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NEWS: Call for Snowdon to be known only by Welsh name Yr Wyddfa

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 UKC/UKH News 29 Apr 2021

Snowdonia National Park Authorities are considering a proposal to make the Welsh name for Snowdon, Yr Wyddfa, the one official name for the mountain. We asked a Welsh hill names expert and a local mountain photographer for their views on the idea, and received some thought provoking responses both for and against.

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In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Although I am English I am entirely in favour of supporting the Welsh language.  However this proposal is ridiculous.  Like it or not, these places also have English names which have been well-established for centuries. Removing these would alienate and confuse the majority of visitors, not only from England and the rest of the UK but from overseas, and if anything would make them less sympathetic towards Welsh.

How would this comply with the Welsh Language Act 1993? This requires public sector organisations who provided a service to the public to do so in both Welsh and English.  This was of course intended to protect Welsh, but sauce for the gwydd is sauce for the ceiliagwydd.

 ChrisJD 29 Apr 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

'Where you off to this weekend?'

'YrWyddfaia'

 profitofdoom 29 Apr 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Wonderful! It must be applied worldwide ASAP

Next month I'm off to Munchen, Nippon, and Hankook*

*Munich, Japan, and South Korea

 Ian Parsons 29 Apr 2021
In reply to profitofdoom:

München.

In reply to Howard J:

> Although I am English I am entirely in favour of supporting the Welsh language... ...

So am I, but I like the idea. Why not? They can always write "Snowdon" in small letters underneath on signs, in case it infringed any laws. It has been on maps and signs as Yr Wyddfa for years, so it's not like the name is a recent invention or something, it's in Wales and that's it's name...

 Monkeydoo 29 Apr 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Was this article from April the 1st ?

 jimtitt 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Ian Parsons:

> München.

Err it's Minga in Bavarian (Bairisch).

In reply to profitofdoom:

> Next month I'm off to Munchen, Nippon, and Hankook*

Sounds tyreing...

 Marek 29 Apr 2021
In reply to CantClimbTom:

> ... Yr Wyddfa for years, so it's not like the name is a recent invention or something...

Actually, at least in written records, 'Snowdon' (or variations of) predates Yr Wyddfa (or variations of). As for what the locals called it pre-1000 AD, who knows. Quite likely to have be Welsh for "up there". Still, at least we can anticipate the first sighting of "Mount Wyddfa" in some national newspaper.

 wercat 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Howard J:

it is very stupid.  If Snowdon had been a Victorian affectation by the middle classes then I'd agree entirely with taking up an old name.  However, the name Snowdon seems to be at least as old as the Domesday Book so changing it seems stupid and dishonest.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Yr Wyddfa is one of its names, Snowdon is another and probably better known to most visitors.  I'm sorry to say most won't have a clue how to pronounce it.  This proposal wouldn't affect signage, which as you say is bilingual and would remain so, this about how its used for official purposes by the National Park Authority, including how it refers to itself.

Putting the English name in small letters wouldn't work, as both languages must be given equal status.

I'm more than happy for Welsh names to be given more prominence so that they become more familiar to visitors, but this is just political posturing of the worst kind. It's discriminatory, bordering on racist, and also excludes the majority of Welsh people who don't speak the language.

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I think park admin time and staff hours might be better spent dealing with parking, litter, local transport etc.. than worrying about the name. 

 Myfyr Tomos 29 Apr 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

You may find that this has resulted from the big upsurge in the Anglicisation of Welsh place names in recent years. Whilst it may not be historically correct, what better way of bringing this to the public's attention than to start with something iconic? Houses, farms, lakes, even villages are losing their local names as more and more properties are bought up by incomers with no sense of local history or tradition. The pandemic has hastened this process dramatically. Within a few miles of my home, Fron Oleu has become "Old Mill Farmhouse", Beudy Gelli has become "The Byre" and a few years ago, Gloywlyn in the Rhinogydd was being called "Glove Lake" - due to its shape. Thankfully, that died a death! It's worked for Uluru and Denali, so why not Yr Wyddfa? 😊

 AlanLittle 29 Apr 2021
In reply to jimtitt:

Boarisch isn’t really spoken in the city though

 Marek 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Myfyr Tomos:

I absolutely sympathise with your point, but do you think that what the Snowdonia National Park Authority put on their letterheads/webpage would really have made a difference?

I must plead guilty though - I live in England, but I've 'Polishised' The name of my house. No one seems to have cared (or possibly even noticed) in 30 years.

Post edited at 16:56
 jimtitt 29 Apr 2021
In reply to AlanLittle:

Full of yuppies and Prussians!

In reply to jimtitt:

> Err it's Minga...

Harsh. I quite like the place.

 Nic 29 Apr 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Aren't most Welsh names on OS maps derived from the efforts of Victorian surveyors who went round asking the locals what the features were called, so mostly translate as "big hill behind my house", "no idea", "I wish this fellow would b*gger off and stop bothering me, I've got sheep to round up" etc?

In reply to Nic:

> Aren't most Welsh names on OS maps derived from the efforts of Victorian surveyors who went round asking the locals what the features were called, so mostly translate as "big hill behind my house", "no idea", "I wish this fellow would b*gger off and stop bothering me, I've got sheep to round up" etc?

Terry Pratchett would be proud of that one!

In reply to Myfyr Tomos:

That's a very different problem though, and whilst I find it utterly deplorable I'm not sure how that can be stopped, short of having laws in place.  However far from drawing attention to this issue, all the focus arising from this proposal has been on Snowdon/Yr Wyddfa and the renaming issue you mention has been largely ignored. I very much doubt the incomers will be influenced by what the park authority does in its literature.

The English names for Uluru and Denali were relatively recent impositions, whereas "Snowdon" and "Snowdonia" have been in use for centuries.  It is very common for languages (Welsh among them) to have their own names for places elsewhere which are used alongside the native versions.  Use the English names when using the English language, and Welsh names when using Cymraeg.

 AukWalk 29 Apr 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Seems to reflect a lot of the unhealthy attitude some Welsh politicians seem to have to England that the person proposing this idea was shocked it wasn't simply agreed on and implemented immediately.

Personally I guess I don't really have much skin in the game but think it would be silly to do away with 'snowdon' when it is so historic in its own right, and so well known. Don't see anything wrong with putting 'Snowdon / Yr Wyddfa' on the signs and maps, they're both historic names, both have meaning to different groups of people, are prononunceable by different groups of people, and the authority won't end up spending millions tearing down all their old signs and posters and paying a marketing consultancy to redesign them so everyone wins.

Officially renaming it would just be a petty partisan act. 

Post edited at 17:58
 Doug 29 Apr 2021

So Cervin or Matterhorn ? Mont Blanc or Monte Bianco?

Why must the name be the same in every language ?

In reply to Howard J:

> Yr Wyddfa is one of its names, Snowdon is another and probably better known to most visitors.  I'm sorry to say most won't have a clue how to pronounce it.  This proposal wouldn't affect signage, which as you say is bilingual and would remain so, this about how its used for official purposes by the National Park Authority, including how it refers to itself.

So absolutely nothing to object to them?

> Putting the English name in small letters wouldn't work, as both languages must be given equal status.

Why must they?

> I'm more than happy for Welsh names to be given more prominence so that they become more familiar to visitors, but this is just political posturing of the worst kind. It's discriminatory, bordering on racist, and also excludes the majority of Welsh people who don't speak the language.

‘Racist’? 

In reply to Doug:

> So Cervin or Matterhorn ? Mont Blanc or Monte Bianco?

This argument has no logical credence when the  border of England and Wales is 60 miles away

> Why must the name be the same in every language ?

It doesn’t have to be, the English name is Snowdon, the Welsh name is Yr Wyddfa, not unreasonably the Welsh are planning to use the Welsh name from now on. 

In reply to AukWalk:

> Seems to reflect a lot of the unhealthy attitude some Welsh politicians seem to have to England that the person proposing this idea was shocked it wasn't simply agreed on and implemented immediately.

Here you are, someone who doesn’t have any connection with the country, telling the indigenous population what they should call their own places and it’s the Welsh with the attitude?

In reply to Nic:

> Aren't most Welsh names on OS maps derived from the efforts of Victorian surveyors who went round asking the locals what the features were called, so mostly translate as "big hill behind my house", "no idea", "I wish this fellow would b*gger off and stop bothering me, I've got sheep to round up" etc?

Cer I Gachu does have a ring to it. 

 C Witter 29 Apr 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Yr Wyddfa sounds wonderful and it's not hard to pronounce (Er With-fa). Why not?

Personally, I think it's a fantastically inventive solution to the problem of parking at Pen-y-Pass...

Post edited at 19:04
 Michael Gordon 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Tyler:

It would be sensible for them to at the very least put 'Snowdon' in brackets afterwards, or there are going to be a lot of confused visitors! If they do that, I can't see a big problem with it.

 Ciro 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Howard J:

> Yr Wyddfa is one of its names, Snowdon is another and probably better known to most visitors.  I'm sorry to say most won't have a clue how to pronounce it. 

What better way to encourage people to learn a little bit about welsh spelling and pronunciation, than to drop the english names for major welsh tourist attractions and have visitors grapple with the welsh?

In reply to Michael Gordon:

> It would be sensible for them to at the very least put 'Snowdon' in brackets afterwards, or there are going to be a lot of confused visitors! If they do that, I can't see a big problem with it.

Personally I’d let ‘them’ decide what’s sensible but sure, all the English people commenting on this thread should definitely write to ‘the Welsh’ and make sure they understand what’s best for them.  

 Forest Dump 29 Apr 2021
 Forest Dump 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Tyler:

The Welsh? We're a diverse lot ya know..

In reply to Tyler:

>> Putting the English name in small letters wouldn't work, as both languages must be given equal status.

>Why must they?

I believe that's the law in Wales, for public bodies anyway.  It's intended to ensure that Welsh is given equal status to English, but logic suggests the reverse should also apply.

 wercat 29 Apr 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

surely only Welsh names should be used throughout Yr Hen Ogledd and english dismissed into the bin of history.

