UKH

Hi,

I'm going on a guided trip in the alps late june to climb a few 4000m/13000ft peaks and I’m believe I need some help selecting the last layer(s).

Currently I have:

• Baselayer: The North Face Warm (Not very warm)
• Midlayer: Patagonia R1 Hoody (Not very warm)
• Softshell: Arc'Teryx Gamma LT (No insulation)
• Hardshell: Arc'Teryx Alpha FL

As you can see, I might need some kind of insulation layer.

When hiking with a 30kg/66lbs backpack in these layers (minus hardshell) I rarely feel cold. Even in -2C/28F I hike with all zips down with no fleeche hat.

My options as I see it are:

• I can replace the R1 with a R3. That might give me the needed warmth.
• Another options is to add another lightweight, breatheable, midlayer between my R1 and Gamma softshell such as the Nano-Air or maybe a R3?
• I could also replace the Gamma softshell when it gets cold with one of these:
  • Arc’Teryx Proton LT
  • Arc’Teryx Atom LT
• I could get a puff jacket to throw over everything. This could be the Patagonia Nano Puff perhaps?

I can’t figure out which direction to go.

Any input is appreciated.

In reply to WaffleTechnician:

I'd start by going for walks with a 5-10kg (max)bag and see how that modifies your clothing. We all run at different temps.

In the alps, there will be times when you are a little cold, then melting etc.. Unless you want to spend all day stopping and changing clothing, you need to find your mid ground. Jackets with pit zips offer some extra flex. 

In reply to WaffleTechnician:

I'm sorry but clothing is really personal.  Apart from that I haven't got a clue what any of your current clothing is, was or looks like.  

In summer in the alps I've managed with a shirt of some sort, a fleecey and a light anorak and for back up a sleeveless down waistcote.  Is that of help?

In reply to WaffleTechnician:

No one needs an excuse to buy a nano air, they're one of the best bits of kit ever made!

(When do you like with 30kgs of kit?!?!)

In reply to WaffleTechnician:

A thin down or synthetic jacket is the way to go imo, like the cerium lt or atom lt since you seem to like arcteryx. I would take one of those and skip the R1, for me base layer + soft shell + hard shell (against wind or wet snow etc) is enough when moving even if it's well below 0 C. Then you have a thin puffy for eating lunch or when you get tired and cold at the end of the day.

In reply to jezb1:

I'm not a huge fan of mine. Showing a disappointing amount of wear after less than a year thanks to that fragile outer fabric. Only cost me about 70quid though and pretty much only getting used for casual wear.

In reply to nathan79:

Yeah I know what you mean. Mine gets worn almost daily for work and play, the fabric has bobbled a lot, but not wearing through or anything. Quite like the worn look!

I love it though! Warm for the weight and I've no idea how it breathes so well.

In reply to WaffleTechnician:

youtube.com/watch?v=-8dU6gXubPI&

https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/expert-advice/how-to-layer-clothing-for-each...

https://www.alpine-guides.com/climb/insider-knowlege-climb/alpine-climbing-... (arcteyrx oriented)

My own preferences (conditioned by US mountains like the Tetons, which are  subalpine compared to the bigger alpine peaks) are a bit different.

Baselayer(s).  I use two.  The bottom one is a sun protection layer like the Patagonia Sunshade hoodie.  http://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-sunshade-technical-hoody/52657.html . This seems to wick well under other garments and gives great sun protection by itself for hot approaches and mild conditions higher up.  It seems as if every guide in the Tetons wears one.

When it starts to cool off a little, I put on a Rab Vapourise Flex Jacket, which is light and has thin underarm stretch panels for slim fit and good venting.   I still consider this pair my base layer, but it's all I need for moderate temps at lower altitudes.  Unlike other baselayers, this one provides reasonable wind resistance.

Midlayer.  I like the Rab Paradox Pull-On, which is a very light Polartec Alpha piece that doesn't have to come off as much when you are working hard.

