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https://shop.conservatives.com/collections/got-brexit-done/products/got-bre...
Do others here find this propaganda souvenir not just embarrassingly naive, but really quite offensive? At an immediate level, because the Britain of Shakespeare, Newton, Faraday, Brunel, and Darwin is reduced to the Britain of the tacky tea-towel? But beyond that, because its primary message 'Got Britain Done' is a straight lie? (Truth = Got Brexit Started. Though it's ironically fun that the arch/unprecedentedly dishonest PM Boris has wrapped himself in the slogan.)
There are so many things that are just plain weird about it. First, and surely most obvious, is that the date of our leaving is done in Roman numerals. Just what could be more paradoxically bizarre than that? You just could not write the date in a more universally European and less English way than that.
Then there are questions about the flag behind Boris's head. Very odd. Looks like hints of dis-unification to me, but it could just be sheer sloppy design because the whole thing is so immensely amateurish. (But perhaps they want to give this impression deliberately, so that old xenophobic farts in village fetes feel comfortable?)
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Hahahahaha. Awesome piss take by someone. I have to give credit where it's due, that's definitely one way to make money out of brexit. But if I were the person who made it, I'd be a bit worried from a legal standpoint - I'm not sure it's OK to use an image of a famous person to sell stuff without their permission and I'm damn sure Boris never signed off on it
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In reply to henwardian:
I’ve just spent five minutes trying to ascertain whether this is definitely a spoof or not, and I still can’t tell!
What are the signs that it is a spoof ? I am only on my phone so I might be missing some mouse-over giveaways
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> but it could just be sheer sloppy design because the whole thing is so immensely amateurish. (But perhaps they want to give this impression deliberately, so that old xenophobic farts in village fetes feel comfortable?)
It's quite likely the sloppy design was on purpose. Not sure if you'd read about this: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/23/tories-hire-facebook-propa...
“We’d make them really basic and deliberately lame because they’d get shares and lift our reach; that made our reach for the harder political messages higher,” an anonymous individual told the Sydney Morning Herald, dubbing the strategy “boomer memes” as the content appealed to older audiences.
In recent days, the Conservatives have begun purposefully posting badly-designed social media material, at one point urging MPs to back a Brexit deal using the often-derided Comic Sans font. The Tories’ political opponents lined up to mock the image, inadvertently sending it viral and ensuring it was seen by a wider audience.
This fits into a larger theme of anti-intellectualism (because sloppy work demonstrates that you are not a perfectionist 'elite' - it's the language of the underdog class).
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In reply to Blue Straggler:
Tbh I just assumed it was a joke at first glance, I didn't actually look around on the site. I'm going to keep on assuming that till someone tells me otherwise
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In reply to Blue Straggler:
Googling for 'shop Conservatives' made Gordon's copied link appear as the first one.
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In reply to henwardian:
Amazingly, this is on their genuine site.
If you first go to:
https://www.conservatives.com/join
and then click 'Conservative Shop', bottom right, you'll get to this:
https://shop.conservatives.com
and the tea towel.
Plus a lot of other 'Got Brexit Done' crap: mugs, lapel badges, fridge magnets.
Post edited at 00:08
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
It is incomprehensibly crass. It is actually better than I can imagine any spoof! Just unbelievable. I agree with your OP, it is offensive regardless of one’s stance! The bit about shipping on February 10th just feels like a nod to perpetual lags and delays...
Post edited at 00:14
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In reply to henwardian:
> Hahahahaha. Awesome piss take by someone. I have to give credit where it's due, that's definitely one way to make money out of brexit. But if I were the person who made it, I'd be a bit worried from a legal standpoint - I'm not sure it's OK to use an image of a famous person to sell stuff without their permission and I'm damn sure Boris never signed off on it
Unfortunately they are taking the piss out of us. And you've been taken in by it. It IS completely genuine. The only solace we can have is that they are taking the piss out of themselves ... apparently without realising it. It must be one of the most politically ill-conceived pieces of propaganda in the last half century.
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In reply to Blue Straggler:
>The bit about shipping on February 10th just feels like a nod to perpetual lags and delays...
But that's just such another delicious irony, isn't it? - that 'Got Brexit Done' will be late ... ...
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I hope it turns out to be someone having hacked the site.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Yeah.... er.... ok... It is actually an official conservatives thing....
Wow
I just don't even know what to do with that.
Honestly, if it was a joke and money was going charity or the pocket of someone with a sense of humour, I'd solidly consider buying it but the joke feels somewhat spoiled when I know the item is meant in all seriousness by its makers and ofc I'd rather burn my money than give it to the conservatives.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> Unfortunately they are taking the piss out of us. And you've been taken in by it. It IS completely genuine. The only solace we can have is that they are taking the piss out of themselves ... apparently without realising it. It must be one of the most politically ill-conceived pieces of propaganda in the last half century.
Actually you've been taken in by it. The point is to pander to their audience, and at the same time anyone who shares it and tries to mock it by saying "look at how absurd this is!" really just gives them a wider reach (see excerpt and article I posted above). This is most definitely not an ill-conceived piece of propaganda - I think it's quite shrewd actually, and if I'm right we'll soon see.
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In reply to SenzuBean:
Your theory is so funny really. I wish it were true. (Also, you seem to forget the political makeup of the majority of this climbing website.)
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I would pay money for toilet paper with 'Got Brexit Done' stamped on every sheet.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:It's not really my theory. That article lays it out quite clearly what their tactics are to reach their audience. Do you think it's a co-incidence they hired these people and started posting badly formatted memes?
I also don't think we can extrapolate from the political views of the posters, to the political views of the lurkers. There has been a trend for prolific posters of alternative viewpoints here to stop posting entirely, for example..
> Your theory is so funny really. I wish it were true. (Also, you seem to forget the political makeup of the majority of this climbing website.)
I also don't think we can extrapolate from the political views of the posters, to the political views of the lurkers. There has been a trend for prolific posters of alternative viewpoints here to stop posting entirely, for example..
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> ... There are so many things that are just plain weird about it. First, and surely most obvious, is that the date of our leaving is done in Roman numerals. Just what could be more paradoxically bizarre than that? You just could not write the date in a more universally European and less English way than that...
Yes but if not Roman numerals, they would have had to use Arabic ones.
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In reply to NathanP:
> Yes but if not Roman numerals, they would have had to use Arabic ones.
Arabia has nothing to do with Brexit though, as none of its nations are anything to do with the EU....
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In reply to Blue Straggler:
> Arabia has nothing to do with Brexit though, as none of its nations are anything to do with the EU....
Numerals are just one more thing we appropriated from Arabian and Hindi cultures. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 & 0 are about as British as a tiger.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
They should bring out a range of conservative Brexit dildos , emblazoned with the phrase " Get Britain Fu@ked" down the side of it.
;-D
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Wow - that's the next Christmas sad sack present sorted.
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In reply to Blue Straggler:
> Arabia has nothing to do with Brexit though, as none of its nations are anything to do with the EU....
