UKH

Help me out in my ignorance. Say you’re leaving a stance on a multi pitch route, leading the next bold pitch. Your mate, belaying, has two anchors. You will not get any gear in the next 5m or more. If you come off, your weight will come direct onto the belay in what I think would be a factor 2 fall. Does it improve the situation if you clip one of the belay anchors, essentially as your first runner, or does this make the situation worse?

I'm sure you'll get lots of answers to this, hopefully from climbers more knowledgeable than me, but in my opinion the short answer is yes. This is what I often do. However the anchor being used as both belay anchor and runner does need to be bombproof, and the further above the belayer it is, the more advantageous it becomes. If it's not bombproof you run the obvious risk of it ripping, leaving your belayer holding a factor two fall with one less anchor to hold them - ie in a worse situation for both of you than if you hadn't clipped it. If the anchor is not significantly above the belayer, even if it is bombproof, then the fall factor is not significantly reduced.

The best course of action is to place a totally independent runner soon after leaving the stance, but this is often not possible. Leaving a placement free for the first runner on the next pitch is not a good reason  for the leader of the pitch below to discard a good belay anchor that would make their stance more secure.

Martin 

Depends how good it is. Like most things trad it is not black and white and you should make your own judgement. The best advice is don't fall off before you've got your own decent runner in at least

These situations are often predictable, and one course of action is for you (or your partner) upon arriving at the belay to continue past the belay to place the first piece (which you will belay them through, as a redirect - so maybe it needs to be a mini-anchor or even full anchor), and then return to the belay. This will mean that even if it was 5 metres up, the climber placing the first piece is at the end of a pitch so won't hit the deck. This is not a solution to all scenarios of course - but it can be one of them.

I do it. The logic from many about this is that a belay anchor should really be bomber, but then I know this often isn't the case and with a nice tight rope from above the fall forces from a second are minimal.

On the other hand, I find it easier to control a fall that pulls you upward and you can try to reduce the loading on the gear by giving a soft catch.

The 'jesus piece'

If the anchor is really good, you'll have improved the situation

However if the anchor is poor or mediocre, you'll have made a bad situation worse and possibly kill both of you in the event of a fall...

Standard belay plates are designed such that the rope will slip at 2-3kN. That means they protect they belay from the bulk of any shock load, although with the downside that any belayer trying to hold a factor two fall without wearing gloves is absolutely guaranteed to burn their hands and will also invariably then drop the leader completely.

However, by clipping an anchor as a runner, it is no longer protected and can be exposed to higher forces, perhaps 5-8kN in the event of a fall. As such, any poor anchor will just rip, leaving you back in same situation as above, but only now relying on the remains of the belay to stop both of you plummeting to your deaths.

HTH

What the Ex-Engineer said. Also discussed at length by Will Gadd in his blog. 

http://willgadd.com/anchor-clipping/

http://willgadd.com/anchor-clipping-2/

But how often in a UK trad situation are you going to have a totally bomber anchor, then nothing for a long way afterwards?

One useful tip in this situation is for the belayer to lower a little way down the last pitch and to belay from lower down, effectively then using the belay anchors both as a belay and as a first and second runner some way up the newly lengthened pitch. This has two advantages. One is that it reduces the fall factor and consequent strain on the anchor, the other is that a fall will be very much easier to hold because the belayer won't get slammed into the anchor - just pulled up a little.

You’re leaving a stance on a multi pitch route, leading the next bold pitch. Your mate, belaying, has two anchors. You will not get any gear in the next 5m or more."

Exciting isn't it?

W

I believe it will help substantially.  Even if only because it improves the belayer's chance of holding the rope on a factor 2.  

you don't need to belay them 2nding via the redirect, just belay as normal after taking in the slack via the redirect.  The upper piece can be on the 'dead' side of the belay plate. Pull through slack after they arrive, or during if using a guide plate or bored

But the worst case scenario would be if you are pulled up past an anchor which then fails (nuts being pulled up and out) and you are both left hanging on a possibly dodgy runner. Or maybe not hanging.

