UKH

looking forward to the upcoming season what is the best way for a skinny runt such as myself for staying warm enough on IV4's at altitude in february. I've found scotland to be too cold where-as norway is toasty even at lower air temps. give me guidance please.

In reply to mutt:

If weather allows take your wet sweaty base layer off when you get to the crag and put a dry one one.

Invest in a really warm duvet jacket for belaying.

Eat loads.

Spare dry gloves for leading, massive overmits for belaying.

Get a helmet without vents or tape them up.

Wear a hat under your helmet.

Sounds obvious but zip all your jackets right to the top to try and seal around your neck/face.

If needs be choose routes that aren't likely to involve a lengthy belay (mixed is slow, ice is quick).

In reply to mutt:

The reason is moisture... it's seems to be rather damp in Scotland and temps howering around freezing point.

So to keep warm, make sure what ever you have on, is good at moisture management (and warm even if damp). Some eons ago, when I visited Scotland courtecy of BMC Winter Meet, for me what seemed to keep a skinny lass like my reasonably warm, was a sports wool-synthetic mix underwear (long sleeve and long johns), then a bit of insulation (200 or 260 g/m2 wool IIRC), hardshell troos and softshell jacket (quite water resistant). And then a big as synthetic belay jacket (DAS Parka IIRC).

I also recall I stripped some of the layers off for the hike in...

Still got screamin' barfies though, on me hands.... but that's a different thing.

So to recap, you might actually need more insulation than in dry but colder climates... and you need to make sure, what ever you wear is good for moisture management. Ideally you would have something as your first layer that keeps your skin dry... and then the next insulating layer would need to be something that will keep you warm enough, even if wet... and lastly the outer layer should try to keep the outside elements like, moisture and wind outside...

Plus the insulating layer, you put on after your you've climbed the pitch. 

In reply to mutt: start with a Brynje super thermo vest as your first base layer with a synthetic base layer on top of it. (I find that the short sleeved vest is enough as my arms dont get sweaty) That way your torso will stay much drier and therefore warmer than just having a synthetic base layer.

https://www.brynje-shop.com/en/sportswear~c12/brynje-super-thermo-t-shirt-w...

In reply to mutt:

Managing sweat while leading makes a huge difference to keeping warm while belaying

Wear less while climbing so that you are not a sweaty mess on arrival at the stance then put on a proper burly belay jacket.

Opening the neck of your outer layer while climbing or climbing with out a hat can help reduce sweatiness although it's often not possible.

Also, think about clothing that minimises sweat build up while leading. For example, softshells can make a lot of sense if they're your outer layer but they make much less sense if you're going to put a hardshell over them as they are less breathable than unshelled garments. With a hardshell, I use the loosest weave, most open insulating layers I can find so that moisture passes freely through them to the hardshell.

In reply to mutt:

Have a look on Andy Kirkpatrick's website. Loads of brilliant advice on there

In reply to mutt:

Buffalo. 

In reply to mutt:

I wrote an article about my choice here: https://www.straightupadventures.co.uk/winter-clothing 

The TL;DR is go light for the walk in, change your base layer before you start climbing and wear a waffle fleece so you've got minimum wet fabric touching your skin.

People recommend the Fitzroy as a belay jacket but it's not warm enough. Get something with 200gsm of Primaloft or equivalent in the body. 

I've got some Brynje base layers for review on test at the moment which do a similar thing to a waffle fleece, but it's not been cold enough recently to properly try them out. 

In reply to mutt:

Another vote for the brynje base layers. Made a massive difference for me. No more sweaty back on the walk in and felt comfortable all day. Don't forget to eat and drink as well and be bothered to change your layers and gloves sooner that you think.

In reply to mutt:

On the walk in you might also want to consider the speed you and your partner walk in at but in particular do you have to ‘chase’ to keep up with them? (resulting in sweating more!) 

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Great if you don't sweat much, rubbish if you do. Buffalo style jackets are too warm for me if I'm working hard which meant I always arrived at the stance soaking with sweat and then no belay jacket in the world was going to keep me warm because I was wet.