Mind you Helvellyn could be a bit latin (Helvetia)

I await a YWNPA dictat

Oh lucky Park Authority to have surplus money for such necessary signage adjustment

Post edited at 20:19
 Doug 29 Apr 2021
In reply to wercat:

surely PCE  (Parc Cenedlaethol Eryri)

 Michael Gordon 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Tyler:

'Them' being the National Park Authorites, Roads Department etc. I don't think signage is left to individual citizens.

 Frank R. 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Nic:

> Aren't most Welsh names on OS maps derived from the efforts of Victorian surveyors who went round asking the locals what the features were called, so mostly translate as "big hill behind my house", "no idea", "I wish this fellow would b*gger off and stop bothering me, I've got sheep to round up" etc?

Having tried to learn at least few words in a local language when travelling to places with languages that have only a few thousand speakers like Caucasus before, I always wondered if the joke was on me...

 AukWalk 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Tyler:

Erm... No?

I have quite a few connections with Wales.

I don't know what you mean by 'indigenous population' or why they should have any more representation by democratic bodies than 'non-indigenous population' whatever that means to you. 

I also specifically did not tell the 'indigenous population' what they should call anything, what I said was that the official bodies should keep both current names as official names.

So you're implying you think it was incorrect for the national park to set up a task group, and they should have just implemented the councillor's suggestion without further investigation or work? The doesn't seem a little hasty to you? I can see why people in favour of the idea might want it just implemented straight away, but it seems odd to be disappointed a task group has been set up.

I said nothing about 'The Welsh'. I think you k ow exactly what sort of attitude I'm talking about though.

So congratulations on completely misrepresenting what I said and not engaging with it at all despite feeling the need to reply specifically to me.

 Tom V 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Ciro:

We've had this debate before and if you are going to rename major places on the Welsh map then it would make sense to start with major cities and towns; once you have got the British ( and world) population used to  major  names like Abertawe, Caerdydd and Caergybi, then you can start on less significant  features such as mountains.

 Sean Kelly 29 Apr 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

This is a very interesting topic, and personally having lived in the area for a number of years I am in favour of both name changes. There are examples of where this has been sucessfullly changed  such as Denali in place of McKinley, and Uluru for Ayers Rock. Aoraki instead of Mount Cook again reflects the wish of the indiginous peoples. Converserly and famously we have Everest instead of Peak XV, Chomolungma, or Sagarmāthā, and K2 instead of Goodwin-Austin, or Chorgori. Incidently Everest has been pronounced wrong all these years as Sir George Everest was actually pronounced Eve-rest!

The main difficulty with changing from Snowdon to Yr Wyddfa, and from Snowdonia to Eryri is pronunciation for the non Welsh speaker. Not as bad as Holyhead I grant you, which is Caergybi (pronounced as kier-gubby). The translation of Yr Wyddfa is resting place of Rhita, (as according to Welsh legend a giant called Rhita Gawr, the king of Wales, was buried under a cairn of stones on the summit of the mountain, following a battle with King Arthur). Whereas Snowdon is possibly a coruption of the Saxon snow dune, meaning snow hill.

As for Eryri, it is believed to have come from the Latin word oriri (to rise) and was first documented in the 9th Century. Before this it had long been thought to refer to the Welsh name for eagle - Eryr which I think is more likely.

We're OK with Scafell or Scawfell, but Ben Nevis could possibly be updated to Beinn Nibheis, the gaelic spelling but pronounced the same. And then again in the Alps the name depends on which country you are from as with Mont Blanc (Monte Bianco), and the Matterhorn (Cervino and Cervin).

Where will it all stop? The general rule within the Ordnance Survey and the The Great Trigonometrical Survey of India, was always to use the local name if known. This seems the most sensible solution, and just means a bit of re-education for any visitors. Now it just remains for someone with lots of spare time to change all the mountain names back to the original local name in whichever country it is located. Then all the rivers and placesnames etc. etc...

Post edited at 22:33
 Babika 29 Apr 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I don't really mind which name is used but as someone who used to be responsible for putting names on maps (mainly in Middle East countries) I recognise the difficulties in trying to please everyone.

We used to keep trying to put local names on, in phonetic spelling only to be told it wasn't recognised. 

If Yr Wyddfa is used it would be nice if that stays rather than subject to change again.  

Now, how about Everest? 

In reply to Babika:

I think Chomolungma, it's real Tibetan name (meaning 'Mother Goddess of the World' I think), is far better. Interesting facts. Sir George Everest, after whom it was named by British surveyors, objected to his name being used because he himself had had nothing to do with its discovery and he thought it would be difficult to pronounce in Hindi. Interesting fact 2: his name was in fact pronounced "EEVrist" not "EVERist".

 GrahamD 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Babika:

I reckon the 'locals' are happy enough with "Snowdon", given that every other cafe or guest house is called "Snowdon View" (even if it hasn't).

 Michael Gordon 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> We're OK with Scafell or Scawfell, but Ben Nevis could possibly be updated to Beinn Nibheis, the gaelic spelling but pronounced the same. > 

Thankfully in Scotland we've plenty gaelic named hills so can afford to sacrifice the odd anglicisation for the 'iconic' tourist traps. No offence to the Ben which remains magnificent.

 coinneach 30 Apr 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Further to the Uluru and Denali points, all the other subpeaks of the Snowdon massif have their Welsh names. As do all the peaks of the Glyderau, Carneddau, Moelwyns, the Hebogs, and all other peaks of Snowdonia as far as I'm aware. The use of Yr Wyddfa is entirely consistent with this convention.

An official renaming doesn't preclude people from using the English name. The arguement that people won't understand the pronunciantion is fairly facile, the mispronunciation of place names is already well established tradition.

Post edited at 08:39
 Blake 30 Apr 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

100% behind this, Yr Wyddfa is a beautiful name and Snowdonia has always been known as Eryri until relatively recently. Why wouldn't it be primarily known and signposted by it's true name? God forbid tourists have to give in and learn a bit of Welsh pronunciation.

 wercat 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Blake:

Just imagine pandemic style tourists turning up in Llanberis and asking which way they can go up "yer widdler"?

Post edited at 09:44
 Sl@te Head 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> We're OK with Scafell or Scawfell

So your ok with Scafell having a Nordic name?

Surely it needs an English name and also in the interest of fairness a Welsh name which should appear on all maps and signs

 Blake 30 Apr 2021
In reply to wercat:

Cringe 😂 

 BennoC 30 Apr 2021
In reply to jrobinson:

I think sometimes the Welsh place names thing is a bit inconsistent. I live in Abergavenny, and you'd think that's a Welsh name, but it's welsh name is Y Fenni.

Brecon as Aberhonddu I understand, it's similar to Cardigan as Aberteifi. But if something already has a welsh name, then why give it another welsh name? So you can have two lines on a sign?  

A minor point of extreme pedantry.. there are some other hills with non Welsh language names, like Cnicht!

Although the article mentions it was proposed by a councillor, nowhere does it mention if they will consult the people who live in the park! Surely it should be completely up to them? Not me or any others who don't live there, be it England, Scotland or even other parts of Wales.

 cathsullivan 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Tyler:

> It doesn’t have to be, the English name is Snowdon, the Welsh name is Yr Wyddfa, not unreasonably the Welsh are planning to use the Welsh name from now on. 

Seems like a convincing argument to me (not that it's really up to me obviously).

I think people are correct that it will confuse English visitors.  As suggested, if many of us end up going around in circles looking for Mount Snowdon and wondering why it no longer exists that could be a boon in terms of overcrowded parking. One of my embarrassing moments from yesteryear supports this theory.  In another lifetime I used to buy cheese from my local supermarket in England that was called Y Fenni. It was really good. Went on holiday to the Brecon Beacons and while driving around, saw a sign for Y Fenni.  Got it into my head that this was a sign to some kind of cheese outlet ... after driving around for a while in hungry circles, following signs, we of course realised it was just a sign for what we called Abergavenny.  Which is where we already were. Had to go back to England for the cheese.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

It's a National Park.  They should be serving the interests of everyone, not just those who live there.  

The English name has been used for centuries, and is how it is known to most people not only in the UK but overseas visitors, and probably even in Wales where only 30% of the population speaks Welsh.  I am all for encouraging greater awareness of Welsh names, but trying to eradicate the English names is not the way to do it.  How is a visitor supposed to google "Snowdonia National Park" if it is only known as "Parc Cenedleithol Eryri"?

If this was intended to raise awareness of the entirely different problem of incomers giving new English names to Welsh places, it is backfired. Hardly anyone is discussing that.

 r0x0r.wolfo 30 Apr 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

If Snowdon predates Ye Wyddfa by a couple hundred years then I can't see the rationale to ditch the original name apart from the latter name sounds more Welsh. 

When you couple this with the people of Wales knowing it by Snowdon for a thousand years and the fact that the majority of people in Wales do not speak Welsh it does seem like a minority trying to ride roughshod over everyone else. 

 wercat 30 Apr 2021
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Surely it should be a Welsh-ish welcome to Scotland sign as you drive N of Carlisle - after all that was part of Rheged, instead of the SNP lie that this was part of the Highland Gaelic speaking kingdom?

Dunmail will be stirring in his grave and crawling towards the tarn where his crown lies

To the shield wall!

Post edited at 12:29
 Marek 30 Apr 2021
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

> If Snowdon predates Ye Wyddfa by a couple hundred years then I can't see the rationale to ditch the original name apart from the latter name sounds more Welsh. 

Just to be pedantic, 'Snowdon' predated 'Yr Wyddfa' in *written* records. We have little reliable knowledge about beyond that.

Having said that, a mountain is called whatever people call it, not what some authority decide to call it. They can change their name all they like, but if - as I suspect - 90+% of people continue to use the old 'S' name, then there's not much they can do about it except confuse people and become slightly more irrelevant.