But you could say the same about an entirely independent gear placement not far off the belay.

You just have to make sure the belay is solid and multidirectional, a good positive aspect of having cams in a belay maybe? although I'd rather a good thread or nut in a horizontal crack.

That's what I thought I was talking about.

Of course, but we are talking about a non-ideal world.

Holding an upward pull is often easier than holding a downward one so that counts for clipping part of the belay if it really is bomber (or all of it independently equalised if it's all smaller bits that are together good. Half ropes and slingdraws are ideal for making this effortless). If the belay is shit find and make a better one.

For maximum benefit it's worth considering extending/moving the belay down to the next suitable foot-ledge/stance, rather than settling for the most obvious stance but with no runners above it. That often opens up extra gear placements so the belayer can be better secured, held out of the firing line (they're no good to you if you knock em out on the way past or break their arm) and of course the original belay placements are now further away from the belay (more rope out, lower fall factor) and available for the leader to use before hitting the bold bit.

Also consider running the pitches together to make use of gear placed already to protect against catastrophe though this approach solves some problems it can bring additional hazards (rope stretch/slack and poor communications) which often outweigh the benefits. Never underestimate how far you'll go even from level with the gear when there's 30 odd meters of rope out below you!

Basically: Yes but consider your options very carefully. If you're faced with this question there's usually a better solution than patching up poor choices to make them a little better.

jk

Exactly the circumstances of leaving the belay on pitch 3 of the Ocean, Lundy. And the belay (where the buoy is) isn't that good. 

I thought we were talking about clipping part of the belay.

My thoughts usually are that in this situation it makes most sense to clip the highest piece in the belay. if the gear is good, then great and this may save a factor 2 fall. If the gear is poor, then provided the other pieces in the belay are decent, might as well clip it anyway as it may save a factor 2 fall, and if it did rip, the bit wasn't really adding much to the belay anyway, so nothing lost. 

I think the mantra should be do whatever possible to reduce the chance of a factor 2 fall onto the belay. Another option is simply to not fall off (if fairly easy), or if hard climbing straight above the belay then the option John Arran mentions could be well worth considering. 

It's definitely not uncommon. Plenty routes with not a lot of gear, but what gear there is is pretty good.

In a similar vein to the lower off the top runner and belay lower down idea suggested above, a couple of years ago I climbed a route where the first pitch ended on a poor sloping ledge with only a suspect peg and a sling over a wide shallow block. The sling would have been ok for a downward pull (if the second had fallen off) but in a big leader fall where the belayer was pulled upwards the sling could have lifted off. There was also no visible gear for quite a way on the next pitch.

My solution was to bring the second up as far as the last runner on the pitch which was good and get them to take a hanging stance there, backing up the existing runner with another piece (one they'd stripped from the pitch or that I dropped down the rope to them - can't remember which now).

I then led the next pitch using the crap peg and sling as my first runners. With a downward force from a leader fall the sling should have been ok. As it turned out the next runner was miles away though fortunately after the first few moves the climbing was easy.

Yes, I've done that on a couple of routes when we weren't swapping leads and there wasn't much of a stance.

This sounds like a good idea and suggests that the guidebook belay is in the wrong place.

I read that and thought, "Aha! I remember leading the third pitch of Diagonal (HVS 5a)"

T.

If I repeated the route I'd take the hanging stance again but when the description was written the peg may have been a bit more trustworthy!

My mechanics is non-existent so following are questions rather than suggestions.

How about reducing friction of a plate (as in abbing) ie extra krab through just bight of rope going through plate? Remove krab once good runner placed. Also possibly reduce friction with hand position (in other forums it has been pointed out that this is very difficult). 

Use a waist belay if proficient. It may be easier to control friction (arguable) which is possibly lower than using a plate anyway.

In either case increased rope burn risk if no gloves.

If the stopping power of the plate is reduced then the strain on the anchor, even if used as first runner, should be reduced? 

