UKH

Out of respect of nature and others; if you're really forced to mark holds as though you were indoors [stay there ], the least you could do is to clean after you.

It must be the hot weather but this summer seems to have taken this horrible practice to a new, low level...

Happy climbing,

Pino

I think the lack of rain probably hasn’t helped either! That said, from Burbage North earlier I could see some disgustingly over chalked holds over on Burbage West.. 

Or, better still, spend more time learning how to read moves better, so you don't need to use them in the first place?

I'm expecting a shit load of dislikes for this one

any other 'clean hands' around?... : )

Disliked

(I agree with you but didn't want you to feel disappointed)

I gave it a dislike. Only one. But in my mind. It was thousands.

Whilst I agree that ticking and whatever of is a bit of an eyesore, I don't think that "respect for nature" has anything to do with it. That's probably the least damaging thing people do.

Why would you mark holds indoors ?? If you can’t see bright blue, green (insert colour) I think you may have bigger problems ! 

would you care to tell us ... have you *never* been grateful for a tickmark ??

Thats not really the point, by that logic we should permanently mark all holds on all climbs?

Yes I have have felt relief at quickly being able to grab a ticked hold, but equally I have found the ticked holds don't work for me and made it harder.

Overall I would prefer it if there where no tick marks, If the hold I grabbed had not been tick then I would have had to dig deeper to find it or except I wasn't good enough for the onsight.

If you don't clean your tick marks the people who follow you have no choice but to use them and thats not fair, your are effecting someone else's climbing experience because you can't be bothered to clean up after yourself.

 I understand if the route is so overhanging its hard to get back to the rock to clean, and to be fair it will see so little rain that chalk from normal use will make the holds fairly visible anyway, but on vertical or just over hanging there is no reason not to. 

If you have something like black set on the same line as say "liquorice" (black/pink) then when you're above them if they are small footholds it's often impossible to tell them apart if the latter is orientated with most of the black upwards. Even black, purple and blue may appear the same if very small and covered in dust and chalk. Tick marks in those situations are quite useful.

I, like loads of men in the UK, am red and green colour blind. Add in chalk on holds and seeing which holds I'm 'allowed' to use indoor climbing is a complete pain. That might even be part of why I don't do it that much.

In practice, route finding can be completely obscure - esp on smaller holds and near your limits; regardless of tick marks, a lot of the detail becomes apparent with evidence of passage - wear n tear, trace of rubber ... whats a bit of chalk on top of this ??

In respect of route confusion ... this happens anyway for an onlooker who then sets out - I have many partners who will be grateful for the beta, but any 2 persons may not find it useful - ie. will use different holds

I don't use tick marks and most of my friend don't ether, but I do understand if you feel the need to, I guess for you when you are climbing at your limit you want the security of knowing where you are going or maybe you don't remember well for redpointing? And if you want to put tick marks in for your friends for beta that fine, but not everyone ones it wants that information, most climbers would get pee'd off if someone they didn't know stood at the bottom of a route and shouted beta at them all the way up. 

As for route's showing the holds with age, yes in some cases but vary rarely where I do most of my climbing, and its a strange argument because in that case you shouldn't need tick marks if the route is that easy to see,  if the rock is fresh and showing no marks, they yes use them but clean them off.

As for the route confusion I get not everyone will climb it the same way, but with no tick marks its my mistake to make, I would say that its big reason not to leave tick marks, as again a lot of people don't like beta being shouted to them while climbing.

I do understand it's hard to clean off all trace of passing using chalk and some times people forget with the excitement of finishing their project, but I don't get how you and others can tick mark all or parts of a route for your own needs and then make no effort to clean it a bit.

Isn't figuring out where the holds are, and then working out the right sequence - along with where the gear is - a huge part of a routes challenge and character?

If you want join the dots, paint by numbers climbing, then why not just stick to indoor walls?

now ,you're jumping to conclusions !!

perso, I do ocasionally place a tick mark - for my second's benefit; its a rare day that I project a route

Soemtimes I find tick marks annoying, and sometimes helpful. 

I'd be interested to know if the OP's complaint is triggered by chalk on trad or bolted routes ?? 

I do v little indoor climbing, and get v little satisfaction from it. As I remarked, for we who consult topos/guidebooks (and pick out starred routes !!) we're following oft repeated paths where wear and tear, rubber marks, and scars from gear placements all commonly give away the info.

Do you deliberately choose non-starred routes? that would help to escape the confusion. And of course you wouldn't do any bolted climbing. better still - refuse to repeat any known routes - get out there and put your own up !!

Exactly.

So how crap do you have to be at figuring moves out, that you need tick marks as well?

Sorry, although I agree with your general point I think this is wrong. There is a lot more difference between indoor and outdoor than just knowing where the holds are and these other aspects could easily supply enough attraction for many people to make outdoor climbing preferable even if they like to know where the holds are.

That's just what I was going to say.

There are certain routes out there  - with extremely small edges and ripples - essential to to make progress. Such subtlety may demand lengthy research (when further in a strenuous position). I suppose you could say that when any of us are climbing at our limits - we're all crap ??!

You should try this style of climbing sometime   it can be quite satisfying

Well yes, part of the skill of climbing is being able to read difficult sequences and something that is part of the grade.

Would you rather that tricky moves had the sequence painted on the rock and the problem reduced by a grade?

Ok maybe jumping to conclusions about you ticking every thing sorry, but there are people out there that do, and it seams to me that it is getting more popular.

Unlike some other posters on here, I don't have an issue with people ticking, I just wish they would where possible make the effort to remove them as best as they can I don't think that is a lot to ask.

Isn't being able to work moves out all part of the skillset climbers need to have - irrespective of grade?

Or should we dumb things down even more, and start marking exact gear placements too?

I always thought thinking and problem solving were all part of the nature of climbing

I'm not 'rathering' anything - perhaps a bit more accepting of the way things are

In the UK context I can imagine that over-usage creates certain frustrations. You would like it down here in SW France - where often you can have an entire sector to yourself - and choose starred routes which appear to have no holds - until you've cleaned away the vegetation … the odd tick mark can then be somewhat comforting

Of course, but whichever way you look at it, tick marks are just a way of dumbing a route down.

But if you do need to use tick marks as a crutch, then at least have the manners and courtesy to brush them off afterwards.

I live in Scotland. Outside of the central belt, more often than not a climber will get the crag to themselves.

No argument with that. Sometimes (many times now regrettably) I can only do a route if it has been dumbed down. Perhaps that is part of my motivation for doing new routes? I can dumb them down to my level without criticism?