Shell.  I don't want to carry a softshell and a hardshell, so make do with just a hardshell.  I think it is hard to beat the Arcteryx Alpha FL.  (See the nearly ecstatic Outdoorgearlab review at https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/reviews/clothing-mens/hardshell-jacket/arcte.... )

Now that I am superannuated, I get cold really easily when I'm not moving, and also want some additional insulation in my pack in case things don't go as planned.  The Mountain Hardware Ghost Whisperer down jacket weighs 8 oz and takes up very little space in the pack.  It is amazingly warm for the weight.  I almost never put it on by itself because the material is so fragile; the hardshell goes over it almost all the time.  That being the case, the potentially worse performance of down vs. synthetics really isn't an issue. 

We don't have the kind of wet weather in most of the US that is prevalent in the UK, so this set-up works well for me into moderate winter conditions as well.

In reply to WaffleTechnician:

Why on earth are you carrying 30kg of kit around with you on hikes?

In reply to Toerag:

If he's going with a guide that'll soon get sorted!  I can just imagine the reaction if you rocked up on the first day with a guide in the alps & he caught sight of your 30kg pack!   

In reply to jezb1:

Agreed, they're awesome.  I run very hot, so the more breathable the better for me.  The Nano Air nails it,  it's as breathable as a tea bag and only slightly heavier, and it's implausibly warm when you're standing still.

To the OP: you might like to try the ridiculous-looking but highly effective Brynje mesh t-shirt:

https://www.nordiclife.co.uk/collections/mens-base-layers/products/brynje-s...

I've got one and it works very well indeed.  In winter, I wear that with a long sleeve Helly base layer over the top, then the nano Air, and a hardshell for backup.  The mesh stops the Helly getting wet and claggy, and even if your clothes get damp when you're exerting your skin stays warm and dry.  Top stuff.

 

 

In reply to Toerag:

Maybe training for the Alps. There's nothing like walking up hill with a heavy rucksack to get fit for alpine climbing.

 

In reply to WaffleTechnician:

The temperature ranges can be quite extreme in one day and also varies from one day to the next so as versatile a clothing system that works for you personally, and suits your budget, would be ideal. I'm sure your guide will give excellent advice.

    In a good forecast and a quick up and down hit to 4,000m peaks I usually wear a light coloured, lightweight long sleeved, quarter zip wicking layer. Then a lightweight softshell with full zip and hood. This can be enough but  I would usually have a lightweight synthetic ( primaloft ) layer to add over the top and probably a very light full zip hardshell ( including full zip trousers ) just in case in the rucksack or for cold morning starts if required.

  If I'm out for several days, for example based from a hut or bivvy, or the forecast is colder or for strong winds I would usually wear the primaloft layer and carry a heavier weight synthetic ( belay type ) jacket as well. 

 

Hope this helps

In reply to Thrudge:

Pretty warm in the standard flavour though, too warm for Scottish winter at times so probably not really a summer alpine piece. One of the many newer variants might fit the bill.

In reply to WaffleTechnician:

I'm not sure you do need anything more?

It's summer alpine 4000 bashing. 

A thin baselayer and a gilet / thin softshell is more than enough. I can't express how hot you're going to be, especially if moving at guide pace. If the weather is cold and wet you just go do something else. I'm not sure I'd even bother wearing or carrying the R1. 

You already have half the arcteryx catalogue in your sack though so I guess a cerium Lt couldn't hurt to put on outside a hut and feel super toasty?

In reply to summo:

Thanks for the reply!

I'll try to figure out my mid ground. As others suggest I might go with baselayer + softshell + hardshell and maybe the a lightweight insulated layer to throw on for cold moments.

In reply to Billhook:

Thanks By the looks of it I'll have to go lighter than expected.

In reply to jezb1:

Those nano air reviews I've read do praise it to the sky.

I went for a 70 mile winterhike and packed way too much crap. I thought you had to fill your backpack? I'm not doing that again.

Thanks!

In reply to Niblet:

I think I have a skewed feeling of the temperature in the alps.

Thanks for your reply I'll skip the R1 and take a thin down or synthetic jacket.

In reply to rgold:

Wow. Thanks for the reply! You gave me a lot to think about.

Especially reading those great layering articles. I believe I'll end up using this this setup https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/expert-advice/how-to-layer-clothing-for-each... which will result in me getting a thin down or synthetic jacket for cold times.