Use a series of knots, in say a sling or one of two half ropes, arranged so that force of fall on runner and/or belay comes on them first to absorb energy.

To be honest I think the main message is that if you're ever doing a route with really, really dodgy belays and poor gear, take belay gloves.

Body belays work great on steep snow slopes but on rock, the belay would have to be utterly dreadful to the point of being almost non-existent before I'd consider using one. Also, as with a belay plate, gloves are pretty much essential to have any realistic chance of holding a factor two fall without rope burns.

A factor 2 onto a waist belay? Rather you than me.

Thanks. I agree totally with the gloves comment. However I imagine the average UK rock climber only carries them if they actually know they will be needed ie very rarely.

For a long time I used, and held leader, falls with a waist belay and would have been confident of holding anything given a good stance. I always wore gloves when seconding. In fact I usually just took one (cotton mitt with extra division at index finger) which could be worn on  whichever hand was used for braking.  I do use a plate nowadays! 

The bit you are missing is that it is an either/or situation. You have to decide whether you are trying to protect the belay itself or the belayer and/or the faller. By improving one situation you worsen the other and vice-versa.

Much harder than if there is a runner. However I've done it and plenty of pre 70s climbers will also have. In a thread some time ago Noyce's 180 foot fall in the Lakes  was briefly discussed (held by Menlove Edwards, hemp rope, hands badly burnt). (Topic: Knots in Slings.  ,,..."with a reasonably dynamic belay obviously worked fine.") Certainly not advocating it generally however! 

My questions concerned whether it would be worth using a method with far less breaking power to reduce the shock throughout the system eg krab in bight below plate. The leader would go a long way of course. 

Sorry. Can't get my head round this one. Surely one needs to protect the belay if there is any doubt about its strength in a given situation. If the belay fails its disaster for the faller and belayer anyway. The faller should be OK even if the fall is long, provided they don't hit something.

Only if the belay really is that bad; otherwise I'm sure both leader and belayer would prefer using a belay device. But if we're talking rock routes, I think there will nearly always be a better option, such as belaying somewhere else.

Precisely, you have to decide whether to protect the belay or increase the risk of injury to the belayer and faller.

Eh? One of those things is desirable and the other isn't, so a very easy choice!

Ah yeah true

If there is any doubt about the anchors holding, even if they are not"that bad" surely its worth considering doing whatever is necessary to reduce the risk. Among thousands of climbs there are obviously some necessitating slightly dubious belays.....Skeleton Ridge (chalk), and some high mountain routes spring to mind.

However I do take your point. I was just interested in people's opinions on a couple of possiblities, including using a krab to reduce friction on a plate for a very dynamic belay, and trying not to advocate anything myself.

True! The problem with posting after midnight! I guess people will understand though

But that wasn´t what the OP asked, they didn´t specify any particular scenario (such as a poor belay) but wanted to know if clipping part of the anchor makes the situation better or worse and as others have pointed out "it depends". Faced with a 10m FF2 I could never recommend reducing the braking force of the belay device, the chances of holding it without injury are already low enough!

In my very, very limited experience of trying to hold factor 2 falls on modern 8.5mm ropes using ATC is that I really, really don't want to reduce the friction at all.  It would almost certainly reduce what is already a significantly dynamic belay (my movement plus rope slip) to not being able to hold it at all.  To me as flesh and bone the difference would be massive, to the belay anchor trivial.

and GrahamD

You're absolutely right on both points. As often occurs though the topic does drift as a thread progresses (I'm guilty in this instance). There have been many similar posts but I often learn something new from them.

I was genuinely interested in any opinions of effectiveness of plate vs reduced friction on plate vs waist belay vs possible variation in hand braking force (of course many plates have 2 friction options and probably one should stop there).  

I usually clip.  Unless the belay is shit, in which case I don't fall off...

Probably one of the best threads in a while here. We were debating this very topic last season. On point, I've often used a high piece on the belay as a first runner but got the belayer to remove it as soon as I have a second piece in. Some really good advice and links here.

To reduce rope drag? (can't think of another reason)