UKH

Could Boris be looking to circumvent EU extension, even if circumstances demand it to be applied to prevent a crash out no deal bexit.?

Well, MPs think so.
 Hence it seems no confidence vote {, to install a temporary short term government to apply Parliamentary  law } is likely next week.

Who should lead it? It is a figurehead, short term, position.

Parliamentary majorities will rule the day but who is neutral enough?

Corbyn's studied position of neutrality at conference set him up for this.

But will the general perception of neutrality be better served by someone else as figurehead?

He almost certainly will be looking to subvert; for a temporary "neutral" leader, how about one of the experienced ones who doesnt intend to stand again. Or (my favourite), the one who has had to display neutraity as part of his job for the last 10 years, John Bercow.

If any MP is serious about stopping brexit by getting an extention then a new referendum then they must go with JC as a temporary leader during that time or we will get brexit.

And it must be noted this is just a temporary position to stop a no deal and get an extension. 

"subversion" is probably not an option because Parliamentary majorities have to "govern" decisions. It is a very hung Parliament so ideas will flow from them putting forward proposals to be passed by a Parliamentary majority..There is a brake in place there because of the make-up of Parliament.

By law { passed at same time as Benn's Law} May's Withdrawal Agreement has to come back to Parliament for discussion. It is the only signed deal at the moment.

My only contention with no confidence at the moment is that the "secret "proposals by Boris have not been scrutinised by Parliament as to their workability. I think Parliament should challenge Boris to reveal the proposals and reveal his  progress with EU before  a no confidence vote in the interests of fairness and openness.

However, I think I now agree with the timing, What seems to compel a quick no confidence vote { which normally I would have considered preemptive of Oct 9 EU meeting}  is the utterly shocking attempt to include"anger" as a policy of Leavers { created by Boris and his cronies and which I don't actually attribute to Leavers in general} as an excuse to abuse the emergency laws meant for war which allow a government to rule without Parliamentary scrutiny but  act alone. That fear alone makes me feel a temporay government would be better- lack of trust in the current one.

Ken Clarke.

Father of the house, MP since 1970, over 20 years as a minister, clear that he doesn't want to stand for another full term but sacked by the party he's stood for for 50 years for following his convictions. 

And above all, a restrained logical attitude when surrounded by showboating and rhetoric from the likes of Boris and Farage. 

Plus... Added bonus...  There's already a Spitting Image puppet of Ken Clarke from the 1980s!

It's gotta be Ken Clarke.

Please, please let it be Ken Clarke.

Or, with the latest cyber-technology, could we exhume Paddy Ashdown?

The trouble with JC is that even most labour voters hate his guts.

David Attenborough.

I heard he was dying from pretty robust sources... apparently he has become blue and big and if earth is dying so he is!

David Bellamy

A magic 8 ball could de a better job than our current government, that includes the opposition as well. 

My inclination is Ken Clarke.

The down side of Corbyn is that, although Parliament is in control, the perception of  political gain has to be avoided in this particularly  nuanced debate with either possibly a referendum or GE to be decided upon.

Corbyn is a strong participant for political power. 

Corbyn has  a history of calling a GE and renegotiating the deal to be truly accepted by Parliament as the person who will not further inflame the situation-   however erroneous , claims of "coup" and unmandated political gain should be avoided in this short time to October 31st imo.

Parliament can act but the leader should be a conduit for Parliament at the moment when time is short.

The run up to GEs are the place for strong political figures to shine , not caretaker governments.

Where is your evidence for this?

Jon may be exaggerating a little, but poll evidence suggests he isn't popular with a majority of Labour voters, eg. here:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-conference-jere...

But even for Corbyn's supporters, why does it have to be him? If it is really a short term, interim government what's stopping JC stepping aside? 

Anecdotally, pretty much everyone I hang out with is a labour voter. And pretty much all of them think Corbyn is a f*cking idiot.

Look on UKC. Left-leaning generally, and it's basically only Pefa and Krikoman that don't think he's a f*cking idiot. 

