UKH

An astonishingly good definition of scrambling on the BBC News website today (in connection with a tragedy on the Aonach Eagach): 'a mountaineering term meaning hillwalkers using their hands to help keep their balance on steep, difficult terrain.'

Really? I thought scrambling was when use of hands was needed for progress rather than just balance.

It becomes an issue when taking scouts into the hills as there's no easy way to be permitted for scrambling, but terrain 2 (roughly aligned with ML standard) allows for rocky terrain where a slip could become a fall and the use of hands for balance. But no routes requiring planned use of rope.

It does seem the inclusion of exposed but not technical walks into scrambling guides as grade 1 is blurring the line. 

There was a long discussion here that probably doesn't need doing again : https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/hill_talk/settle_an_argument_-_crib_goch_... 

I just heard on the news that 3 people had been found (dead) in Glencoe after going missing. Is that the news item that this refers to? I had been wondering where they had been found, but presumably down from the Aonach Eagach.

It is yes, and yes, somewhere around the Aonach Eagach according to the BBC.

Good luck crossing the Aonach Eagach on a wet windy day using only hands for balance. 

You missed the point. I was referring to the definition that anything requiring hands for balance is a scramble. In high winds, any exposed walk is going to be dangerous, rocky or not.

I think it depends on your experience and ability, for climbers we can get up many routes using balance alone as long as there are sufficient footholds. It's easy for a good climber to say they can balance across a graded ridge hands free. But that's not the standard for scrambling, it's the point at which most hill walkers would be resorting to hand holds, not simply fending off to keep their weight over their feet as a good climber would.  That's why many grade 1s are graded as such, despite just being a bit of a steepish rocky walk to a climber. 

I thought the same. Even someone with no climbing experience will use their hands primarily for balance rather than yarding themselves upwards on something like the Aonach Eagach. Of course it's imperfect and open to pedantry but this description jumped out at me as being surprisingly faithful to the idea of scrambling compared to the hyperbole the press usually spews out about any mountaineering accident.

Yes. The point is that handholds are generally used very lightly/are not heavily weighted in scrambling (unless one’s style is complete crap).

Many grade 3 scrambles include what I would define as climbing grade moves, albeit relatively easy and definitely require pulling hard. I always thought my style was OK.

I can think of very few grade 3 scrambles that require a powerful pull-up. One of the notches on the Cuillin Ridge (not the TD Gap - far north of that) - can’t remember what it’s called - has a steep /overhanging wall for about 10 feet that requires a big pull-up.

The scout permits and scrambling leads to just as may arguments as the ml remit

From Basteir Tooth to Am Basteir? (severe or 5b further left ?)

No way is that a scramble. In my Cuillin book I gave it ‘at least RIV’, which converted into British rockclimbing grades is Hard V Diff to Severe. But it’s hard to give it an adjectival grade because it’s really a sort of boulder problem. What I’m referring to is what you describe as ‘further left’, because  you can’t go any further left. I called it ‘the Mouth’ because that’s what it looks like from a distance from the north side. Or maybe someone else had already called it the Mouth. Can’t remember.

Photo from my book. The Mouth is right at the top, just left of centre:

http://bit.ly/3DUX0y9

PS. I’d say it’s about a 4B move rather than 5B, but I can’t really remember.

True, but I don't think that a definition of something can depend on individual differences, it has to be more absolute. A possible definition could be, you're scrambling if you could touch the ground with your hands without bending at the waist. That doesn't mean you have to use your hands, but you could.

Yeah. For me to enjoy a scramble, the use of hands must be necessary and include some easy climbing moves, even if that means seeking that out, e.g. the route up Sron na Creise north shoulder allows for ease and harder options but the fun is in adding some hands on action.

Well, that definition straight away rules out some of the great classic grade 1 scrambles of Britain, like Crib Goch, which is definitely a scramble rather than a walk.

Your quest for ‘absolutes’ here is futile. Really the main difference between a walk and a scramble is one of feel, and this is really more a matter of connoisseurship rather than anything else. It’s changed over time too. Witness Whymper’s use of the term in his classic book on climbing in the Alps. Most of those routes were a lot more than scrambles in our present-day sense.

I always thought Steve Ashton captured the definition well in Scrambles in Snowdonia:

"What criteria should be used to define a scramble? General agreement could be reached on the lower limit – that we must also expect to use our hands on the rock – but fixing the upper limit is always going to be controversial. My own interpretation, reflected in the cut- off point for this guide, is that the technical interest of the climbing (which in any case ought not to exceed Moderate or short passages of Difficult standard in the rock climbing classification) must be superseded by the wider interests of scenery, position and atmosphere. In other words, seeking out difficulty for its own sake, without regard to line or position on the mountain, is not scrambling but rock climbing."

Yes, it’s a good definition, though of course there are many summits in the world that cannot be reached except by at least some rock climbing. Even one or two in Britain.

...But it’s hard to give it an adjectival grade because it’s really a sort of boulder problem...

What grade does "Skye Scrambles" give this?

Adrian Tendall gives it Severe and, further left, 'The Mouth' 5b in  his excellent ridge traverse guide. Skye Scrambles gives it all Vdiff via the Mouth  - hard  - or easier further right! 

I think the freak out factor contributes to whether it's a scramble or not. 

Indeed.

I’ve mislaid both my Williams and Trendall guides (that’s the problem of having something like 4,500 books in one small cottage!), but Mike Lates’s SMC guide gives it 5b, and J.Wilson Parker’s 1983 ’Scrambles in Skye’ gives it RIII (which translates as Difficult, which is definitely too low).

Yes it's true that the grade of a scramble, and of any climb as well, can only be by consensus and not absolute. I still think it is useful to think that scrambling starts when you're using hands. Or at least when most people would use hands. Crib Goch did cross my mind, however you see plenty of novices standing lower and holding onto the crest with their hands.