UKH

Looking through the lakes winter climbing guidebook last night, and noticed that many of the classic ridges in the Napes such as Arrow Head ridge, Needle ridge aren't in the guidebook.

Im assuming people have done them in winter, anyone know what grades they get ? and why they were left out of the guidebook when so many other classic rock climbs all over the lakes have had a winter ascent ?

Cheers

The Napes is SW facing out to the sea, it'll basically never come into condition the way winters are at the moment. perhaps back when winters were good they may have been climbed. But even then the focus would have been on better aspects. 

I remember climbing Needle Ridge on New Years Day circa 1985 with a monumental hangover. There was a gale and it was hailing. Crampons and axe not required, but it was a character-building experience As Paul said it faces the sea, so is unlikely ever to come into proper winter conditions until the next ice age.

There are some pictures of wintery conditions around that area in one of Full Moon Addict's contributions to my thread last week https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/winter_climbing/lake_district_rocky_ridge...

I suspect it has been climbed plenty of times under snow cover but people just have felt its not a normal "winter route" so haven't felt confident enough to claim it in anyway. The Lake District winter guide books have never been as down on mixed and snowed up rock as the first (?) Welsh Winter guidebook (late 80s?), but then we're in this position of people newer to winter climbing wading around in powder over scree, and possibly rare alpine fora, in the Lakes and Wales thinking they are "gully climbing", because there's the impression that that is what winter climbing (at least as lower grades) is all about. But then you get the big crampon-scratches debate when people climb ridges in snowy conditions...

Possibly because they might end up getting destroyed as routes, like the trashed Bowfell Buttress?

DC

What does "trashed" actually mean Dave?

Fairly obvious I would have thought - It means the way BB is now, it means what happens to rough natural weathered rock when you attack it with aid, ice tools, crampons, whatever.

DC

I haven't done BB, but I know that rock climbers polish popular routes to a very unnatural degree - sometimes making footholds harder to use securely as a result. And I totally agree that crampons leave scratches but I think that might be an aesthetic issue, but I don't think it often makes climbs harder like polish or worn gear placements does.

Aren't these ridges included in the areas of Wasdale that people have agreed to not winter climb?

In the Lakes White Guide it includes The Napes area and that there should be no winter climbing on "Tophet Wall & all major buttresses except gullies".

I wasn't going to bite but I'm bored. I did Bowfell Buttress as a winter route last year for the third time and as a Summer route for a sixth(?) time. A great mountain route in either genre and not spoilt in any way in my eyes. The friend I did the Summer ascent with, who is mainly a runner not a climber, certainly didn't get to the top and complain that his experience, or the route, was spoilt by scratches, and given he came to the experience with no preconceived ideas I place a lot of value in his view, or lack of one.

A bit like pouring petrol down Great End crag and torching it or stripping all the natural vegetation off pretty much any of the Lakes crags (bilberry buttress isn't a made up up name) in the quest for (rock) climbs...We as climbers seem to care about these nuances...but the development of rock climbing crags is significantly more impactful and obvious to non climbers than scratched rock is to non winter climbers
...just saying.

If you'd climbed Bowfell Buttress, you'd see that Dave Cumberland has a point. It's a classic route, first done in summer, but it's become a semi-popular winter route for some reason. The crampon scratches are everywhere; someone also banged in a peg or two; and there's a lot of stuck gear to boot (though... who's to blame, I'm not sure). It is a bit sad to see, to be honest. Like a great tree that's had graffiti carved into the bark or like looking out from Shepherd's Crag across Derwent Water, with its wetlands and Catbells ridge, and seeing the great tarmac scabs of car parks and a new spa going up.

I'm not condemning people for doing the route in winter; just saying that I can't help but note the damage and feel it is a shame.

A good point. I read the White Guide a few years ago but somehow had forgot this. Looking over it, you're completely correct.

You do see the problem (problems) with this logic, right?

A friend with no experience of climbing and no idea about the ethics and tradition of climbing doesn't moan at you for taking him out for a good day on a crampon-scored climb, and you take this to be the final justification of your right to climbthe route however you see fit, whatever anyone else's view ('or lack of one')?

Is this particular train of thought you had operated by Northern Rail, by any chance? Because it doesn't seem to be going anywhere particularly fast...

Not my final justification but an interesting observation - somebody who is an outdoor enthusiast and is unencumbered by any preconceptions of if scratches are worse than polish or vise versa didn't have a problem with the condition of BB.  

In response to some of your other points:

'No experience of climbing.' What I said was 'mainly a runner not a climber', (meaning mainly not a climber.)  He does presently climb a little, has previously climbed a fair bit, but runs a lot more now - not that his activity history has any impact on his aesthetic appreciation of the outdoors, or routes he climbs,

At present climbing certain climbs as both winter mixed routes and summer rock routes is ethically accepted in the Lakes - see Lakes White Guide which I think I am correct in saying is endorsed by the BMC and FRCC among others.  So, even if he had no idea about 'ethics', which isn't the case, he was not witnessing anything unethical.

Both winter and Summer ascents have formed part of the rich Lakeland tradition of Summer and Winter climbing for well over a century. So even if he had no idea about 'tradition', which isn't the case, he was not witnessing anything untraditional. 

Good stab at a train pun, but I'm making an observation in relation to somebody whose opinion I respect, (not to say I don't respect yours, I just don't agree with it,) not trying to go anywhere quickly.

It is a little late but I am glad to see the winter migrant has finally arrived this year and is happily ranting away in its nest. 

The first abseil rant of the spring will be along soon. 

If you read back through old FRCC and CC Journals and also check with other sources in various archives, it is pretty obvious that nearly all the easier climbs round Wasdale were probably done under far more wintery conditions than many modern climbers consider necessary to claim a winter ascent these days. This is because a) winters from 1885 - 1914 were generally a lot colder and longer lasting than today's winters, and b) Because these early climbers had a week off over Christmas/New Year and a week off over Easter and were determined to go out whatever the conditions. And Easter was very often full blown winter.

They weren't generally recorded as "winter" ascents because these folk mostly thought of the Lakes as a training ground for the Alps (so snow and ice just added to the fun), and were climbing in nailed boots and with one axe in nearly all conditions. Considering their primitive equipment, much of what they achieved was incredibly impressive.

The Napes is not and will not be included in a winter guide because it has been agreed that what would basically just amount to drytooling ascents of classic rock routes is not a good thing.

Cheers for the responses !

I wasn't in any way intending or advocating of doing these ridges, I was just curious why they didn't appear in any guidebooks as im fairly new to the lake district.

Al