UKH

It's not at all great, it's an abomination and I'm sure it seems to be getting worse over the years. I've never tried going up it; feel sorry for walkers who more or less have to.

But is it a Shoot or a Chute?

OS and Harvey maps favour Chute, as does the Cicerone Cuillin traverse guide (and I think that's how I've written it before); but the SMC seem to use both Shoot and Chute interchangeably (in fact on one page of the new Scottish Rock guide there's both a Great Stone Chute and the nearby Sgumain Stone Shoot, which is also given a Chute on the accompanying map). 

I just noticed this a couple months ago in the Skye guide and thought exactly the same. I assumed Chute makes sense, and Shoot was an error. Maybe?

Definitely looks like a chute to me!

I have sat having a break on the rocks by the lochan watching people slog up there before I head up one of the rock routes...rather them than me, it looks absolutely horrendous!

Irvine Butterfield had 'Chute'. Shoot is wrong. Sadly, this is how it is shown in the Tom Prentice book 'The Cuillin'. 

Shute. Or Choot

Mr Stainforth to reception please 🙏 

I've just looked in Stainforth's book, and I'm surprised to see he used 'Shoot'. 

Don't stones shoot down a chute?

The 1965 6 inches to the mile OS map has 'Chute':

https://maps.nls.uk/view/188133615

Well, that was how it was always spelt in all the guidebooks (Walter Poucher, Hamish Macinnes, Scottish Mountaineering Club, etc) when I climbed regularly there from the 1970s to early 90s

Well, that was how it was always spelt in all the guidebooks (Walter Poucher, Hamish Macinnes, Scottish Mountaineering Club, etc) when I climbed regularly there from the 1970s to early 90s. If it was incorrect I suppose Poucher has to be the main culprit, in terms of sheer numbers of books sold. In my book I was simply following the tradition.

In his book Rock-Climbing in Skye published 1908 Ashley Abraham calls it the Great Stone Shoot

This is interesting- 

https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2014/06/chute-or-shoot.html

It’s based on a query about garbage chutes or shoots but discusses the wider history. Seems shoot(e) is older and chute is a French alternative exported to America by French settlers. I wonder if the old French influence on Scottish culture had a part to play here?

I've always said in my head/written 'shoot', probably for similar reasons to Gordon, yet also believed 'chute' to be more correct. 

Anyway, I think there is enough established usage of both for using either in print. After all, in these days full of rifts between factions, we do not need a new argument to divide the country!

We have a Stone Shoot/Chute in Cwm Cau on Cadair Idris. I've always spelt it Shoot, as did Poucher (not renowned for his correct Welsh spelling 😁) It also appears on an old 1930s sketch I have of Craig Cau. By the way, its proper name is Ffôs Bwlch Cau.

In Gaelic something like " Gul nan Clach Ghrannda"( Gully of the ugly stones) would seem appropriate.!

Or for those of a less poetic bent " Gul na Cac" might be more appropriate. Translation unnecessary.

Thus  making "Great Stone Shite" the correct rendering .

The 1949 1:10,000 has Chute.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.0&lat=57.20805&lon=-6.2285...

Chute is a noun. Shoot is a verb. You shoot something down a chute. 

Peter

shoot can be a noun -eg "a grouse shoot"

I know, I was appealing to the pedants, no personal offense intended. 

Yes, it was terribly embarrassing when I misunderstood a poop shoot invitation. 

top marks if you can spot any rogue apostrophes in the OS 1:25k map of Skye

is it April 1st already?

Perhaps overly affected by Poucher, I've always tended to go for Shoot (both the Great one and the Sgumain one) and to me Chute looks wrong somehow. If I was wearing my editing hat (which I don't seem to have worn for a while), I'd go with Shoot unless there was a style guide decreeing otherwise.

PS - I've long ago been up and down it in late May with the upper part full of old snow - quite interesting as we didn't have axes or crampons.

It's funny but in the context of the map, 'chute' would seem totally incongruous in my opinion but I can't quite pin down why.

