UKH

Hello, I am posting here because the actions of a few inexperienced people who were likely climbers. This is not for the majority of respectable climbers out there.

To those who have cut bolts on canyoning descents, or just cut bolts in general, well done. All you have achieved is further damage, further bolting and upset people. Cutting bolts does not remove the bolts. There are methods and tools to do that properly.

There is no denying this descent will only be bolted again. These bolts could have been removed properly, and if you'd gone down the correct route and the land owner requested their removal then it might not have not encourage someone to rebolt it.

I am prepared to remove bolts properly should this be the right course of action. If you damage canyon descent without consulting the community and the land owner you are only going to encourage retaliation and there has been talk of it.

Bolts have been placed on canyoning descents for a number of reasons. Most canyoneers, also have a background in tradition rock climbing and prefer natural anchors over bolting. However occasionally bolts are placed where natural anchors are inadequate, or for ecological reasons to reduce damage to flora through clean lines, or to protect from sharp rock damage. You can't leave traditional rock gear behind unless you are planning on retrieving it quickly as it doesn't last long.  It is estimated well placed quality bolts can last upto and over 200 years. Bolts can be removed holes patched up or replaced, especially glue in bolts which are very easy. If you chop bolts then this becomes extremely difficult/ impossible to do. I understand a lot of you don't like bolts and that is understandable, I don't believe they belong in certain locations either, especially when there are other options. But there is a time and a place. If you don't own the rock it's not your responsibilty to take extreme damaging actions.

I'm not going to respond to any comments on here, too many crazies and discussions are rarely constructive. If you do have anything constructive to say please get in touch. Any abuse will be reported.

I haven't mentioned the location for the reason you don't need to know.

Thank you for reading this.

In reply to Sol Armer:

So which established rock route have you bolted then? 

In reply to Sol Armer:

Canyoneering?

In reply to Sol Armer:

*opens popcorn*

In reply to Sol Armer:

What's the point of canyoning - isn't it just wet abseiling?

In reply to Sol Armer:

The extreme damaging actions started with a Hilti.

Am I right in thinking that the inexperienced people pay money to go down this canyon?

In reply to Removed User:

I think it is one of those "sports" which has been invented by the outdoor industry so that it can then be marketed.

In reply to Sol Armer:

Was the landowner's permission granted for the bolts in the first place?

In reply to Sol Armer:

If it's some of the bolts I've seen despoiling various gills in the Lakes then good riddance. If they weren't left fully rigged with in-situ ropes and belays then I might be slightly more sympathetic (but not much).

In reply to Sol Armer:

Hi there. with the location not being given, won't there be a risk of the people this is aimed at not realising that it's about them?

In reply to Sol Armer:

We climbers are a touchy bunch. We hate bolts placed to facilitate any other kind of sport yet we are quite happy to bolt the F*** out of a whole area if we decide it is ok.

And then there is the loose block trundling, "gardening" and chalk smears all of which affect the natural appearance of the rock, possibly making it more unsightly to others.

On the same note we moan about loud vehicles such as motorbikes in Cheddar Gorge yet accept loud shouting in remote mountain settings.

Climbers do not have a unique right to enjoy the cars and mountains

In reply to Lankyman:

Yep - the countryside isn't there for the outdoor industry to despoil in the name of profit.

The action of the bolter needs community consent, the action of the debolter only needs this if community consent was agreed for the bolting in the first place.

In reply to Sol Armer:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/148214435228570

Anybody know why all the bolts have been cut from dungeon ghyll?? Got in at the bottom of the top section to find bolts have been cut? TIA

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Ben Bryant

Narrow minded nobs , old school mentality, with no thought that other people might use the venue. I bet they haven’t got the balls to say it was them.

Plus it’s then turns into a gamble each time you go out not knowing if the bolts will be there. And…

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Matty Terry

Ben Bryant Couldn't agree more mate, were gutted. Still in the ghlyy trying to do as much as we can with natural anchors available. Will post pics of cut bolts later

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Dave Clark

Unbelievable! This needs to be on the Freelance Outdoor Instructors forum.

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Matty Terry

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Col Dobbo

Matty Terry That sucks

 · 3 h

Matty Terry

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Matty Terry

All bolts cut from halfway point unsure about top section but I assume they will have been cut too

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Ben Bryant

Thanks for the update, they haven’t even removed them properly! Leaving them sticking out wankers. First time it’s happened in the lakes. What a shame. I love that canyon. Would like to know who did it .

