UKH

Hi guys I need some help. I accidentally put my waterproof jacket in a normal wash is there any way of saving the waterproofing?? Or have I just ruined my jacket. Thanks in advance 

It should still be waterproof (if it ever was, presumably there is a waterproof membrane in your jacket), just may 'wet out' more readily and not shed water like it did.  

Wash it properly with nikwax and then have a go reproofing it. 

Fingers crossed its ok!!

I tried proofing my string vest in that Nobwax stuff and it still leaks like a sieve

😆 

Ive not tried nobwax.... isit a new product?

You'll want to give it another wash cycle with no products to completely rinse it (especially conditioner, which does the opposite of waterproof!).

Then give it a wash with a reproofer. Should be fine. 

Most likely not (ruined it), unless you ran it on a 100℃ "heavily soiled" cycle resulting in physical seam tape or membrane delamination, lol.

Really, how much temporarily "ruined" by your error it is mostly depends on your washing powder.

If it has any "lovely" fragrances and especially fabric softeners, the WP membrane might not just not transport moisture out anymore, even if it now smells like lavender, but also be a bit less waterproof, depending on the membrane type itself.

Fabric softeners negate the hydrophobic effect of gore‑tex and similar microporous membrane pores, which is – contrary to popular belief – the only thing keeping their tiny pores waterproof. Softeners do the same number on the outer's water repellency, so you might have to reapply that again if you want it to shed rain easily.

But I wouldn't worry – just wash it gently with a gentle or specialised tech wash to get all the crud that might be left there from your last wash out, perhaps reapply DWR, and it should be good.

Oh, and before washing any technical textiles, it's sometimes recommended to run the machine on an empty cleaning cycle, even if perhaps not environmentally the best (but then again, how often do you wash your technical textiles versus normal clothing). Just to get rid of any leftover regular washing powder crud and stuff still inside the machine.

But I dont suppose its affected the breathability.

And it'll be just as windproof as ever.

You will need a soap-based wash (Nikwax Tech Wash, or Grangers) to remove the detergent and softener residues.

I use liquid detergent, in a dispenser ball, for my normal clothing washes, so there is no powder residue in the water path.

This ^^. I use this but nikwax do stuff too. https://grangers.co.uk/products/wash-repel-clothing-2-in-1

Cheers buddy ill give that a go

What sort of jacket is it ? Waterproof obvs. but some have membranes etc

Also worth considering contacting the manufacturers, if it is a named brand. Several of them will wash and reproof a coat if it is one of theirs for a reasonable fee: £25-50.

When I bought my latest waterproof the lady in Outside told me I didn't need to do an empty wash first, especially if I never use fabric softener. She also told me to wash it more than I've ever washed anything.

Dri-Pak liquid soap flakes do exactly the same job as Nikwax and Grangers stuff, but at a much lower cost. I bought some earlier this week and it was £3 for 750ml at the Yorkshire Trading Company.

And the look in the High Street will be undamaged.

Phew!

The first part, quite possibly not needed. Hence I noted it as optional. Can't say without looking at the state of your washing machine, obviously, as some may be way more cruddy than others

The second part, I'd definitely agree – a lot of WPB technical gear basically depends on the material's hydrophobic properties, be it the microporous membrane's pores, or at least the outer's DWR coating. Most of which is affected by body oils, sweat, grime and any other assorted crud.

The very earliest WPB microporous membranes – like the first generations of gore-tex or event – required even more frequent washing to retain their properties, as they had zero protective layer there. But even the latest ones usually benefit from it.

Though I guess there is still a fine line between washing them way too often (potentially damaging the lamination) and not washing them enough (the grime there not helping either)...

Is it made by Rab ? (C Nesbit..)

I just looked at the ingredients of the Dri-Pak liquid soap flakes and it says it’s 15-30% soap. I expect much of the rest is water but I don’t know whether the remainder of the ingredients are a problem or not. If your waterproofs haven’t stopped working that’s a good sign though.

I’m a user of Dri-Pak pure liquid soap; can’t remember when I first started, but more than 10yrs ago now. Amongst listed uses on the container are “waterproofs, outdoor gear and “tech” clothing”. They also list personal care (handwash, shower gel, shampoo) not that I’ve used it for those purposes.

Nikwax Tech Wash is also 15-30% soap according to my container. Yes, both do have other ingredients. I still use this sometimes, but prefer Dri-Pak liquid soap.

Used on a large range of my outdooor/waterproof/windproof gear and I’ve never noticed any problems over the years. Goretex, eVent, Nikwax analogy all have been cleaned.

It'll be fine, just rewash with soap. If water isn't beading up then reproof. I have an old GTX jacket I use for work and often chuck it in with a normal wash. Still keeps the rain out but doesn't bead up or breath as well as when it was new. I've done this with waterproof trousers as well because they get muddier and it saves doing a separate wash.

I doubt many will agree and so feel free to disregard this comment, but with the exception of paramo, you can pretty much do anything to a modern jacket and it'll still perform well. 

Thanks.

I don't think this is true of membrane fabrics, only fabrics like paramo which use the DWR as part of an active system. When the coating fails the waterproof fails. With fabrics like gore, they will stay waterproof unless they are physically damaged or degraded, the coating is just there to allow them to breathe.

This is how it was explained to be my a gore rep, but admittedly it was a long time ago. Membrane fabrics work by leveraging the size differential between liquid and vapour particles, the pores are something like 20k times smaller than a water droplet and 1k times bigger than a vapour droplet. The only way you can get liquid water through the holes is to expand them or abrade/tear the fabric. The hydrophobic DWR finish on membrane jackets is for breathability, it's not to waterproof them. It is this finish which fabric conditioners and detergents either damage or masks but the fabric will still be waterproof. 

