UKH

Morning all - I rarely post but thought in between the brexit/CV19 posts I thought I might seek thoughts from the collective UKC hive mind.

Does anyone have experiences of smooth/rough collies (not border), pure or crosses etc.

Background: I'm trying to work out whether there is any dog breed/mutt which could both fit in with a working life - i.e. being left at home for a while (e.g. whippets) - whilst also being good for long days on the hills at the weekend (not whippets). Smooth collies seem a bit of a middle ground, but probably still hate being left.

I see a lot of working-aged people with collie-type dogs out and about - do they all work from home (the owners, not the dogs!!)? How do people manage with a normal job but also having a weekend hill companion?

I wouldn't suggest any sort of collie for this lifestyle. I have a Toller (type of retriever) and a spaniel mix. They both happily sleep at home or in the car during the day, getting a decent walk at lunchtime. If anything the spaniel (older) is grumpy that we are in the house during the day at the moment, disturbing his sleep.

I have a Welsh collie (short hair). She's as alert as a ninja on crack, most of the time. She regularly goes out into the garden and barks at trees, external noises, clouds etc. Collies are all highly strung and need a mountain or two and a couple of hundred sheep to be really happy.

Mine tries to round the kids up, at bed time. It's got to the point where we don't say 'bed time' as she runs loops of the stairs barking in excitement. They are very smart, if you're into flyball, dog agility or training them, but they need to be actively engaged. Ours has worked out then when there is music is on the tv of an evening, its the end of a film and it will soon be bed time. So now she gets herself all excited and starts barking during any film with music.

I've taken her running. She can easily do 10k and be just a bonkers when she gets back.

Get a rescue dog.

We adopted ours from Paws 2 Rescue.  They are generally street dogs from Romania who have been rescued from public shelters.  

Their background means they have survived by getting well with humans and other dogs and they are generally fit robust mongrels without the generations of harm caused by pedigree breeding.

Coming from a shelter their needs are fairly small.  They are content just being fed regularly and having a secure home. 

They come in all shapes and sizes.

Our dog looks a bit like a collie. She is happy lazing at home alone while we work, with a long walk around lunchtime but will also happy spend a day at the crag or bagging munroes. 

Best decision we ever made. 

I had a collie cross of some sort who was happy to be left to sleep as he got older but its certainly not a given trait of any particular breed and particularly unusual for any collie types. Younger dogs won't like being left.  

People who work and have a dog have doggy day care or dog walkers or work near enough to go home during the day.  

Sounds much like my old Welsh Collie, brilliant dog but your ninja on crack comment is very apt! 
I have a Cocker Spaniel these days who is mellow in comparison.

We've got a lurcher – half greyhound, half bearded collie. She's a total joy to be around, and is proving to be an excellent crag / mountain dog.

With all the temperament of a collie she'll happily chase a ball / stick for hours if you're willing, but then gladly curls up and sleeps all day like a whippet / greyhound when the fun's over (providing she's had enough exercise, but 45 minutes in the morning seems plenty to wipe her out on non-hill days).  

We have a collie lab cross and she is perfect.

Happy to stay at home and sleep on her own.  Happy to work (retrieve). Happy to run for 20km next to the bike. Happy to go swimming. basically anything apart from give me a cuddle on the sofa.

Pure breed collies would be a terrible choice for leaving at home for any period.- they're neurotic/ full of energy.

Any cross or relaxed breed will be fine once you train them too be left- similarly any dog can be trained to go out in the hills (things with tiny legs aside)- its all about training (if you exclude those breeds with extreme personality traits)

While i agree to a point when any says 'you should rescue', it really isn't that easy sometimes.  we tried everywhere local and no one would even let us look at their dogs.

Just to put the other point of view you have to remember that working collies will spend most of their time either tied up in a kennel or shut up in a shed. Not saying it's right but I think they can cope with being left at home more than people think. They need lots of exercise around this though that's for sure.

Have you heard the racket a farm collie makes?  and have you tried to pet one?

They aren't comparable.  If you want a pet and not a piece of farm equipment, then you can't leave a collie (generally- there are always individuals that are fine but you cant be sure you would get one when picking up a puppy).

i do feel sorry for my neighbour's young collie kept outside all year with not a lot of exercise;(

Difficult to answer as different breeds and the temperament of individual dogs count....aswell as routine/training.

