UKH

Has the UK become a rogue state? It seems that it agrees to, and signs up to agreements with the EU and then breaks these agreements when the going gets difficult. Can the British government now be trusted to uphold any of its international obligations?.

This ship has sailed quite a while ago.

This will be the agreement that’s so important that the EU haven’t even got around to ratifying it yet?

That’s not really the point is it? You’re just distracting from the Government’s cavalier attitude to international treaties. 

It’s exactly the point.

The EU asks for more time to ratify a complex trade agreement and the U.K. agrees.

The U.K. wants more time to implement complex trade procedures and the EU does what?

I’d also suggest that the U.K. has a far better track record of meeting its international commitments than many countries. To suggest that the U.K. is a rogue state is nonsense.

To turn a blind eye to incipient despotism and demagoguery is a mistake, imho.

Mainly because unlike our parliament, the member states are actually going to read it.

And we had 4 years to prepare for the outcome of the oven ready deal...

Not a bad point, but notice the difference between "ratify" and "implement".

Poor attempt at distraction. To claim its ok because the UK has a better record than, say, Myanmar or Russia isnt really setting the bar very high. You are correct in that the UK is not a rogue state by any means, but it is certainly slipping down the rankings.

You mean because the politicians on both sides - EU and U.K. - agreed to a fact border control policy between N I and the U.K.  

Its plainly unworkable as regards an inland customs border .Anybody can figure that out. 
 

they need to go back to the drawing board on this one   

The U.K. has acted unilaterally. What do you expect the EU to do? You’re just going with the Government’s ‘Blame the EU’ agenda.

I agree that the U.K. is by no means a rogue state- yet. But Lord Frost is a loose cannon and should be removed. 

I agree.

I wasn’t arguing that the EU shouldn’t take its time to ratify the agreement just that both sides need to show a little give and take.

There’s no attempt at distraction on my part just a statement of the facts as I see them.

I wasn’t comparing our track record to Myanmar or Russia but to most if not all countries in the world.

The European Parliament didn't "ask" anyone for more time, they refused to ratify it before they had read, debated and voted on it.The UK were told that six months would be required.

It’s a good job that the EU never acts unilaterally with regards to NI, isn’t it?

I don’t think that accusing Frost of being a loose cannon is backed up by any facts, is it?

Of course it's not a rogue state. That's daft. 

So the EU didn’t ask for an extension then?

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-wants-more-time-to-ratify-brexit-deal-sa...

This is a Guardian opinion piece but makes the case for Frost being a dangerous maverick quite well:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/04/the-guardian-view-on-...

He’s a dangerous maverick if he’s acting of his own accord but he’s much more likely to be doing what Johnson has asked him to do.

And the Guardian article is typical of much journalism these days.

It uses facts to back up its opinions but omits any fact that might show its opinions to be wrong.

The European Comission isn't the EU.

So its Johnson that is the Dangerous Maverick?

True. 

But you have chosen not to say what facts have they missed. That’s also a sin of omission.

Semantics.

So has the EU ratified the agreement?

Oh, now I see that they are not going to ratify it until they see what the U.K. is up to.

Like they were in a hurry to ratify it before.

Yet the U.K. is supposed to implement all parts of an agreement that hasn’t been and may never be ratified by a group of countries who seem in no hurry to do so. Could it be that the EU sees ratification as something to hold over the U.K.? No, they’d never do that, would they?

Well he’s certainly a buffoon.

For an article about not wrecking the delicate political balance in NI, I thought that the Guardian article might have mentioned the EU’s handling of the Covid vaccine supply situation. Just for balance.

Yes, that is exactly what the UK is supposed to do

Signature Subject to Ratification, Acceptance or Approval

Where the signature is subject to ratification, acceptance or approval, the signature does not establish the consent to be bound. However, it is a means of authentication and expresses the willingness of the signatory state to continue the treaty-making process. The signature qualifies the signatory state to proceed to ratification, acceptance or approval. It also creates an obligation to refrain, in good faith, from acts that would defeat the object and the purpose of the treaty.

[Arts.10 and 18, Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969]

North Korea is a rogue state. We're more that state who keeps on saying they'll get a round in but always leaves before it's our turn and as a result we're starting to hear about the other states going to the pub without us.