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Matty Terry

Ben Bryant Yeah mate most of them left the same way. Such an annoyance

 · 21 h

Matty Terry

Left some tat on this abseil for people to ab off and left other kit further up

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Gareth Wood

What a pointless thing to do. I doubt the coward will own up.

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Greg Wilks

Calm down and bolt everywhere

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Sol Armer

Thanks for the update! I've shared the photos i hope you don't mind.

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Matty Terry

Sol Armer No problem bud apreciate the work your doing!

 · 19 h

Jack Overhill

Sol so wonder we never found them

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George Yates

It’s a real shame this is happening, as Ben Bryant said it’s old school mentality, and obviously people who have no idea about canyoning sustainability or safety. Canyoning has developed so much over the past 15 years and unfortunately this ‘Old Guard’…

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Ben Bryant

George Yates real shame . We don’t know who it was . Could be more canyons to come ?

 · 5 h

Col Dobbo

Ben Bryant I hope not mate. There are some real crackers in the Lakes. And it would suck for all those who have invested time and money into developing them

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Chucky Davison

We should go bolt some climbing routes instead. If you need a hand putting any back Ben Bryant im good at holding ladders!!

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Ben Bryant

Chucky Davison I’m not getting involved this time . Someone else’s fight this time

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Chucky Davison

Ben Bryant you can do it one more time. It will be just like the Rocky movies!!

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Christopher Brown

Honestly can’t figure what kind of person has the time to be this petty. Might have to set up a stake out camp in Fisher Place for a bit

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Greg Wilks

Christopher Brown will be the old goat blowing crag police mate

In reply to Sol Armer:

Is DG not an SSSI? So perhaps not the best place to be placing bolts or abseiling in the first place?

Edit, yes it is:

https://designatedsites.naturalengland.org.uk/PDFsForWeb/Citation/1000119.p...

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

So is Malham Cove... 

(Not got a dog in this fight but SSSI doesn't necessarily preclude types of use. Permission pending).

In reply to Sol Armer:

Wow. Is it really true? Climbers are so against climbing on bolts they  don’t want other people doing a completely different activity to use bolts?

That’s getting a bit totalitarian for me... so much so I can barely let myself believe that’s the case. I’m thinking it’s more likely a disgruntled landowner or somebody else with a vested interest?

If it is a climber on here, then please accept my sincere apologies, for you are a complete knob.

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Agreed, I didn't suggest it did, but it should be respected and not damaged, especially if it's plant life that has attracted the application of an SSSI

In reply to Iamgregp:

I cant imagine for a moment it's a climber that has done this, i would suggest its one of their own, how would a climber even know there are there in the first place! It's hardly a logical extension to a day cragging in the Langdales!

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

Yeah, we're on the same page. I was extending your point a little further rather than disputing it. 

I'm fairly sure that NT own the ghyll. Their permission is, if not specific, probably tacit. The numbers of coaches/minibuses with clients spilling out can't have gone unnoticed. 

In reply to Sol Armer:

Irony level over 9000

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

LANGDALE please!!!!! There’s only one dale. Don’t pluralise it unnecessarily. 

In reply to ianstevens:

Erm, Great Langdale, Little Langdale ?

In reply to ianstevens:

Well...

“Great Langdale is a valley in the Lake District National Park in North West England, the epithet Great distinguishing it from the neighbouring valley of Little Langdale”

In reply to ianstevens:

Well, there is/are Great and Little Langdale. Two of something often justifies an s.

On the bolts, climbers have, sort of, sorted out their differences through their representative body, the BMC. Canyoners should bring this up with the BMC local/national area meetings, and their representative body if one exists.

Regarding Fisher Place Ghyll, in 2016 I was working at the base (and top)  of the ghyll all summer.  There was only one party, man and son, who abbed the ghyll in that time.  The bolting looked pretty amateurish from a climbers perspective.

In reply to ianstevens:

Yes. It’s painting the “canyoneering community” in a pretty poor light when the Facebook group set up for canyon guides has a comment on it advocating retaliation against people engaged in a different activity based on no evidence whatsoever. Was this comment called out by anyone? 

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

I hope you’re right. And I hope whoever did do this is big enough to own up to it and explain themselves 

In reply to Sol Armer:

For anyone who really wants to read more on this, there is a thread on Rock Climbing UK / Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/RockClimbingUK/?post_id=3269605323092040&am... 