I personally agree with the vast majority of his policies. He's just the most incompetent and least electable leader I've ever seen. It doesn't matter if you think that's just unfair media bias - that's just the Trump "fake news" argument. If you have the required skill set to lead the country, then by definition, you're not getting shafted in the media day in day out (if you feature at all).

Isn't the question, "why should it be anyone else"?

Surely the leader of the opposition is the obvious choice and there have to be excellent reasons for not choosing him.

And there are. 

If it is just such a short term event, why don't everyone put their egos etc etc aside and get on with the job?
Who gives a flying f*ck who the interim leader is, get rid of this poison that is the Tories, NOW!

The problem for the expelled Tory rebels is the Meatloaf paradox. They will do anything to stop a no deal Brexit, but they can’t do that! 

First rule of politics; learn to count.

Would you care to expand on that. After all the temporary OM would be there for the sole purpose of avoiding a No Deal Brexit. Why get into a lather about a temporary administration being led by the obvious candidate?

He’s hardly more trustworthy than Johnson. Clark or similar, who is retiring would reliably call an election and stand down.

Ideally the interim leader should be someone who has no aspirations to be pm afterwards. Has respect from all parties etc. 

Can't see the lib dems or any of those who've left the Tories backing Corbyn. They say it's because he's a marxist and therefore a threat to the country. Of course they all know if he's PM for a few weeks ith nowhere close to a majority he's no chance of pushing any left wing legislation through, but they're worried he'll look like a prime minister in the eyes of the electorate and so get more votes in the election. 

Half his own party don't even want to follow him, never mind anyone else. 

Margaret Beckett

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-29/margaret-beckett-emerging-as-favourite-...

It seems a bit silly to me to replace one complete loser who can't command the confidence of the House with...another complete loser who can't command the confidence of the House.

As has been said already, it would be far better to have someone who isn't thought of by about half of the public as a "communist threat" or whatever bollox they believe, and rather, someone who was demonstrably, unequivocally in place only to navigate the country out of the maelstrom of doom. So, not someone who's trying to get elected as PM to advance a radical agenda of reform of pretty much everything they can. That person is not appropriate because, as Swinson pointed out quite realistically, they don't have the support of the House, ,so it's not going to happen. And he's loathed in the country. It's a really terribly idea, even if it's only temporary. 

See it from the perspective of some normal people who think Corbyn is a terrorist sympathising, Marxist Muslim hell bent on tearing down their freedom to...sing God Save The Queen or evade tax or whatever - I mean that might sound like you'd have to be thick as shite to believe it, but our own Postmanpat thinks exactly that, and he's an intelligent guy with a proper job, I think. It might be bollox, but this disqualifies Corbyn as a viable interim PM.

How do you stop an interim leader, who ever this is, from being stuck with the job for the rest of the 5-years.  The parliament act requires a large majority and no confidence + 1.  This plan is predicated on everyone playing ball.  Who’s to say the remaining tries won’t be so cheesed off they do something really mad!

I f*cking hate Margaret Beckett.

So another endorsement then.....

An interim unity government is increasingly looking like the only way out of the mess. If it does the job well, and it needs to, its leader will gain kudos as a prospective longer term PM. So it can't be anyone who would want the job long term or the other opposition parties just won't support. I think that counts out not just Corbyn but also Starmer, Rudd, Grieve, Cooper and Benn, most of whom have been mentioned. It's really only the oldies who could do it: Clarke, Beckett or Harman. I think we may know by the end of this week if it's a goer. It's going to require quite a bit of flexibility on all sides.

If it works I would hope a good many non-expelled Tories would support it, as well as those that lost the whip. It's probably wishful thinking but I'm looking forward to seeing a Boris rump of no more than 200 ERG sympathisers, plus the DUP, rattling around humiliated on the opposition benches.

Martin

I am another for Ken Clarke, or similar elder statesman.

Some might argue that Jeremy Corbyn is an "elder statesman", I fear he is only 50% of that. 

That's not how it works. For the current government to be replaced by another one, the other Government would have to be able to command a majority. That's how the fixed term parliament act works. If no one can command a majority a fortnight after a no confidence vote then there must be a GE. On the other hand if someone can, they get to govern.