There is a Great Stone Shoot on page 303 of North Wales Rock shown at Craig yr Ogof. 
 

It caught my eye as it didn’t look right. 
 

Andy

Looking at the online OED (Free if you're in the right library) this is the closest " 4. The steep slope of a spoil-bank beside a quarry or mine, down which rubbish is shot; also, a steep slope for tobogganing." and that's "Chute".

And for the really keen, for "Chute" (1. is "A fall of water") "Etymology: Here there appears to be a mixture of the French chute fall (of water, descent of a canal lock, etc.), and English shoot n.1 The former appears to have been adopted in North America in sense 1, and the application gradually extended to include senses which originate with shoot n.1, and are still commonly so spelt in England."

Thanks all. Sparked more discussion than I imagined it would, but looks like we're no nearer a definitive answer. Think I'll stick with Chute.

Chute being defined as a sloping channel that brings things down to ground level would suggest chute is the correct spelling - ‘shoot’ doesn’t make sense in this context really.  
 

It seems that 'shoot' was a misspelling that stuck. But, I don't know why but I think 'chute' looks awful (perhaps because it's reminiscent of the shortened term for parachute?)

this snippet is from The Black Ridge: 'The OS map marks this 'Chute' as in slide. The first mountaineers called it 'Shoot' as in firing range. Both are apt.'

A 'chute would be a much better way off the hill

Based on the entertainment we had on Saturday I agree!

I agree. Another one which grates with me is "compleat", "compleation", "compleater" etc. As late as 1992, perhaps later,  SMC  publications used the "complete" spelling. I have never been able to find out when and why the spelling changed.

And Ron James's quirky use of "jamb" and "jambing" 

I compleatly reject that one too, it's just so twee. Guess it's intended to give a patina of age and tradition to a pastime that is, let's remember, based on fusty Imperial feat. 

Does not the "compleat" thing go back long before that? I'm pretty sure it existed before TAC began in 1991, and offhand I'd say it dates back to the Munro pioneers in the early 20th century. Will have a rummage when I get chance (probably not today). I think SMC guidebooks used "complete" in earlier times but "compleat" might have been a journal thing. It definitely has connections with this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Compleat_Angler

(Hope all's well and you're keeping busy on Dumyat and the Law etc.)

think i prefer Shoot as in firing range- surely a reference to the Great War?

Not a climber so not aware of these terms. - But I'm grumpy enough to join in your dislike.

Judging by some drying rooms I've encountered it's also based on fusty feet.

I'm sure you're right, Dave. It's just that SMC 1980 Munro Tables talks about people "completing" the Munros etc and Hamish Brown uses term "completing" the Munros in forward to  1992 edition of SMC Munro guide.

[Keeping busy on Dumyat and in Lakes and elsewhere but only one Cleuch round this year. I take it that outside chess in King's Park is over or nearing an end. A lovely idea.]

as an aside, what proportion of compleatists actually register their achievement? (hoping to get in the first 10000 in next few years

Dave Hewitt has all the facts and figures on this. I'm sure he'll see your post and reply. All the best in your endeavours.

Actually, going up it was surprisingly not too bad. You keep right into the left-hand side, which is like a furrow next to the good rock. Not too much loose, reasonably solid, in effect hundreds of feet of quite enjoyable bridging. Ditto going down: but done completely differently - down the centre in some big ziz-zags (even something of a path). The wonderful old scree run, which I first did in the mid-1970s, had been largely destroyed by the time I did my Cuillin book in 1990. Only the bottom 200 feet or so of fine scree was still OK/enjoyable. What's it like now, another 30 plus years later, I wonder?

I'm a very insecure walker. I came down it 6 years ago when I was in my mid 60s and hated every minute.

I'm now 72, and would probably have to creep, slide, crawl down it like a virtual invalid! These things are so hard to judge when one's memory of being on them was when one was young and very fit. I was unbelievably feeble when I went to the Cuillin last year, and two years earlier.