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Is the "canyoneering community" any more than the instructors who have commercialised this activity? I think the issue here may be bolting for purely commercial reasons. In which case comparisons with climbing bolts is not relevant (though there is the issue of commercial bolting of routes in the Alps purely to popularise huts).

In reply to Mark Kemball:

I can see why he announced he wouldnt be replying to anyone who dared disagree with him as that thread is a complete carcrash.

In reply to Sol Armer:

That Facebook thread is painful to read. The OP has made himself look a right conch with his replies. 

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

Did you go cragging in both?

In reply to Sol Armer:

I don't even know where to begin with this.

You are a wigwam and you are bad at proof reading.

In reply to mondite:

Well I gave up quite early on trying to have a reasonable discussion on that thread and stopped following it. The guy is not doing himself any favours with his confrontational approach.

Thousands of comments later, his excessive use of the words idiot and crazies has got dozens if not hundreds of people essentially against a man who actually had a valid point, he just had absolutely no decorum in how he relayed it. Someone else pipes in, deep in the Facebook thread, what he is saying is;

Someone has come along to a well used canyoning decent line, that has had bolts for years due to its danger without them, and made a real mess in how they’ve chopped them. Not only does it now look crap, it’s a bit sketchy for people arriving at that section expecting a degree of safety in it being bolted. Bolting ethics aside, only attempt to remove bolts if your competent at doing so in a proper and minimally destructive manner. 
 

yours sincerely, 

Soloman A.

In reply to Donotello:

I don’t think the repeated threats of retaliation, including physical violence (see post by ‘Ben Ross’ on the UK canyon guides Facebook page linked upthread, which got multiple likes, troubling for a site supposedly for professionals in the field) directed towards a group (climbers) who there is no evidence were involved, was particularly helpful as an approach.  
 

I think that’s a little more than a cosmetic problem really. 

In reply to Sol Armer:

I’m curious.

By what entirely deficient thought process did you arrive at the idea this was likely done by climbers?

I’d rather spent my precious little free time at the local chossy Weardale quarry falling off rock than chopping bolts some others use to lower themselves down a little waterfall.  If I did a survey of my climbing friends I doubt any of them would want to get their gear filthy wet chopping bolts on a waterfall either.  The Mrs doesn’t like it when I clean my rope off in the bathtub, and bolts on a waterfall aren’t worth the risk of an unnecessary abseil.

What planet are you on?

In reply to wintertree:

As far as I can tell from the Facebook posts, the “thought process” went something like this:

”We’ve heard that climbers don’t like bolts. Someone chopped our bolts. Therefore it must have been climbers! Now, let’s call them names and threaten to bolt some rock climbs, or beat them up!” <cue cheering>
 

they don’t seem a very endearing bunch. 

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Neither side, climbers nor these canyon folk exactly come across in any form of a decent light in any of these arguments, seems to bring the angry teenager out of both sides.
 

I also don’t feel like belittling their hobby (‘lowering down a little waterfall’) helps, plenty of stuff in rock climbing (lacing up a v diff with gear etc) that comes across a bit pansy from other perspectives too but it doesn’t help to put someone else’s hobby down. 

In reply to ianstevens:

I'm not sure what to say to that really as their is crags in both, but anyway, moving on.

In reply to Donotello:

I asked him on the FB thread if taking people down ghylls was his job, he was pretty coy in his response but yes he does. Imagine his situation then on abseiling down with a couple of novices to find no bolts and they're all looking at him for the answer. Or maybe he had some work lined up and heard the bolts were gone and had to refund.

The indiscriminate spraying of insults / threats don't help his case but it's quite possible he feels his livelihood is under "attack".

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Isn't that his job? Problem solving has to be part of it

I am not sure what that has to do with UKC or the climbing facebook group he posted on. If someone removes a switch from the network in work I don't start having a go at the cleaners about improper shutdown procedures.

In reply to JoshOvki:

Quite.  Given the competing commercial interests, if I had to jump to an assumption it would be one of dirty tricks by a commercial guide who operates without fixed gear, rather than climbers or your office cleaners.  

I’d probably refrain from posting a rant at climbers or at anyone else and just post a factual comment to see what came back...

In reply to JoshOvki:

I'd agree, but to be a "canyoneering guide" probably doesn't take much of an apprenticeship, if you get my drift.

Thinking further, is it possible the landowner has got cold feet about companies guiding people down ghylls - there are more objective dangers in a gulley, would the landowner think there was a duty of care / liability issue and so chop bolts?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I know this post will be unpopular for emotional reasons, but try to set these aside and answer my questions. Note that I am not interested in the ethical debate of whether or not we should protect rock climbs with bolts. Also, please don't obfuscate with environmental concerns because climbers really don't hold the moral high ground here, and anyway bolts are the most environmentally friendly solution for abseil anchors.

