UKH

Right then, an encouraging first game beckons - what’s going to happen? Who will win? Where are you watching? What have the refs been briefed to watch closely? 

Predictions, grievances, celebrations - send them here…

In reply to pencilled in:

Ireland, France or New Zealand, nothing like sitting on the fence....

Edit, that’s for the tournament winner. 

In reply to pencilled in:

good first half so far for the opener. France relying on along kicking game, the ABs making some costly errors. Gonna be a good 2nd 40!

In reply to Derry:

Both sides really hitting their tech excellence. That Moanga tackle was something else. 
The sustained pressure from France, calculated risks, basics done right continually, glimpses of DuPont being DuPont. After a dull opening ceremony this is supreme from France. 

In reply to pencilled in:

It's not fair!!!!

Both teams playing a totally different game to England

In reply to pencilled in:

The rugby was typical of a first game in a major tournament - lots of nervousness and mistakes, possibly made worse by the high temperatures.
France looking good, but the score differential perhaps hides New Zealand's potential.
What happened with the anthems?  Not sure if my TV coverage was somehow out of synch, but they were absolutely awful.
The ITV coverage is absolutely dire, no passion and no real attempt to engage with the game that is about to start.  Instead, they insisted on boring in-depth studio analysis from the likes of Jonny 'Jumpers for Goalposts' Wilkinson.
Also, far too many adverts and early indications are that there is going to be an England bias to all of their coverage. 
 

In reply to FactorXXX:

Another thing, the backdrop to the weird lectern thing is obviously false. 
Are they actually in France?

In reply to FactorXXX:

Its desperately dire coverage but there we are. 
Weird seeing Paolo Odogwu in an Italy shirt, I haven’t got used to that. Namibia just weren’t fit enough despite early promise of well drilled attacking pods and lines. 
Ireland’s plan of running everything from their 22 went awry at first, but they look strong and composed. 

In reply to Christheclimber:

Amazed you seem to be writing off South Africa.

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Edit: That’s France, Ireland, New Zealand and South Africa...... 

In reply to pencilled in:

Right, so, red card, hmm, not the ideal start for England....

In reply to FactorXXX:

I tuned in 15 mins before the start of the France v NZ game. At no point did the team lineups  appear on screen, I had to go online to check. Tuned in tonight 15 mins before the start of England's game, no team lineups shown at all.  ITV really are rubbish at rugby presentation.

In reply to pencilled in:

France South Africa final for me. Hoping Scotland go well even though I'm technically English 

In reply to Wainers44:

OK, unusual tactics to play almost the entire game with only 14, but it worked. 

In reply to pencilled in:

What a dominant defensive performance that was from England. Dan Cole dominated his man throughout, great energy and timing from the likes of Earls and Tuilagi, very encouraging all round. 
Curry though let his heart manage that tackle. I still think it was borderline rugby incident but the law is the law! I hope Wales ( edit and Scotland) come through with confidence too. 

In reply to pencilled in:

Ford has obviously nudged to the top of the selection pecking order. He outscored Johnny Sexton, who scored two tries!

In reply to pencilled in:

What an absolutely weird game.
England down to fourteen and Argentina seemed to do everything possible not to capitalise on that.
Not sure if it proved if England have improved dramatically attack wise as they scored no tries and instead relied on the brilliance of Ford to kick all the points made available by Argentina's woeful performance.  Will be interesting to see if Ford retains the 10 shirt once Farrell becomes available as Ford was absolutely outstanding.
As for the ITV coverage, I assume that the other Home Nation games will have the same blanket all Home Nation commentary/punditry team as for this match... 

In reply to FactorXXX:

Sadly the Scotland game has Habana on mic with a couple of Scots.

Tight first quarter, but boy this Bok team knows how to pressurise. 

In reply to pencilled in:

Some piss poor refereeing (or lack of it) in this game. Head on head tackle on Dempsey (where's the consistency?) and a punch on Graham. Neither looked at by the refs.

In reply to drunken monkey:

Terrible reffing in Wales vs Fiji. Fiji were robbed.