I've often heard some people saying you shouldn't have a dog if you are out all day at work and I know of at least one rescue centre that takes that view.

Ive never had an issue with it....the last 3 dogs ive had have been at home from around 8:30 to about 3:30 during the week....current one (13 years old though) till about 5:30 now the kids have left home.

Ive had border terriers....usually about a 15-20 minute walk in the morning and a run around after work....most weeks a long'ish walk at the weekend.

I'm not sure Collie dogs of any variety are best suited to this lifestyle though to be honest. My mate has one but it has never done well being left alone for more than a few hours at a time...

100% agree! If you can, rescue a dog. We've had many and all have been happy to spend a day out. Currently we have a staffy/Boxer cross who sleeps all day at home but can run/walk for hours up and down hills, he's happy as long as someone will throw him a stick or ball. And we also just got a Romanian rescue just before lock down, I'd really, really recommend a Rommie, ours is little she looks like a corgi crossed terrier, but there were loads (we met loads and they were all so lovely) and as Alex says many are the size/shape of a collie. She is friendly to everyone, happy to run around all day and despite her little legs she's very nimble! 

Don't know where you are but in Merseyside Rescue Me and Carla Lane both bring over Romanian dogs and are happy to re-home. I know what La Benya means, some rescue places act as if they don't want to re-home the dogs, but there are plenty out there ready and willing to help you find your new companion  

I work shifts and my partner doesn't so ours aren't on their own much but they're happy enough for a good few hours on their own. Options if you need to be out for long periods are dog walkers or dog sitters, another bonus of a rescue is that being on their own in your house is going to be much nicer than being on their own in a kennel The rescue place will know if the dog suffers from seperation anxiety, although saying that we were told our older dog did but once he settled in he was fine.  

I don't have any experience of collies but endorse the view of others. There is a good chance they will need more stimulation than being left at home during the day.

I also endorse getting a rescue dog as there are hundreds in need of a good home.

I would not recommend getting one from a rescue organisation overseas, because there are plenty of organisations here so there is no need to contact and deal with ones abroad. You will be able to visit a rescue centre here easily and get to know the staff and the dogs, and be able to discuss what you are looking for in a dog.

Dave

Grew up in the countryside so plenty of experience of farm collies, had collies as pets as a kid I think having more than one dog definitely helps lots of walks does too. the point about rescues makes a lot of sense as you are at least improving the situation for a dog even if it's not perfect. 

I teach so not super long hours.

He's an anxious lab thing with severe separation anxiety (came from a kill shelter) who loves my truck, he'll sleep in it all day, it is like his crate. On cold days he will come to work and sleep in my truck. I park it out the way and open the windows.

I get up at 5, run up the local mountain for an hour with him, get to school, teach, come out a few times a day to walk him, and get lectured by some other teacher that I'm cruel to my fit lab and that her heavily overweight lab stuck in a crate at home is treated better..

But he can stay home on his own. Dogs are often all or nothing, a good walk in the morning and night (mine runs off the leash a lot), leaves him tired. From my house its a 2 mile trail run to a lake where he can swim and 2 miles home. 

They do need exercise though, if they aren't tired they will destroy your house, especially any sort of rescue dog.

I had a sheep dog, ran from a farm pregnant, mega anxious, she was fine home alone but again would come to work and be under my desk. they just need loads of exercise.

Paws 2 rescue are UK based but rescue dogs from Romania.  Highly professional organisation.

Another vote for a Lurcher.

Collie crosses are fairly common, or how about a Bedlington X Whippet or Greyhound. Beddies are as tough as old boots and the sighthound portion means they can relax with the best of them. 

Yep I agree no need to deal directly with a rescue abroad if you don't want to, plenty of places here bring over batches of dogs, get to know them and re-home that way. 

I have to disagree that "any sort of rescue dog" will destroy your house, I think this is totally dependent on the dog. Any dog has the potential to be a chewer/mess things up in the home but of all of the dogs I've lived with (five now so far over my life) only one has destroyed things and he was not a rescue dog. All of our rescue dogs have been clean and non destructive. Again this is something that a lot of rescue centres will know about the dogs, but maybe not so much with the Romanain/Bulgarian street dogs. As someone else said above, they seem to be so grateful to be in a loving home that they just want to please you so maybe it's unlikely

let us know what you get when you get one Good luck, living with a dog is the best! 