I like 'Yr Wyddfa' and I'll use it - probably somewhat mispronounced - when it makes sense (speaking to a Welsh person, perhaps), but otherwise... ?

 afx22 30 Apr 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Just doing a quick check using Google and apparently less than 15% of the Welsh people can speak, read and write in Welsh.

 nufkin 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

>  The main difficulty with changing from Snowdon to Yr Wyddfa, and from Snowdonia to Eryri is pronunciation for the non Welsh speaker

What is the pronunciation for the non-Welsh speaker? 'Ear wither' is my best guess - which I'd happily use, actually, doubtless to the annoyance of folk who know better (see 'Buachaille/The Buckle', Snekky/an t-Sneachda etc)

>  Ben Nevis could possibly be updated to Beinn Nibheis, the gaelic spelling but pronounced the same.

Perhaps a workaround could be to write 'Yr Wyddfa' on the maps and just pronounce it 'Snowdon'? That way proper climbers would get alerted to the fact that the person they're talking to isn't of their tribe if they tried saying 'Yur Widfa'. The same way 'Loughborough' is used to torture Americans

In reply to afx22:

The Annual Population Survey reported that 28.8% of people aged three and over were able to speak Welsh. 16.2% reported that they spoke Welsh daily, 

https://gov.wales/welsh-language-data-annual-population-survey-october-2019-september-2020

 Sean Kelly 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Sl@te Head

> So your ok with Scafell having a Nordic name?

As is most of the Lakes and the extreme northern bit of NW Scotland. But it is all part of our culture and history, as with the influence of Romans, Angles and Normans also.

In reply to nufkin:

> What is the pronunciation for the non-Welsh speaker?

Try this:

youtube.com/watch?v=DCDLGAJmhs4&

 Richard Horn 30 Apr 2021
In reply to nufkin:

I once described a climb of "Li - wed" (Lliwedd) to a Welsh speaker, who knowing full well what I was talking about claimed they had no idea where I was talking about. Then giving me a pretentious look, oh you mean 'li - with'...

I still havent been to the summit of wid-fa though   

 Sl@te Head 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

My comment was just in jest, however my idea of giving Englands highest peak a Welsh name in the interest of fairness makes a valid point. It would be strange wouldn't it, so perhaps that gives a different perspective on things and quite possibly an insight into how things are viewed by some here in Wales.

In reply to Richard Horn:

I suppose "Li-wed" is marginally better than "Lily-wed", which I once heard!

In reply to Marek:

> I must plead guilty though - I live in England, but I've 'Polishised' The name of my house. No one seems to have cared (or possibly even noticed) in 30 years.

I think everyone polishes at least bits of their house occasionally.

 Marek 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

I was waiting for that!

In reply to Sl@te Head:

Many English places also have Welsh names.  However it would be strange to use them alongside the English names because Welsh isn't an official language in England.  There's no more reason to call London "Llundain" than to call it "Londres", unless you're speaking Welsh or French.

Much as I know some would prefer it to be otherwise, English is an official language in Wales and both languages have equal status.  More pragmatically, for a region which is so dependent on tourism it makes little sense to confuse or even alienate visitors by refusing to use the names they are familiar with.

There have been comparisons with Uluru and Denali.  However their English names were much more recent impositions.  In many of these situations they now have twin names - the official name is Uluru/Ayre's Rock, Mt Cook is Aoraki/Mt Cook.  Denali seems to be an exception where the indigenous name (or an approximation of it) completely replaced the English one, but that was already the name commonly used in Alaska.  The names "Snowdon" and "Yr Wyddfa" are both well established and have equal status.

 afx22 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Howard J:

I saw similar figures but noted that there was quite a gap between the percentage than speak Welsh and those that could also read and write in Welsh.  

I also wondered how many of those that can speak Welsh, do so as their prime language.

In reply to afx22:

You should note from the stats on the prevalence of Welsh literacy you presented, the huge regional disparity. Snowdonia National Park is located in Gwynedd, the county with highest number of Welsh first language speakers, second language and overall welsh literacy. And, is bracketed by Anglesey and Ceredigion which also have established Welsh speaking communities.

So the language arguement you use, isn't really valid within the context of North West Wales.

Post edited at 20:04
 afx22 30 Apr 2021
In reply to jrobinson:

Noted and agree that it’s a factor..

 John Gresty 01 May 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Just been looking at a map of Dartmoor and noticed and area called Snowdon. Perhaps we need to call the welsh version by its welsh name to avoid confusion. I wonder if there are any other places called Snowden in the UK. 

John

In reply to jrobinson:

It is true that North Wales is predominantly Welsh-speaking, but that still leaves the 25% of the population of Gwynedd who don't speak Welsh. And, as I pointed out before, this is a National Park authority with a wider responsiblity than just the local population.

The fundamental point is about communicating with people in a language they understand. That is, quite rightly, the point of the Welsh language legislation, but surely that principle extends equally to other languages. That should include using their own language's place names.  Insisting on only using indigenous names would lead to the absurd situation where documents written in Welsh could not refer to "Llundain" and would have to use "London".

There's also the pragmatic argument for an area so dependent on tourism not to confuse visitors, the majority of whom will know it as Snowdon.  I quite understand that many Welsh-speakers see tourism as a threat to their language and culture, which this proposal is aimed at, but also remember that many visitors feel excluded and even unwelcome by the use of Welsh.  This is a complex issue, and I don't believe this is the right way to make visitors and incomers more receptive to the Welsh language.  However I don't think it is likely to happen.

 jezb1 01 May 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

As a long time Englishman in Wales I think it’s a good thing. I don’t speak Welsh but it’s hardly difficult to learn how to say Yr Wyddfa! There’s already a noticeable increase in use of its Welsh name locally.

This isn’t banning people from calling it Snowdon if they choose, so I struggle to see any negative?

 tagscuderia 01 May 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I’d be interested to see if pointing out to said councillor that Snowdon isn’t an English name, would make any difference… ? I’ve always used Yr Wyddfa for the summit, with Snowdon the massif, so I’m probably pissing everybody off!!

But if we’re to remove the Saxon name, should we not revert to the older form i.e. Gwyddfa Rhita y Gawr? To use Yr Wyddfa, you’ve got to recognise and embrace the Arthur fable − perhaps the idea is to turn Snowdon into a King Arthur theme park? And yet all the fable tells me is that ”Yr Wyddfa” must have had a name before Arthur folk-lore was dreamt up… ? So on reflection, I’m happier using Snowdon; thanks for clearing that up for me Cllr John Pughe Roberts.

P.S. I do my level best to always use Welsh names with the correct pronunciation but Eryri is the one that hasn’t stuck − perhaps we should look to reinstate all Roman place names though? That’d be a nice distraction, and voice guided Sat-Nav would have loads of fun!! :-D

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Well the language argument about 25% non Welsh speakers, Jez says he can manage it. Then again, we only have his word on that. Come on Jez next video you make on top of Lion Rock (ermm.... Craig Llew?) and the views are good, point out Yr Wyddfa to us please. The native Welsh speakers can award you marks on how "yer Widdler" or not it your pronunciation is

 rogersavery 01 May 2021
In reply to Howard J:

“Putting the English name in small letters wouldn't work, as both languages must be given equal status.”

It would work as long as the Welsh name was in small letters too

In reply to rogersavery:

Of course. The point is that that Welsh language law means they must use both languages and give both equal prominence.

In reply to Howard J:

> Of course. The point is that that Welsh language law means they must use both languages and give both equal prominence.

Does that apply to names?

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

The discussion of this on Have I Got News for You was illuminating.  The amount of p*ss taking from the English (and unionist Scot) on the panel at the very idea of using a funny looking Welsh name rather than an English one for a mountain in Wales just showed how badly needed it was.

We had the same kind of nonsense in Scotland a few months ago with a crazy Tory complaining she got lost on the way to Fort William because they had Gaelic place names on the road signs as well as English ones.  

 Marek 01 May 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> ... the very idea of using a funny looking Welsh name rather than an English one for a mountain in Wales just showed how badly needed it was.

Or, just as accurately...

"the very idea of using a funny looking Welsh name rather than the English one for a mountain in the UK just showed how pointless it was."

It's all a matter of perspective.

 Marek 01 May 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

It also begs the question as to what 'locals' means today. I'm pretty sure it is different than in 1000AD. One could argue that 'local' is anyone who can visit it and get home in a day. Or perhaps 'local' is people  who actually make use of it (e.g., climb, walk, eat their butties there). Either of those criteria would result in a massive change to 'local' in the last hundred years and would undermine the 'locals would call it YrWyddfa' argument.

I don't know, I'm happy to use 'Yr Wyddfa' if it doesn't confuse my listener, but some (most?) of the arguments (either way) are pretty weak.

 beardy mike 01 May 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Not entirely sure why having two names is a problem? In the Dolomites many of the mountains have 3 names, Italian, Ladin (the local lingo) and German. Sassolungo, Sasslong, Langkofel for example. Or Sasso di Santa Croce, Sas dla Crusc and Heligkreuzkofel. They are all official languages of the country and each has equal precedence. Snowdon has been a given name for longer than the names in the Dolomites, and has considerable history, as does Yr Wyddfa. Even if you issue a dictat to tell people what to call it, I think you might be disappointed to find old habits die hard...

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

if it’s in Wales it should have a Welsh name, as a Catalan I always found it bizarre it was called Snowdon 

 Marek 01 May 2021
In reply to Marek:

> ... but some (most?) of the arguments (either way) are pretty weak.

What seems to be missing here is an emphasis on Welsh language preservation as an objective as opposed to simplistic English-bashing (for political capital?). If this had been part of a concerted language focused campaign - including making Welsh more accessible to non-Welsh speakers - I think this would have had a completely different set of responses, here and elsewhere.

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

There is a concerted effort and a target to increase Welsh speakers to 1 million by 2050. There's a free beginners course in Duolingo. Although the timing of this Yr Wddfa announcement seems to be in the run-up to local elections. Surely that must just be a coincidence...???

 fred99 01 May 2021
In reply to Myfyr Tomos:

Would you like to take this renaming up with David Armstrong-Jones ?

He is the 2nd Earl of Snowdon.