In reply to sporky:

What a game though! And of all players to knock on at the end. Wales pushed their luck defending that line and Fiji got the yellow that had been brewing in the ref’s mind. Tompkins is an amazing player. 

In reply to pencilled in:

It was a great game but spoiled by the reffing. Wales got three final warnings and no card for all those fouls on their try line, and Fiji shouldn't have had that try disallowed. OK Fiji lost with that knockon but a desperate last second try wouldn't have been needed with fair reffing.

I'm going off rugby these days because it seems that in about a quarter of matches the ref decides who wins. Even if these matches aren't decided on actual ref bias (which the Fiji one was IMO), too many matches seem to hang on a single decision that can be arbitary.

In reply to sporky:

A France or Scotland follower might argue that this is not new though at least Craig Joubert has retired.

On the other hand, France and Scotland rugby fans have much to be cheerful about these days, the South Africa game aside. 

In reply to 65:

I think all professional sport share the consistency problem. (India and DRS for example, even Football which is swimming in money). It’s certainly testing our patience as ‘enjoyers of the game’. 

In reply to sporky:

Also Dan Biggar.  He needs to chill out. 

In reply to Ben Callard:

The clock had gone to red at the end of the first half and Wales tried running it our from their own line. I was screaming at the TV for them to kick it out so I don't blame Dan Biggar for getting mad.

In reply to pencilled in:

I honestly thought Jessie Kriel would have been cited by now. 🤷‍♀️ 

In reply to pencilled in

Looks like he's going to get away with it. https://www.the42.ie/jesse-kriel-citing-6165928-Sep2023/

I also thought Wales were Lucky to get away without a second yellow. In fairness to the ref however, I think he gave Wales one (not three) final warning and, at the first Wales infringement after this (albeit some time later) he did card Domachowski. I thought the Fijian yellow was pretty clear cut tbh, despite the lack of earlier infringements. The maul was travelling to the try line very quickly before it was illegally brought down. 

In reply to Dewi Williams:

It was just very unprofessional, and these guys are supposed to be professionals. 

People make mistakes, but it doesn't mean you should be disrespectful. 

In reply to pencilled in:

Red red green red green green amber. 

In reply to duncan b:

Fair points, all. I must stop my subconscious support of Wales. For the record I support England. 
I don’t really know what to say about the social media backlash on the ref. He’s experienced, optics are often not fully understood (as you rightly pointed out), it’s a time of change and I just think it’s a terrible sign of the times in rugby. 
There is and has always been a consistency problem at every level. I’m not saying we should stop striving for it, but we should be more used to it by now. 
 

Still, there are some promising games for the home nations players this weekend in the main. 

In reply to Bottom Clinger:

So predictable. 

In reply to pencilled in:

Nigel Owen's "whistle watch" is always worth a watch. Supposedly the officials couldn't be 100% sure there was head contact in the Kriel incident - https://youtu.be/UUvxnpyYJ6w?si=pp6gJBhHeVYGa7wg

Incidentally, is anyone else finding the ITV coverage is little disappointing? There is often zero discussion on tactics.

In reply to duncan b:

Cheers - yeah I usually have time to check in with rational experts but I’ve hit a busy week. 
 

I feel like turning the sound down sometimes and listening to the radio sometimes. Tabloid TV at best. Occasionally I watch the pundits for a giggle. Sir Clive seems to be slurring his words slightly, he’s certainly looking like he’s reached that age of accelerated older appearance. I don’t mind Johnny Wilkinson at all; I mean I don’t really listen to what he says but that bloke has a special place in my mind and he is blanket forgiven for spouting shite. 

In reply to pencilled in:

Conversely, I’ve got loads of time for Sean Fitz, George Gregan and Rory Best who are covering the NZ Namibia game.

In reply to pencilled in:

I was just thinking the same thing. All great objective viewpoints and know what they're talking about. 

Does anyone know what happened to the Namibian centre? Got injured but none of the commentators actually said what happened, and I must have missed it on the telly, as there wasn't any replays. Not that I actually enjoy watching injuries, makes me squeemish, but just seemed odd they didn't comment on it more than "looked like a serious injury"

In reply to Derry:

Twitter suggests it’s ankle. Horrific. Best wishes to Malan for recovery. 