When I was doing my Cuillin book I saw things like the daunting Great Stone Shoot (sic!) as simply an interesting technical challenge. My whole attitude/approach to those things was to see how easily they could be done, in both ascent and descent. It was almost like finding a trick way of outwitting them.

It's worth recalling - sheer nostalgia now - just how great the Great Stone Shoot was in about 1974 when I first did it: a perfect, very steep scree run of the highest quality, then 1000 feet long. I remember that I came down it in just 14 minutes. The thing was so perfect it was almost like surfing: this perfect fine scree that held your feet just securely enough. It's very hard to exaggerate just how good it was.

The short answer is no one knows, as even though quite a lot of unlisted Munro rounds have been recorded elsewhere (eg online, in club journals or mentioned in correspondence with a researcher such as me), an unknown number remain hidden. I've got quite extensive stats up to 2017 - have read through the entire SMC archive and have also rummaged about all over the place generally - but even so I'm wary of trying to put a figure on it. I've heard people suggest it's 25% more than the actual list, but I feel that's too high. I tend to favour somewhere in the region of 10% more, but goodness knows really. I doubt it's under 5% more, anyway, and maybe it could be 15% more.

It's always been the case, right from the start: the 100th "official" listed Munroist came in September 1970 - the late Mike Geddes - but even by that stage I know of around 15 more definite or very likely unlisted people, and I don't imagine for a minute that I've found every example. The whole thing is quite complicated and messy - there are two numbers missing, several people are in the list twice for the same round, and numbers are massively out of sequence - if you ever hear someone announce that they're the xxxxth Munroist, basically they're not.

A couple of further points. There's evidence to suggest that women who complete the list are less likely to submit their names than are men. Again it's nigh on impossible to be sure, but for the main batch of listed Munroists the male:female split is about 82:18. For the "unlisted list" that I have (much smaller but still substantial), the split is around 75:25. Make of that what you will. There's also a theory that folk these days are becoming less likely to report a round, because it's now so two-a-penny common that the numbering thing is getting a bit silly, and/or because the influence of the SMC in overseeing such matters is less than it once was. Oh, and on that theme, the original "people list" of Munroists wasn't an SMC idea at all - it was started (and maintained up to no.100) by Eric Maxwell of the Grampian Club, who fed his research to the SMC but who primarily published it in the Grampian Club Bulletin.

Hope that helps, anyway. Good luck with your own comple(a)tion!

It's good you're still busy. I'm back to pre-Covid once-a-month-ish habits with Dumyat (eight this year thus far), but the Cleuching is still at quite a high rate - the most recent one took me to 52 for the year, so 70 again looks possible if I stay fit/healthy. The next one - tomorrow, probably - will be a curious minor landmark, as it'll bring me level with the highest known definite number of ascents, by Tom Bell of Grangemouth - do you recall him? I can well imagine there are higher totals - eg by various of the runners (Dave Duncan was forever up there when he lived at the top end of Upper Mill St, and Andrea Priestley remains a regular), but they don't seem to have kept count, unlike Tom and me.

Yes, we stopped at the start of September - not a huge amount of daylight by then and it coincided with a couple of soggy evenings. Nice idea as you say - not massively well-attended but always a few folk and a good way of keeping things going over the close season. We're now back indoors on Monday evenings for the autumn/winter - will probably restart the park stuff in May. Plus there's the whole related world of online chess (which seems to have been in the news this week). I would have replied yesterday evening but Thursday is my regular online tournament night, always a complete brain-hurting scrap but good fun. I seem to be good at coming third (eg each of the past three weeks), which isn't the worst way to be in life generally. Incidentally, Stirling chess club has three current members who are Munroists - a few seasons ago the three of us tended to inhabit the top three boards of the B team, which was quite likely a unique situation. One has done a second round plus a fair bit of Alpine stuff, eg Matterhorn and (recently, in his 70s) Weissmies. We used to have another Munroist but he moved Edinburgh and now plays his chess there.

thanks. very interesting. seems i could get in first 10000 if i got my act together (~170atm), but i fear compleaters will be going exponential before long.