Hi all, thanks for the responses...to be clear I was not talking about a border collie, but smooth/rough collies (aka Lassie dogs), which are allegedly(!) less highly strung and less work than borders etc - so I was intrigued whether anyone had any experiences of these? (although I like the ninja on crack comment!)

I'm certainly all for rescue dogs, and the tip about the ex-Romanian street dogs sounds good. However - I suppose it might still be a bit of luck of the draw with what you end up. alex_arthur it sounds like you found a great companion from Paws2Rescue, any tips? Despite my profile I'm currently residing in Fife. I have a pretty flexible job (academic, east Fife etc..)

I'm not in any rush but trying to do a bit of research before I end up diving in

cheers all

nick

I know this thread is at risk of becoming everyone recommending the breed they have, but others have started so I'll continue. 2 years ago we rehomed a retired Lakeland trailhound. 

http://www.trailhoundwelfare.org.uk/

Think lightweight foxhound/ all terrain greyhound. We picked the breed for exactly the same reason as you. Dora at 8 easily copes with a full 7/8hr hill day, but routinely that bit of greyhound in the breed means sofa surfing is perfectly acceptable all day after a morning walk of 1-2hrs. As others have said with any breed, not all trailhounds are created equal. Biggest "drawback" with the breed can be recall, that drive to follow their nose is high, but we do walk Dora off lead most of the time.

Border collies cope fine with being left for a decent amount of time (4/5 hrs) if you give them exercise and have properly trained them by leaving them for extremely short intervals then building up slowly, no going back in response to whines, no fuss on returning home, no faffing on leaving (exiting needs to be calm and slick). They should then learn that its a normal part of a day and that the 'master' will return. 

My parents had a rough collie. She was so docile and tolerant, happy to be left for a few hours and could cope with a hill day with ease. Great with kids too which is a good job as every one that saw her would run over screeching “LAAAASSSSSSIIIIEEEE”. Only downside was the coat needed a bit of looking after and for some reason she was scared of certain types of tiled floors!?!?!

Like any active breed of dog they do need decent amount of exercise and mental stimulation but in general they are a very different temperament to borders. The border the have now is very highly strung and needs almost continuous stimulation 

I know that your actions save dogs from trouble and misery, but I wonder if it should also be backed up by work on changing the mindset of people in such Eastern European countries as Romania. If we keep importing dogs from these countries, is it more likely that people in those countries will care less about the end point within their own countries of these dogs in the future, as they know that there is a fair chance that British charities will mop up the badly dealt with dogs over there? Are we effectively encouraging more of the same problem occurring?  I hope not, but I do wonder.

In the last year I've dealt with a Smooth Collie which had a really bad tibial fracture at the age of 4-5 months, and I had to use two locking plates on this bone. The fracture meant that the dog had to have a lot of attention from me in the form of visits and radiographs, and further surgery to remove the metal work. All during a canine lockdown to allow the healing to happen. This young dog coped incredibly well in this restricted and strange environment. Now he has achieved adult size, he has a great time under normal exercise, and could do more than he currently does.

Smooth Collies are numerically small as a breed in this country, but I would consider one, and the example dog above was brilliant. I would say that they are more intelligent than the Rough Collies, and Shelties, and they have a much lower incidence of Collie eye anomaly, although you should check what the status of the parents of any of the collies is. They should have been eye tested in the last twelve months prior to the birth of the pups. I'm on the eye panel, and if you want any advice about this, then email me.

Not everyone approves of bringing Romanian strays to Britain. Paula Boyden, veterinary director of the Dogs Trust, the UK’s largest dog charity, says there are diseases in mainland Europe that we don’t have in the UK. With the pet passport scheme, a dog coming from any EU member state has to be microchipped and vaccinated against rabies and tapeworm. That is to protect humans, but there are plenty of doggy diseases that aren’t protected against, and she mentions a few scary-sounding ones: babesiosis, which is tick-borne; ehrlichiosis, which affects platelet cells; a heart worm called Dirofilaria immitis; and leishmaniasis, which is incurable and can potentially affect humans. “It’s a huge worry because we really don’t want those diseases in the UK.”