Is the EU not bound by this treaty as well?

The U.K. is faced with a situation in NI which isn’t working yet has to continue with said situation because the other party which has the power to solve the problem refuses to negotiate and instead threatens legal action, even though they can’t be bothered to ratify the agreement which is causing the problems?

For an organisation that placed such importance on NI the EU seems happy to see the situation deteriorate.

Looking at the present Cabinet, I’d say we’re more of a rogues state

We knew what becoming a third country w.r.t. the single market would entail, before leaving. The EU have to treat us as we have demanded to be treated. We chose to leave, we knew that they would have to protect their land border with a 3rd country and we knew that the GFA requires there to be no hard border between the UK and the Republic. You broke it, you own it.

Except the U.K. doesn’t ‘own’ the NI situation. It shares the problems with the EU. And it needs their assistance to sort out the current situation. Something they seem completely unwilling to do.

Whilst not wishing to defend the breaking of treaties and agreements by anyone the EU's response to the vaccine issue both with the UK and Australia hardly sets a shining example in this regard. How about a bit of moral outrage against the EU especially from those of you who are quick to criticise the UK. Just for balance.

Al

We could rejoin the EU.

We could join the SM.

Or we could have a border in the Irish sea.

I think that covers all the options.

We chose to put a border in the sea, between different parts of the UK. What is the EU supposed to do about that? It's up to the UK to get it to work and we've had 4 years to do that.

As Mr Lopez pointed out. Yes.

It was an opinion piece. It doesn’t have to be balanced. 

I look forward to your post on ‘Why the EU is a rogue state.’

Yes

 The UK is facing a situation it has chosen to face. There were no borders before, the UK wanted to have borders, this is the unavoidable and totally foreseeable result of it. Anyone who thought otherwise is probably still of the impression the NHS has an extra 350 million a week and brexit stops muslims coming into the country. More likely people just couldn't give a f*ck what happened to the Irish.

 Any issues arising in Ireland are 100% laid on the feet of the UK, and lets not sugarcoat this, it is laid squarely at your feet.

  Any arising troubles, violence, misery or misfrotune that befalls any Irish citizen as a result of your choice is 100% on you and no one else. The Irish voted to remain. You imposed this situation on the Irish so that you can have a blue passport and make you feel a bit better about your insecurities with no thought given about the Irish people, besides putting the current shower of c*nts in charge

 The time you could try and blame the EU for the outcomes of your decisions has come to an end. The UK is now a fully independent state with no ties making its own decisions led by those you have voted to make them.

 Time to put on the big boys pants and behave like a grown up by taking responsibility of your actions instead of all this childish attempts to squirrel out of the consequences of your actions. The dog didn't eat your homework and antifa didn't storm the Capitol.

  If you were old enough to vote you are old enough to be held you responsibke for your actions, so start behaving like grown ups instead of spoiled petulant children

We're not a rogue state, but we have a rogue leader. Without the stirring Star Wars music though.

Yes

 The UK is facing a situation it has chosen to face. There were no borders before, the UK wanted to have borders, this is the unavoidable and totally foreseeable result of it. Anyone who thought otherwise is probably still of the impression the NHS has an extra 350 million a week and brexit stops muslims coming into the country. More likely people just couldn't give a f*ck what happened to the Irish.

 Any issues arising in Ireland are 100% laid on the feet of the UK, and lets not sugarcoat this, it is laid squarely at your feet.

  Any arising troubles, violence, misery or misfortune that befalls any Irish citizen as a result of your choice is 100% on you and no one else. The Irish voted to remain. You imposed this situation on the Irish so that you can have a blue passport and make you feel a bit better about your insecurities with no thought given about the Irish people, besides putting the current shower of c*nts in charge

 The time you could try and blame the EU for the outcomes of your decisions has come to an end. The UK is now a fully independent state with no ties making its own decisions led by those you have voted to make them.

 Time to put on the big boys pants and behave like a grown up by taking responsibility of your actions instead of all this childish attempts to squirrel out of the consequences of your actions. The dog didn't eat your homework and antifa didn't storm the Capitol.