That also means that neither Jeremy in charge of an interim government nor anyone else could then simply refuse to call another GE because if they started taking the piss there would be another vote of no confidence which they'd lose.

Fair point.

Which is why JC won't. But I'm pointing out not only that he won't - he won't have the support of the House (the Meatloaf paradox - so well put!) - he also *shouldn't*, because he's loathed so much by so much of the country.

Loathed? I wouldn't put it as strongly as that. After all a third of the electorate will currently vote for a Labour government.

Whatever, there won't be a VONC unless the anti no deal parties have agreed who would be in an interim government. I think the main problem would be with the Tory rebels who would be ending their political careers if they supported a government led by Jeremy.

This would spell the end of the Conservative party.

Probably something that many would like to see but possibly not many Conservative MPs.

I can see GMEX from my roof.
I've got my secure ladders in place to get a solid footing to set off the old rocket launcher in a certain direction.

Just repairing a gaping hole in my roof, guv.

Ssssssh - you never know who is listening.

Pefa's given me clearance with Moscow, I'm safe.

😀

There's a case for saying that the Conservative Party as it was has already ended. 

Party of fiscal probity? Not after Boris's promises.

Party of business? Not after Brexit and Boris's 'f*ck business'.

The Union? Brexit likely to cause the breakup of the United Kingdom.

Party of law and order? Not any more after reductions in police and failure to maintain the court system in good order. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/court-trials-parliament-justice...

I could go on...

All might be true but none of these examples will convince Conservative MPs to vote for their own party’s annihilation.

Does Ken Clarke want to be known as the Conservative who volunteered to be Prime Minister after a vote of no confidence in a Conservative government?

Actually, come to think of it, he probably does having failed to lead the party/nation any other way.

The problem with anyone other than Corbyn is that he/she would need the confidence of Corbyn and the few Labour Corbynystas that back him.

By rights Corbyn ought to be the obvious candidate; if anybody else were to usurp him it only serves to illustrate what a completely useless idiot he is and for Corbyn to lend them his support in a vote of confidence would be to effectively vote for no confidence in himself.

Hence the Meat Loaf dilema, someone has to back down and lend their confidence to someone they are idealogically opposed to.

I suspect Corbyn wants to be PM more than he wants to stop no deal so it's unlikely to be him.

Actually, I suspect he would probably quite like no deal, that's the Marxist's favourite tactic, foment anarchy and then seize your opportunity while everyone is distracted!

Thanks for the mention. It must have occurred to you that the people only believe the poisonous lies they are fed all year long by the media they digest because it is all anti-Corbyn. You have all the usual rabid billionaire owned Tory rags and the Oxbridge run BBC etc then you have the imperialist supporting Guardian who spread all the anti-semitic BS fed by their Bliarite plp pals so is it any wonder many ordinary peoples views on JC are all wrong? And don't give me Pmps views on JC because he just parrots the Billionaire Tory press barons bollocks.

You are dealing with a lot of powerful interests wanting to keep JC out of No 10 even if it is just temporarily to stop brexit so it will be interesting to see how much these so called remainers really want to remain since in this situation the leader of the opposition is always the one who takes charge. 

The primary aim of the vonc is to stop a no deal exit and then have a GE.
Does it really matter who is the leader of the interim government?
Just leave No 10 empty and have a 'pretend' PM for the duration, who has no authority to seize power. surely they can agree to something along those lines?

Lol

That will be the anarchy that the capitalists created in the first place prior to the people rising up. 

You would even rather leave it empty than let JC in temporarily just to stop a no deal! 

I can't believe all you so called remainers (not you Lusk but nearly all of the above) who seem more obsessed with keeping JC out for even a short temporary time when it is customary practice that the leader of the opposition gets this position. This is the leader of the 2nd biggest party who has gave us the only credible hope of not leaving the EU and this is how you repay him? What an insult. 

This is so incredibly childish and just makes us look even more ridiculous to the outside world. 

Tory rebels have already said they wouldn't work under Corbyn, so someone less divisive is simply necessary. 