In reply to mutt:

Buy yourself a Brynje base layer. It’s pure mesh. You will look like you’re ready for a Berlin sex party but it’s the best thing since sliced bread. I tend to wear Brynje, a fleece and a shell whilst leading and then a very heavy belay jacket whilst static and whack my mitts on. 

In reply to mutt:

A spare, dry thermal baselayer (Montane Dart Thermo thingy for me) can really make the difference (even when the wind picks up at the slightest hint of bare skin to whack you with some spindrift!). The hassle of swapping it is far outweighed by the comfort is brings once it's on.

I'm somewhat weird in that I'll often even take a spare pair of socks with me so I can have dry ones on for starting to climb with. I always adjust my laces to be tighter before climbing so often it's only an extra 30 seconds to change them but it's not so great when properly blowing. Generally, the walk in pair will be thinner and more breathable so help moisture escape and keep the heat levels down but the climbing pair are a little burlier but not overly so. I've always found thick socks = cold feet + blisters. 

Wear less to climb in and keep the moisture at bay. I'd always prefer to start off a pitch a little colder knowing I'll hit optimum temps after a few meters. Generally my layers are thermal baselayer, thin Polartec power grid fleece with underhelmet hood to keep the draft off my neck (can add balaclava over this too) and a waterproof jacket over the top (softshell if it's sunny). I wear softshell trousers as I find they stick to snow for knee only moves and dry out quickly, thin long johns on underneath. M.E. Citadel with beefy belay mittens on my harness in a dry bag and it goes on as soon as I'm clipped to the belay, sometimes even before if I'm on a big ledge. It's easier to keep heat than it is to produce it when clipped to a belay. A pair of gloves per pitch for mixed climbing but less for ice, try not to climb in wet gloves,  it's a recipe for pain in my experience. Maybe worth considering some insulated shorts or trousers? 

Squats and high knees are my preferred method of gaining some heat after a while stationary, but you need to do about 80-100 of each before you feel it working and isn't always possible on hanging or semi hanging stances. Big breakfast and high calorie foods that are palatable and easy access, flask of hot Vimto or Ribena in the seconds bag can be a real treat when things are feeling cold and shite. Careful on the caffeine intake the day before and the morning of, lots of friends who drink coffee struggle with hot aches and poor circulation. 

Get the systems dialled well in advance of needing to use them in anger and be ready to tweak things to suit the specific conditions on any given day.

In reply to mutt:

If I get cold hands, I find that cupping my bollocks can help. If I get really cold, I sometimes cup my partner's bollocks.

That's my Pro Tip, anyway.

In reply to Nathan Adam:

That's interesting what you say about coffee. Personally I often take a 500 ml flask of hot proper coffee in winter, as it warms, hydrates, and gives you a bit of a caffeine kick. I don't get hotaches regularly, in fact I'm sure I get them now less in middle age than when I was younger. But totally understand the caffeine thing affects different folk differently. 

In reply to mutt:

I wrote this a decade ago https://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2014/10/a-beginner-guide-to-clothing... and looking back on it now it still makes sense. Take note of the "dry and still" bit to understand why you're cold in Scotland but not in Norway. 

The only bits I'd change now is I've gone off pure merino because it wears out so fast so isn't very cost effective, and it seems everyone has given up on eVent, although how much that has to do with Goretex being better or Gore just having a marketing machine 100 times bigger, I couldn't possibly speculate.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

What do.you do if you get a cold nose?

In reply to Jack:

Aye - can be tricky ... but just use your imagination.

In reply to mutt:

One easy solution is to maximise your thermal mass by avoiding peeing for the entire day.

In reply to Myr:

Not sure if meant seriously or joking, but this would work counterproductively as your body will start to put energy in heating said pee to 37 degrees. The same would go for a full colon. 

I think most things have already been said. Staying warm in wet and cold conditions is seriously more challenging than staying warm in cold, freezing temperatures so picking materials and drills that allow you to stay as dry as possible are paramount. 