Question 1: Why is a bolt placed for your pleasure any different than a bolt placed to enable someone to work?

Question 2: Why is your pleasure any more relevant than that of a group of people paying a guide to take them down a canyon?

In reply to Donotello:

Fair points. The climbers on the Facebook page didn’t need much encouragement to descend to insults. 

In reply to Big Bruva:

Because the motivations are different. I would simply always be wary of arguments which might have the ulterior motives of commercial interest behind them.

It's not. The difference is in the commercial interests of the guides and the non commercial interests of others. 

I am similarly wary of the motivations of climbing guides - the direction an activity takes should not be driven by commercial interests.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Has it been clarified if the bolts were placed with the landowner’s permission yet? I think it was established that the bolts were in Dungeon Ghyll, so the landowners would be the National Trust. There was a comment to the effect that ‘they must have been aware’, but not sure one more group would be noticed among all the others setting off from the car park.
 

it would certainly explain the otherwise bizarre refusal to specify where the incident happened if they were placed without permission. Perhaps someone with a guided canyoneering background could help clear this point up. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

Why do you label earning a living an 'ulterior motive'? Are you suggesting that your motivation of deriving pleasure from climbing is more worthy than that of someone earning a living?

In reply to Big Bruva:

I am simply saying that an activity should be driven by those doing it for its own sake rather than those seeking to make money from it. Those making money should go along with the activity as it evolves "naturally". I don't know what the situation is with canyoning, but I suspect that it is largely commercially driven.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Funny thing language. If you substitute 'doing it for its own sake' with 'deriving pleasure', and 'commercial interests' with 'earning a living' you can play around with the value system. Am I right in thinking you have had quite an easy ride when it comes to 'earning a living' and so have the luxury of being able to take a dim view of 'commercial interests' in your preferred activity? I doubt you take the same view on aviation!

For what its worth, I agree that commercial interests can be a negative influence, selling arms to repressive governments for example (although that said giving them away would be no better!). However, I struggle to see how you can find a negative aspect to a professional guide placing a reliable abseil anchor in a canyon so they can go there with a group of clients.

In reply to Big Bruva:

I don't think it's helpful to make comparisons with the arms trade if whatever. Climbing is essentially a leisure activity. Instructors and guides should respect how it had developed as a leisure activity.

You'd have to ask the people who do canyoning for fun. I don't really have a view. If it is entirely a commercial thing then I'm not really bothered.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Ah ok, I'd got the feeling that you were denigrating canyoning and, in particular, the commercial side of it. Personally I've been climbing for 35 years and would only abseil down a canyon with a gun to my head, however there is an element of entitlement and cultural snobbism in the climbing community which riles me. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

I am bothered in fact worried about the commercial side of Canyoning, Gorge Walking etc. I just hope that they are aware of the environmental damage they cause the often very rare flaura and fauna. I see from the OP's Facebook posts that he is exploring new venues in North Wales, I'm ok with someone having an adventure but hope he's not got a commercial motive in doing so....

In reply to Big Bruva:

I am uneasy about all commercialisation of the outdoors. 

In reply to Big Bruva:

The big difference with canyoning and gill bashing / scrambling is that generally in ascent folk avoid anywhere with plants and soil, sticking to the rock. Canyoning folk just thrash down any where, so the environmental damage can be high. There are plenty of gills that rarely see a sheep never mind a human, simply because of steep sides, over grown and completely unviable as a scramble. But they could be destroyed as habitats if some idiot starts throwing ropes down them. 

If folk really want to descend in water go caving, classic pull through trips like swinsto are perfect for this. It's even fully rigged with bolts(many years ago) so you don't even need a spanner. 

In reply to Lankyman:

The bolts in Swarthbeck ghyll had spread to the nearby boulders creating a kind of via ferrata type of set up. The bolts from these boulders have now been removed.

In reply to summo:

Actually, the vast majority of UK crags were covered in vegetation before climbers got rid of it. Winter climbing is particularly damaging in this respect.

In reply to Big Bruva:

Eh? No its not, unless you enjoy climbing unfrozen turf.

I'm happy to be an elitist snob on this one but abbing down lake district gylls off bolts sounds a shite activity.