So what? Unless UKC is full of rebel Tory MPs it doesn't matter.

What matters is how much CROSS PARTY support in Parliament Corbyn can get as obviously Labour support alone is not enough.

"I can't believe all you so called" - don't be such a cliche of left wing factionalism destined by their purity to achieve nothing.

Firstly he isn't a leader, he was voted into the roll but he isn't leading.

He's a Brexiteer. He hasn't done anything, all those around him in all parties, ex MPs and ex pms have done everything that he should have been doing. He just expects to stand there and be given the keys to no10 because of it. 

Regardless of what the aim is, the remainers still need to agree on someone to take over as PM. The country cannot legally be without a PM. Until such time as a new one is agreed the incumbent must remain in office. This is why Gordon Brown had to remain in Downing Street for several days after the 2010 general election until Cameron and Clegg had formalised their coalition.

One might think they could agree on someone but it doesn't seem like its proving to be easy for them. They can answer for themselves as to why not.

I'm sure that's pretty much what Corbyn believes, it's entirely in accordance with his Marxist (and your) beliefs.

Why doesn't a Parliamentary Majority against No Deal send a signed letter to the EU asking for an extension?  Would be interesting to see the effect

I should not have to point out that when I am referring to posters individual views on a thread on ukc then I am not referring to MPs. I can see the petty and pathetic playground practices of professed so called remainers in the Lib dems and Tory party who are not what they say they are,especially the so called screaming remainers of the libs, at least the SNP get it though. 

And no Elsewhere, what counts is not how much CROSS PARTY support JC can get what matters is MPs who say they want to stop a no deal brexit, actually going out and stopping a no deal brexit. 

And Summo c'mon you can do better than that weak reply as JC is the leader who has listened to his party and now given us remainers a hope with a second EU membership referendum despite him being a leaver himself.

If you are serious about staying in the EU then that is the lifeline we all desperately wanted so much and he has accepted even though 30% of Labour voters voted leave and he must keep them on Labour's side in an upcoming GE, hence the fence sitting /keeping all options open. 

I suggest you ponder why the Benn Act, to date the most dramatic and effective measure taken against no deal Brexit, isn’t called the Corbyn Act.  

Have you finally stumbled on to the fact that you have been played, extremists at both ends of the spectrum want the same thing for similar reasons.

Was Benn voted the leader of the Labour Party ?

No. End of.

Edit: His Act was obviously well discussed with Corbyn who could not be seen to put his name to it for the obvious reason that it would alienate the 30% of Labour voters who voted leave. 

Me- That will be the anarchy that the capitalists created in the first place prior to the people rising up. 

You-I'm sure that's pretty much what Corbyn believes, it's entirely in accordance with his Marxist (and your) beliefs.

Does Corbyn want a planned economy and all land, factories, business and means of production to be owned by the workers after a socialist revolution?

No, so put down your Daily Tory Völkischer Beobachter that screams about hidden Bolshivik threats everywhere and realize its all lies. 

I'm well aware that the extremes of both left and right want to leave the EU, that's been no secret for decades.

The mask was allowed to slip during their recent conference when a rather thicker part of the wedge than the thin end became visible. What you describe seems pretty much in accordance with everything Corbyn stands for and anyway, that's pretty much what you want isn't it.

The Conservative party is dead, Farage supporters have seen to that. All that remains to see is if there's space for a center-right party between the Faragist/ERG rump and the LibDems. Without electoral reform which as ever looks a long way over the horizon, I suspect not. Likely we're in for a bleak decade or two of hard-right lunacy while the post '47 welfare state is completely demolished and picked clean. I expect we'll see a 'death penalty' referendum pledge gracing the next non-emergency tory manifesto if we do end up lumbered with people vs establishment populism to cover their looting.

Probably not but he's already said he would if asked.

jk

The Conservative party isn’t dead it’s just stunned.

Should Brexit ever happen then Farage will fade away just like UKIP and the Conservatives will be reinvigorated.

Says something about his massive ego.

So are we...

As far as I'm aware it's actually been customary for a third party, not the leader of either big bloc to lead the 20th century's 'national unity' governments.