Does this now mean he is to become the 2nd (or would that be 1st) Iarll am Yr Wyddfa ?

And how should we refer to his predecessor, as the 1st Iarll, or by a name he was never known as during his lifetime ? That would take some rewriting of a number of books, plus a fair bit of carving on the odd headstone or plaque.

My job includes printing safety and operating manuals for Furnace operations, something I do in all the European languages. I have often joked that we should do them in Welsh (and Gaelic as well), and then send these to Bridgend and so forth - and not an English version - whenever "celtic" nationalism gets particularly noisy. Of course we would never do so, not because we couldn't (though we'd have innumerable new and rather silly "Welsh" words made up just like "ambulans"), but because it would be just plain dangerous as none of the WELSH workers would be able to read the safety manuals and people would get killed.

Welsh language by all means, but try using common sense and don't change things that have gone on for centuries - or has common sense gone out of the window now that Drakeford thinks he's in charge of an independent Wales ?

 fred99 01 May 2021
In reply to :

Should the Welsh Government next ban any children being given non-Welsh names, and instead insist that only Welsh be used. No more David, only Dafydd, and so forth. Lord knows what we do with surnames.

Then the question of which spelling and pronunciation should be used for names, both of persons and places, as it's long been the case that people in different parts of Cymru/Wales have been completely at odds with each other regarding this.

Of course, my own name is Ian, and I'm English - does that mean I should really only be referred to as Ian (in any of its' variously spelt forms) when I'm in Wales, then as John in England, Jan and Johan (etc.) in various parts of Europe. The list is endless.

The whole thing is a farce, and as someone else further up said- this will go a long way to solving the parking problem in Pen-Y-Pass.

In reply to fred99:

Do you think you're taking this a bit to far?

The thread is about the National Park refering to "Yr Wyddfa" rather than as they currently do "Yr Wyddfa (Snowdon)" See their website for example of current approach. I don't think it was requiring approved names, ethnic cleansing etc, unless of course this is the "thin end of the wedge".

In reply to fred99:

> Would you like to take this renaming up with David Armstrong-Jones ?

> He is the 2nd Earl of Snowdon.

> Does this now mean he is to become the 2nd (or would that be 1st) Iarll am Yr Wyddfa ?

I have a simple way to solve the Earl problem.

 Myfyr Tomos 01 May 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Don't worry Tom. The detractors are doing a splendid job to rally support for the proposal. Give 'em enough rope etc. and open another bag of popcorn. 😉

 Mr Lopez 01 May 2021
In reply to jimtitt:

> Err it's Minga in Bavarian (Bairisch).

I'd advice avoiding referring to it as such if you find yourself in a spanish speaking country

 waitout 02 May 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Anyone else think this was about Edward's new identity protection plan?

Post edited at 01:31
In reply to waitout:

> Anyone else think this was about Edward's new identity protection plan?

Perhaps somebody told the royals that Edward wasn't the best name for a Prince they wanted to send to Scotland.

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

A rose by any other name....

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Counter proposal to call it Mt Yr Wyddfa?

 neuromancer 02 May 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

It's hard for me not to see the similarly unpleasant and boring quasi-though-actually-fully-racist welsh nationalism that I used to see day-in day-out growing up in wales (and speaking welsh) in things like this. But, perhaps, ignoring the fact that the name Snowdon predates its' Welsh counterpart by some time (much like a lot of the welsh language, relatively new in age despite its roots) I have a more ameliorating solution.

When you speak welsh, you use the welsh word for things. If I were speaking Cymraeg, I would refer to the capital of the nation as Caerdydd, not Cardiff. Similarly, if in Italy and speaking Italian, I would refer to the state of Firenze, rather than Florence (Piedmontais exceptionalism aside). The archaepelaego east of China and South of Taiwan is referred to as Japan, rather than Nippon (or 日本 ). So if speaking english, I refer to the highest mountain in the principality of Wales as Snowdon. Since the overwhelming majority of people visiting that location will be English-speaking but not Welsh-speaking, it seems weird to compel speech for no reason other than to satisfy a tiny minority who happen to like playing games.

To the poster who referred to 'the thin end of the wedge', the irony is that's closer than your joke might imagine.

Post edited at 09:06
In reply to neuromancer:

>  it seems weird to compel speech for no reason other than to satisfy a tiny minority who happen to like playing games.

The weird thing is that everyone is talking as though they are being compelled to do anything - they are not. People can carry on calling Yr Wyddfa Snowden and Betws y Coed Betsi Code. It will make no difference to anyone's life but for some reason a lot of people wholly unaffected by this want to suppress usage of the name Yr Wyddfa by others. I can't work out why people who don't live in an area would be so keen undermine that area's language and culture. I can't think of a benevolent motive, anyone want to suggest one?

As for the idea that the name Snowden predates Yr Wyddfa I'm curious to know why the locals would give every other hill in the area a Welsh name but chose an English name for this one. Could it be the people of the region who called Lliwedd Lliwedd, and Crib Goch Crib Goch etc, also called Snowden by some funny Welsh name, possibly Yr Wyddfa? Maybe the people who later started calling it Snowden where ignorant of the original name and that is why it was supplanted in English texts?

In reply to Tyler:

No one is trying to suppress the name "Yr Wyddfa".  Quite the opposite - the councillor's proposal aims to suppress the name "Snowdon", although this would only apply to the Snowdonia National Park Authority/Parc Cenedlaethol Eryri.  All I and others are asking is that the familiar English name can continue to be used alongside the Welsh.  The Park's website already refers to "Yr Wyddfa (Snowdon)" on the English language pages, which seems to be to be perfectly adequate to promote the Welsh name while not confusing non-Welsh-speaking visitors.

 Krustythebrown 02 May 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Who cares what its referred to as, it'll always be referred to as Snowdon. 

 mysterion 02 May 2021
In reply to fred99:

> (though we'd have innumerable new and rather silly "Welsh" words made up just like "ambulans")...

Ambulance is a made up word in English too, you moron.

 mrphilipoldham 02 May 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Surely this is the perfect to chance to alleviate the traffic problems on Yr Wyddfa. Find a small hill, somewhere near a major A road on the English border with a big car park at the bottom and rename it 'Snowdon'. Stick a cafe at the top and 95% of tourists won't know the difference.

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Surely a better name would be ‘Pot Mel Gorlawn, Ysblennydd’..?

 fred99 02 May 2021
In reply to mysterion:

> Ambulance is a made up word in English too, you moron.

ALL words in ALL languages are made up - including moron - you moron.

 fred99 02 May 2021
In reply to Tyler:

> As for the idea that the name Snowden predates Yr Wyddfa .... Maybe the people who later started calling it Snowden where ignorant of the original name and that is why it was supplanted in English texts?

Further up this item it was pointed out that the documentation shows that it was called Snowdon BEFORE it was called Yr Wyddfa. This therefore suggests that, considering there weren't exactly a large number of English second-home owners living there well over a thousand years ago, that Snowdon could just as well be a local, and hence WELSH name, just not one that fits in with CURRENT Welsh (nationalist) thinking. After all, "Snowdon" as a name has no similarity to anywhere in England either.

Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised to be enlightened that many towns and cities, throughout these islands, were actually first set up by the Romans. Surely we should be insisting that the original Latin is used in these cases ?

 wercat 02 May 2021
In reply to mysterion:

no, it was made up by the Romans and we copied it (also as in "pram") because our language has some latin in its chassis

Post edited at 18:06
 wercat 02 May 2021
In reply to fred99:

indeed, Helvellyn (Lauvellen), Blencathra and Glaramara don't sound  the least bit English.  Roman nomen-clature would be an excellent start.

Post edited at 18:02
 wercat 02 May 2021
In reply to Howard J:

Why not just call the railway station Yr Wyfaddfa, as in airports or other railway stations (Bristol Temple Meads).

"Departures for Snowdon Yr Wyfaddfa on Platform 1"

Post edited at 18:04
In reply to fred99:

> Further up this item it was pointed out that the documentation shows that it was called Snowdon BEFORE it was called Yr Wyddfa.

No there isn’t, there’s a document showing Snowdon has been in use for a very long time in documents written by non natives. I’d be surprised if Snowdon or Snowdonia is mentioned in Y Mabinogion, for instance.

> This therefore suggests that, considering there weren't exactly a large number of English second-home owners living there well over a thousand years ago, that Snowdon could just as well be a local, and hence WELSH name, just not one that fits in with CURRENT Welsh (nationalist) thinking. After all, "Snowdon" as a name has no similarity to anywhere in England either.

It doesn’t take a lot of Googling to find that Snowdon is Saxon in origin. Do you think snow in Snowdon refers to the white stuff that falls from the sky? In which case there is a Welsh word for this which bears no similarity. 

> Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised to be enlightened that many towns and cities, throughout these islands, were actually first set up by the Romans. Surely we should be insisting that the original Latin is used in these cases ?

You can insist on whatever you like, no one is telling *you* what to call anything but you seem very keen to tell others what they should call things, why do you even care?

Post edited at 18:31
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

So, in summary arguments against any adoption are:

  • Tourists are too stupid to understand the dual use of a name or read signs
  • No written documented evidence of Yr Wyddfa predating 130xx whatever AD, and assuming that historical Celtic peoples didn't have the ability to name things within their own language.
  • It's Welsh nationalist propaganda
  • Why should I change my actions, when I can already speak English wherever I may roam

I expect toxic Little Englander sentiments on Twitter, but not really on here where hills and mountains have rich cherished history regardless of name. Judging by some peoples' comments, whether they like it or not Welsh history is British history, they're all our isles. The complete lack of regard for choosing to embrace local heritage and culture takes the piss.

Post edited at 20:25
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Snowdon is a Saxon name, there's a village in Kent and colliery (with a 900m+ deep shaft) of that name.

Cnicht is Saxon also, for knight (from the coast it is said to look like a Knight's helmet)

So what though?