Have a look at insulating layers designed for special forces, such as Polartec Alpha, and merino wool blends. These are all designed to insulate even when damp, as those guys tend do get involved in activities making them sit still for long and get their heart rates up to ridiculous levels. Your big down jacket is the exact opposite. It's perfect in extreme cold but damp is its antichrist. 

In reply to mutt:

Often overlooked but a game changer for me was staying hydrated. When I first started winter climbing I reluctantly took the minimal amount of water to save weight in the bag. This usually resulted in incredible hot aches, cramp and feeling cold. I learnt to stay hydrated and even started to take a warm flask of juice for return to the bag tea victory treats. Most of my winter was on mixed routes with long cold belays and above all tech clothing (neck buff aside as they are just ace) the fluids helped the most. 

Enjoy   

In reply to VictorM:

But it'd already be at 37 degrees, and wouldn't the body effectively insulate it?

(at the risk of sending things off on a tangent...)

In reply to TobyA:

I stopped drinking coffee on winter days out a few years ago as I noticed the problem with cold hands and feet.  Hot ribena style drinks alleviate this a lot.

In reply to mux:

Half a litre of the warm beverage of your choice when you get back to your rucksack is one of the great small pleasures. Not so important in the Northern Corries but a real morale boost if you've got a long trek out.

In reply to DaveHK:

Interesting, did you wear anything else? Buffalo only really works if it's the only thing you've got on. It wicks pretty well and if you're really hot opening the vents dumps all the hot air quickly 

Plus the OP was specifically asking to stay warm, so I assumed they're running cold.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

I tried them with and without anything underneath and after a few years I realised it just didn't work for me for any high energy activity. It wasn't disastrous but when I switched to wearing grid fleeces under a hardshell I was instantly more comfortable.

Plus, as technical fabrics improved the additional weight and bulk of P&P became more of an issue.

In reply to mutt:

Go with a partner who walks slowly and climbs fast.

In reply to Rampart:

This is going off of the assumption that your bodily fluids and especially the waste is at a continuous 37 degrees - it's not. 

The same goes for spending the night camping in freezing temps. One of the easy ways to cool down is not going to pee because you don't  want to leave the relative comfort of your sleeping bag. Not going to the bathroom is a waste of precious energy - I've been guilty of this obviously..

In reply to Andy Hardy:

I once tried that traversing the Aonach Eagach in winter. I think if I had been wearing three of them with nothing else on I might have just about been warm enough!

In reply to Rampart:

I'm not convinced that it would make any difference either way (pee or not pee).

I suspect the most efficient thing to do would be to pee in a bottle and put it inside your clothing or use it as a hand warmer. Or maybe just pee on your wet gloves, warm and wet being better than cold and wet.

In reply to mutt:

Reading this thread there are obviously lots of good suggestions that have worked well for different people. But that is the key thing; everyone is different and you just have to try different things until you find what works best for you. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

Did you have the legwear too? I had a pair of Mardale P+P salopettes and a buffalo prototype top, which I found to be too hot for walking in without opening all the vents. With the hatches battened down I was toasty on the belays. (Full disclosure: I'm proper nesh) I never had the belay jacket so can't comment on how effective 2 layers of P+P would have been, but I would think it would be bombproof. 

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Like I said, everyone is different. Just two layers of buffalo while not moving in cold conditions would have been totally inadequate for me.

In reply to mutt:

Keep moving as much as you can. Don't get bogged down on routes.

In reply to VictorM:

But that's mostly the internal debate of whether to unzip sleeping bag, possibly put on socks/boots, ununzip tent, wander as few steps out into the dark as seems decent, pee, then do it all again in reverse, against just staying warm in the sleeping bag and trying to ignore the urgent pressure from the bladder and not really being able to sleep anyway...

In reply to Rampart. why haven't you ever used a pee bottle? Solves all those tent pee problems 

In reply to Andy Hardy:

I've found wearing Brynje string vest under a Buffalo helps make opening the vents wide a little less 'naked' feeling in winter, especially when there's a breeze. It's the only thing I've found that works along with Buffalo without compromising it. I've never been cold in my Buffalo in Scottish Winter, but 'comfortable and wet' can be a bit of a mind game that takes some getting used to. I did try Buffalo Salopettes once but couldn't cope with that level of heat and went back to uninsulated trousers.