It would be expected under the FTPA the leader of the opposition got first crack at securing a majority but in situations where that isn't going to be possible (most) and where an election isn't currently desirable (extraordinary but here we are) we need a government in waiting ready to go, that must be built around whoever can pull enough support together in order to ensure a democratic event occurs before the brexit clock stops. 

I'd be happy enough to see Corbyn elected by the public to lead the country (though I suspect it's unlikely) but this isn't that moment, what we need now is a leader who can pull together the support of MPs across the floor, MPs who will soon need to fight an election for their parties on more than one issue. Like it or not, Corbyn simply can't do that. Nor can anyone who would be seen as a threat to him or Johnson, nor a nationalist, nor anyone from the left or right flanks.

jk

C'mon you are now projecting with your mask slipping comment. 

If you are referring to abolishing the post of deputy leader ie. Watson then that motion was soundly defeated and Corbyn didn't hesitate to rejected it himself, so where does that leave your rhetoric about JC being a Marxist-Leninist revolutionary? In the dust.

And If the entire world was a united socialist one then we would not have climate change or wars or consumer driven societies but it is not, it is a capitalist one which has been consolidated after 1989 and 1991 so I don't think you will ever get a new socialist country again in my lifetime but perhaps in 100 years when people come to their senses or perhaps sooner when the US empire collapses who knows but it isn't relevant to these days no matter how much you want to use it to frighten people who are politically gullible. 

"reports of my death are greatly exaggerated"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/28/tories-hold-12-point-lead-...

That's the kind of death Labour would kill for right now.

Perhaps a more realistic assessment might be its all still to play for!

Indeed.

It isn't just Remainers who will be trying to agree a stand-in PM, it's all MPs who object to the way parliamentary sovereignty has been trampled over in an attempt to deliver a particularly damaging Brexit that few, if any, had in mind when they took part in the referendum.

Be that as it may, they still have to agree on someone and that's currently their biggest problem. See my first post on the matter at 23:41 last night.

Right, I think I read about this FTPA the other day or week on ukc so OK as you say, it would be expected for the leader of the opposition to form this government but since some are more concerned about even a temporary JC PM just to stop a no deal brexit than they are about a no deal brexit then that means we get a no deal brexit.

So be it. If that is what these Tory/Lib MPs are prepared to do to this country then we are out with no deal because of these "Remainer" Tories/Libs and all the forth coming trouble will be their fault. 

Looks pretty dead to me as the party of business, economic responsibility and small c conservatism. It's become a puppet of Farage's revolutionary libertarian movement.

'Brexit' is at best going to take at least a decade. Add to that the time it'll take to unpick Scotland and NI I doubt either of us will live to see stability restored. Farage is a malign fixture until the booze or the fags do for him.

The Conservatives will be utterly ruined if they deliver the reality of 'brexit', there'll be no taking credit for it in anything beyond the very short term, we're fast approaching a long and painful blame game.

jk

Most political parties who are in government long enough end up in a poor way.

Heck, I even voted Labour once to get rid of a Conservative government.

While it’s true that leaving the EU won’t be the even of things it does remove Farage from the game.

With luck  Labour government will negotiate a future relationship which would seem to suit many on this forum. (Yes, I know you’d all rather remain).

Irony!

Yeah but that's not what a year or three back we'd have called the Conservative party, that's the ERG and those too spineless to oppose them from within.

We can hope but I'm struggling to see the moderate Tories taking the reins back.

jk

It really doesn't, this now is the easy bit, it's the very first step onto a long hard road. At every juncture for years to come Farage will be reinventing and invoking the will of the people, yanking your chain to yank the government's to steer a radical libertarian course.

They won't, Labour's brexit is too pointless, the Conservative version too painful. Neither would sell in a clean campaign.

jk

Would have a pleasing symmetry to it, given that she's the one responsible for Corbyn being where he is today.

But I say Benn or Cooper, not Clarke (cough, cough).

No it means if Corbyn is stubborn enough he has first crack at failing to secure a majority. That doesn't stop anti-no deal MPs then coalescing around a less divisive figure.