  If you were old enough to vote you are old enough to be held responsible for the outcomes of that you voted for, so start behaving like a grown up instead of a spoiled petulant child

 You can start with this one https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56276653

and that is certainly worth saying more than once

It's not that long since the eu commissioner was happy to also scrap a treaty to get some vaccines. Italy is testing things some what with Australia. Sanctions have just been dropped by the usa after the eu was subsidising industry over airbus/ Boeing. Eastern Europe has been ignoring eu rules for years and when the eu tried to hold them to account, they just refused to ratify the eu budget, and the eu buckled. 

Everyone is at it. 

Yes.  

https://goodlawproject.org/update/johnson-misled-parliament/

Nobody cares that Johnson broke the ministerial code and misled parliament and it is easy to see why.  If you  Google Johnson and  ministerial code there's pages full of hits about Johnson, Priti Patel and others breaking it.   It is expected that Tories lie and break laws left right and centre.   The Brexiteers don't care that the Tories are corrupt as long as they stick it to foreigners.  Everybody else thinks they are scum already and more evidence doesn't change anything.

Contrast with Scotland.  NS is getting a total bollocking for months over allegations of a far more minor breach of the code.  Votes of no confidence are being called by the Tories and Labour will no doubt support them.

So why aren't the Scottish Tories demanding Johnson and Patel resign?   Why aren't Labour having a vote of no confidence in England when they want one in Scotland?   The Westminster system has given up, it's just taken as read the goveenment will lie and break treaties whenever they feel like it.  They even passed laws which allow them to break treaties and give spies permission to murder or rape. That's a rogue state.

That’s the problem with nation-states...

Did you read the bbc article that you linked to?

You’ll have noticed that the loyalist paramilitaries want the Agreement changed which is what the government is attempting to do.

I’m more than happy to accept that the current situation is a direct result of Brexit and you’ll do well to find anywhere where I’ve said that it isn’t.

I’m also more than happy to accept that the UK government has the responsibility to sort out the situation but it can only do that legally with the cooperation of the EU. Which appears to be sadly lacking.

So don’t complain if the UK government does whatever it takes to deal with the situation in NI. 

The UK government is the cause of the situation in NI.

We haven’t had four years to sort it out.

The EU’s insistence on having a withdrawal agreement before a future trade agreement and the UK’s acquiescence to that arrangement saw to that.

What needs to happen now is to sort out the issues not so that politicians on either side can score points but so that the people of NI can get on with their lives.

Or we could just let people suffer.

It is indeed.

Indeed it doesn’t.

But then as merely an opinion, it shouldn’t be used to support an accusation, should it?

Ping

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/05/eu-accused-of-neocoloni...

Pong

BUT, and it's a really big BUT. If the UK change the Belfast agreement (with or without the consent of the Republic) the Brexit treaty then becomes a mixed treaty. That is it is not purely a trade agreement but includes a sovereignty element. 

The European Commision has bent over backwards to avoid this because then the agreement not only has to be voted through by the European Parliament BUT ratified by all European Parliaments which for some requires a refendum. And in that case requires ALL countries vote yes. The EU countries know Boris is a blustering fool and would quite happily hang him up as an example to others and destroy his cronies, the European Parliament have got him by the balls and have only just started squeezing. They already said they won't even set a date to vote until he sorts HIS mess out. He's got until April.

He’s got until April for what?

Sorry, just re read your post.

Please ignore my post of 15.54.

Ever since Theresa May ruled out membership of the single market and the customs union this die was cast. That was near enough 4 years ago. 

Nothing was decided until everything was decided.

We're not in a court of law.

Caught up with the news eh?

😃

? I'm not sure if that quote is either apt, or accurate. In any case, which part of *WE* decided to leave don't you get? We *knew* what the GFA demands because we wrote it AND we *knew* what the EU demands of 3rd countries, because we wrote those too. The Irish sea border is a direct result of the brexit you wanted. You won, now make it work

Many UK politicians seem to have the misconception that the commission was the easy negotiation partner!

The parliament is much less inclined to tolerate bullshit.

CB

And Johnson in the last few days has simply intensified their perception of us as bullshitters.

We've got the rogue leader who is surrounded by acolytes for whom lying is a way of life as well.