Should people rename penguins (derived from white head) because they don't live natively in Wales, or find an English name for Trams when used outside Wales, etc etc

If the locals prefer Yr Wyddfa (and I don't know if the Snowdonia population is going to be consulted) then let's just roll with it. Why does it all have to be so ******* political?

Post edited at 20:40
 Ciro 02 May 2021
In reply to Tom V:

> We've had this debate before and if you are going to rename major places on the Welsh map then it would make sense to start with major cities and towns; once you have got the British ( and world) population used to  major  names like Abertawe, Caerdydd and Caergybi, then you can start on less significant  features such as mountains.

Why would you need to proscribe a specific starting point? Just do it.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Why does it all have to be so political? Because there's an election this week and this sort of culture war stuff riles up the nationalist base without actually rocking the boat or changing anything of note.

In reply to pancakeandchips:

> Why does it all have to be so political? Because there's an election this week and this sort of culture war stuff riles up the nationalist base without actually rocking the boat or changing anything of note.

It's political because we got to this point by a deliberate policy of suppressing Welsh and Gaelic from the central government in London supported by unionists in Scotland and Wales.   It was a literal culture war to try and get rid of Scottish, Welsh and Irish identities and a more civilised version of it is still going on.

'We've pretty much destroyed your language now, hardly anyone speaks it so what's the point of preserving it, it's just a nuisance.'

See also

'We've pretty much stolen all your oil now, there's almost none left, so you are going to be really skint without us and you can't afford to be independent.'

In reply to mysterion:

> Ambulance is a made up word in English too, you moron.

All words are made up. 

Ambulance comes from the Latin ambulare, to move etc..  same origin as amble. 

In reply to pancakeandchips:

> Why does it all have to be so political? Because there's an election this week and this sort of culture war stuff riles up the nationalist base without actually rocking the boat or changing anything of note.

Exactly. There are no measurables to be judged against later on when it comes to nationalism, unlike healthcare, education... etc.. 

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> It's political because we got to this point by a deliberate policy of suppressing Welsh and Gaelic from the central government in London supported by unionists in Scotland and Wales.   It was a literal culture war to try and get rid of Scottish, Welsh and Irish identities and a more civilised version of it is still going on.

> 'We've pretty much destroyed your language now, hardly anyone speaks it so what's the point of preserving it, it's just a nuisance.'

> See also

> 'We've pretty much stolen all your oil now, there's almost none left, so you are going to be really skint without us and you can't afford to be independent.'

That's my point - there's good arguments for independence and good reasons to be angry about the relationship with England. However, this is not one of them.

With all due respect, while there are some parallels, the situation and the case for independence is very different in Scotland and Wales. Cymraeg is spoken as a first language by a huge chunk of the population and is the language children speak in schools. Welsh culture is very much thriving through Eisteddfod and other events that happen regularly in normal times. I'm an incomer who's lived here for five years now and it's normal and expected for people like me to learn Welsh. Is that the same in Scotland?

The history of suppression of Welsh language and culture is shameful and so is the history of exploitation of Welsh labour and resources. Because of this bitter history Welsh nationalism tends to conflate the issues and also tends to be strongly anti-English. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but the impression I get of the Scottish indy movement is that it is progressive and inclusive and that it makes economic arguments as well as appealing to emotion. Welsh independence has much less support for many reasons, economic realities being one, but also because nationalists fail to make arguments which would bring anyone else on board. Its all about belief, faith and, unfortunately, bitterness, rather than promoting a positive vision of what a future independent Wales could be.

 Tom V 03 May 2021
In reply to Ciro:

Because of the principle: if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing properly. 

In reply to jrobinson:

You seem to have it on its head.  This isn't about objecting to the adoption of Yr Wyddfa or the dual use on signs.  That's already happened, and won't change. It's about the removal of the English name from English language publications by the national park authority responsible for running it.  Currently they use "Yr Wyddfa (Snowdon") when using English and just "Yr Wyddfa" when communicating in Welsh.  The Welsh name is already adopted.

I agree that too many visitors take little interest in Welsh heritage and culture, but the Welsh don't always make it easy. Very often it can seem inward-looking and defensive rather than outgoing and welcoming.  Removing the name that English speakers know the most important attraction by cannot help with that.  The current format introduces the Welsh name to English speakers while also explaining what it refers to, and is surely a better way of familiarising visitors with Welsh language and culture than by pretending the English name doesn't exist.

In reply to wercat:

I've never been on the railway but I would expect it uses both the Welsh and English names.  The councillor wishes to call it only by the Welsh name.  However as I keep pointing out this would apply only to usage by the national park authority itself, and signs and mapping would not be affected.

Your "Yr Wyfaddfa" neatly illustrates the potential confusion for English speakers.  The Welsh name is "Yr Wyddfa".

 wercat 03 May 2021
In reply to Howard J:

that was what I thought (the spelling) but then I misread someone else's spelling and lazily assumed I'd had it wrong before.  must have been fatigue from a cold windy bike ride affecting my concentration.

Post edited at 10:51
 fred99 03 May 2021
In reply to Howard J:

> Your "Yr Wyfaddfa" neatly illustrates the potential confusion for English speakers.  The Welsh name is "Yr Wyddfa".

Of course, it is also known as Carnedd Y Cawr. Maybe it should have that name instead ?

 fred99 03 May 2021
In reply to :

Looking at the Councillor's details, it appears that he's a farmer from the edge of the Park, at a point long away from the main area that visitors go to, or indeed that "incomers" would move to, either full time or for holiday homes. His reasoning for any change must therefore be worth questioning.

I suggest that this is purely to raise his profile prior to the election, and that he is not entirely happy at present that he would be re-elected.

It would be far better if he had raised his profile by doing something that actually benefitted the residents (and to a lesser extent visitors) to the National Park, rather than stirring up possible animosity between differing groups of residents and also between residents and visitors. This part of Wales is not renowned for having a vast amount of industry, and relies far more than the south of Wales on tourism.

 GrahamD 03 May 2021
In reply to Howard J:

Just about every cafe and guest house within a 50km radius is called "Snowdon view".  Locals know where their bread is really buttered.

 Tom V 03 May 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

Similar to what I noticed in the Gaeltacht area of Connemara where the road signs denoting place names are by law now exclusively in Gaelic but commercial enterprises and tourist businesses are still allowed to use English in their signage.

 StuPoo2 04 May 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Is the real story here the continuation of small states rolling back of Linguistic Imperialism?

As other have rightly pointed out, you see it happening in Scotland & Ireland as well as many other small nation states around the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_imperialism

"Linguistic imperialism or language imperialism is occasionally defined as "the transfer of a dominant language to other people". This language "transfer" (or rather unilateral imposition) comes about because of imperialism. The transfer is considered to be a sign of power; traditionally military power but also, in the modern world, economic power. Aspects of the dominant culture are usually transferred along with the language."

In Scotland, where I'm from, it is undoubtedly intertwined with the growing nationalist movement.

I don't think this is a stoppable force at present .... 

In reply to pancakeandchips:

> Maybe I'm wrong about this, but the impression I get of the Scottish indy movement is that it is progressive and inclusive and that it makes economic arguments as well as appealing to emotion.

In my experience, very wrong. I did my degree at Bangor UCNW, then went to Stirling to do a PhD. I experienced some anti-English hostility in North Wales, but nothing like the blind hatred I saw in Scotland. This was at a time when Scottish devolution was just around the corner - 'Braveheart' packed out the local cinema for 3-months straight, with Scottish nationalists handing out 'Kick out the British' leaflets at every showing. This newspaper article reflects very well what I saw and experienced.

'Stop trying to send the Sassenachs homewards'

Author accuses some Scots of racism in their attitude towards English 'settlers'     

The Scotsman 21/10/97

HATRED of English settlers north of the Border represents the first tentative steps towards an outbreak of ethnic violence, according to a Scottish historian.

Author Dr James Hunter believes that a growing resentment of the English in some Scottish communities amounts to open racism and should be firmly quashed.

"People who have these views no doubt think they are patriotic Scots, but there is nothing to be proud of in founding your sense of identity on animosity towards other human beings," he said.

"That represents at least putting one foot or maybe two feet on the top of the slippery slope that leads to what happened in Yugoslavia.

"It is a very dangerous issue potentially and it is one we ought to confront and discuss and debate seriously before it gets too late."

Dr Hunter's comments were made in a BBC Frontline Scotland programme on Scottish racism against the English, to be broadcast tonight.

The documentary investigates growing feelings of resentment against so-called "white settlers" across Scotland.

In Brechin recently, two families from Manchester were forced to return south after a vicious cycle of anti-English rumours surfaced at a meeting of the community council.

The Kershaws and the Andersons were accused of causing rising vandalism, crime and an influx of drugs at a time when police said that crime was actually falling.

In the remote west coast village of Sunart on the Ardnamurchan Peninsula, English hotelier John Burgess was forced to sell up after a string of violent incidents.

"There was an anti-English feeling about people taking over businesses in Scotland," he said. "I've had cracked ribs in the bar, we've thrown people out, we've had chairs thrown through windows and flower containers and tables thrown into the loch."

He also received death threats from Settler Watch.

On the Black Isle, anti-English feeling erupted into violence when two teenagers from south of the Border were set upon by a gang. The procurator-fiscal told a court he was convinced anti-English feeling sparked the attack.

Despite the increase in anti-English feeling, Dr Hunter believes the arrival of devolution will ease the problem.

"We now have a great opportunity to create a society where people from all sorts of backgrounds are made to feel a part of the new Scotland," he added.

"That new Scotland won't be worth having if it's based on antagonism, hostility and racism. But I believe that with more autonomy Scots will have no excuse to blame the English for all the ills of the world and that will lead to a better relationship."

In reply to Squidward Tenticles:

Is it really fair to judge the current indy movement on behaviour 25 years ago? That's similar logic to that which blames English people personally for the sins of their ancestors.

In reply to StuPoo2:

> Is the real story here the continuation of small states rolling back of Linguistic Imperialism?

From my experience of living in North Wales, and those of others I knew whilst there - especially those with school-age children - the determination to make Welsh the dominant language is driven by the understanding that this is an effective way to keep 'outsiders' (that is people from England) from moving to Wales to live.