You're wrong! There's a massive queue of arabs waiting on the beach in Dunkirk waiting to get in an inflatable so they can get over here before the January 31st deadline. I know because my cousin posted a picture of it on his Facebook page.
Tell me this: if we 're such a loser country, how come you can practically walk across the Channel on the heads of swimming migrants all coming this way?
(This is a joke, by the way. But the picture my cousin posted isn't.)
In reply to NERD:
> but to be honest I'd much rather go for a pint with him than most politicians.
Possibly, but that isn't usually regarded as a qualification for being Prime Minister. There again, I've had a pint with a considerable number of people I've no doubt would make a better job of it.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Sadly not a wind up of fake, a mate of mine signed me up as a supporter of the Consevative Party (I know what a wag!!), anyhow, I recieve emails every now and again, either asking for money, support or to flog me useless shit. This was one of them.
They are also doing fridge magnets and most ironic mugs !!
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In reply to Chive Talkin\':
> They should bring out a range of conservative Brexit dildos , emblazoned with the phrase " Get Britain Fu@ked" down the side of it.
All with defective batteries so no-one actually gets what they were promised.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Google EU flag tea towel sales. There are lots including stop BREXIT etc. Are these offensive?
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Seems like it's working quite well to me.
They aren't interested in selling tea towels of course, it's about spreading the message and getting the phrase "get Brexit done" baked in to people's heads by getting as many people as possible to hear it as often as possible.
People on here saying it's dumb, targeted at idiot Brexit voters or poorly designed etc are in fact the exact people they are targeting, it's you guys who are the suckers here. They successfully triggered your faux discust in order to have you lot spread the Brexit word to loads more people for them. As for everyone who comments in here many, many more will see it receive the message. Many of whom won't be seeing it advertised directly so you've helped the virus spread nicely.
Even if they don't sell a single towel I think the people at Tory HQ will consider this advertising money well spent.
Labour have a leadship campaign on where they could well doom themselves to a minimum of a decade in the wilderness yet here are the anti Tory , pro remain camp arguing over a tea towel while repeatly repeating the "get Brexit done" slogan for them for all who may be interested.
Post edited at 09:08
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I suspect most will be purchased to be given as humorous gifts to remainers from brexiteers. Quite clever really. Aimed at the 60 + market I expect. I remember my parents buying tea towels from holiday destinations we had visited camping back in the 70's.
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In reply to Lord_ash2000:
You're not the first on this thread to suggest this. To a great extent I agree (although I am not sure what you mean by "triggered your faux disgust"), but I wonder what the point is? Surely Brexit IS "done", in the sense of "done" that this merchandise seems to imply. What's left to "spread"?
Is it the concept of Boris and the Conservatives in general being the people to get THINGS done?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I think I might buy some as presents for my friends who voted Leave.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
utterly tasteless and offensive - but a sure sign of the Tories trying to make a profit from Brexit.
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In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
> I would pay money for toilet paper with 'Got Brexit Done' stamped on every sheet.
Unfortunately so might many ardent Brexiteers. Often we intepret things to suit our views. It could be a reminder of success and triumph in a Brexiteer bog.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
When a Teatowel is used, any germs/bacteria that are still on one item get transferred onto the next item which gets dried. (Which is why the food industry has to let items dry naturually).
One can only hope that those who purchase such an article do indeed transfer germs/bacteria across their washing-up, and then endure the predictable aftermath of such infections.
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
> All with defective batteries so no-one actually gets what they were promised.
https://news.sky.com/story/british-fishermen-fear-they-wont-get-what-they-v...
Bit like this perhaps
In reply to oldie:
> Unfortunately so might many ardent Brexiteers. Often we intepret things to suit our views. It could be a reminder of success and triumph in a Brexiteer bog.
Maybe I'll change the toilet paper slogan to 'Got Brexshit done.'
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
We might as well get with the winning team and exhibit a brexit magnet on our soon-to-be-empty fridges and drink Victory coffee, Winston Smith style from a Boris mug as I fear the horse has bolted
It's tacky garbage though, you're right.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> Do others here find this propaganda souvenir not just embarrassingly naive, but really quite offensive?
Love it. Shit, vainglorious and simplistic. It's absolutely pitch perfect. It's probably made on that weird cloth that doesn't dry stuff either.
> ... Roman numerals. Just what could be more paradoxically bizarre than that? You just could not write the date in a more universally European and less English way than that.
Yeah but Arabic numerals, think about it, know what I mean, right. Muslamic innit, we didn't end Europe to get all Sharia.
> ... the whole thing is so immensely amateurish. (But perhaps they want to give this impression deliberately, so that old xenophobic farts in village fetes feel comfortable?)
Loving the inclusion of shamrocks, that well known emblem of Ulster but then bloodied hands would I suppose have been too open an invitation to those who question brexit's impact on the stability of that fragile peace.
jk
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In reply to Lord_ash2000:
> Many of whom won't be seeing it advertised directly so you've helped the virus spread nicely.
Yeah, it's definitely remain voters who are responsible for what's coming. It's always someone else's fault. Always.
> Labour have a leadship campaign on where they could well doom themselves to a minimum of a decade in the wilderness yet here are the anti Tory , pro remain camp arguing over a tea towel while repeatly repeating the "get Brexit done" slogan for them for all who may be interested.
Labour's leadership sideshow can't prevent a decade of Tory vandalism and looting. Nothing but demographic change will now. You won.
jk
Post edited at 13:27
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In reply to Lord_ash2000:
> Seems like it's working quite well to me.
> They aren't interested in selling tea towels of course, it's about spreading the message and getting the phrase "get Brexit done" baked in to people's heads by getting as many people as possible to hear it as often as possible.
> People on here saying it's dumb, targeted at idiot Brexit voters or poorly designed etc are in fact the exact people they are targeting, it's you guys who are the suckers here. They successfully triggered your faux discust in order to have you lot spread the Brexit word to loads more people for them. As for everyone who comments in here many, many more will see it receive the message. Many of whom won't be seeing it advertised directly so you've helped the virus spread nicely.
> Even if they don't sell a single towel I think the people at Tory HQ will consider this advertising money well spent.
> Labour have a leadship campaign on where they could well doom themselves to a minimum of a decade in the wilderness yet here are the anti Tory , pro remain camp arguing over a tea towel while repeatly repeating the "get Brexit done" slogan for them for all who may be interested.
That's an interesting hidden agenda theory which handily skewers who you want to be critical of.
Post edited at 13:37
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In reply to jkarran:
> Loving the inclusion of shamrocks, that well known emblem of Ulster but then bloodied hands would I suppose have been too open an invitation to those who question brexit's impact on the stability of that fragile peace.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co...
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In reply to Blue Straggler:
> ... Surely Brexit IS "done", in the sense of "done" that this merchandise seems to imply. What's left to "spread"?