The Ghost Whisperer also sounds like a great piece of equipment. I bookmarked it

Summer Full-Day Activities

 (Three-layer system)

1. Base — For the same reasons as our half-day hike system, start with a wicking performance shirt of your choosing. We'll choose a light merino wool long-sleeve base layer with a zip neck.

1. Mid — For your mid-layer, add warmth with a mid-weight fleece such as the Patagonia R2 Jacket. If the temperatures are cooler, such as Spring or Fall, we'll swap out the fleece for the hoody version of a light insulated jacket such as the Patagonia Nano-Air Hoody.

 

1. Outer — Top it off with a shell that is appropriate for the conditions. If you plan on doing more aerobic activity in good weather, a water-resistant soft shell and/or ultralight rain jacket will do the trick. If there is a chance of significant rain (and there almost always is in the mountains), toss a hardshell or light rain jacket in your pack along with some rain pants.

In reply to Toerag:

I thought you had to fill your backpack? I went on a 70 mile winter hike with way too much crap  Won't make that mistake again. 

In reply to 99ster:

Haha. Yeah theres an equipment check so I won't be able to bring canned food or hardcover books.

In reply to Thrudge:

Whats ridiculous-looking about a brynje haha. I'll give that a look Thanks!

The insulating layer might be the nano air.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I thought you had to fill your backpack? I just wanted to get out and I brought way too much crap. I won't make that mistake again It was also decent training.

In reply to Mark Haward:

Yeah it'll get sorted out eventually during my gear check

So base layer + softshell and a hardshell and lightweight synthetic for rainy/cold times.

Thanks for your reply!

In reply to galpinos:

Which newer variants are you thinking of?

Thanks.

In reply to neuromancer:

It looks like I've thought of the alps as beeing cooler than they really are climbing.

I'll ditch the R1 and buy a insulating layer for throwing over everything in cold times. 

Thanks!

In reply to neuromancer:

Are you serious? At 4000m early in the morning with a bit of wind and sub zero temperatures this is going to be completely inadequate. 

In reply to Robert Durran:you're right there.  I'd expect temps to vary between blinkin' cold and very warm. 

What the op needs is a belay jacket

My nano air is well into its second season and is my most used jacket

 

In reply to wbo:

Yes, I would say, as a minimum, base layer, warm mid layer, soft shell/shell and a belay jacket. If, like me, you feel the cold, add another mid layer. Juggling those around should cope with most summer conditions.

 

In reply to Robert Durran:

 I was sweating through in a primino t-shirt, walking trousers and a Rab Boreas windshell on the last few easy 4000s I was up. 

I mean I guess I stuck on a thin alpha jacket when down at the café because the sun had gone behind the clouds but I didn't have much more room in my little Simond pack for anything more? Someone bought me a ghost whisperer so I guess I'd swap that out now.

Not to seem rude, but I suspect the OP isn't sitting on a belay ledge on the north face of the jorasses in winter as his first guided 4000er.

In reply to neuromancer:

If you are seriously suggesting that is all the OP carries, then, sorry, but you are being downright irresponsible. You would need to be assuming moving continuously in particularly benign conditions and you cannot guarantee that.

 

In reply to neuromancer:

Agree, Brits often wear far too much in the Alps.  If you are on a committing north face then fair enough.  But not on routes at PD / AD level.

 

In reply to Brass Nipples: Youre right, he probably won't be bivying on the Grand J for his 4000's.  But I suspect that if he gets up and leaves the hut at 5,30 or 6 on a windy morning he'll feel more than a bit fresh in a t shirt and windcheater. 

 

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm really not sure how I'm being irresponsible; especially as this entire thread is gilding the lilly: He's paying a guide. Who can offer him all the advice he might need, not to mention lend him a load of kit for free for the few climbs they do together.

I maintain that on these 4000s the level of commitment and difficulty is going to be so low that I'd struggle to advise even bothering to take a goretex jacket or trousers, let alone a complex breadth of expensive midlayers or duvets.

But you've climbed a lot longer than I have: I'm just aping my betters (mates that are guides, at that).

In reply to neuromancer:

By encouraging them to carry potentially dangerously inadequate clothing.

