget the broadband, least for starters. They deserved to lose, McDonnell is hopeless.

What 1970s mindset was that ?

Where's Cumbria Mammoth today? Who else assumed they were a Momentum bot? They were always up for a tussle when anyone tore into Labour's economic muddle. Fair play to them, I thought they debated politely and persistently, if light on economic arguments.

I agree with all your points apart from the last one. 

Polly T has never been a Corbyn fan or cheerleader, she has always been a critic, her article today was just a bit more vocal than normal

Fantastic result for career protester Jeremy Corbyn! He has succeeded during his time as ‘the great’ leader in turning the Labour Party from a serious alternative into a protest movement. This result was not just about Brexit, but about leadership, policy and competency on the economy. Oh Jeremy Corbyn! (Hopefully, I will never hear naive, blinkered morons sing these stupid words again!)

james

While I've got the chance before Alan kills me off ...

I pity all those Labour voters who've been CONNED into voting Blue, shit, you're going to pay for it.

Anarchism is the future for this shit hole selfish money grabbing goon led country.

By blaming the one who gave hope and vision and not putting the blame at the source of the despair and disease which is the billionaire run UK, far right establishment and media then nothing will change for the better in this place in the foreseeable future and anyone who attempts to will be shot down. 

It's a race to the end of the world, blame immigrants over a climate change revolution, ignore 14 million in poverty for a pathological liar that blames immigrants. 

The UK is a far right dystopia but don't worry as the ToryVölkischer Beobachters will deny it all and tell us everything is fine. 

And continue to fiddle whilst we burn. 

Don't waste your breath, babe.
UKC is a hot bed of comfortably (numb ) off middle classes.
They wouldn't know a social security benefit if it hit them in their face.

Come on Alan, hit the delete key

Just leave already....

Should have had an amendment on that Boris deal to get referendum  not rush to GE as both Labour { hubris} and yes Lib Dem { misjudgement} did. I disagreed with all 3 trajectories and look at it now. The mistake was then. Dominic Cummings 10 points, everyone else  nil points.

The comfortably off middle classes know all about social security benefits - they are the ones who pay most of the tax (willingly) that provides these benefits!

Corbyn still hasn't resigned. He is incapable of understanding that HE was the reason for the disaster, but is still trying to blame Brexit. That's a red herring, and he should know it, but he's so wrapped up in his own little bubble surrounded by the Momentum faithful that he just couldn't and still can't see that he was unelectable. People have been saying that for ages, but he and his bubble mates weren't listening.

I keep wondering how Offwidth is doing today. 

I imagine he's not resigned because he wants to exercise some control over who succeeds him. Probably on an 'anyone-but-Keir' basis. 

In other words still meddling with the party and trying to see it dragged back into the 1970s. He is toxic.

If it weren't pissing down I imagine he'd have gone climbing to allay his disappointment. I like Offwidth for his passion for climbing and as someone who adds much to this community on a wide range of subjects. I wouldn't compare him to a bot assigned to spread fake news (not that you did). CM denied Corbyn's Andrew Neil interview meltdown only yesterday!

There to see the anointment of Long Bailey, I imagine. That will be a complete disaster. He should go now. He should have gone before dawn. Trying to wrestle back control from momentum’s power on the National executive could prove to be virtually impossible. This will mean a continuation of ridiculous policy, pointless rallies and the provision of a pathetic lack of opposition to Johnson. I hope I am wrong but I fear that this may be the end of the Labour Party. 

James

I don't get Keir as leader at all. There's something missing that I expect to see in a party chief. He's too submissive. No doubt biding his time. But Labour needs someone with real chutzpah to grab the party by the scruff of its neck and confront the far left throwbacks. Jeez, I'm describing Tony Blair.

I think Keir is an obvious front bencher, but agree, he’s not a clear leader. Jess Phillips is the most impressive, but the press will just characterise her as a thick brummy, she’s better suited  to being the heart of the party like Alan Johnson or Mo Mowlam. 

Maybe Yvette Cooper would be the best, but I can’t see that happening with the current membership. 

YC would be my choice.

Imagine he was the CEO of a large Company publicly vying for the largest UK contract of the last few years.
As part of that process, he continuously states how good his ideas are and to the extent of putting them in a book available for all to see.
He not only loses the contract, but loses it in spectacular style.
Do you think the Company would want him anywhere near a position of control of future business?
Shouldn't Corbyn, as a man of integrity, etc. shoulder the blame and take the responsibility for it by resigning? 

He has been interviewed today and said the NEC would be meeting at some point and they would decide when he should go, even that decision is beyond him. 

You really can't blame people for not wanting to vote for him. I did but only because I hated Johnson more and I wanted to boot Philip Davies out of Shipley. That didn't work either! 

of all the horrendous tories who have had for too much tv time over the last few years, I really thought his card would be marked after all his mysogynistic bs but it turns out that’s what the people of Shipley wanted! 

He must have a huge wallet to snare Esther!

No you're not, you're describing Neil Kinnock!

And maybe John Smith, RIP.

He's getting paid an extra £1000 a week as Leader of the Opposition so perhaps you can't blame him for delaying the inevitable for as long as he can.

I thought he was a man of great principles? 

Stephen Kinnock looked plausible on QT this evening.

so much for labour - wither the Lid Dems? Straight to Ed Davey?

That was slightly tongue in cheek as I'm sure Corbyn wouldn't be influenced by such things and I think the real reason why he hasn't resigned as per precedent is that he bizarrely thinks that he is still relevant.  

Exactly.  I know if I fill in a bad score for a doctor or nurse, some management idiot will make their job even more difficult.  Those scores are not particularly useful.  

Bottom line re: Kier is that, in this media age, the grim truth is that his voice just won't cut it.

It sounds bad on the radio = no hope I'm afraid.

Political dynasties make me uneasy, much worse in America, but for Kinnock with BOTH his parents having been so prominent it feels iffy. I guess he didn't go to Eton though, so there's that!

I suspect brand Blair is toxic. 

Restoring self determination. You must have a long memory

Lucky you!

Can't say fairer than that!