It's the acceptance of it they are spreading. Brexit is "done" now in the sense you're talking about. But as we know a lot of people still aren't happy about it. There will be a certain percentage of the population who will never get over it and that percentage seems extremely overrepresented on here however there are huge numbers of people out there who voted remain but range from pretty dissatisfied to a bit miffed to not in the lease bothered either way. And it's those people who, if you go on about long enough will eventually just get used to it as the new status quo and stop grumbling.
However those people aren't always easy to reach, they don't sit there all day reading pro/anti-Brexit articles but they might see some facebook advertising or maybe a link some hardcore remainers are spreading on a forum because they can't contain their disgust at such a crappy tea towel rubbing their noses in their defeat.
But if you get a message out there enough it'll start to sound normal and it's okay to go along with normal sounding things. As the old saying goes, all publicity is good publicity
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In reply to Phantom Disliker:
I'm going to play the "Ode to Joy" very loudly at 11pm on Friday. I might buy an in car PA system and go round and round playing it
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In reply to Lord_ash2000:
> It's the acceptance of it they are spreading. Brexit is "done" now in the sense you're talking about.
No, brexit is irreversible, it won't be done in any meaningful sense of the word for at least a couple of decades, that will over the next couple of years become painfully and inescapably apparent. No amount of shit merchandise will hide that fact or make it palatable. A war might.
jk
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
The should sell some Union Jack balaclava's
They would be ace and go down a storm
In reply to Blue Straggler:
> Surely Brexit IS "done", in the sense of "done" that this merchandise seems to imply. What's left to "spread"?
It hasnt really started yet but if they get the false perception in that it is done and dusted then when he continues a habit of a lifetime and backtracks on promises the hope is everyone will have forgotten about it.
In reply to henwardian:
> Hahahahaha. Awesome piss take by someone. I have to give credit where it's due, that's definitely one way to make money out of brexit.
For me, that's the funniest bit, it is real.
Cummings & co must be pissing themselves, we've got 'Outraged of Belper' et al frothing at the bit. Hook, line & sinker!
I thought a lot of people on UKC were supposed to be intelligent ...
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In reply to henwardian:
> I'm not sure it's OK to use an image of a famous person to sell stuff without their permission and I'm damn sure Boris never signed off on it
Given his track record, I'm sure he'd be more than happy with this kind of tawdry tat.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I think a commemorative Brexit Tea Towel Holder would be more appropriate.
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In reply to George Ormerod:
Toilet paper would be more useful!
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In reply to SenzuBean:
> This fits into a larger theme of anti-intellectualism (because sloppy work demonstrates that you are not a perfectionist 'elite' - it's the language of the underdog class).
No spelling mistakes, though, or random apostrophes.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I think you might be overthinking it. Political parties on all sides often sell merchandise with slogans of various kinds on them. Sure it might look a bit naff, and I do appreciate your point about Brexit only being begun, but you're just not the intended market. Different people have different tastes and that's fine.
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In reply to youngtom:
Yes, you can even buy a tea towel from the Labour party. https://shop.labour.org.uk/product/sadiq%20tea%20towel
Admittedly it's for Sadiq as London mayor but at least a tea towel is generally hidden, you can also buy any number of "For the many not the the few" Corbyn posters and stuff too.
In reply to SenzuBean:
> Actually you've been taken in by it. The point is to pander to their audience, and at the same time anyone who shares it and tries to mock it by saying "look at how absurd this is!" really just gives them a wider reach (see excerpt and article I posted above). This is most definitely not an ill-conceived piece of propaganda - I think it's quite shrewd actually, and if I'm right we'll soon see.
Yes, absolutely and the fact that people like Gordon are getting their knickers in a twist about it just makes it even funnier.
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In reply to youngtom:
> I think you might be overthinking it. Political parties on all sides often sell merchandise with slogans of various kinds on them. Sure it might look a bit naff, and I do appreciate your point about Brexit only being begun, but you're just not the intended market. Different people have different tastes and that's fine.
Yes, there's likely to be no hidden agenda like suggested.
Post edited at 18:34
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In reply to pec:
Oh dear. You think I'm getting my knickers in a twist about it, when actually, I find it very, very funny. In the same way that I find Captain Mainwaring or Basil Fawlty funny. In fact, I thought it had to be a joke at first, and was astonished when I found it wasn't. The sad thing is that those who created it don't apparently get the joke.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> Oh dear. You think I'm getting my knickers in a twist about it, when actually, I find it very, very funny.
Then you have a very odd way of expressing yourself. Your OP has all the hallmarks of someone who'd had a sense of humour bypass.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Nice attempt at a bit of back-tracking there Gordon.
Several hundred words of OP, you got suckered in by the their bullshit.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Just ignore it Gordon. Rise above it. It's happening whichever side you are on so don't let Brexit grind you down. Just enjoy life and keep having fun.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I think they missed a trick, there should be a Got Brexit Done nappy....
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In reply to The Watch of Barrisdale:
> Toilet paper would be more useful!
Are you familiar with the slang meaning of tea towel holder? 😉
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Bit Orwellian isn't it? I'm pretty sure the Conservatives campaigned against brexit in the referendum.
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In reply to Philb1950:
> Google EU flag tea towel sales. There are lots including stop BREXIT etc. Are these offensive?
No
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In reply to Lord_ash2000:
> However those people aren't always easy to reach, they don't sit there all day reading pro/anti-Brexit articles but they might see some facebook advertising or maybe a link some hardcore remainers are spreading on a forum because they can't contain their disgust at such a crappy tea towel rubbing their noses in their defeat.
It's not that the tea towel rubs hardcore remainers' noses in defeat, it's that the utter stupidity of it is hilarious.
I was leafletting the day before the election and I turned into a road and there was house with a Union Jack flying, on a proper flagpole, in the garden. "Aye aye..." I thought.
Sure enough, the name of the house, (everybody else had numbers) carved expensively on a rock, was... "Agincourt".
They got a leaflet anyway.
Brexiters, you better get used to it: you won, but we'll never stop laughing at you; and it looks like you'll never stop giving us cause.
Post edited at 08:12
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
It would be equally good to have some of the same tea towels but with a photo of Jezza on it. Bodger shouldn’t be allowed to take all the credit
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
it's on a par with the BREXIT meps waving their proud little flags while Farage made a sour face after the rather more appropriate singing of Auld Lang Syne. They did not arf look silly and as small in mind as their flags were in scale.
Have you any plans for spending your share of the Brexit dividend?
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
Explain why. It seems an identical but opposite parallel to me.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Mugs are £15 by the way!!
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I'm so divided. I want to buy a mug and leave it in the office at work, but I don't want to give my hard earned money to the Tories.
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In reply to Mike_Gannon:
I wonder how many of these mugs might get "accidentally" broken in the washing-up if they were taken to work.
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In reply to fred99:
> I wonder how many of these mugs might get "accidentally" broken in the washing-up if they were taken to work.
>
There are much more worse things you can do to someones mug. Coffee fred?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I’m reminded of George Bush on an aircraft carrier in 2003: “mission accomplished”
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In reply to wercat:
> Have you any plans for spending your share of the Brexit dividend?