The Dogs Trust gets 30,000 calls a year from people wanting to relinquish animals. “I would encourage anyone thinking about getting a rescue dog to please consider a UK rescue organisation first,” says Boyden. “If you have been refused, think carefully about why. Think about the challenges of getting a dog from overseas, particularly if you have never met it, from a behaviour perspective, and the disease side as well.” On the behaviour side, she says that many of the street dogs will have been free-roaming, used to making their own choices, and that taking those choices away by putting them into a British domestic environment can increase their stress levels. She mentions a dog from Romania in the charity’s care that was given up for those reasons. “That dog has certain challenges; it’s not in a position to be rehomed at the moment.”

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2019/jan/08/they-look-cute-but-should-we...

As a vet dealing with clients taking dogs abroad on holiday, before the pandemic, I'm aware of all of those diseases, and indeed was present in Philadelphia when one of the medicine lecturers there was proving the existence of Ehrlichia there back in 1983/84. 

Dirofilaria is the typical heartworm that all dog owners in the USA treat their dogs for prophylactically most of the time, and theoretically it could be transmitted by mosquitoes present here already.

I have a couple of dogs on the books that came from Spain already having Leishmaniasis. So all these are real concerns. 

Where people from this country take their dogs to within Europe is relevant. I personally would not take my dog to the southern parts of France and other countries, due to leishmaniasis and the exotic ticks, which have also been brought back to the UK in the coats/skin of dogs travelling under the Pet Passport scheme.

British dogs that have gone abroad on holiday have died due to these diseases. A sad business.

That’s a great photo 

We have a border collie and she is perfectly happy to sleep most of the day. She was an accidental litter, half working collie and half domestic. 

We would leave her for 5-6 hours, any longer and the dog walker would come take them out. 

She needs a reasonable amount of excersise but really nothing excessive.  She does need mental stimulation though, I think half an hour doing tricks and making her think is better than just trying to exhaust her by wandering aimlessly around for hours on end. 

No I don't think so. Sadly the number of dogs UK and other charities rescue are a drop in the ocean. 

I spent a long time considering dogs rescued from the UK before choosing a dog from Romania.  In contrary to what the director of Dogs Trust says above, almost all the dogs in the uk shelters local to me had significant behavioural issues.

Sadly many dogs in uk shelters have been more badly mistreated/neglected by their uk owners than dogs from Romania left to their own devices on the streets have been.

Find a rescue dog that suits you. I wouldn't worry to much about where it came from. All dogs lives matter. 

The introduction of European disease is an important point, and this is why all dogs from Paws 2 rescue are vet checked, vaccinated and neutered. 

Totally agree with this.  Collies need mental stimulation to a greater extent than physical.   They obviously need well exercised, but not to the degree that many think.

Hours exercising everyday trying to "tire them out" will only make them fitter and mean they potentially become more problematic on the days they aren't exercised so thoroughly.  

Rightly or wrongly the lives of many working collies involves a few hours of intense mental and physical exertion, sometimes not even daily, and lots of resting time. 

Hi Nick, have a look at the Paws 2 rescue website and facebook page.  There is a large community of people who have adopted dogs from them.  I heard about them from a work friend who has rescued three dogs.

Many of the dogs are in foster care in the uk.  You will be able to hear from the foster owner about any issues they may have.

Compared to the large uk rescue organisations I would say P2R are a lot more pragmatic when it comes to rehoming.  Dogstrust wouldn't give us a dog because my wife and I both work full-time for example.  Similarly they wouldn't give a dog to my friend who live in a flat, even though her partner is a full-time dog walker.. they now happily have three dogs from Romania!

Definitely consider a rescue dog and keep an open mind about where it comes from.  You may be lucky and find a dog more locally.  

Feel free to pm me if you have any more questions. 

Dogs trust are trying to rehome dogs here.  Their point of view is incredibly biased. 

My 2p worth. We've always had rescues, and the local rescues are often more accommodating than the big ones (e.g. Dogs Trust) who have, IMHO, overly stringent requirements for owners (have to be home all day etc.).

As others have said Lurchers often make great hill companions, but be aware they can have a very strong prey drive. My previous one (possibly a Malinois cross) was excellent, and easy to train to ignore stock.

