UKH

I climbed Boomer's Requiem a few years ago, and the guidebook grade was V5.  It now appears to have gone up to VII 6.  Is this a typo?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/ben_nevis-16877/boomers_requiem-49...

Well it's not  exactly Shiva Lingam is it! most defo a typo.

Yes, as it appears to have originally been given IV.  Not sure what a Shiva Lingam is though....

Ah, I think this is something to do with the new Scottish Winter West packages we've released on Rockfax Digital. That data is obviously incorrect. I'll alert the guys about that.

Thanks.  A shame though....would have been nice to think I was climbing as well as that!

Are the Boomers up in arms about grade creep or hoping for an armchair upgrade on their original tick?

I climbed this many years ago, straight shaft axes etc and it was a 5. VII 6 is just wrong.

Unfortunately the entire logbook entry for Ben Nevis is in an increasingly poor state. I had been meaning to raise the issue with both the UKC team and the current moderator.

If they aren't able/willing to put the time in to add new routes and sort out all the potential and slightly complicated changes from Mike Pescod's new guide (e.g. changes from one entry for Norwand to 3 (original, direct & superdirect)) then someone else with a detailed know of arguably the most important Winter climbing venue in the UK should be approached to take over - ideally one of the locals logging routes regularly such as Nathan Adam? Ali Rose?

Anyway it's a bit of a mess and this issue with Boomer's is only one out of about a dozen obvious issues. 

Ali is one of the two moderators.

Actually at least 4 routes in the nordwand area.

Nordwand 1959

Nordwand direct start 1989

Nordwand direct 1980

Nordwand super direct. 2015

We discussed this at length on ukc c.2015.

A few emails have been sent to Simon Richardson, so hopefully this area will correct in the new smc ben guide.

Edit 

Boomers was a (scary) V when I did it .

Tell me what the issues are. I took this over from Martin last year as it was a mess. The info in mikes guide is mikes info and I can’t just copy it over. 
 

I’ve spent quite a few hours adding routes and sorting this out so am pretty insulted to hear you say it’s “in an increasingly poor state”

Really sorry about that.

It is obvious that my criticism implying things were getting worse was wrong. My comment was based on regularly spotting additional issues over an extended period but I hadn't appreciated many of them had been rectified in the meantime. 

I'm not sure when you made specific changes, but I've now checked and almost all of the problems that I had noticed previously, both early this season and last season have been resolved. Many thanks for that. 

There still seem to be some duplicate entries but fewer than previously. I'm not sure if there's a specific issue that has been created by climbs being added on the Rockfax app.

Duplicate entries for "Frost Bite" and "Frostbite". Two entries for  "Pinnacle Buttress Direct", although they are both now on the correct buttress. Duplicates of "Right Hand Chimney" and "Right Hand Chimney, Moonlight Gully Buttress".

Also "The Curtain Rail" and "Curtain Rail". Again, one appears a duplicate entry added to the Rockfax App with a minor variation in name. 

Had another think and a quick look at the guidebooks again.

There are still loads of missing routes (I stopped counting after a dozen), although mainly in the higher grades which are rarely, if ever, climbed. Orion Face, Pinnacle Buttress of the Tower and the Upper Cascade probably have the most. However there are a few lower grade ones such as:

Robin's Scoop (far right finish to Tower Scoop)

Mirror, Mirror (icefall between Glovers and The Gutter) 

Rip Off (left of Five Finger Discount)

Perhaps more of an issue is that some common variations are not listed. It's debatable whether they should all be included but some of them are probably climbed more regularly than the many other variations that are currently listed:

Tower Scoop Left-Hand Finish 

Glovers Chimney Right-Hand Finish 

The White Line Original Start

Diana (First Pitch)

Number Three Gully Buttress - Quickstep Start

North Gully Left-Hand Finish 

Waterfall Gully (First Pitch)

The route order is now much improved. The only obvious issue seems to be Pinnacle Buttress of the Tower.

Hope you feel that's useful. 

Why don't you add them then?

I’d make the argument that most of the variations you describe can simply be logged by the route proper with a note explaining how the route was climbed. For those with private logbooks, it could be added as feedback so it’s visible to the public. 

I don’t think there’s a need for so many variants to be described, either in a guidebook or on UKC. It makes the job harder for moderators and authors and no doubt in my mind that it’s the reason we now have monstrously big guidebooks you can no longer justifiably carry to the crag. 

I would agree with your point here Nathan. Things like Diana (first pitch) can be dealt with by a comment in the users logbook and don't need a separate entry. It's not bouldering after all!!!

As the original moderator for Ben Nevis, I took a similar stance to you and Nathan in how I listed the routes. The motivation was about providing a means for folk to log ascents and have an electronic record, rather than being an online substitute guidebook. (All this long before Rockfax Digital was a glint in Alan's eye, I suspect.) More than 99% of the time, people will be able to find and record in their logbook whatever route they climbed on Ben Nevis, should they so wish.

There are loads of modern and classic lines on Ben Nevis that have no ascents recorded on the UKC logbook entry (>10% of the 550 logbook routes have no ascents). I could have added more from the various definitive guidebooks but couldn't see the point of add relatively obscure routes that don't get climbed, regardless of grade. All the macro-structure of the mountain and the main routes are already present and listed, how anyone that doesn't know the mountain well. If people go and climb something esoteric without an entry in the UKC then the facility exists so they can add an entry themselves.

Similarly I tended to avoid listing anything other than obvious distinct variations to a well-known route, because I think it's just part of route-finding the best line when using an ephemeral and fickle medium.

The reason I specifically suggested that route is that the start is often in decent nick when the rest of the line isn't and when people check on the Winter conditions page it would make things much, simpler and clearer for anyone thinking about what to climb.

In fact I'd argue that it's more important with Winter lines to include variations compared to other disciplines when climbing conditions don't really vary day to day.

I could, but the rest of the comments here seem to suggest that adding another 20+ routes that are never climbed is actually counter productive.

Also, adding lots of routes still creates work for a moderator.

The question then is should be people be logging an easier first pitch as having "done the route" 

Ok.

He would only have to confirm the routes were correct and put them in the right place, less work than adding routes.

Hi Mark.  

Thanks for the apology.  If you want to see those routes you listed in the logbook section for Ben Nevis please enter them and I'll verify and put them in the correct place.  Personally I don't think having specific pitches or variations of routes is the way to go as it makes for messy logbooks and is easy to record as a note in a logbook.  I've added routes I've climbed and often others that are nearby (especially where they don't appear in guidebooks) to help others who want to get off the beaten track but with the volume of routes on Ben Nevis (especially ones that don't get climbed) its not really worth adding everyone all at once.  I also try and have a look at various crags I moderate if I've a bit of free time and add and tweak things but I don't have the time or inclination to go through every crag with a fine toothcomb especially when a new guidebook is about to come out for Ben Nevis.

In reference to the first pitches of Diana and similar routes I personally feel that people using the UKC conditions pages to do anything other than get a very rough feel for condition on a specific mountain are kidding themselves.  Following others logs of routes has some pretty major issues  

- they may not have climbed it on that day and just be updating their logbook (putting in the wrong date or one thats convenient).  (Emerald gully on Beinn Dearg was logged in Sept last year!)

- They may have  a very different idea of acceptable conditions or have a lot more grades in hand than you.  

- by specifically choosing routes that were done the day(s) before you are putting yourself at more risk as others will invariably do the same.  The honeypotting on routes due to the UKC winterconditions is scary to watch.

Yes the caravan of people going up Agags this season like sheep was baffling, there are other routes on the wall.