I'm going to spend it on an Irish passport.
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In reply to Philb1950:
> Explain why. It seems an identical but opposite parallel to me.
In your universe Brexit is opposite and equal to Remain; Trump is a great president; Johnson isn't a liar; climate change is a hoax and the English population is being replaced by migrants. Just for today I'm going to enjoy having the freedom of a continent because tomorrow it'll have been stripped away. They're playing martial music on Radio 4, you're probably enjoying it, I'd rather have the Ode to Joy.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
would that I were eligible. My grandmother referred to Scottish and Irish blood in the family but as she died in 1986 I can't go back and ask her. In fact there are only a couple of relatives left alive older than I am.
I'd love to substantiate the claim that one of my grandfather's cousins read the funeral service for Al Capone
A black day today and a stream of events that should live in infamy
Post edited at 09:45
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In reply to Taylor's Landlord:
> There are much more worse things you can do to someones mug. Coffee fred?
One can indeed.
(I'm a tea drinker myself)
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I see Tony Blair has found something positive to say about the future. Maybe you should take a leaf out of his book.
Tony Blair says Remainers must not look over their shoulders "in unrequited longing for what was".
The former Labour PM says he opposed Brexit "with every fibre of my political being" and still regrets the decision.
He also hits out at his party's "mind-boggling ineptitude", which he says "helped facilitate" Brexit happening.
But Mr Blair says the attitude of Remainers should now be "to strive to make the best of it [and] to approach it with determined optimism, not looking over our shoulders in unrequited longing for what was".
He adds: "No one in the country is going to thank us or think more of us if we behave churlishly in defeat and frankly the challenge of making Brexit work is sufficiently important for our nation, that we cannot afford to be absent from it.
"Britain is a great country. At our best, we are a great people. Our history shows us what our future can be. Time to embrace it."
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In reply to Gone for good:
it is for the takers not to be churlish, not the taken from. Poor choice of words from Bliar
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In reply to Gone for good:
> He adds: "No one in the country is going to thank us or think more of us if we behave churlishly in defeat
Personally, I'm wondering when they'll find out my dad was a refugee and I get a knock on the door in the small hours.
> "Britain is a great country. At our best, we are a great people. Our history shows us what our future can be. Time to embrace it."
How statesmanlike...
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In reply to Gone for good:
> But Mr Blair says the attitude of Remainers should now be "to strive to make the best of it [and] to approach it with determined optimism, not looking over our shoulders in unrequited longing for what was".
> He adds: "No one in the country is going to thank us or think more of us if we behave churlishly in defeat and frankly the challenge of making Brexit work is sufficiently important for our nation, that we cannot afford to be absent from it.
> "Britain is a great country. At our best, we are a great people. Our history shows us what our future can be. Time to embrace it."
Meaningless platitudes from a bloke who for some reason thinks he's relevant and needs to say something statesmanly.
I might think he was at least being sincere if he'd have said something similar after the referendum.... instead he took part in the Bojo enabling project.
Lastly, this 'make the best of it' appeal has always and always will be utter b*llocks. I've yet to meet anyone who plans to impoverish themselves in a sulk over Brexit.
Post edited at 15:30
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In reply to NERD:
> Although I'd like to have a pint with him I've never voted for his lot and have no intention of doing so.
I'd like to pour a pint over his head; the bastard!
In reply to Mike Stretford:
the Wurst of it is that he is in no small part responsible for discontent with the EU by not exercising the UK's right to delay freedom of movement (unlike most other existing members) at the time of enlargement under his sofa-reign. The feelings arising from the results of that decree have been exploited and could have been decisive in losing our status.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
> Personally, I'm wondering when they'll find out my dad was a refugee and I get a knock on the door in the small hours.
What a piece of insincere nonsense. I'm sure you don't mean it so why bother posting it?
> How statesmanlike...
Well he did have aspirations of being the EU president one day .......
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
I don’t make any of the claims you list, just what I think is a valid equal but opposite opinion, as a comment on your post. You need to calm down and get a life, or the future for you post BREXIT will be full of hand wringing, keyboard hammering, foot stamping angst. I imagine you would want BREXIT to fail, just to prove yourself right.
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In reply to Philb1950:
> I imagine you would want BREXIT to fail, just to prove yourself right.
I would be delighted to seeBrexit fail. That is just one of many reasons.
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In reply to Philb1950:
> I imagine you would want BREXIT to fail, just to prove yourself right.
What do you mean by fail? Even some of those who think it will be a success have put rather long timelines around when the benefits will be seen.
Plus, lets face it, the brexiteers have been wanting the EU to fail for years and, in some cases such as Farage, failed to do their jobs properly to try and ensure that was the case. Why shouldnt some who disagree with their viewpoint not agree with their strategy?
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In reply to Philb1950:
> I don’t make any of the claims you list, just what I think is a valid equal but opposite opinion, as a comment on your post. You need to calm down and get a life, or the future for you post BREXIT will be full of hand wringing, keyboard hammering, foot stamping angst. I imagine you would want BREXIT to fail, just to prove yourself right.
Brexit is by definition a failure; failure to work in partnership and in peace with other nations.
Everything about it disgusts me. I cannot bear to look at Farage and Johnson. The sound of their voices makes me gyp.
I'll get a life by attempting to ignore it, but I can make no sense of "Get behind Britain/ Make Brexit work". The whole bluidy project is entirely about smashing something up.
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In reply to Pete Pozman:
A very unpleasant genie is out of the bottle now, too, with printed notices being put up in a tower block telling people that only English will be tolerated now that Brexit has happened.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-51341735
.................
"Happy Brexit Day" notices telling residents "we do not tolerate" people speaking languages other than English have been posted at a block of flats.
A resident of Winchester Tower in Norwich first spotted them at 06:00 GMT on Friday, as first reported in the Huffington Post.
The man, who does not want to be named, has reported the signs - which he said were on every floor - to the police.
He said: "It's heartbreaking that someone could think like this."
The signs say: "We finally have our great country back... we do not tolerate people speaking other languages than English in the flats."
They go on to say "we are now our own country again" and the "Queens [sic] English is the spoken tongue here".
Image captionThe block of flats is owned by Norwich City Council and is for tenants over the age of 55
The resident said he discovered the first sign as he was heading out of the block in Vauxhall Street on Friday morning, and returned to his own floor where he spotted the second notice.
He alerted the caretaker, who removed the signs, and a local councillor.
The caretaker told him the notices were stuck on the fire doors on all 15 floors of the Norwich City Council block of flats for tenants who are over the age of 55.
County councillor Emma Corlett advised the resident to report the notices as a hate crime and she also contacted her neighbourhood police team.
She said: "It's a really quiet block of flats with a good sense of community spirit and a lot of people have lived there for a long time."
The resident said: "It's heartbreaking not only for those it's directed at but also for the person posting it."
Norfolk Police have been contacted for a comment.