The ex-Conservatives like Hammond are needed to build this coalition and they will never vote for Corbyn. Some of the LibDems might, most I think won't. That's reality, there's no point railing against it, better instead to accept what we cant change and figure out how we change what we can't accept within those constraints.

jk

Can we have Cooper-Clarke?

Or go the the whole hog and include the rest of the 1972 Leeds United team too!

Billy Brexit and Peter Loremainer

Ha ha! I was thinking of the punk poet, but either could be a better option!

Or maybe Johnson... Linton Kwesi! 

Right I didn't know you could get more than one go at it in the short time we have left and if that is the case then everyone in a 2nd VONC would need to temporarily rally around a.n.other to stop no deal, good. But these so called remainers in the Tory/Lib ranks that wouldn't vote for JC as temporary leader but want a 2nd EU ref. will only be getting their wish because of the man they wouldn't allow to be that temporary leader. 

As long as we stop a far-right Tory no deal then get an extension - of which I don't see why it can't be longer-then a second EU referendum that JC has promised after a remain majority GE result. 

Nobody will get a MONC passed (without government support!) until they have the numbers to form a replacement government or we're past Halloween.

I don't think you should be counting on an anti-brexit/pro-referendum coalition GE win or a remain referendum result if one ends up nailed to May's WA in a couple of weeks. Both are possible but neither result looks likely.

jk

I don't know about that, you were all calling them c*nts three years ago and still are today. That's what lefties do, hate is in their DNA, anyone who disagrees with them is a c*nt.

If Corbyn was sharp. He'd set up a press conference to exactly coincide with Johnston big speech at the conference timings wise. He could then announce how is he willing to let say ken clarke lead a temporary government with him as deputy. Play the statesman, giving ground but actually taking far more. It would show he is putting country before personal ambition, he is acknowledging common ground in other senior ex/mps. There would be no negative, because as it stands his cred is so low he'd never be voted in as pm. He can't lose. 

OK, fair enough. If I see a coont, I'll call it a coont.

Difference is, we just say what we see, as opposed to Tories who consider most people as coonts!

I spend time on a football forum where right wing views are far more prevelant than here and believe me hate and abuse towards lefties is alive and kicking on there! 

Rubbish. It’s run up the curtain and joined the choirs invisibule.

Boris is the ONLY thing they have left going for them. Which just about says it all.

Con ministers have suggested Boris has something up his sleeve to bypass the Benn Law. But this could be the plan, con MPs into the idea he can bypass it. This caretaker government could also be subject to a no confidence vote and collapse right at time of default Brexit, this ensuring a default no deal Brexit.!!

So any caretaker government has to have the absolutely overwhelming support of Parliament, including some Tories.

It's safe to assume Johnson and his team believe they still have a roll or two of the dice left. The EU looks near certain to grant an extension if asked, despite ongoing efforts by the government to spoil that threatening disruption of EU business so it's hard to see what they might be planning.

Johnson says he'll obey the law which is to ask for an extension assuming he fails to secure backing for his fictional or May's actual WA. We should probably believe that, he appears to have little option beyond resigning (seems unlikely). We hear the Benn law is leaky and we hear the Benn law is watertight, who knows but it's not clear the government would go after a loophole in it to force a no-deal crash against Parliament's clearly expressed will. To me that seems unlikely given the risk they then have to face the public's judgement at a time of parliament's choosing in the chaotic aftermath. For Johnson this is only half about satisfying his backers, his party, ego and premiership is at stake too so flagrantly disobeying parliament to deliver the electorate painful chaos while not in control of election timing doesn't work for him. Brexiters will feel the pain the same as or likely more so than remainers and I don't see his emollient spending spree plans standing up to in the face of a serious revenue crunch and rising borrowing prices.

Major thinks Johnson could abuse his prerogative powers to sidestep the Benn law, others think the courts and palace simply would not allow it. Could prove effective at delivering brexit but if he gets the timing right but brexit isn't all he needs.