Some might like to put an 'imperialist' spin on this, but in the end it is just another manifestation of the 'us and them', in-group vs out-group' mindset that is such a defining feature of human nature. Only difference is that, whilst English nationalist sentiment is universally portrayed in  a wholly negative manner, Welsh and Scottish nationalism are generally presented in a wholly positive way, even though the underlying psychology is much the same.

In reply to Squidward Tenticles:

> The Scotsman 21/10/97

> HATRED of English settlers north of the Border represents the first tentative steps towards an outbreak of ethnic violence, according to a Scottish historian.

Its 2021.  This article was written in 1997.  There's been no outbreak of ethnic violence.  So clearly the author was wrong.

In reply to pancakeandchips:

> Is it really fair to judge the current indy movement on behaviour 25 years ago? That's similar logic to that which blames English people personally for the sins of their ancestors.


Hardly, the Brits involved in the clearances and so on have been dead for a couple of hundred years. Conversely the attitudes I experience seem not only to be still prevalent, it is most likely the same people expressing them!

In reply to Squidward Tenticles:

> From my experience of living in North Wales, and those of others I knew whilst there - especially those with school-age children - the determination to make Welsh the dominant language is driven by the understanding that this is an effective way to keep 'outsiders' (that is people from England) from moving to Wales to live.

That's just bollocks. It's not all about you you know.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Its 2021.  This article was written in 1997.  There's been no outbreak of ethnic violence.  So clearly the author was wrong.


He didn't say there would be an outbreak of ethnic violence. (Assuming, of course, that one discounts the 'us and them', hate-driven incidents that the article describes.) Rather, he said that anti-English sentiments constituted the "first tentative steps towards an outbreak of ethnic violence" and also suggested that "the arrival of devolution will ease the problem." 

His main point was that the anti-English attitudes being expressed were, at a psychological level, no different to those that led to 'ethnic cleansing' in Yugoslavia, and he was right.

In reply to pancakeandchips:

> That's just bollocks. It's not all about you you know.


Ok, if you prefer, 'a happy side-effect'. (And in the long run a policy that is likely to be rather more effective in deterring 'English settlers'  than fire-bombing holiday homes, making death-threats and the local youths menacing tourists using the Spar shop in Llanberis!)

 ianstevens 04 May 2021
In reply to Squidward Tenticles:

> Ok, if you prefer, 'a happy side-effect'. (And in the long run a policy that is likely to be rather more effective in deterring 'English settlers'  than fire-bombing holiday homes, making death-threats and the local youths menacing tourists using the Spar shop in Llanberis!)

In my experience of the place it's less about "English Settlers" and more about:

1. Holiday homes full stop, which are eroding local communities. Bit galling to have to move from the village your family has lived in for generations due to a lack of housing, whilst people from further afield are buying second homes which are either left empty or used for tourism, whilst sucking money out of the area.

2/3. Tw*ts will be tw*ts, nationalism or otherwise. 

Post edited at 12:22
 Marek 04 May 2021
In reply to StuPoo2:

On the subject of 'language imperialism' I'd recommend "Empires of the Word - A Language History of the World" by Nicholas Ostler. It looks at the forces that have determined which languages has come to dominate periods of history (Sumerian to modern) and which have not. One point he makes is that there's actually a pretty weak correlation between 'imperialism' and language adoption. Pragmatism (on the part of both sides), as in the need to communicate effectively on a day-to-day basis, has been a much stronger (but not the only) indicator of language longevity. 

In reply to ianstevens:

> In my experience of the place it's less about "English Settlers" and more about: 1. Holiday homes full stop...

Welsh nationalists seem to hate English incomers ('white settlers') full stop, and that likely includes the 85% of the locals who supported the arson campaign. (And perhaps this renaming stuff really is just a continuation of the fight against perceived English 'Imperialism'.)

"Yesterday’s ‘St. David’s Day Declaration’ by the clandestine fire raisers calling themselves Meibion Glyndwr (The Sons of Glendower) places the wilder fringe of the national movement firmly in the mould of racists everywhere.

Every white settler is a target. We will bury English imperialism,’ announced the anonymous letter which dropped through the letterbox of the BBC in Bangor. With four lethal firebombs planted since last Friday, terrorism is on the Sons’ agenda too."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/01/shadow-of-ulster-in-welsh-valleys-1989

 Sl@te Head 04 May 2021

Some background reading / history re the Welsh Not....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not

In reply to Squidward Tenticles:

So now you're 32 years out of date. I'm an English incomer in western mid Wales, I've been here for 5 years, and I haven't experienced any of the stuff you're talking about. There is antipathy towards second homes which I'm fully on board with having lost my home over the pandemic whilst rich people from cities buy up holiday pads. That's not anti-English except incidentally. There are some old, bitter and unfriendly welsh nationalists and the movement in general, I feel, doesn't do enough to make a case beyond hiraeth. However, there is also a younger generation of locals and incomers who are less parochial and more forward looking. I've felt welcome and made loads of friends and now I feel like this is my home.

In reply to pancakeandchips:

> So now you're 32 years out of date. I'm an English incomer in western mid Wales, I've been here for 5 years, and I haven't experienced any of the stuff you're talking about.

All this was very much a North Wales thing, then, as now, the hotbed of Welsh Nationalism / the Welsh Language supremacy movement.

As to being '32 years out of date', antipathies and hatreds tend to linger for a lot longer than that, even if direct actions tend to wax and wane. Just look at the situation in Northern Ireland: the Good Friday Agreement was 23 years ago, but does anyone really believe that all the hostilities it attempted to contain have gone away? If they had why the continued need to keep the communities separated by all those razor-wire topped 'peace walls'? Again, look at the Orange marchers in Ulster, Glasgow and so on - the Battle of the Boyne was 331 years ago!

 fred99 04 May 2021
In reply to ianstevens:

> In my experience of the place it's less about "English Settlers" and more about:

> 1. Holiday homes full stop, which are eroding local communities. Bit galling to have to move from the village your family has lived in for generations due to a lack of housing, whilst people from further afield are buying second homes which are either left empty or used for tourism, whilst sucking money out of the area.

Something that a large number of English suffer from as well, indeed a larger number than the entire population of Wales, including Cardiff and Swansea. Just look at Cornwall, Devon, and all the way up to Herefordshire, Worcestershire and Shropshire.

Why do so many in North Wales think ALL English are the same, rather than concentrating on the real problem. Indeed, tarring us all with the same brush is the very definition of racism.

 wercat 04 May 2021
In reply to fred99:

it is quite, simply, discrimination on basis of race.

Is TiE not racist with his anti English comments?

Post edited at 13:45
In reply to Squidward Tenticles:

I work throughout North Wales in farming communities. I'm telling you, from current experience, that your perception is out of date. Wales is not NI. The articles you've posted are ancient and don't reflect the current reality.

 StuPoo2 04 May 2021
In reply to Marek:

> One point he makes is that there's actually a pretty weak correlation between 'imperialism' and language adoption. Pragmatism (on the part of both sides), as in the need to communicate effectively on a day-to-day basis, has been a much stronger (but not the only) indicator of language longevity. 

Yeah ... I imagine you're 100% right.

What is more interesting for me I think would be an investigation into apparently why secession minded nationalist governments are interested in the advancement of historic low use/low economic value languages.  

The Scottish Gov has an Gaelic Language plan [1] which itself acknowledges that 98.9% [2] of the population of Scotland can neither read, write or understand Gaelic and yet .. they're putting money into it.  (I couldn't find reference to whether this was an opportunity costs i.e. at the expense of something else or net new money ... I am sure someone will tell me. If it's an opportunity cost - I would love to know what we're not getting so that we can get this .... ??)

Like so many Scots - Gaelic doesn't define me as a Scot in anyway.  I don't speak it, read it, write it or understand it.  My exposure to it is limited, pretty much exclusively, to road signs and hill names on maps.  My culture and identity isn't wrapped up in Gaelic.

The real question, for me, is why is it being advanced?  Is it simply that they don't want to see it die out - which would be fair and we should find the money to maintain our cultural treasures ... or is it a convenient mechanism to create an in-group - "the special club that are different from the outsiders"?

My guess is that it's probably a little bit of both ...  

[1] https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-government-gaelic-language-plan-2016-2021/pages/2/

[2] https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-government-gaelic-language-plan-2016-2021/pages/4/#:~:text=National%20Demographics%20%2D%20Number%20of%20Gaelic%20Speakers&text=The%20total%20number%20of%20people,were%20able%20to%20speak%20Gaelic.

 ianstevens 04 May 2021
In reply to Squidward Tenticles:

> Welsh nationalists seem to hate English incomers ('white settlers') full stop, and that likely includes the 85% of the locals who supported the arson campaign. (And perhaps this renaming stuff really is just a continuation of the fight against perceived English 'Imperialism'.)

> "Yesterday’s ‘St. David’s Day Declaration’ by the clandestine fire raisers calling themselves Meibion Glyndwr (The Sons of Glendower) places the wilder fringe of the national movement firmly in the mould of racists everywhere.

> ‘Every white settler is a target. We will bury English imperialism,’ announced the anonymous letter which dropped through the letterbox of the BBC in Bangor. With four lethal firebombs planted since last Friday, terrorism is on the Sons’ agenda too."

A few extremist actions a few years ago =/= the mindset of all nationalists. Concerning for sure, but not representative of the now much changed nationalist movement.

 Marek 04 May 2021
In reply to StuPoo2:

At one level I think that there are good reasons to support minority languages. It somehow seems really sad when you read how there's only a few old people speaking some old language and knowing that when they've gone, some bit of cultural richness will be gone from the world. Language and culture are inextricably entwined - some much of literature, songs, stories and attitude simply don't translate from one language to another. Personally I value cultural diversity - life would be boring if we were all the same - and language is a big part of that.

As to how that gets used (or abused) - well I suppose politics (the pursuit of power) always has used and will continue to use whatever means are at its disposal. We just have to be balance the hard-to-define good of cultural and linguistic  diversity against the negative side effects of political abuse.