I'm interested in an alternative ascent of Sgurr Alasdair through Coir a Ghrunnda. Apparently there is an 'easy' chimney on the route but I'm not a climber so I'd like to know whether they mean easy in the sense that anyone fit enough to do it can do it, or do they mean easy to a climber but not necessarily easy to a walker?

The munro baggers don't seem to use this route so that makes me think it might not be suitable but it does sound more appealing than up and down the Great Stone Chute so I'd like to have a go. I enjoy grade 1 scrambles in the Lakes and occasional grade 2's but chances are that when I get to Sgurr Alasdair I'll be with someone less keen on scrambling. I'd probably go down the chute.

For the debate here, it's got to be chute for me as the word meaning includes a sloping channel through which things may slide. The origin of chute comes from old words that describe falling whereas the old words that gave us shoot describe moving fast.

Hi, yes it's a far nicer way up the hill on the Coir' a' Ghrunnda side but I'm afraid 'easy' is relative here. The chimney pitch is a top-end grade 3 scramble. Detailed in this route card:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/r/?i=1399

In the circumstances I think your only bet is the normal way via the Chute. And even that has some exciting scrambling (grade 1 or 2 ) on the top ridge. And of course the delights of the scree in ascent as well as descent.

I'm not really up to speed with what's been happening these past four or five years, but at some stage not long before Covid there was reckoned to be a marked decline in reported completions - down from a steady mid-200s annually to low 200s or even high 100s. There's always a lag with these things - a lot of people report late, sometimes years or even decades late - so it's never right to rush to conclusions. But it doesn't seem to be in danger of increasing exponentially, whatever's happening.

I can't quite recall details, and I don't have any recent SMCJs, but I seem to recall the last set of pre-Covid numbers were back up again to the regular kind of level. There'll certainly have been a significant dip during the main couple of Covid years - both in terms of completions and people willing to report completions - and that will affect figures for a while yet; even though folk generally now go round faster than in earlier times (given that Munroing has become quite a lot easier), it still often takes five years or so.

Cheers, that looks a good round.

You're probably right but maybe it'll be worth another look after getting into some grade 3 scrambles.

or a lifetime

While we're at this, should we revert to calling Sgùrr Alasdair by its original name of Sgurr Biorach?  

surely no stranger than a door having a jamb which is still normal usage.  If a door has a jam then someone's fingers got squashed in it

There surely must be a norse name for it given the Viking era boatyard nearby

Hope you equal Tom Bell's total tomorrow, Dave. Must be around 1600 by my reckoning. I've heard of Tom Bell but never met him. Worked in BP, Grangemouth? And had another hill which he climbed many times. Perhaps Ben Lomond.

Thanks. Tom retired from Ben Cleuch in April 2007 on 1583. I'm on 1582 just now. Slightly elaborate bus pass outing from Tilli to Dunblane over the tops planned for tomorrow! Tom lived (and possibly still lives - I've lost touch) in Grangemouth, not sure if he worked there. He had 150 ascents of Stuc a' Chroin and 100 times along the Aonach Eagach, as well as all the Ochils stuff.

He mostly went up Ben Cleuch armed with a plastic shopping bag containing the day's newspaper and his sandwiches. He would do this all year round; one winter's day I got to the Ben Ever / Ben Cleuch col in quite harsh winter conditions - snow lying, fierce little squalls coming through, iffy visibility. Two men came across to me - wearing goggles and carrying axes, the works. They expressed concern about an elderly chap they'd seen higher up who they reckoned was underequipped and at risk. I asked if the chap had a shopping bag. They said yes he had, and were puzzled as to how I knew. Don't worry, I said, he'll be fine. Ten minutes later I met Tom up top, his usual self, much amused by his own encounter with the two men.

My grammar lesson are far in the past, but isn't that case a gerund rather than a noun?

Grouse can also be a verb!