My current one (definately a pit bull cross) is a different beast altogether. Chaotic background (original owner is still in jail), bounced around a number of foster homes and rescues. Not agressive to people at all, even when we first got him. Took a bit of work but now relaxed and happy to trot about and play, loves walks and running, comes back on command in an empty field.

However he has a huge prey drive, and I'll probably never have him off lead around stock. I'm also very wary of taking him where people who can't control their dogs let them run round off lead. 

As a veteran of 5 rescue dogs, I would advise that it is not the breed but the dog that is the limiting factor. 

My collie was an outstanding dog and great on the hill, we ran 1000s of miles together. 

My Lurcher less good, he had 2 speeds, walk or rocket and tired too easily for long days. 

My Whippet would do everything, just needed a coat before I did. Still with me but very much an old fireside boy now. 

My podenco, small ginger Spanish terrier type, ought to be a brilliant hill dog but he is too much of a tw*t, others are great. 

My kokoni cross (fluffy Greek restaurant scrap begging type) is super, great nature and loves to walk his tiny legs off. 

You won't know the true character of your dog until you have had them for a while. Be aware that any dog can be a hill dog and equally any dog can not. Training can only go so far. 

When considering a dog as a hill companion, don't disregard smaller dogs, they have a number of advantages; easier to lift over stiles, easier to clean after a muddy walk and importantly, easy to carry out if there is a problem. 

An ex girlfriend ended up with a young pure bred rough collie by a twist of fate rather than choice (Long story).

He had limitless energy as you'd expect, absolutely lovely, docile temperament, could go all day walking or running. He was also happy enough just slobbing out all day but only if there were people around. 

Left alone for more than about two hours it rapidly turned in to "the devil makes work for idle paws" He'd dig up every plant in the house, chew carpets and furniture and generally act like a domesticated tornado...

It really opened my eyes to the ownership of a dog like this, I think I'd only have one if I had a job where I could have them with me all day.

Their points could seem to be valid to me, but that also makes sense. 

I just thought I'd 'add it to the mix' as much as anything...

I’ve got a short haired Welsh collie, bought from the farmer who runs Garth Farm campsite. When she was young she was an absolute loon, but she’s approaching her 10th birthday now & has slowed right down over the past couple of years.
She was a brilliant hill dog & would go on for miles (much further than I ever could), but now she’s only up for an hour or so a day. She gets left in the daytime with no real issues (once she’d got past the puppy destruction), but she does have the other 2 dogs to keep her company. 

Good point. Lugging nearly 30kg of uncooperative stupidity (he'd decided his two rear legs didn't belong to him so they didn't work) over a very steep stile, tethered to me by a canicross lead (can't yet trust him not to devour anything smaller than a cow if left to his own devices), wasn't in my 'nice little fell run' plans for last week.

A friend's dalmation dog once decided that she'd had enough of cold paws during a walk in the snow, and lay on her back and needed to be carried home again, she'd reached her limit.

We also have a ex Romanian stray, I would also highly recommend

The charities do a good job of vetting the dogs that come over and making sure they will match well in their new homes.

Ours is a collie crossed with something small and fluffy. I think she had quite a hard time of it before being rescued and would flinch when petted, was very cautious with people and other dogs etc.

However after her rough start to life she loves the quiet life. She's more than happy to chill inside for hours or sunbathe in the back garden. But being a collie she has plenty of stamina for hill days.

We met several dogs before choosing ours, all seemed really good.

​​​​​​Seems fair to me, would you want to go from being inside to walking about in snow bare foot? 

Obviously it's your friends dog not yours but some dog boots and a coat seem like a must if you wanna take them out in the snow for any period of time?

The problems with the stile thing is a combination of reasons.

1. He's a very long dog, (had him DNA tested when we got him. Greyhound, American Staffie, Great Dane mix), stiles are a bit cramped for him;

2. Apparently most dogs aren't naturally aware of what their back legs do, other than make them run fast. They need to learn foot placement skills (work in progress);

3. He's a lummox. Preferred method of dealing with an obstacle is plough through it rather than think.

Ironically he can jump a 5 bar gate from a standing start, but currently I don't trust him off lead with sheep about, so he could have just jumped the fence let to his own devices.

Get  yourself a rough coated Lurcher, I’ve got 4 and there’s smashing dogs, beddlington x whippet are a nice size.