To those who have argued that anti-English sentiment in Wales is not as pronounced as it was 20-odd years ago, that is good to hear, and as I said earlier, "I experienced some anti-English hostility in North Wales, but nothing like the blind hatred I saw in Scotland." Overall, I loved the time I spent living in Wales. (Scotland was another matter altogether.)

It would be interesting to understand the reasons behind this change. After all, antipathies do tend to fester for decades, if not centuries. (Case in point, the Meibion Glyndwr lot took their name from someone who died over 600 years ago...) I doubt that 'concerns' about second home ownership and so on have gone away (and a search does bring up some more recent examples of English 'white settlers' being targeted), and support for Welsh Independence seems to be on the rise. Just because holiday homes are not been burnt down and death threats are being sent out in the post doesn't mean that the Welsh no longer think of the English in terms of 'them and us'. As the language issue illustrates, the opposite seems to be true, with there being an ever-greater determination to differentiate and protect 'Welshness' from 'the other'.

I suppose my real issue is the fact that I find it hard to view such 'us and them' thinking - and even more so Nationalist sentiments - in a positive way. I had thought that Nationalism was generally viewed as a dangerous leftover from the 19th and 20th century, whilst the 'us and them' mindset was just the most atrocious leftover from mankind's tribal roots.

If we accept (as generally seems to be the case) that, in reality, it is good to be 'proud to be Welsh' (or Scottish) and that it is a positive thing to defend ones values and culture from 'outside threats', then surely doesn't the same logic apply to being English? Shouldn't it be possible to say 'I am proud of my English heritage' without being labelled as a racist , a 'white supremacist', 'right wing extremist' and so forth, and shouldn't pushing back against 'alien' cultural influences be seen as positive in this case also? Or is the solution just to take which might be called the 'Guardian approach' and apply a copious degree of 'reality control' and doublethink to such issues?

If only life was less complicated!

In reply to Marek:

> We just have to be balance the hard-to-define good of cultural and linguistic  diversity against the negative side effects of political abuse.

I have always thought that the main socio-cultural purpose of there being so many different languages was so that one knew who was in your 'tribe' and whose head you might have to bash in. Same with accents, be it Merseyside, Tyneside or wherever: local accents always seem to develop that are peculiar to a certain community, which then act as identifiers - both as a member of that group and when straying onto someone else's turf. Thus, for example, a 'plastic Scouser' from Birkenhead is easily distinguished from a true Liverpudlian, and a good kicking dispensed when appropriate.

 Rob Parsons 04 May 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> ... Incidently Everest has been pronounced wrong all these years as Sir George Everest was actually pronounced Eve-rest!

What's the evidence for that claim?

 Sean Kelly 09:33 Wed
In reply to Rob Parsons

> What's the evidence for that claim?

Everest pronounced as Eeve-rest is quite well documented. I first came across this when researching the history of the GTS of India, but also found evidence going back to family descendants who supported this evidence.

The most interesting fact about the GTS of India was the brilliant mathematician that actually calibrated all the figures. Radianth  Sardar is  virtually unknown today but really is responsible for actually defining Everest as the Earth's highest peak.

Post edited at 09:44
In reply to wercat:

> it is quite, simply, discrimination on basis of race.

Since when is 'English' a race?   It's a nationality.  Genetically and in terms of visible appearance how would you tell the difference between Scots and English.

> Is TiE not racist with his anti English comments?

Is your argument that it is rascist for people in a colonised country to dislike the colonisers?

So if a country has an empire and commits atrocities all over the world it is rascist for anyone who lives in a formerly (or currently) colonised country to harbour any kind of grudge.

The Irish better not bear a grudge for the potato farm, the Scots should just forget about the clearances, the Chinese better not have a problem with the opium wars, South Africans should forget about the concentration camps used in the Boer war etc.

That's a very convenient doctrine for the colonists.

 wercat 10:47 Wed
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

that's a narrative you choose to tell, doesn't make it true

which side you support then, Serb or Croat?

Post edited at 10:48
 Sean Kelly 10:53 Wed
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> In reply to Rob Parsons

> Everest pronounced as Eeve-rest is quite well documented. I first came across this when researching the history of the GTS of India, but also found evidence going back to family descendants who supported this evidence.

> The most interesting fact about the GTS of India was the brilliant mathematician that actually calibrated all the figures. Radianth  Sardar is  virtually unknown today but really is responsible for actually defining Everest as the Earth's highest peak.

More information can be gleaned from the India Office Records at the British Library.

 wercat 10:53 Wed
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

plus do you know how many scots were involved with dodgy banking in HSBC - you should have seen how those pirates behaved in respect to Midland Bank. 

You find Scots all over the world exploiting other humans and doing good depending on what kind of person they were.  Just like all humans.  You Saintly Scot

I spent years working up in the NW in the 80s and never met your stinking attitudes

I find it very hard to believe in any professionalism from you if you are so incapable of good judgement

But you are very good at making enemies of people you could have as friends.  That's a Double Debit!

Post edited at 10:56
 galpinos 11:27 Wed
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I’m quite surprised at the strength of feeling against the name change. It may well have been proposed by a Welsh Nationalist councillor but I do find Yr Wyddfa a lot more evocative than Snowdon and do think there is something about Gaelic names that bring the mountains to life. I have a real soft spot for Snowdonia and I think I’ll now use Yr Wyddfa more from now on......

I think trying to erase the name “Snowdon” is a fools errand and a branding disaster for the Snowdonia Tourist Board but raising the prominence of the Welsh name seems sensible to me and I welcome it, as long as they help us English tourists to pronounce it!

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

So your 'argument' is that it is fine and dandy for people living today to hate or 'bear a grudge' against people of other nations / races / social groups because of things that happened centuries ago, events though those living today had no control over those events? 

Sorry, but 'bearing a grudge' against English people living today because of what was done - often centuries ago -  in the name of the country they were born in sounds even less rational than hating all Muslims because of all the terrorist atrocities that have been carried out in recent years the name of Islam!

Following your 'logic' we should also continue to hate modern Italians for the Roman conquests; the Danish, Swedes and Norwegians for the Saxon / 'Viking' invasions; the French for the Norman conquests and the Arab nations for the Arab slave trade which saw the coasts of Europe - including those of England and Scotland - being raided for slaves, with likely over one million being captured.  Etc. Etc. Perhaps people living in England today should also hate the Scots for the massacres carried out across England by the likes of Wallace. When it comes to more recent history how about the English hating the Germans for the Blitz? After all, that was only 70-odd years ago. 

Let's be creative, I am sure we can all rationalise the hatred of some group or other that we do not belong to if we try, especially if we delve deep enough into the history books! 

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Is your argument that it is rascist for people in a colonised country to dislike the colonisers?

Is it your argument that it is acceptable for an individual currently living in an historically colonised country to dislike an individual who happens to come from an historically colonising country purely on that basis?  

Post edited at 12:00
 wercat 12:03 Wed
In reply to Squidward Tenticles:

I think I understand now - TiE is a scottish Nigel Farage, a stirrer of discontent and dislike.

I don't hold his comments against Scotland or the Scots - I hold them wholly against him just as I hold the harm of Brexit against the shitty traitor who shat on us by promoting its poison

In reply to galpinos:

> I’m quite surprised at the strength of feeling against the name change. It may well have been proposed by a Welsh Nationalist councillor but I do find Yr Wyddfa a lot more evocative than Snowdon and do think there is something about Gaelic names that bring the mountains to life. I have a real soft spot for Snowdonia and I think I’ll now use Yr Wyddfa more from now on......

> I think trying to erase the name “Snowdon” is a fools errand and a branding disaster for the Snowdonia Tourist Board but raising the prominence of the Welsh name seems sensible to me and I welcome it, as long as they help us English tourists to pronounce it!

I think it's fuss about nothing and I have no problem with either or both names being used as appropriate and according to the preference of the user.  As others have noted, nobody seems to worry about alpine peaks having two or three names and lots of places have both local and 'official' labels. 

Climbers have always had their own names for crags, buttresses and peaks that are rarely what they are called on the OS map or by the locals.  I do think it's polite to try to at least be able to recognise the local name - is there really anyone on here who wasn't already perfectly well aware where Yr Wyddfa was?

 GrahamD 13:45 Wed
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> - is there really anyone on here who wasn't already perfectly well aware where Yr Wyddfa was?

"WAS" ? what are you telling us ?

 Webster 14:45 Wed
In reply to Myfyr Tomos:

> It's worked for Uluru and Denali, so why not Yr Wyddfa? 😊

because mckinley and ayres rock (however they were spelt) were colonialist names imposed on a pre-existing population as part of the 'conquest'.  Snowdon has been snowdon for a 1000 years or more and potentially pre-dates Yr Wrddfa, at least in written form.

to remove the name from official sources is anglophobic and 'welsh-washing'. it is discriminatory to the vast majority of people in the british isles who dont speak welsh and there is no justification for it. if there is a problem with farms and lakes being anglesized, then deal directly with the problem, bring in laws to stop places from being re-named in english, dont change the name of a mountain which has been known that way for centuries.

 fred99 14:56 Wed
In reply to wercat:

> it is quite, simply, discrimination on basis of race.

> Is TiE not racist with his anti English comments?

Well I think so.

And considering the law says that it is the view of the (reasonable) person who thinks they're being discriminated (or insulted etc.) against, not the person doing it, then so he is.

In reply to Webster:

> because mckinley and ayres rock (however they were spelt) were colonialist names imposed on a pre-existing population as part of the 'conquest'.  Snowdon has been snowdon for a 1000 years or more

I think the Welsh and the Welsh language predates that!

> and potentially pre-dates Yr Wrddfa, at least in written form.

’potentially’ doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

> dont change the name of a mountain which has been known that way for centuries.

It’s a pity you weren’t around 1000 years ago when some decided to give Yr Wyddfa an unsuitable anglicised name!

 gravy 15:16 Wed

So far everyone had got it wrong.

