UKH

We are in dispute with our builder. Currently trying for a resolution.

Today the scaffold company turned up to remove the scaffolding on instruction from the builder. 

We have already paid the builder for the roof, they stripped it the beginning of August. They did not order the trusses until Sept 22. We paid in advance for the roof, they claimed material delays. Due to the weather you can imagine what we are going through with water coming through the ceiling. The builder is saying he will come back and do the roof but not until Jan 22. We have arranged for another roofer to do the job but not included scaffolding as we have already paid for it.

We have told the scaffolder they cannot remove it. To which he is saying the builder has not paid him and will only pay him if he removes it. The scaffolder says he put the scaffold up for the builder and the builder is the only one allowed to use it. We need access to the roof when it rains to plug the holes but apparently we should not use it. 

Is this as ridiculous as it sounds? & what would you do?

In reply to Ang1310:

What form of contract did you have with the builder?

In reply to Ang1310:

Blimey, how awful.

I think I'd ask the scaffolder to give you what the builder said in writing, ask him how much he needs to keep it in place.

Sounds like a right load of shit to deal with, good luck.

In reply to Ang1310:

And yet another brand new user, registered today, with a non-climbing question

In reply to Ang1310:

Are they a member of FMB? Might be worth a go if you haven't already: https://www.fmb.org.uk/find-a-builder/dispute-resolution.html

In reply to Ang1310:

Firstly, never pay the full amount upfront, that would have been enough for me not to use them.

Also they should have left the property watertight, they shouldn't be removing a roof without being able to at least get the membrane or other protection in place when they finish for the day.

Does the builder have insurance? You need to be getting the details, and also contacting trading standards. I'd also get a solicitor involved sharpish.

Also, what are the 'holes that need plugging' when it rains?

In reply to Ang1310:

You need to be talking to a solicitor, not a climbing forum.

In reply to profitofdoom:

My first thought was, maybe an existing user not wanting to post this under their usual nom de plume.

But if you do that you should really say "don't want to post this under my usual name" etc, so maybe your cynical suspicions are justified.

In reply to Michael Hood:

It's not like they're being racist or going on about the 'plandemic'.

It doesn't cause any issues...

In reply to profitofdoom:

whats scaffold for  if not to climb?

🥳

In reply to Ang1310: 

I'd register a new account on the Screwfix forums and ask about the grade of three pebble slab. It'll save you going through the usual routine of waiting a token few days before diving into the threads you're really here for and getting banned again.

In reply to Ang1310:

Your question is tailor made for citizens advice bureau.  Call them

In reply to Ang1310:

Refuse the scaffolder entry to your premises/property etc.,  If they choose to ignore you call the police as you have a tresspasser.  It may only work until the police turn up and ask you to be reasonable etc., but it might put the scaffolder off.

In reply to Ang1310: Solicitor.  And your insurance company, and their solicitor as well to make sure they get on the case with the builders insurance company

I wouldn't really spend my energy arguing with the scaffolding contractor.  He is a subcon off the first builder. and probably not sure what to do.  I would point out to him he's likely to get a solicitors letter as well though

In reply to wbo2:

I'm curious why the scaffolder would get a letter from the OPs solicitor? He has a contract with the builder, the builder hasn't paid him, he's removing his scaffolding. I would think he's entitled to do that. The OP has no contract with the scaffolder.

In reply to Ang1310:

If the scaffold is correctly erected and tagged and on your property there is no reason at all you can’t use it. 

 In reply to muppetfilter:

So if a builder left a cement maker on your property you can use that also   Or would that be different? 

In reply to Ang1310

I don't believe you. 

In reply to muppetfilter:

Yes there is, there are a few reasons the OP can't use the scaffold, lack of a site induction for starters. Lack of a weekly check by the scaffolding company, and lack of a valid scafftag if they are in the process of removal.

These are just three reasons, there are more.

To suggest the OP is ok to use it is negligent advice

In reply to profitofdoom:

Isn’t this the off belay forum for “general non-climbing discussion” ?

In reply to Name Changed 34:

Depending on the circumstances I might well be charging them rent of a parking space.

In reply to mwr72:

The hypothetical OP can't use scaffolding in place at their own hypothetical home because of not having had a "site induction"!?  Crikey. 

If you're serious, it seems you may be somewhat institutionalised and are confusing company policies at certain workplaces with actual law.  (Which does not apply to a householder doing a DIY repair on their own roof anyway.)

In reply to mwr72:

Say what? Are they actual things on a house? Our scaffolding went up, was never looked at again until it was taken down 8 months later and myself and a bunch of other people were on it.

In reply to mwr72:

Too late to edit my last post, it isn't that I disbelieve you, I am perfectly ignorant about these things and could easily accept that things were not done by the book

In reply to JoshOvki:

Depends on the situation. If the scaffold is being used commercially it should be inspected each week. If its for DIY use do what you like. 

In reply to deepsoup:

Yes, if they are to be "on site" then a visitor induction should be carried out, this would confirm that the RAMS have been read, understood & signed, it's a legal requirement

I'm not at all institutionalised, I'm a site manager with a SMSTS, a site induction must be signed by anyone visiting site.

A valid CSCS card is at the companies discretion but RAMS are law, as is a construction phase plan, it sounds like neither could have been in place.