.................
Post edited at 13:49
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In reply to Philb1950:
> I imagine you would want BREXIT to fail, just to prove yourself right.
Why should I want Brexit to "succeed"? (In inverted commas because the goal of the project has never been defined.) My wanting Brexit to succeed is not going to make it a success. Nor will "getting behind Brexit" to make a success of it be the great unifying rally cry to bring the country together that Brexiters seem to think it will be.
Of course I don't want the economy to tank, or the UK to break apart, and I'm certainly not going to attempt to bring about those things to make a point. But those things are a real possibility, and if they do come to pass, I'm not going to get tired of reminding people that they're a consequence of Brexit. Because the government and the right wing press aren't going to be quick to make that link.
From a personal point of view, opposition to Brexit and everything it represents are now a central part of my identity. To support it in any way would wreck my credibility, to the possible detriment of my personal relationships and possible career chances.
I will also say - for a few months following the referendum, I grudgingly accepted that Brexit should happen, and hoped the government would push for a soft Brexit. But the behaviour and rhetoric of the government and the right wing press, combined with the gradual revelation of just how utterly corrupt the referendum was, have turned me into the hardcore remainer I am today.
Post edited at 15:43
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Got one for my father who voted to remain and became a passionate leaver because he believed the vote should be respected to retain integrity of the democratic system. There is nothing less tasteful in this tea towel than paying for a bloke to shout Stop Brexit through a megaphone every time there's an interview or speech in the houses of parliament.
I hope that this tea towel offends boring and obsessed rejoiners to the same extent the antics of the people's vote campaign offended democracy and many leavers. Suck it up buttercup and get on with your life there's more important things than tea towels, like the environment, climate change and national trade policy. All of these you could make a positive difference on and if you can't see a positive way to do this without the EU then you're simply not applying your brain enough.
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In reply to JohnBson:
Accepting the result of the referendum without question is how we allow democracy to wither and die. Democracy is rather more complex than just a vote one day, and if we don't recognise that and fight for a meaningful democracy then we deserve to lose it. There is nothing remotely democratic about our departure from the EU.
Post edited at 16:12
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In reply to Trevers:
More bollocks rejoiner talk. Referendum (Peoples vote 1), motion passed, two elected governments (Pv 2 and 3) tried to implement it. Yes definitely more complex than a single day and a single result. Second one succeeded after winning a majority. Democracy at its essence.
You may disagree with the result. It's your democratic right to do so. However our democracy can still be meaningful even if you don't agree with the outcome. I worry what your 'meaningful' democracy looks like, if the EU is your idea of democratic then I judge that you would simply be happy with unelected 'educated' elites ruling from afar by dictat. A liberal shamocracy. Maybe this suits you because of your own vested interests however not me pal.
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In reply to JohnBson:
It's ironic that you recommended people here apply their brains more when you appear not to have done so at all. The democratic deficit in the referendum is extremely well documented. If you're unaware of it by now, then it's not worth my time trying to educate you. It's clear you only consider democracy meaningful because you won. Enjoy figuring out what you won.
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In reply to JohnBson:
> More bollocks rejoiner talk. Referendum (Peoples vote 1), motion passed, two elected governments (Pv 2 and 3) tried to implement it. Yes definitely more complex than a single day and a single result. Second one succeeded after winning a majority. Democracy at its essence.
> You may disagree with the result. It's your democratic right to do so. However our democracy can still be meaningful even if you don't agree with the outcome. I worry what your 'meaningful' democracy looks like, if the EU is your idea of democratic then I judge that you would simply be happy with unelected 'educated' elites ruling from afar by dictat. A liberal shamocracy. Maybe this suits you because of your own vested interests however not me pal.
The Tory "bastards", the BNP, UKIP, or whatever "political party" Farage conjured up to further his dream of significance, Thomas Mair et al never respected the "will of the people" when we first voted to stay in the European Project. They didn't roll over, why should remainers? Brexit and Brexit Britain belongs to you not me. You own it. This is not my country it's yours. It's up to you to make Brexit a great success. Don't blame us if the UK becomes a teeny tiny American mini-me. I don't want that, you voted for it. You can have it.
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In reply to JohnBson:
Speaking as someone who was very happy to be part of the 66% who said remain in 1975 I find the idea of a closely split vote from a badly conceived and constitutionally naive and inept, almost stupidly negligent, implementation of a constitutional referendum that arose out of Tory party politics (mainly self-seeking) being used to overturn the sensible 66% I think you are talking BOLLOCKS!
I'm not usually one to be so rude but as your attitude is that I should roll over and see my wife's status here and confidence in her future seriously threatened by these bastards stinks
And that is before I even consider that that lot of bastards has stripped me of my European status proudly gained in 73 (after years of anticipation, and valued ever since.
Post edited at 13:57
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In reply to wercat:
> I'm not usually one to be so rude but as your attitude is that I should roll over and see my wife's status here and confidence in her future seriously threatened by these bastards stinks
His attitude is one that seems to be sadly common among many of the more vocal leavers (not on UKC I hasten to add), and one which has been expressed and encouraged by many MPs and "journalists". It's the attitude that winning is the only thing that matters and to hell with the consequences, so long as he's able to rub the other side's (liberals, remainers, leftists, middle class, SJWs, whatever) collective face in it.
If you attempt to engage in a meaningful discussion and ask for a logical justification of their position, it's labelled as condescension. Reasoned arguments that there should have been a second referendum are treated likewise.
And then after all that, they expect to receive loser's consent.
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In reply to JohnBson:
The EU is arguably more democratic than the UK:
https://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2018/10/21/which-is-more-democratic-uk-or-...
I don't suppose facts will have any influence of course...
Post edited at 22:14
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In reply to wercat:
For the fans of the tea towel, here is the Arch-idiot in action again today. Again, at one level it's very funny, but at another, very scary. He's just so very mad. Yet some poor souls get turned on by it.
https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1224362794960769025
Again, it's so hard to believe that it's not a very cleverly done spoof. If only.
In case people think it is a spoof, here's the whole speech from his Downing Street web site: https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1BdGYQlwnXQGX
Post edited at 22:31
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
He's the prime minister that slightly under half of this country deserve.
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In reply to Trevers:
Yes, deeply depressing. Never seen anything remotely like it before in my country. And I'm now 70.
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In reply to Mike Stretford:
> Lastly, this 'make the best of it' appeal has always and always will be utter b*llocks. I've yet to meet anyone who plans to impoverish themselves in a sulk over Brexit.
I wish I could like this bit a 1000 times.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> Yes, deeply depressing. Never seen anything remotely like it before in my country. And I'm now 70.
It will pass. And Johnson won't remain popular for long. History won't be kind to him.
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In reply to JohnBson:
You think you are more clever than you are. Sort out your command of basic English and then people might start to respect you at a level that your passion clearly warrants
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In reply to JohnBson:
> I worry what your 'meaningful' democracy looks like, if the EU is your idea of democratic then I judge that you would simply be happy with unelected 'educated' elites ruling from afar by dictat.