The correct term is "Mount Yr Wyddfa"

 wercat 15:25 Wed
In reply to Tyler:

My understanding is that SnowDune has a Saxon derivation.

The pre Invasion language of significant parts of what is now England but not the language of the Normans.  When did the conquest and colonisation of what is now called Wales begin?

I believe it really happened after N-Day in 1066 during the period that the Normans were oppressing Saxons et al just as much as anything they were doing in Wales.   It shows little solidarity between the pre-Invasion races of Britannia for those parts of the old north British who now live in Wales to be taking issue with a Saxon name when the Saxons were as much oppressed and marginalised as where the old British tribes by the Norman ubermenschen and the God appointed feudal system they imposed on England and Wales that lasted at least until WW1.

You are aware of course that Saxon life was rather more egalitarian than the Norman Bastards and this is shewn quite plainly by the fact that the offence of "Murder" was originally only applicable to the killing of a Frenchman post invasion.

Post edited at 15:28
 fred99 15:28 Wed
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Since when is 'English' a race?   It's a nationality.  Genetically and in terms of visible appearance how would you tell the difference between Scots and English.

So why do you hate us English so much if we're the same people ?

> Is your argument that it is rascist for people in a colonised country to dislike the colonisers?

If Elizabeth the first had produced an heir, then we wouldn't have had James 1st (of England, and 6th of Scotland) - as it is, from that date we have effectively been under one ruling class, and 1705 just cemented matters.

> So if a country has an empire and commits atrocities all over the world it is rascist for anyone who lives in a formerly (or currently) colonised country to harbour any kind of grudge.

If the British Empire was so bad, then how come it's evolved into the Commonwealth. Hardly indicates universal hatred for the British. Compare that to the feelings held for their former masters in what were French colonies for example - or indeed ex Russian colonies !

> The Irish better not bear a grudge for the potato farm, the Scots should just forget about the clearances, the Chinese better not have a problem with the opium wars, South Africans should forget about the concentration camps used in the Boer war etc.

The ENGLISH Prime Minister tried to use grain to revent the famine, but was outvoted by the IRISH farming lobby - the Eire Government acknowledges this as a fact.

The clearances were carried out by SCOTTISH landlords, who put shepherds and their sheep form principally DUMFRIES AND GALLOWAY (part of SCOTLAND !) in place of the indigenous peoples.

The main sellers of opium to China were in fact SCOTTISH merchants, NOT English.

The concentration camps in South Africa were British, but deaths were the result of disease caused by incompetence, not design - exactly the same reason as the large number of deaths to British troops due to poor conditions in the Crimean War. It took some time before bureaucracy actually worked out how to get things right.

> That's a very convenient doctrine for the colonists.

 wercat 16:11 Wed
In reply to fred99:

It is also worth pointing out that this is a somewhat dishonest use of "concentration camp" as the term took on a wholly different context post 1933, one that would have been in no one's minds before that time, certainly not pre 1917.

It is a deliberate attempt that some people make to imply that the British Government envisaged some kind of genocide or total solution to the Boer problem when in fact the meaning of concentration camps as we know them now lies decades in the future and light years away in terms of what could have been imagined during the Boer War.

Total dishonesty - but I suppose that is the kind of looseness with "history" that leads people to compare Churchill with Hitler on these forums.

Dominic Cummings would be proud of a "hit" like that.

In reply to wercat:

> It is also worth pointing out that this is a somewhat dishonest use of "concentration camp" as the term took on a wholly different context post 1933, one that would have been in no one's minds before that time, certainly not pre 1917.

It's hardly 'dishonest' when the term 'concentration camps' was used at the time of the Second Boer War to describe these camps. It's certainly true that the term took on an altogether darker meaning when Nazi Germany adopted their use, but I'm afraid that your apparent dismissal of the use of the term in the context of South Africa does rather look like an attempt to whitewash the history. 

 Webster 21:21 Wed
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> but I'm afraid that your apparent dismissal of the use of the term in the context of South Africa does rather look like an attempt to whitewash the history. 

'Whitewash'? you do realise the Boer's were white dutch colonisers themselves...

 Webster 21:30 Wed
In reply to Tyler:

> It’s a pity you weren’t around 1000 years ago when some decided to give Yr Wyddfa an unsuitable anglicised name!

the anglo-saxons never colonised the Welsh Britons. they simply co-existed and intermingled, occasionally fighting each other, occasionally supporting each other against other 'invaders'.

the saxons had their name for the mountain, the britons no dobt had their name for it, but whether or not it was Yr Wyddfa i guess we might never know. 

having different place names for places in different languages is perfectly normal and acceptable and is worlds apart from the issues around the names of places like Denali.

In reply to Webster:. 

> having different place names for places in different languages is perfectly normal and acceptable and is worlds apart from the issues around the names of places like Denali.

Which is why no one has ever said we’re going to do away with any name be it a Welsh one, an English one or any other, just that an organisation in Wales might chose to use the Welsh name for a Welsh hill in Wales. How is that discrimination? Discrimination would be a nation being prevented from speaking their own language in their own country. I’m guessing the Welsh knot did not come up when you were Googling Welsh history. 

In reply to Dave Garnett:

> Is it your argument that it is acceptable for an individual currently living in an historically colonised country to dislike an individual who happens to come from an historically colonising country purely on that basis?  

The problem with England is it is far too long since it had a revolution or lost a major war.  The power structures have persisted for centuries where in other European countries they have been overturned and instead of coming to terms with its past like the Germans have done the English are proud of it and try to defend it.   

If the English want forgiveness the first step would be to apologise and change.  Start with abolishing the monarchy and aristocracy and accepting that Scotland doesn't need permission from Tories in London to hold an independence referendum.  And don't expect place names to be in English in regions where the English have tried to suppress the local language.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> The problem with England is......  

> If the English want forgiveness.......

This is yet another thread which is far past its sell by date 

Enough already 

In reply to profitofdoom:

Totally agree, this thread has devolved into farce. However, tom_in_edinburgh's assertions of Anglocentrism and majoritarian rule of English opinion have some validity. It is precisely the obbsessive preoccupation to have a determining say on regional cultural matters, that have spawned tangential tirades and caused friction. 

 Lankyman 08:33 Thu
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> The problem with England is it is far too long since it had a revolution or lost a major war.  The power structures have persisted for centuries where in other European countries they have been overturned and instead of coming to terms with its past like the Germans have done the English are proud of it and try to defend it.   

> If the English want forgiveness the first step would be to apologise and change.  Start with abolishing the monarchy and aristocracy and accepting that Scotland doesn't need permission from Tories in London to hold an independence referendum.  And don't expect place names to be in English in regions where the English have tried to suppress the local language.

I haven't heard any Scots apologising for the various atrocities committed by the likes of Robert Bruce on the English. I suppose his big journeys through all the northern counties were just cultural trade missions? Perhaps every northern English place name with a Scottish origin should be renamed. Which of the many historical languages of Scotland would you like to prevail? Gaelic, Norse, Cumbrian, Irish, Pictish or whichever Iron Age tribe held sway at whatever golden age you care to choose?

In reply to Lankyman:

> Perhaps every northern English place name with a Scottish origin should be renamed. Which of the many historical languages of Scotland would you like to prevail?

 

How many times does it need saying that no one is proposing changing any names? If the proposal went ahead the name that is currently in use by many will be the one used by this particular organisation.

And yes, you can use a different name for northern towns if you want  No one is telling you what you should call them which is rather different to this situation where a lot of people are telling this group what they can call Yr Wyddfa

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> The problem with England is it is far too long since it had a revolution or lost a major war.  The power structures have persisted for centuries where in other European countries they have been overturned and instead of coming to terms with its past like the Germans have done the English are proud of it and try to defend it.   

> If the English want forgiveness the first step would be to apologise and change.  Start with abolishing the monarchy and aristocracy and accepting that Scotland doesn't need permission from Tories in London to hold an independence referendum.  And don't expect place names to be in English in regions where the English have tried to suppress the local language.

All very contentious (and predictable), but not actually an answer to my question. 

And, to be clear, I'm English and I don't feel in the slightest inclined to accept any guilt for anything that happened long before I was born.  I'm actually very sympathetic to Scottish independence, just not the way you demand it.  Abolishing the monarchy is a great example of how to undermine your own position and I'm no passionate royalist either.  What Scotland chooses to do after independence is its own business, but demanding such radical change to the whole UK prior to that, without a shred of evidence of popular support, is a great way of ensuring you never get what you want.

 Lankyman 09:27 Thu
In reply to Tyler:

Sorry. I'm responding to Tom's rant about the unapologetic English.

In reply to Lankyman:

> Sorry. I'm responding to Tom's rant about the unapologetic English.

Well by that sentence you are proving you aren’t one of them! Apology accepted

 wercat 09:47 Thu
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

you have my point entirely wrong.  I was talking about the use of the term in the modern sense  (all of us here know only too well from seeing as 10 year olds at school  films of ashes in the furnaces and piles of bodies) without distinguishing the term as it was used in the Boer War

I challenge you heartily to point out where I suggested that the word was not used at the time of the Boer War, a fact that I have known since I was a teenager and have never denied

It is pretty clear that the dishonesty I referred to and I still assert is to depend on people's unfamiliarity with the earlier meaning to create a fuzzy relationship between Nazi atrocities and a disastrous policy undertaken by a British government.

Cummings would have been proud and I think TiE is an agent provocateur or else zealot taking advantage of the tactics.

Totally dishonest arguments and I am not giving way.

 Lankyman 10:50 Thu
In reply to Tyler:

> Well by that sentence you are proving you aren’t one of them! Apology accepted

I'm a Scouser so probably fairly mongrel origins

 neuromancer 11:00 Thu
In reply to Lankyman:

Why does anyone ever respond to Tom's rants? Why hasn't he been banned ages ago for being a racist troll? 

 fred99 11:15 Thu
In reply to Lankyman:

> I'm a Scouser so probably fairly mongrel origins

Aren't all of us "English" the biggest bunch of mongrels in the world. I certainly am.


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