In reply to JoshOvki:

Yes, even on a house, a scaffold has to be proven to be safe for use by law, there will have been (or should have been) a valid scafftag upon completion of erection, it should then be inspected weekly to ensure it is still fit for purpose(people have a habit of making alterations to scaffolds when they shouldn't, regular inspections keep this in check).

In reply to Dax H:

I think in the case of the OP the scaffold has been ordered by the builder therefore it's commercial use.

In reply to mwr72:

No it was for commercial use by the builder, if he has instructed the scaffold company to remove it but the op wants to use it that's a different situation. 

In reply to mwr72:

Do you really think a jobbing builder would have produced detailed rams and a phase plan? I like to think he will have documented risk assessments for the different aspects of the job but I doubt it.

Also who should he present the Rams anyway? I doubt very much the Op would be qualified to read and accept them.

In your world and in mine there would be a qualified site manager / health and safety person / PMC who works for the principal contractor. Your not getting that from Fred the roofer down the road.

In reply to Ang1310:

Never pay full in advance.

Have a written contract. 

In reply to Dax H:

This is covered in the Domestic works section of CDM 2015. Anyway who are we posting this for? The one day poster who joined a climbing forum to talk scaffolding who has not and will never reply to this thread? (Anyone any idea what the point of this type of post/bot is? I mean I get the politically incendiary ones but this.....?)

In reply to NorthernGrit:

Just because the op is probably a bot doesn't mean we can't have a discussion.

I know CDM covers domestic too but I doubt most jobbing builders abide by it. 

In reply to Dax H:

to the HSE of course.

it's all well and good saying you were working in a safe manner so far as reasonably practical - it's another to prove it. If you're spending laborious hours writing and re-writing RAMS for work that you do every day - you're doing something (probably several) wrong.

In reply to Dax H:

No but it does put the builder or scaffolder in the frame if OP falls off/drops a hammer on someone's head - which is probably one of the reasons why they're not keen on him using it.

In reply to mwr72:

I'm not convinced that necessarily follows, it does sound a bit like the sort of institution someone could become a little bit institutionalised in tbh.

I don't follow how a legal requirement for risk assessments and method statements necessarily requires a formal site induction, but if you say it does then for the sake of argument I'll take your word for it and accept that you are correct.

Nevertheless, if a small builder working on a house subs in a self-employed plasterer for example, there will not be a formally recorded 'site induction' in their little corner of the construction industry, it just doesn't happen.  Let alone a 'visitor induction' for the actual householder who lives on the site.  A legal requirement that is widely disregarded and remains unenforced seems a bit moot.

In the case of the OP (if we assume the OP was sincere and take the post at face value) it's entirely moot since the 1974 Health & Safety at Work Act does not apply to someone doing DIY repairs to their own house, and nor do any of the other regulations that hang off it.  (Such as the Work at Height regulations, regarding regular inspections of the scaff or anything else.)

A person doing DIY in such a way that they don't have a direct duty of care to anyone else can do pretty much whatever the hell they like, perfectly legally.

In reply to deepsoup:

I think you're missing the point entirely here, the scaffold has been hired by a contractor for contractual work and not by the householder for DIY work therefore the householder can't just do "what the hell they like".

If there is an accident due to the scaffold not being complete then there are very real consequences, firstly a RIDDOR may have to be filed with the HSE, there's even the possibility of someone going to prison if an accident is bad enough.

Before you reply, remember, it's a contractor that has hired the scaffold not a householder, the contractor has numerous legal obligations which must be adhered to.

In reply to mwr72:

I think you are making a lot of assumptions about who has contractual obligations and duty of care to whom.  The scaffolder may be obliged to ensure scaffolding is safe and have certain legal obligations to both contractor and householder, but I very much doubt there is any legal reason why the householder can't access scaffolding on their property.

In reply to NorthernGrit:

The scaffolder is not in the frame as long as the scaff is not defective when it's signed off and handed over.  Those regular inspections etc. are the hirer's responsibility under the Work at Height regulations.

If the builder is no longer on the job, is the hirer and wants the scaff taken away, realistically the only way it'll stay there much longer (beyond a bit of argy bargy about the scaffer asserting their right to take it away) is if the householder negotiates with the scaffer to become the hirer.  At which point the builder no longer has anything to do with it.

Meanwhile the builder, as the hirer of the scaff, has a duty of care to prevent people from coming to harm including unauthorised persons who might be climbing on it - kids playing perhaps, or indeed the householder doing a bit of DIY, thinking he's Fred Dibnah but turning out to be Rod Hull.

However the builder can only be expected to do what is (in the words of the HSAW act) 'reasonably practicable' to discharge that duty of care.  On the kind of sites that DaxH and mwr72 work on they can build a big fence round the site and have a system of formal site inductions before they let people in, which is all well and good.  Bob the builder can't do that when the site is a house with a family currently living in it. 

He can tell the householder to stay off the scaff and take his ladder away with him at the end of each working day and that's about it.  Having done everything that is 'reasonably practicable' to prevent an accident from happening, Bob has discharged his duty of care so far as the law requires and is no longer 'in the frame' if the householder does something daft.

In the post above, mwr72 said the householder can't use the scaff but since then has only been arguing a case for why the householder shouldn't use the scaff.  Those are different things.