The EU, in its current state is as democratic (or undemocratic) as the UK. If they continue to integrate they will probably become more democratic than the UK.
The only position any of us vote for is that of our local MP, same goes for the EU. 'Unelected educated elites', you mean like Dominic Cummings?
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In reply to Mike Stretford:
Without reference to any particular posters on this thread, it really is hard sometimes to remind oneself that in spite of all the evidence leavers cannot by the law of averages *all* be dishonest, nasty and thick, isn’t it?
Personally I shall be delighted for Brexit to fail, (whatever that means), representing as it does all the most contemptible values in life. I will also be reasonably content if the UK economy suffers as a result - in particular I shall certainly make a point of raising a glass when Nissan close their factory in Sunderland.
jcm
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I'm guessing that's because you're doing well enough financially not to suffer too much if the economy tanks.
I thought John Major seemed to be pretty on point, when he spoke of the working classes who'd voted for Brexit being those hardest hit in an economic down turn.
Any discontent which results from that probably won't take long to morph into anger, and then scapegoating/hatred too...
Post edited at 14:13
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> Personally I shall be delighted for Brexit to fail, (whatever that means), representing as it does all the most contemptible values in life. I will also be reasonably content if the UK economy suffers as a result - in particular I shall certainly make a point of raising a glass when Nissan close their factory in Sunderland.
I assume that is some tongue in cheek joke as no one would be so bitter and twisted to wish that just to prove a point.
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In reply to FactorXXX:
Why ever not? It’s a zero sum game - the jobs will go somewhere which deserves it more, probably in Eastern Europe. Why shouldn’t I celebrate that? The locals won’t mind after all; they voted for it to happen.
jcm
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> Why ever not? It’s a zero sum game...
If it transpires that the good burghers of Sunderland have voted themselves out of a job, only for those jobs to be relocated to China, then they will have actually engaged in a dim sum game.
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> Why ever not? It’s a zero sum game - the jobs will go somewhere which deserves it more, probably in Eastern Europe. Why shouldn’t I celebrate that? The locals won’t mind after all; they voted for it to happen.
> jcm
Of course they'll mind. One might think it was a stupid thing to vote for, but to hold them in contempt - they'll still have mortgages to pay and families to feed whatever one thinks of their choice.
Buddhists might put it as them being caught up in the cycle of suffering which is life meaning they deserve compassion, but that may seem a bit abstract....
Post edited at 15:44
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
There is no evidence that Nissan workers mostly voted leave but an anonymous Nissan worker makes good points here on why many (if not most) did and the linked issues in the wider community:
https://www.quora.com/Why-would-Nissan-Sunderland-workers-vote-overwhelming...
You will probably be right on the effect of brexit on the NE but it's no cause for celebrating, that when the UK catches a cold parts of the poorer areas of the north of England end up on life support.
I'm very disappointed in the leave vote and the Boris majority but those northern working class voters lived in a bubble and had suffered for decades with too little major help from politicians or hardly anyone else other than a few shining lights like Nissan (one of the most productive factories in the EU); their votes were almost inevitable. Hence, my main anger is with the "elites" who let it happen... the well educated middle classes, the progressive political parties (outside Scotland) and the organisations that represent them, and the media as a whole; all completely failed to get their act together in a clever and practical way. Also the tories who let this dangerous child take over their party and kick out their best voices from the centre right in the process.
Despite knowing that most stupid racists would have voted Leave (if they got out of bed on time) the idea that some intelligent remainers feel it's OK to label a huge section of our population as stupid and likely racist, is more scary to me than brexit itself. Until the intelligent people, who voted remain and for progressive parties, recognise there is life outside their bubbles (and the need to work together... some liberals and socialists seem to hate each other more than the most reactionary tory party since WW2), the popularists, who don't deserve from the quality of their arguments to even be above 10% in UK polls, will always have a much better chance of winning again than they deserve. The progressive vote had a 6% majority in the UK, so those accused of being stupid knew how to vote to achieve their ends, but way too many clever progressives seemed oblivious and gifted the obviously dangerous Boris a majority of 80 and a remit to do pretty much what he wants.
Post edited at 15:54
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In reply to Offwidth:
You don’t actually say what “the intelligent people, who voted remain and for progressive parties” should DO to help those who voted Leave. You don’t say how they should “get their act together in a clever and practical way.” What you’re asking for seems almost as nebulous at the mantra “Get behind Brexit”. How? I mean, how exactly? The best thing obviously would be for industry {to try and move to the north, and other deprived areas}, but many/most of us who voted Remain are not industrialists. I like to think I helped a bit by moving from London to the East Midlands 25 years ago, but it's hardly a deprived area. (The wobbly brackets, btw, is a device I use as a writer for a phrase or idea that needs much further work.)
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In reply to krikoman:
> Mugs are £15 by the way!!
Like we need more Brexit mugs - 17.4 million of them already!
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In reply to Timmd:
People in Romania have families to feed too. They need the work just as much as people in Sunderland, and I’d rather the former had it than the latter.
It’s not a matter of contempt. One group has harmed me and the interests of the world; the other hasn’t. I prefer the former to prosper rather than the latter.
jcm
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Do you know that all or even most Nissan workers voted for Brexit?
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In reply to Offwidth:
Nonsense. In global terms, they’ve been enormously privileged for decades. That privilege came to an end as the world turned. They chose stupidly to increase the damage to the benefit of others who have acted better than they have. When those others benefit at the expense of people in Sunderland, why shouldn’t I be pleased? Romania has suffered far, far worse and deserves economic growth much, much more.
jcm
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In reply to Offwidth:
> The progressive vote had a 6% majority in the UK, so those accused of being stupid knew how to vote to achieve their ends, but way too many clever progressives seemed oblivious and gifted the obviously dangerous Boris a majority of 80 and a remit to do pretty much what he wants.
You can't blame the electorate for the failure of our electoral system, it's carefully designed and refined to do what it did by those who benefited most from it last time around. Madness but the short term self interest which characterises our politics renders it, like many of our nation's ills essentially unfixable.
jk
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In reply to Neil Williams:
I think there was a survey that suggested it. But Sunderland as a whole did, obviously.
It didn’t, by the way, take Brexit to persuade me that many of my fellow citizens were thick and racist. The evidence for that has been overwhelming for a long time.
jcm
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In reply to Offwidth:
> Despite knowing that most stupid racists would have voted Leave (if they got out of bed on time) the idea that some intelligent remainers feel it's OK to label a huge section of our population as stupid and likely racist, is more scary to me than brexit itself.
It's hard to know what Brexit will entail, but I've been disquieted by how some (generally decent and good hearted) friends of mine on facebook have been putting Leave voters into boxes marked racist/stupid/anti Europe - anything negative and being against people who are different, which won't always be the case.
Post edited at 16:45
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> People in Romania have families to feed too. They need the work just as much as people in Sunderland, and I’d rather the former had it than the latter.