The hinted at new 'deal' looks like more bullshit designed to position the EU as wreckers and the government as trying their best against EU intransigence. 9/10ths electioneering, 1/10th trying their luck.

So we're left with Johnson, as ever, needing to pass May's withdrawal agreement or backtrack on all the rhetorical ratcheting he's been doing to make A50 extension look impossible. His cabinet might call for his head if he tries that and it's hard to see, unless an extension can be ruled out that parliament will pass it. If he can force a May vs no-brexit choice by ruling out extension and fight off the ERG nuts he'll probably deliver brexit but there are two very big ifs there.

It's going to be another interesting couple of weeks.

jk

interesting or terrifying ?

Most definitely the latter I would have thought.

With probable added increased violence toward those on the opposite side to BJ from the extremists who have been given the green light to carry on that way by his statements.

My take from the outside is that Johnson wants/wanted to bring the May WA agreement back at the end of October, just to see if MPs blink.

Hence also the early prorogation: He needs a new parliamentary session, else he is  not allowed to do that. Seems he shot himself in the foot by overdoing the length of prorogation, thereby rendering it illegal and blocking a fourth(?) presentation of the WA bill, as it is still the old session....

CB 

I get the feeling from the current regime in No10 that the whole purpose of their entire being is leaving the EU and nothing else  .Perhaps I am a victim of Johnson and Cumming's stubborn rhetoric, gaslighting and trolling attitudes on brexit and leaving on the 31st no matter what, which I hope is the case but this game of chicken they are playing with remainers, the EU and even anti- no deal leavers feels like more than a bluff to me.

If we approached the 31st with nothing in place I can see him even pulling a sicky to get us out of the EU. Within the bounds of reason I can see him use any kamikaze means to get us out on the 31st and cement his name forever in British history as the PM who got us out of the EU.I think this comes before anything else to this regime and they are willing to sacrifice everything else for it although of course they do not see anything being sacrificed. I hope I'm wrong. 

Celebrate your last 30 days of rights as an EU Citizen.  Then sue the people who have taken them away, ask for trial of the case by battle

"ABOUT 1660 there was a great difference between him and Sir Hierome Sankey (one of Oliver's knights) ...They printed one against the other. (This knight was wont to preach at Dublin.) The knight had been a soldier, and challenged Sir William to fight with him. Sir William is extremely short-sighted, and being the challengee, it belonged to him to nominate place and weapon: he nominates for the place a dark cellar; and the weapon to be a great carpenter's axe. This turned the knight's challenge into ridicule, and so it came to naught."

This is the man that on the eve of the 2016 campaign vacillated, leave was chosen to serve Johnson, Johnson did not choose to serve leave.e's not ideologically wedded to this but to his own glory. There will be no glory for him if his career dies delivering no-deal chaos, he'll be the venal footnote to the 'brexit campaign' chapter.

There are ideologues in his government and team (with conflicting visions). And idiots. And there is also a lot invested in bringing them to power to deliver chaos. They shouldn't be discounted but they're not all vultures and fantasists, some will, in private at least, still be clinging to a (slightly) saner vision of our new place in the world.

jk

If vainglory really motivates Boris , he can still get credit for getting "Brexit done "if he has to settle for an EU extension and be subject to a referendum on May's deal, that has to come back for discussion by law. I'm hoping ultimately this is what is essential Boris.

Of course saner is not going to be easy. If the procedure leads to the withdrawal agreement only being what we have a referendum on, that of course does not include the future trade deal with EU. The Boris position now will be to be the hard brexit option in a GE, World trade organisation rules with years of Boris still arguing the impossible for Ireland . That is very high risk because it could win!

Corbyn's position of a softer option of Brexit in a GE has its logic, but unfortunately no mass appeal for leavers. 

Its got to be a referendum on May's WA hasn't it now, especially as the Scottish court is holding him to the Benn law.

The caretaker government idea is going on the back boiler a bit if they see a level of Boris co-operation to comply with the law and of course the EU will demand a procedure to justify extension.

Thank goodness the prorogation was stopped otherwise we . the elecotrate, would never have seen the exposure of the hard Brexit Boris plan for what it was worth,- worthless!