In reply to pencilled in:

Bring on today’s games, the Boks should have an easy game. Australia Vs Fiji is the stand out game for me. I so hope Fiji take the victory! England should beat Japan but given our recent form anything is possible!!

In reply to the sheep:

Fiji are good value so far! 

In reply to gribble:

What a start for the second half

In reply to the sheep:

Good game. Fiji doing really well 

In reply to Wainers44:

Not a good game, a great game 

In reply to pencilled in:

Wow. That was special. 

In reply to gribble:

That was awesome 

On the edge of my seat but so happy for them 

In reply to the sheep:

Great result for Fiji. Not sure it's a good result for Wales as it blows the group wide open. Wales may come to regret allowing Fiji to get 2 losing bonus points.

In reply to Dewi Williams:

Would have thought Wales were just blooming grateful not to have lost!

In reply to Dewi Williams:

Wales v Australia could be a big game.

It's a good job Wilkinson could play rugby..... listening to him discuss drop goals is like listening to a turnip discussing Proust.

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Reminded me of Captain Kirk climbing a mountain.

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

.......or maybe Proust discussing turnips?

In reply to pencilled in:

After today, this will definitely be the most anticipated game of the pools... until Scotland play Ireland if/when the Irish beat SA. Great rugby!!!

In reply to Derry:

Its a key weekend for sure. I’m gutted about DuPont. Some of the play he was pushing through was astounding against Namibia and I was settling back to the idea that since he’s such a great player, it didn’t matter if my team didn’t look like winning it, as long as I could at least drink in some genuine moments of genius on the greatest stage in knockout rugby. Sadly no. And that’s a real shame for rugby, almost as much of a shame as Eddie Jones continuous testosterone spout. 

In reply to pencilled in:

Smith always looks so good against tier 2 opposition. 

In reply to pencilled in:

This one’s a cracker - let’s see what the new pack achieves 

In reply to Dr.S at work:

Furlong really well targeted at scrum and obvious disarray at line out and still they took their chance. Coupled with some high energy, disciplined defence, this side look fantastic.

In reply to pencilled in:

Zombie!

In reply to pencilled in:

Best game of the tournament so far. Total commitment.

In reply to DizzyT:

England v Chile is the best game thus far.
Seriously? 

In reply to FactorXXX:

I think Dizzy's referring to the Ireland / S.Africa game. France / NZ was pretty good, but this was nail-biting quality stuff between two teams that deserve to be 1 and 2 in the world.

Go Ireland!

In reply to Welsh Kate:

Wow, Aussie's are out. Eddie J is in for a slating back home. Just seen him being interviewed. Remarkably humble for him.

Great result for Wales though, building momentum nicely. 

In reply to Derry:

To be fair to Eddie, he is pretty humble in defeat. 
 

Awesome from Wales.

In reply to Derry:

It was a remarkably stress-free evening for this Wales supporter! We never looked like losing and though Australia were pretty rubbish that was partly because we made them pretty rubbish through a dominant performance in pretty much every aspect of play.

I've always rated Gareth Anscombe, he was a fab player for Cardiff for years, and I told his dad that when he drove me to the airport in his cab a couple of months ago! He did a brilliant job tonight taking over at outside half. What a great dilemma for Gatland if Biggar's fit for the quarter final!

In reply to Welsh Kate:

The boyos certainly did a number on a very lacklustre Aussie side, didn't they ? Good to see.

In reply to pencilled in:

Wales were very good but Australia were pathetic by the second half. (They were about as bad as when I saw Andrew Sheridan demolish so many Aussie front rowers that it went to uncontested scrums.) I think Skelton would have helped them  but that's just the way it goes in a long tournament....injuries and suspensions etc.

I was interested to hear comments along the lines that rugby union is struggling really badly / worse than previously against league and Aussie Rules. This result will hardly have helped!