> It’s not a matter of contempt. One group has harmed me and the interests of the world; the other hasn’t. I prefer the former to prosper rather than the latter.
> jcm
Fair enough and understood, that it isn't about contempt.
Post edited at 16:47
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> It didn’t, by the way, take Brexit to persuade me that many of my fellow citizens were thick and racist.
As opposed to clever and bigoted?
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In reply to FactorXXX:
In the 2010 election over half a million people voted for the BNP, an explicitly ethno-nationalist party.
What do you think I should think of those people?
jcm
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Cumbria is like Romania compared to the level of development in the NE. Going over there for the day is like going into the modern world. BBC Look North is constantly moaning about under investment but they never seem to point out how little goes to Cumbria.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> In the 2010 election over half a million people voted for the BNP, an explicitly ethno-nationalist party.
> What do you think I should think of those people?
> jcm
I'm just checking that you're not placing Brexit voters and BNP voters into the same box? All BNP voters would likely have voted Brexit, but the inverse won't apply. The people I know of with Brexit leanings can't stand the likes of the BNP.
A well traveled relative with friends of other races recently pondered that the EU is rather right wing economically speaking, and that politics is back to front in the UK with the left leaning parties being in favour of Remain. they didn't get round to voting for Brexit in the end, but it's a different perspective to the 'Brexit voters are insular narrow minded and racist' one.
Post edited at 18:14
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
...Which leaves 46.5 million who didn't. Not a bad percentage.
In reply to wercat:
>... BBC Look North is constantly moaning about under investment but they never seem to point out how little goes to Cumbria.
God knows that I've tried to do my bit by buying one of those sets of Wainwright guide books... Okay, so I'll admit that it was discounted on Amazon, but it's a start?
In future, I'll endeavour to eat more Cumberland sausages, Kendal Mint Cake, and Grasmere Gingerbread. I'll wash the lot down with gallons of Jennings.
Deal?
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
> ...Which leaves 46.5 million who didn't. Not a bad percentage.
Indeed. It can be human nature to extrapolate and generalise about the rest of humanity, which is possibly what John Cox is doing. It's served us well as a trait to do with wild animals and different kinds of food, but it falls down a little when pondering humanity or countries en mass.
Post edited at 18:41
In reply to Timmd:
I was specifically defending the observation that it hadn’t taken Brexit to make it obvious that many of my fellow citizens were racist and thick. I think nearly 600,000 (and more in European and local elections) counts as ‘many’, especially considering that there will be many who are both racist and thick (Mark Francois for instance), who still didn’t vote for the BNP.
jcm
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously: There's a certain bone headedness to racism I would agree. I don't have a problem with 'thick' people, being somewhere in the middle of the intelligence spectrum - I don't see how I can.
Post edited at 19:08
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
You blamed the people of Sunderland... the vote Leave majority was more than the BNP best vote there. I agree BNP votes are stupid or racist but some might not be both.
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In reply to jkarran:
I'm not really blaming the electorate, I'm more mainly blaming some progressives for making rude simplistic accusations about the northern working class electorate, when to a bigger extent more 'fault of that type' lies with well educated progressives. The likes of Labour moderate Vernon Coaker lost in Gedling, next door to me, by 679 votes when well over 3000 voted Lib Dem or Green. He was a good MP and ex-minister. I listed details on 40 seats (pretty much the tory majority) on the other channel, where it was possible for a progressive to have won with a reasonable margin (allowing for party die-hards). The progressive vote percentage was pretty much what I expected, Brexit a couple of percent down but the low level of progressive tactical voting in most seats was a big surprise to me. Those who wanted electoral reform missed a perfect opportunity, as it would almost certainly have been a fixed bargaining chip to support a Labour minority government (a government where Corbyn's power would have been neutered even if he survived to lead).
Post edited at 21:07
In reply to Clauso:
keep up the good work!
In reply to wercat:
Darren has been doing this for decades now.... we need to think about some kind of UKC gong (owl shaped).
I do think Cumbria is an outlier for the north of England: mostly very wealthy (with crazy house prices) with a few economically blighted towns on the edges.
In reply to FactorXXX:
> As opposed to clever and bigoted?
What would you call these bunch of enlightened people?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10875581/racist-happy-brexit-day-residents-sp...
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In reply
Those seats that might have gone differently with varying degrees of progressive tactical voting on the actual progressive vote numbers (quite a few more were mathematically possible but unrealistic):
High Peak... Ruth George was a supporter of interests in common with the BMC. Lost by under 600 votes with nearly 4000 voting Lib Dem and Green.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Peak_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Carshalton and Wallington... a good Lib Dem MP, lost by just over 600. Labour polled over 6000.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carshalton_and_Wallington_(UK_Parliament_co...
Gedling and Vernon Coaker as before:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gedling_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Bury North. Labour lost by only just over a hundred with over 2000 voting Lib Dem or Green.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bury_North_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Heywood and Middleton.. Jim Callahan's old seat... Labour lost by under 700 Lib Dems and Greens over 3000
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heywood_and_Middleton_(UK_Parliament_consti...
Kensington..... Labour lost by 150 with Sam Grimah over 9000... genuine 3 way seat with misleading local polling so forgivable.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Wimbledon another 3 way: Lib Dems lost by just over 600 with Labour over 12000
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimbledon_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Blyth Valley... Labour lost... just over 700 majority, over 3000 voted Lib Dem or Green.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blyth_Valley_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Bolton NE... Labour lost by under 400 with over two and a half thousand voting Lib Dem or Green
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolton_North_East_(UK_Parliament_constituen...
Bury South.. Labour lost by just over 400 with 3000 voting Lib Dems or Greens (and the old Labour MP who stood as Independent getting just over a thousand).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bury_South_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Moray SNP lost by just over 500. Well over 4000 voted Labour or Lib Dem
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moray_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
West Aberdeenshire: majority under 900, SNP lost, over 8000 voted Lib Dem or Labour
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Aberdeenshire_and_Kincardine_(UK_Parli...
Ynys Môn another genuine 3 way seat.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynys_Môn_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watford_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrington_South_(UK_Parliament_constituenc...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_of_London_and_Westminster_(UK_Parlia...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finchley_and_Golders_Green_(UK_Parliament_c...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chipping_Barnet_(UK_Parliament_constituency...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Cambridgeshire_(UK_Parliament_constit...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgend_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southport_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheadle_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truro_and_Falmouth_(UK_Parliament_constitue...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clwyd_South_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wycombe_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_West_Durham_(UK_Parliament_constituen...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewsbury_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_North_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheltenham_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chingford_and_Woodford_Green_(UK_Parliament...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnley_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Northfield_(UK_Parliament_consti...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildford_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchin_and_Harpenden_(UK_Parliament_consti...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrexham_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_West_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazel_Grove_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hendon_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Electoral Calculus provide a data file for those who want to play with the numbers.