In reply to Big Bruva:

That's a different argument, we are talking about gills and gullies. Plenty crags still have masses of vegetation between routes and areas with no viable routes on are just left and remain grown over. 

Winter I would agree and think some crags should have climbing bans or certain areas where climbing isn't allowed winter or summer. We are quick to protect a single bird's nest, but often do nothing for countless other forms of life. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

Those pesky merchants of the temple! If we've entered the realm of belief then there is little point in reasoning.

However, bear in mind that other religions exist and livings must be earned...

In reply to Big Bruva:

I think you need to also see the bigger picture here, it's easy to forget how much we take acess for granted, often to very sensitive areas. The NT (who probably own this unnamed ghyll) are always trying to monetise there properly, this can seriously affect other users. There proposed charges for commercial groups a few years ago had pretty serious implications for lots of freelance instructors and they used to make life very difficult for group access to coastal cliffs in N pembroke. If they saw a large commercial operation (potentially causing lots of damage) on their doorstep I would expect them either to start again talking about taking a cut (to me thin edge of the wedge on acess) or clamp down. 

I reckon the most likely choppers arnt climbers but other outdoor professionals with some skin in the game

It's not about stopping commercialisation is about striking a sustainable balance.

In reply to Robert Durran:

That raises huge issues doesn't it? To me the whole point of climbing (or sailing, which I've now taken up as an old age substitute) is self reliance and the acquisition of skills and experience - which you can only get one way. Having said that. I haven't been prepared to learn ski touring avalanche safety by trial and error, so it's all a question of degree really.

In reply to Big Bruva:

I'm not against their existence per se. I would just always maintain a healthy scepticism about their views on how the outdoors and the activities they exploit should be developed.

In reply to ebdon:

I find it quite incredible that climbers are deluded enough to believe that hacking their way up vegetated cliffs with spikey tools is less damaging to plant life than abseiling down a waterfall from glue-in bolts.

In reply to Big Bruva:

I take it winter climbing is not somthing you indulge in?

As a keen winter enthusiast I can assure you in good conditions very little vegetation is damaged, If it was it wouldn't take many ascents for somthing to become unclimbable. In bad conditions you can really trash stuff but this is also very scary and dangerous so fortunately a bit of a barrier. There you go, every days a school day!

In reply to PaulW:

Absolutely (though I'd prefer it without the unnecessary expletive).

I've descended the top section of the DG at the end of a wet scrambling day (during a climbing long weekend). It's interesting, even enjoyable, but it's not climbing. Why should we (climbers) claim any right to decide whether bolts should be placed in canyoning or caving terrain? We surely wouldn't expect canyoners or cavers to arbitrate on whether to bolt Gimmer. 

Ultimately it's the landowner's decision, but in practice, if an activity is permitted, then we should probably let the representatives of that activity decide.

Martin

In reply to Martin Hore:

Not sure anyone here as said it shouldn't have been bolted have they?

In reply to ebdon:

I"ve been winter climbing since 1985, but thanks anyway! 

Maybe your own ascents in prime conditions do little damage but x1000, really? Of course we can mitigate the damage by climbing the routes when they are bare of snow, but then the guardians of the temple complain that conditions are not acceptable!

I actually think the rewards from climbing are worth the environmental damage, I just wish climbers were more honest about it and weren't so judgemental and condescending about other activities and other users.

In reply to Sol Armer:

Dear all. What a bunch of elitists us climbers appear to be!  Fairly sure these Canyoners respect their environment just as much as we think we do. If they trashed it as much as some folk think then they would end up out of a job coz the National Trust would simply ban it. When I first started reading this thread I thought I agreed with chopping the bolts but I’ve done a 100% u turn. I’ve been up every Ghyll in Langdale, mainly as a paid instructor and it makes sense to bolt some ab stations for canyoning.

I  checked the NT campsite website. They work with a company called Mere Moutains who, amongst other things, run canyoning they trips so I doubt very much the NT are against canyoning and I would take a punt that they would not be against a couple of bolts here and there. 
And any winter climbers who think damage is almost zilch are delusional. Bow fell Buttress is scratched to hell and many routes are climbed out of nick. Loads. 
I think canyoning looks good fun and the folk in be seen after they’ve done appear to have had a brilliant time. Caving is no substitute, totally different. 
And if folk can make a living out of it, good on them. 