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Compared to League and Aussie Rules, Union's always been a minority interest down there.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

The Wallabies needs this. Australian rugby needs it too. Suddenly the Lions tour is looking  a bit incidental, like that idiotic Woodward-led trip to NZ. 

In reply to FactorXXX:

I guess if you're saes it's probably nice to see a big score or something? 

In reply to ianstevens:

Always! I don’t think that’s was what the OP meant though.

I’m looking forward to the hilarious England vs Wales final as two teams down and out six months ago somehow spawn there way through.

In reply to Dr.S at work:

Its knockout rugby after all! And it’s turning into a wonderful tournament too. I think it’s still pretty open given the fluctuating conditions. 
I’m looking forward to DuPont as phantom of the opera. 

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

I don't know if I agree with you,  but that gave me a real, cathartic belly laugh. 

In reply to pencilled in:

I used to play rugby rather reluctantly between the age of 7 and 23, inevitably second row scrum and  trying to look keen but making sure I didn't get caught up where the action was, at least when I was at school. Now I've been watching these matches and realized what a superb game it is, but for one thing. There seem to be far too many penalties, and with the extraordinary standard of a set piece kick far too many matches are being won by these penalties. It strikes me they count too high. I'd like to know what the experts think. For me a solution would be to reduce from two to one and a half points. The idea of half points would certainly be considered radical, but why not?

Please, this is a genuine enquirer and I'd like to hear what others think.

In reply to jcw:

I think there is an argument that this would result in fewer kicks at goal, but more penalties .

If a penalty is kickable, it is the defending team that has committed the offense. Often these decisions are based on narrow margins, slightly offside, slowing the ball down etc. in an attempt to prevent a try  If you reduce the value of a penalty kick, you would just make it more likely that defending teams would commit penalties. 

In reply to RobAJones:

Well thank you for your reply which does not convince me of the relative value of a proper try.,nI've just turned on the present match  and all I ca n hear is encore une pénalité . And the  usual UKC unexplained down ticks with no explanation to a perfect genuine enquiry. I've turned both the TV and UKC off.

In reply to jcw:

I am watching the game with German commentary, but I'm pretty sure there were four tries in the first half and only one penalty kick? Reading the report the earlier  game had 8 tries and 1 penalty??

Mrs J has just suggested I do the same. 

In reply to jcw:

Historically, the value of a try relative to a penalty has been gradually increasing. Maybe put a try up to 6 or 7! This from wikipedia:

"Historically, no points at all were awarded for a try, the reward being to "try" to score a goal (to kick the ball over the cross bar and between the posts). Modern points scoring was introduced in the late 1880s, and was uniformly accepted by the Home Nations for the 1890/91 season.

The balance in value between tries and conversions has changed greatly over the years. Until 1891, a try scored one point, a conversion two. For the next two years, tries scored two points and conversion three. In 1893, the modern pattern of tries scoring more was begun, with three points awarded for a try, two for a kick. The number of points from a try increased to four in 1971 and five in 1992.

Penalties have been worth three points since 1891 (they previously had been worth two points). The value of the drop goal was four points between 1891 and 1948, three points at all other times"

In reply to jcw:

A penalty is worth three points and not two which is perhaps an indicator that you don't actually follow Rugby on a regular basis and perhaps don't understand it.
With regards to most modern games, the generally accepted ethos is that if you don't score Tries, then you probably won't win.  This is further enhanced by the Bonus point awarded for scoring four Tries in a game which encourages teams to kick for touch, etc. as opposed to kicking for a goal.
I believe that in this World Cup, the winning teams have generally won by scoring more Tries than their opponents and haven't beaten a better side by simply having a better kicker.
One possible outlier is England vs Argentina, where Ford basically won the game by kicking Drop Goals.  Then again, that was probably equally lost by Argentina by being so rubbish. 
 

In reply to FactorXXX:

When England won it in 2003, against the better teams they scored less than one try per game. Impressive strength and discipline, and Wilkinson’s kicking , won it. Boring though. 

In reply to Bottom Clinger:

and twenty years later, Wilkinson and Woodward are still managing to be boring. 