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/electdata_2019.txt
Post edited at 10:58
In reply to Offwidth:
I got in arguments with so many remainers before the election over voting intentions. A common one was Lib Dem voters claiming that a vote for Labour was a vote for Brexit, who happened to be voting in Lab/Con marginals. I tried pointing out that a Lib Dem vote was really a Con vote, but it seemed the purity of their remainer credentials were more important.
I tactically canvassed with both Labour and Lib Dem candidates in neighbouring local marginals. There's no love lost between them. It's excrutiating.
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In reply to Trevers:
I'm really greatful for those like you that tried. My frustration with the well educated and well informed who did this was always going to be higher than with those northern working class who voted tory. With FPTP, progressives not voting for the progressive favorite (in a close race lost) were defacto voting for a Boris government.
I used a risk-consequence argument, as we operate this as climbers, and won a few people over. The consequences of JC and Boris with a genuine working majority to put through their ideas were both serious for me and most centrist voters. The risk of Boris getting in this position was massively higher. Even with a Labour majority it would have needed to have been approaching 50 for the moderate wing of Labour to not block some of the crazier stuff JC wanted (a majority that was simply impossible given the polls). Boris in contrast had gutted the party of its leading wets and only needed a majority of around 10. I also pointed out the likely benefits of a minority government to the social liberal minded (electoral reform, soft or no brexit, etc)
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In reply to Trevers:
I'm a Lib Dem member, yet voted for Labour in what is a hopelessly Tory constituency (Mid Derbyshire) with the Lib Dems traditionally almost nowhere. I didn't want to waste my vote. Quite a few of my friends did the same. In the event, Pauline Latham (ERG, though amazingly many/most constituents don't realise it - don't even know what it means, because she is a supremely dishonest arch-pretender playing as a fluffy, moderate small-c conservative) did very badly: in the context of a national swing to the Conservatives of about 8%, she got 0.02%.
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> In the 2010 election over half a million people voted for the BNP, an explicitly ethno-nationalist party.
> What do you think I should think of those people?
I think that it's half a million people that have unpleasant politics that are indeed probably racist. Some of those will be thick and some won't.
Anyway, my comment was more aimed at your bigotry which you seem to think is perfectly acceptable because of your assumed superior intellect.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
One of the great 'what ifs' of the last election was if there had been more clarity from Remain candidates.
In our own constituency (Cardiff North) our sitting Labour MP sent leaflets that a) conspicuously didn't mention Corbyn at all, and b) unambiguously supported a 2nd vote. She won with a significantly increased majority. I imagine there's a few unemployed MPS from the Midlands and the North who are wondering whether they should have done the same.
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In reply to Offwidth:
It looks as if it is wealthy when you look at property prices. It is a very divided countywith a lot of people struggling (below the surface that the leisure and hospitality industries put on the county). A GP told us "all very well to live here as long as you don't get sick".
In reply to FactorXXX:
I might reply that you seem to consider that accusing people of bigotry, without either evidence or saying what you mean, is acceptable because you justifiably consider yourself a moron.
jcm
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> I might reply that you seem to consider that accusing people of bigotry, without either evidence or saying what you mean, is acceptable because you justifiably consider yourself a moron.
Wishing financial hardship on people based purely on their geographic location sounds pretty bigoted to me.
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In reply to Trevers:
You can predict the future can you? It looks as if the Tories will be in power for probably two terms at least given the Corbynista rabble in opposition, plenty of time to come good. What you are forgetting is that left wing Labour have not won an election since 1979 with Jim Callaghan and he,s hardly to the left.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I just had the brainwave of putting "got brexit done" into the eBay search.
Try it, but careful of your blood pressure .
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I find myself sadly depressed by unpleasant remarks of some correspondents regarding intellect or lack thereof, ditto bigotry, racism etc. All those wonderful labels tossed about willy nilly by those without an argument to their name. And even if you had an argument my response has to be ‘so what?’ Those of us who chose not to be ruled by the likes of the arch bigot and super stater Verhoftwat seem to have prevailed and all the wailing and whining in the world will not change it, at least not in the short to medium term so perhaps some folk should manage their ire and get over themselves. JCM you have problems. I should seek help.
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In reply to Stone Idle:
> All those wonderful labels tossed about willy nilly by those without an argument to their name.
I have plenty of arguments as to why EU membership is the best course of action and why a second referendum was the only democratic way of settling this. But in 4 years, I haven't heard a single tangible benefit of leaving the EU that stands up to any scrutiny when held up to reality. That goes a long way to explaining why I am so furiously angry about all of this.
> Those of us who chose not to be ruled by the likes of the arch bigot and super stater Verhoftwat seem to have prevailed
Super-stater, sure. Arch bigot? That's the first time I've seen him accused of bigotry.
> all the wailing and whining in the world will not change it, at least not in the short to medium term so perhaps some folk should manage their ire and get over themselves.
You're asking people to "get over" the damage to their lives, livelihoods and futures that's been rendered for no discernible purpose.
> JCM you have problems. I should seek help.
His contributions have not been helpful but I can empathise with his anger.
Post edited at 10:53
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In reply to FactorXXX:
Oh I see, you just don’t know what the word means. That accounts for it.
And tell me, when our Prime Minister, dishonestly no doubt, trumpets some contract won by our great British firms in competition with some European rival, will you consider that is ‘bigotry’ also?
jcm
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> Oh I see, you just don’t know what the word means. That accounts for it.
Bigot: a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.
You hate people that voted Brexit so much, that you not only wish them harm in an extremely callous fashion, but anyone who lives in the same location as them.
Sounds pretty bigoted to me.
If you want, you can replace bigot with nasty and vindictive if that makes you feel better.
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In reply to FactorXXX:
I don’t know about hating them. Hate the sin and love the sinner, and all that. I think they were yielding to nasty impulses we all have to some degree, certainly (finding it amusing that foreigners have funny names which grown men can alter to include obscenities in English, for instance). And presumably therefore they are nastier than the average; that’s certainly how they appear.
But sure, the better the EU does economically until we rejoin, and the worse the UK does, the better I’ll be pleased. If that damages Brexit voters more than the rest, better still. It’s not just Sunderland; I’d love it if Rees-Mogg’s hedge funds crashed and burned; it just seems less likely to happen.
jcm
Post edited at 13:09
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> I’d love it if Rees-Mogg’s hedge funds crashed and burned; it just seems less likely to happen.
Rees-Mogg penniless and destitute is a sight that would warm the cockles of my heart. I don't wish economic hardship on the good folk of Sunderland, however, whichever way they voted.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
They nearly had a lot more to celebrate -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/northern_ireland
The second thing I said to my wife on the horrid morning of hearing the news in 2016 was "That'll mean trouble in Ireland" after I'd started with "That'll be Scotland independent then".
Both issues were easily forseeable as consequences of those who made the absolutely shite decision to Leave and JC is definitely right if he is implying that it is more just for tha consequences to be visited on those responsible rather than those who didn't vote for it. Restorative Justice in action that would be.
Post edited at 18:22
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