In reply to mick taylor:

I don’t really disagree- but I’m not convinced by the ‘if the NT knew about the bolts they’d be fine with them’ argument. If the NT knew about the bolts, I’m pretty sure Sol Armer would have made that central to his case for why the bolts should stay. The fact that he’s been so cryptic about the location implies to me that not only don’t they have permission for the bolts, they don’t think they’ll get it if they ask (maybe even they asked and were told ‘no’). 
 

i wouldn’t have a problem in principle with some low lying gills being bolted for this- I see there are established winter and scrambling routes in dungeon ghyll but there are few logged ascents, so perhaps it would be a good choice for this sort of thing. I could even be tempted to have a go, and my kids would probably love it. 
 

But as others have pointed out, it’s also an SSSI, and I’d expect the NT would have a wider view on its suitability, which it’s really not clear has been sought. 
 

Again, the Canyoneering instructor community is aware of this thread- perhaps one of their number can clear the matter up? 

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Aye, be good for someone to clear NT and bolt thing up.

To provide a perspective: 17 pegs on the nearby Trilogy, doubt anyone asked permission and I’m sure NT know about this (and many other) pegs. 

In reply to mick taylor:

I completely agree. Bolts in that Ghyll (which probably has a Group in more often than not when I'm there) seem like a good idea. Just as we have bolts on top of 'instructor' crags elsewhere.

I'd be very surprised if a climber did this though. I'm not spending my free time in a Ghyll chopping bolts and am puzzled as to who might be. Haven't we all got better things to do? (Like arguing on here 😀 ) 

That said, if you come to the forum with a post like the OP, don't expect a friendly welcome! 

In reply to mick taylor:

Not any more there isn't!  There is about six left, the rest were fairly well removed, to provide natural placements.

In reply to Dan Arkle:

I think the term you are looking for is "enhanced" if we are being generous, "chipped" if not. About as natural as a drilled hole perhaps? 

In reply to ebdon:

People use that Ghyll for scrambling too, so may be used as belays.  That sound slightly less shite?

In reply to Iamgregp:

Well scrambling up ghylls sound less shite, possibly even quite fun. I cant really comment on the bolts as I've no idea where this is or the local situation. 

In reply to ebdon:

Crampon scrapes all over popular cliffs? And that’s before you mention dry tooling damage

In reply to Philb1950:

Allthough I clearly have different ideas as to how much damage to vegetation winter climbing does to some people, and perhaps there right I was being deliberately combative yesterday. Dry tooling is not winter climbing and plants don't care about scratches. These are two totally irrelevant points.

With regard to the thread I shall differe  to Mick Taylors judgments above whitch seems sensible as I've realised I'm arguing about somthing I don't know anything about (ghyll abseiling) in an unknown location.

I still think abseiling is not a valid pastime though!

In reply to ebdon:

Abseiling as a past time is just as equally pointless as climbing. 

In reply to ebdon:

Keep it hush, but absolutely years ago before I had started climbing I went out on a Ghyll Scramble with an outdoor co. up this very Ghyll.  It was bloody brilliant, though I don't think I've ever been as cold in my life!

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

I think we will have to agree to disagree there.

In reply to Iamgregp:

God I would love to be in a ghyll right now, its soooooo hot, if only there was some sort of easy way of accessing them.....

In reply to ebdon:

Bare Ghylls are best

In reply to ebdon:

God me too, just the thought of being in that cool, fresh flowing water!!!

Precious few accessible Ghylls in my part of East London! 

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Many things humans do can be seen as pointless once enjoyment is removed. They both have some environmental impact, and they're both pointless if they're not being enjoyed, I dare say. Climbing does increase one's strength and flexibility, and can create a sense of achievement in the way that abseiling potentially doesn't. In a human development sense, climbing could be argued to have more point to it, but as far as the human struggle to survive goes in sourcing food and what have you, they're probably both fairly pointless.

In reply to Timmd:

Well yes in a nihilistic sense what's the point of anything in this brief painfully existence. Everyone we ever love will die, our meaningless lives will be quickly forgotten, all the bolts will rust away and be chopped. 

So amongst all this drudgery and dispare I ask you why go abseiling? You may as well admit theres nothing left and you're just counting down the minutes to your slow inevitable death*

Not at all like climbing which is ace.

*this is also true of jigsaws**.

** don't tell my wife I said that as she likes jigsaws and goes off on one when I try to explain the truth to her.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Amen to that!

In reply to ebdon:

I did include that if one removes enjoyment from them, they're both pointless, but yes indeed, climbing is ace. Maybe jigsaws help her to find a state of being centered mentally and feel at peace, through being completely absorbed in the task at hand?