Fabric softener is itself hydrophobic, it leaves a waxy residue with some level of water repellency on things that are washed in in. It shouldn't damage the coating, or I haven't heard of this, but it leaves it's waxy residue on top of the DWR finish and reduces it's breathability. Still waterproof but not as breathable. To restore breathability one would need to strip the residue away. (There may be other stuff in there as well, surfactants and wetting agents etc. which have additional effects)

Detergents leave a residue which attracts water. They are amphiphilic, they have properties of hydrophilia and hydrophobia and the residue left over can bridge the gap, bonding to the DWR coating but also attracting water to it. This allows the outer membrane to become saturated or "wetted out", rendering it waterproof but unbreathable.

Some say that detergents can also physically degrade the polymers of the DWR coating itself, effectively removing some of it. I'm not sure how true this is or how many detergent brands it applies to. But in cases where this has happened, then in addition to washing off the residue of detergent, a new proofing would need to be applied to restore the water repellency. 

Bottom line is, unless you wash your jacket in an acid bath it will still be waterproof. The more you keep it away from detergents and conditioners, protect it from abrasion and regularly wash and reproof it, the more breathable it will be. 

That's just common marketing bullshit from your gore rep...

"20,000 times smaller than a water droplet" only refers to an average rain droplet size, like 2‑4 mm raindrops. That's totally irrelevant to its waterproofness, since by the time the raindrop hits it or wets the outer fabric, it's no longer 2‑4 mm in size, is it? And there is no such thing as "vapour droplets" (unless we are talking some exotic matter), that's normally called a gas phase

That's not really how these permeable membranes work in practice. The key is the low surface energy of the pores (and ePTFE has it pretty low) and high surface tension of the liquid, nothing else (if I may simplify it).

Decrease that pore hydrophobicity, i.e. by fouling from surfactants (laundry powders), salts or proteins (sweat), and you decrease its waterproofness and its associated "HH rating", potentially letting water pass right through, given enough pressure (i.e. kneeling in puddles, soaked backpack shoulder straps, et cetera).

And while it seems paradoxical, fouling of the membrane might result in two different things:

1) Physical pore blockage, which inhibits vapour transport, making it less breathable, while also inhibiting liquid transport (making it more waterproof). That could be from dirt, polymers in washing liquids coating the whole membrane in an impermeable layer, et cetera. Referred to as "fouling" in the industry.

2) Fouling that increases surface energy of the ePTFE pores, causing wetting of the pores. That could be from surfactants, sweat, et cetera. This inhibits vapour transport, making it less breathable, but also increases liquid transport, making the membrane less waterproof. Referred to as "wetting"in the industry.

BTW, most gore tex membranes actually also use a second, thin, non‑porous hydrophilic polyurethane membrane, but that's beyond the scope of this post. I could continue, but afraid it would just make a long wall of unreadable text

Just to reiterate how a microporous membrane (e.g. gore tex) basically works, as gore's marketing BS really muddles up the science behind it (my apologies for oversimplifying some of the science):

1) It has pores, the pores are hydrophobic.

2) That makes them less permeable to water, since water has high surface tension (~70mN/m, IIRC, unlike e.g. ethanol around twenty). But not impermeable. If all membranes were totally impermeable to liquids, life wouldn't exist.

3) Liquid and vapour permeability through a microporous membrane is a function of pore size, liquid's surface tension, pore material surface energy, pressure, temperature, plus a lot of other things way to technical for me.

4) Permeation of both liquid and gas requires a driving force – usually a temperature or pressure gradient in clothing (but also concentration, or even electrical gradients in other applications). Gases don't clump together like molecules in a liquid, so they pass through more easily, requiring less of a driving force (but still some, hence no permeable membrane would "breath" without any gradient whatsoever).

5) In normal operation, the pores are hydrophobic enough that they don't wet through unless the driving force is big enough, because of their low surface energy versus water's high surface tension. The pores stay air‑filled, even if there's a liquid on both sides. That helps moisture through. Mess with their surface energy or the liquid's surface tension enough, liquid can get through.

6) Thorough wetting of the outer fabric doesn't 100% stop the transport of moisture even as vapour, if there is still enough of a driving force (i.e. temperature differential). But it usually inhibits it enough to be really noticeable, hence the DWR treatment of the outer fabric.

7) Once the membrane pores themselves wet through (by decreasing their hydrophobicity by contaminants, or increasing the liquid pressure), no longer filled with air, they are no longer "waterproof", and the HH rating goes down.

8) Normal washing powders can contain up to 15 different types of compounds acting on both the fibres and the membrane, adjusting their surface characteristics, among other things. From surfactants (easy), fabric softeners, fragrances, optical brighteners, to anti-redeposition agents and polymers coating the fibres. Some of which can affect the properties of the membrane, either its breathability, waterproofness, or even both – in both ways.

9) It gets way more complicated once we get into solid hydrophilic "membranes" like thin polyurethane films, which are also bonded to most microporous membranes like gore tex to enhance the properties of the whole. I'd rather not get into the various molecular or capillary forces there, since that's quite beyond my ken...

10) I can certainly agree to that

That’s interesting and useful stuff, thanks. What is going on with dead Goretex waterproofs that are beyond recovery? I have an old Arcteryx one which now wets out and is no longer waterproof; no amount of washing, reproofing and tumble drying will fix it. It’s never been washed in anything nasty, I never rolled in mud whilst wearing it. 

Find out:

1. Get a big bowl
2. Place your waterproof over it with a small dip not touching the bottom
3. Add water into dip
4. Come back later
5. Carefully remove waterproof so none of the water enters the bowl
6. If there's water in the bowl crack open a beer and weep, if not do a slightly embarrassing dance around the kitchen. :-D

The structure/shape of the membrane won't last forever.