Indeed, since the Singapore judgement and the Canadian trade deal the power battle has been decided in favour of the Parliament.

Unfortunately, I think most Tory MPs in Parliament are absolute spineless hypocrites who will tolerate any amount of bullshit from Johnson and his crony cabinet.

Fortunately, I suspect it will take only a small amount of Biden pressure to the Johnson balls from him to cave in to the EU when anything he does affects to GFA.

So much for taking back control!

You do wonder how much johnson will be able to resist pressure from Biden for anything Biden wants. The UK seems to have pinned it's hopes on a US trade deal.

So Jim, just to clarify, the power in the EU rests with the elected representatives rather than the unelected bureaucrats?

Hmm. Interesting. Just asking for a few friends......

It's probably fair to say the differing intepretations of the treaties have given variable power to the different parts of the EU system! But the Parliament is increasingly pissed at being seen as subservient to the Council who rather often sided with the Comission.

No. Brexit means Brexit. UK just has to deal with it.

No, this is about the withdrawal agreement which was ratified by all EU institutions quite some time ago.

The parliament ratifying the trade deal or not does not change that much at the NI-rUK border, it is mainly about whether some import duties need to be paid (which can be backtracked to Jan 1st if needs be).

You are missing my point.  I'm simply highlighting the lack of balance when these things are discussed.  I could just as easily have made the same point if the post had been about the EU breaking agreements i.e. I could and would have simply changed EU for UK.

I didn’t see why a discussion on the U.K. as a rogue state (which as I said earlier I don’t believe is true) needs balance in the shape of discussion of the EU’s faults. These are many and varied, as even staunch Remainers know, and if we were still in the EU there would be more point in discussing them.  My comment was a bit sarky I know (sorry), but I thought that it was something that would be more suited to .a separate thread

(BTW, have you seen Guy Verhofstadt giving the EU a kicking over the vaccines fiasco: 

https://euobserver.com/stakeholders/150931 

“It's our duty to be the most vocal critic, especially when Europe falls short of its potential, and of our expectations.”)

So it’s all a big fuss about nothing then?

Bit pointless if it is unworkable in the context of NI 's history and I doubt that it is in either the Uk or EUs interest to have NI kicking off because of issues on food deliveries. There is politics and there is the practicalities of it.

It was a stupid political idea to have an inland border. God knows why it was allowed to go further on all sides.

Back to the drawing board and protracted negotiations to an insurmontable issue.

Why? The state of the UK is the responsibility of the UK. The cronyism is the responsibility of the UK government. The multiple failings of the Home Office are the responsibility of the UK. The inability to look after our most vulnerable is the responsibility of the UK. Quite what any of that has got to do with the EU is beyond me. 

Then we are in complete agreement.  There doesn't appear to be anything more to be said on the subject 

It's the blind partisan nature of these discussions that really annoys me, its a form of hypocrisy and hypocrisy is one of my pet hates, possibly more than any other human failings.

There is a good case for saying that hypocrisy is inevitable in politics, and that democratic politics actually needs hypocrisy to function effectively and fairly. 

Really?  I thought the discussion was about breaking treaties with some emphasis given specifically to the UK breaking treaties. The UK is not unique in this regard but certain groups of people wish to make out that it is. The OP mentioned the EU so that was the context I responded to so I'm not sure why you don't see a connection.

Well, I agree that the current solution is a bit shitty. But it has the advantage that it parks the issue nicely into the UK's territory and leaves the EU mostly free to move on to other things. 

Better solutions involve the UK's automatic alignment with EU regulation and I don't see any will in the UK to make that work.

In my view the withdrawal agreement is very important, the trade deal not so much (still good to have, though).

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-truth-about-hypocrisy/

you must hate all of us and yourself too as we all do it

It does not really park it. It demonstrates possibly a lack of understanding on a highly charged political history in NI. I can well understand  Europeans do not really get it ( as demonstarted by the vaccine/NI/Ireland issue which blew up) and we alos struggle.

This continually evolves.

Its not a UK issue- its a tripartite agreement.

Although a remainer I actually think that Bojo is right to to this.There is trouble brewing on this within the NI Unionist community, its a way of pushing this back and negotiating.

Well the UK govt didn't bother to think it through before deciding to leave the SM etc, did they?