In reply to jcw:

No idea why you are getting all the dislikes. It is a very valid point for discussion and the fact that the scoring has changed over the years shows that it has always been considered something worth thinking about.

In reply to Robert Durran: and others thank you . Indeed, as I pointed out, I have only just discovered the pleasure of watching rugby and am not au fait with the modern rules. My eyesight is such that I can't read the scoreboard and assumed a penalty was the same as a conversion. What I think I'm reacting to is the unrelenting massacre in games of unequal matching due to the luck of the draw of courageous little opponents who make mistakes inadvertently and pay literally a merciless penalty. But then I suppose that's the downside of a professional game and when we reach the final sets of matches that disproportion will disappear . Anyhow I'll start watching again and enjoying it in the final stages

In reply to jcw:

I think the downvotes might be because you said, "perhaps they should be downgraded from 2 points to 1 1/2 points" whereas a penalty kick is worth 3 points. Technical inaccuracy brings out the pettiness in everyone, including me, sorry. *edit: just saw this mentioned above.

I remember the days of the 4 point try and conversion = 6 points, with my (perhaps wrongly) main understanding that it was increased to 5 points so that a converted try was worth more than 2 penalties. 

I must admit I'm a fan of the Rugby League scoring. 4 points try, 2 points conversion, 2 points penalty and 1 point drop goal; in the fact I like a drop goal option being used to win a tight match at the end of the 80 rather than throughout the game (queue the downvotes for me from George Ford's fans).

In reply to jcw:

In most of the one-sided matches between Tier 1 nations and Tier 2 nations*, the points differences have been due to the very large numbers of tries being scored. For example, Scotland scored 12 tries against Romania with no points from penalties, New Zealand scored 14 against Italy (not a Tier 2 nation, but a comprehensive drubbing), again with no points from penalties, England scored 11 tries against Chile, and again with no points from conversions. In such one-sided games, teams and individual players see the opportunities to boost their own points tallies by scoring tries and conversions, in preference to the lower points haul from kicked penalties. 

It's more likely that points from penalties form a more significant proportion of the points tally in more evenly matched games. In these games, tries are harder to come by, and points from kicked penalties are a safer way of gaining points. 

*There are 11 Tier 1 nations - the European Six Nations, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Japan and Argentina. Tier 2 nations are the next rung down in the world rankings. 

Strictly speaking, the Tiers have been replaced by World Rugby's performance and development status classifications, but Tier 1 and Tier 2 is a useful shorthand for the teams playing in the World Cup. 

I haven't read the whole thread but ....the higher the points for a try, the bigger the incentive to transgress to avoid one being scored against you. We see this all the time already with multiple collapses, offsides etc within 5 metres of the try line. Ask the Fijians who played against Wales! The real deterrent here is to sin bin someone sooner as, on average,  teams concede more than 7 points when down to 14 men.

In reply to Welsh Kate:

Defineyetly! 

I can still remember vividly my disappointment when you guys beat us in 1987 (yous got a crap England and crushed them in the quarters and a good Australia whipped us!), when I was 16. I will shed tears of joy if Ireland get to the semis (36 years is a long time to wait for anything!). Contrast with both Irish teams in football is huge (Northern Ireland in '82 and us [Republic!] in '90)!

In reply to Mark Bannan:

Quiet Mark please. I don’t know if you jinxed it, nah, just about got away with it I think.

In reply to pencilled in:

Somewhat on subject, has anyone else listened to the latest real science of sport podcast on rugby laws? Really interesting stuff. Particularly regarding the motivation for law changes (foremost for player welfare but also to help the game as a spectacle) and how they are tested prior to being accepted or rejected.

Contrary, to what I regard to be the public perception, rugby now is far more free flowing than it was in the 70s and 80s when measured against all metrics - total ball in play time, average play time between stoppages, fewer number of set pieces etc.

https://shows.acast.com/realscienceofsport/episodes/the-most-fascinating-ex...

In reply to duncan b:

yep…. With obvious consequences to the players of such a noble game…

In reply to Mark Bannan:

To be fair, I have dual nationality so am very enthusiastically supporting Ireland as well!