I agree. He should get advice from his guide in advance.

I've been hot in a base layer on a 4000m peak in summer, but I've also been in really biting cold and wind. And that's without the weather actually being bad. The difficulty and commitment is pretty irrelevant. Anyway a fleece or two needn't be expensive. I'm not suggesting anything complex or expensive.

 

In reply to Robert Durran:

If the weather window isn't there, go trail running or go and climb somewhere else where the weather is peachy. All of which will be taken into account by said guide, so the OP is not going to be climbing in bad weather.

Actually I'd imagine the difficulty and commitment are pretty relevant. If it's easy, you don't have to pitch any parts of it. Therefore you never stop, therefore you don't get cold and don't need three fleeces and a big belay jacket. If it isn't committing, then if the weather looks like it might change unexpectedly despite a guides best assessment, regular barometer watching and a good long-term forecast, you can stop, change your plans or get off the mountain.

That's about as relevant as you can possibly get. I don't know how more relevant you can get?

Anyway, that's my fill, I think you're just being argumentative out of boredom (or, well...).

Have fun climbing OP.

 

In reply to neuromancer:

Read what I wrote. I'm not talking about bad weather; I'm talking about the sort of weather it is normal and safe to climb in. The question of what one might carry in case you do get caught out for whatever reason is a separate discussion.

Almost everyone stops occasionally. Anyway, the clothing you suggest could be totally inadequate while moving, especially tired at altitude.

No I reacted out of alarm at your dangerous and ignorant advice.

 

In reply to WaffleTechnician:

You could make this more complicated but actually pretty much any fleece will do unless you are particularly brand obsessed 

couple of mates of mine happily went to 6000m in South America happily using Millets walking gear

In reply to WaffleTechnician:

You could make this more complicated but actually pretty much any fleece will do unless you are particularly brand obsessed 

couple of mates of mine happily went to 6000m in South America happily using Millets walking gear

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm solidly with you on this and don't think you're being argumentative at all.  My experience in the alps is limited and many years ago, but in our supposedly less serious ranges in the US, really nasty weather can blow in on a 4000 m peak in the afternoon after a perfectly clear morning.  That jolly scramble you signed up for suddenly has high winds, blowing snow, sleet, or hail, and the rock might be starting to ice.  Being up there with a base layer and a windshirt is a prescription for hypothermia, and once you get stupid cold all kinds of other bad things can happen. 

The first time I made the mistake of going lightly clad---base layer and shell---was in the US desert in the springtime, and I got just about as cold as I've ever been in the shade in temps just below 50 degrees F with very high winds on a 1000 foot climb.    That really taught me a lesson about the effect of high winds in relatively mild temperatures.

So now on a real mountain I'd never have less with me than an honest-to-god midlayer and a hard shell, and as I said a superlight down jacket like the MH Ghost Whisperer goes with me as well.  My midlayer, shell and jacket together weigh two pounds (same as a liter of water) and fill a fraction of my 23 L pack, so I can easily toss in the rab jacket/baselayer as well and climb in nothing more than the sunshade hoody if it is hot, and I'm not going to need a rescue when one of those bad afternoon storms blows in, as they inevitably do if you are out and about enough.

The idea that such kit is going to weigh you down or cause you to drown in sweat is silly, you just take the layers off.  What is hard to describe is the safety and joy of being relatively dry and warm rather than borderline hypothermic when the weather surprises you.

In reply to WaffleTechnician:

There's a miriad of versions now:

http://eu.patagonia.com/gb/en/shop/mens-active-jackets-vests

I have the original:

http://eu.patagonia.com/gb/en/product/mens-nano-air-hoody/84365.html

which is nearly too warm for winter. The light hoody might work in summer:

http://eu.patagonia.com/gb/en/product/mens-nano-air-light-hybrid-hoody/8441...

but no idea on the longevity of the waffle fabric. It's a pretty fragile jacket anyway (two holes in it on the first route I climbed).

There is also a lighter half zip without the waffle back but can't see that on the website now.

All might be a bit overkill and a synthetic overjacket might work better. The standard base layer, thin micro fleece, windproof, waterproof, insulating overjacket is hard to beat.