In reply to mutt:

If you’re skinny and reasonably fit, you probably won’t need to change your base layer after the walk. Not really practical to do that a lot of the time in winter anyway. Climbing shouldn’t generally be an issue either. However belaying will be unless the weather is nice and/or you’re only belaying for a short while. A good synthetic belay jacket like the Citadel will be key.

For legs, a decent base layer plus winter climbing trousers and a decent waterproof layer on top should be sufficient most of the time. However for long belays and/or nasty weather you can get insulated shorts which you can put on top (Decathlon sell them, probably in the skiwear section). They are meant to be a mid layer but probably too warm to climb in and not practical to put on / take off unless you don’t need to be clipped in (they do have side zips so can go over boots and crampons. I’ve not used them myself outdoors but heard good feedback.

In reply to Andy Moles:

I can do the walks slowly bit.

In reply to mutt: play around with base layers . I found a very thin silky and very close  fitting one with no collar first followed by a thicker one with a High zipped collar . Also 2 neck gaiters in a similar vein , first one close fitting buff style , secondly one big fleecy thing that can be taken on and off . Turtle fur ( brand ) neck gaiters are excellent and available from eBay .

In reply to Fellover:

It's a good start.

In reply to Basemetal:

I found Brynge vest didn't add warmth to Buffalo (perhaps pile fibres just stick through the holes, and I assume the vest is not much use when uncovered).

I have worn Buffalo HA salopettes in walking in hot sunny weather.....they were fine flapping about undone to the top but might be open to charges of indecency.

Just shows how we all differ I suppose.

In reply to oldie:

You're right I think, the Brynje didn't seem to make the Buffalo any warmer,  but it did leave you some cover when you had the side vents wide open on the walk-in .

In reply to mutt:

I take a pair of dry suit neoprene cuffs (without the rest of the drysuit!) that I put on over my base layer sleeve end and into my gloves. (The neoprene doesn't soak up moisture like a fabric version would.) This has been a game changer for me keeping warm hands. 

In reply to Misha:

Yeah, extra insulation on the feet is a good call... albeit also simply having more in your feet might be an option (so an baselayer, insulating layer, like powershell tights or simila wool stuff, and troos, prolly hardshell to keep the elements out).

But a better call for extra insulation would actually be an insulated skirts (or kilt)... some models are simple wrap-around design with a hook - molle thing to keep it up. If sized properly, it'll keep you warm and also still allow good access to your harness & belay loop (so possibly to use even when in a hanging belay). Those with a DIY oriented mindset, might actually rig something with a little work from an old sleeping bag (I was planning on doing that, but then life got in the way and haven't done much winter climbing lately ).

In reply to leon 1:

Tent partners have in the past objected, bafflingly, to close-quarters pissing.
Also, having an extra bottle is a bit of a luxury when pushed for bag space.

In reply to Rampart:

Better partner needed.

Bigger bag needed.

A pee bottle is life changing. Swaps a grim trip outside for relief and a hot water bottle.

In reply to Rampart: As Robert suggests If your partners are really that fussy then maybe time for a change. (They shouldn't even be aware of you peeing as you neither need to get out of your sleeping bag nor sit up. )

Re limited bag space ... theres no excuse with Nalgene wide mouth collapsible bottles

https://ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/cantene-wide-mouth-soft-water-bottles/

Try it its a game changer 

In reply to leon 1:

Would it be fair to guess your gender comes pre-equiped with the necessary attachment?

In reply to nufkin: Indeed it does,  however Ive shared enough tents over the years to know that a Shewee allows the use of a pee bottle whilst remaining in the sleeping bag although kneeling seems to be the favoured way to use it  

In reply to nufkin:

That’s asking for an accident. I’ve always kneeled.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Hah! When alone I'm as happy as the next man to use a bottle/mug/cooking pot, but it seems contrary to team spirit to do so when the other tent occupant is less well configured...