The UK caused the problem, the onus is on the UK to sort it.

We set the parameters here Neil, we didn't have anything forced on us. We left the single market, We stopped FoM, We want to be a 3rd country.

There are no solutions which will please the DUP, the ERG, and maintain a friction free border within the island of Ireland.

Every time you say that, a fairy dies a painful death.

Speak for yourself

Al

I live next to an inland border "post", it was a stupid idea built on political expediency to get a deal done by both sides ( there was just as much pressure on the EU to get it out of the way).NI was just pushed to the back to get it out of the way. Guess what the procedures are unworkable...surprise, surprise.. Now just give it 18 months or so to bed down and yep its fine.

I am quite relaxed about my position on the EU, there are some good points about it and some bad points. Its not all a streets paved with gold view.

And the current one aint working so back to the drawing board and negotiate.Its not hard.Get off political high horses and deal with the practical problem.

The European Parliament passes 98% of the legislation that is put before it.

Personally I'm always well disposed to people who try to get bloated inefficient and complacent beauraucracies to pull their finger out. The EU rules are just rules, not laws of physics and six months is too long. 

I voted remain by the way.

Not immediately, though, but after an increasing level of back and forth negotiation between parliament and commission. Clearly the parliament is asserting itself much more since the last two or so election cycles.

I am not particularly well disposed towards people perpetuating such propaganda. As you well know, the EU bureaucracy is so bloated that places like Munich or Birmingham employ more civil servants.

Also, the EU rules are in general rules agreed by multiple parties, and which have to be consistent. To allow a lying conman to weasel out of the rules just because he told different lies to different groups is not a clever way forward if you want to keep that system functioning.

Johnson deliberately signed internationally binding treaties, now he has to stand up to Northern Ireland and admit that he lied to them (and people in mainland UK trading with NI) about what these treaties contain and mean for future trade. Hint, it is not, as he famously declared, taking export forms and throwing them into the bin....

Clearly, no one on the EU side, except maybe the council, has any reason to help that pathological liar Johnson, who started his "journalistic" career by trying to undermine the EU through his made up reports, or that blustering fool Frost, who thinks insulting your oppo is a clever opening move.

The parliament currently enjoys holding the thumb screws and showing them to both the commission and the UK government. As a third country, there is not much you can do anymore when you stupidly allow yourself to be dragged into such an EU internal power struggle.

This could have been easily avoided had Johnson not decided to drag everything out until it was too late for parliamentary ratification anyway. Just a few weeks earlier, and it would have been the EU parliament who would have been under immense political pressure to ratify despite any misgivings.

Worth reminding people the trade agreement isn't just that. It's full title is "Trade and cooperation agreement between the European Union and the European Atomic Energy Community, of the one part, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, of the other part."

Part of which is the role of the European Court of Justice regarding the N.I. Protocol.

Wild optimism! The EU Parliament, as does the UK Parliament and the House of Lords passes everything IN the end, after hundreds of amendments and possibly legal challenges.

First, the treaty is thought to impinge on the national sovereignty of some or all EU states, in particular naturally the Irish Republic. If this is decided to be the case by the CJEU then some ( 7 if I remember correctly) are bound to hold referendums and the rest debate and pass through their own national parliaments.

Secondly after any amendments etc are approved by all parties the treaty then has to undergo legal scrutiny, that is the judiciary in all member states AND the CJEU have to agree it doesn't contravene the existing EU treaties and law. There's good reason why the EU originally allocated 18 months for the process.

It was clear 4 years ago that the NI problem would be the stumbling block and without giving NI to the Republic or establishing a hard border it is still insoluble, apart of course from remaining in the customs union but that ship is over the horizon.

Same in Westminster. The chances of a government bill gaining royal assent are about 94%.

In the case of Westminster, though, all it needs is a  government with a simple majority, and in most cases that government would be in power without even a majority of people who voted for their party.

People may or may not like the EU and that is fine. But in terms of the democratic legitimacy of the laws being made, the Westminster system is objectively far more deficient.

And ultimately, EU countries are free to leave the EU if they don’t like it, so even if you don’t like it, it has the merit of operating on consent, which is after all what democracy is all about.