UKH

Do you think that climbing in general has become too commercialised and/or competition based as appose to the traditional self-fulfillment, individual challenge which climbing once was?
Or do you see it as a step forwards in climbing? And the fact that both are very possible only emphasises how great climbing has become?

In reply to ClaireAS:

As Prince said: "Sign o' the Times"

In reply to ClaireAS:

Surely you do it at whatever level you want ? Plenty of people still happily just go scrambling about in walking boots and a Peter Storm anorak.

In reply to ClaireAS:

I'd be interested to know how you think anyone could argue that the commercialisation of climbing is a progressive step.

In reply to ClaireAS: Might I ask why you're asking this question, your first post as a newly registered user?

It'd be polite to mention if there was an underlying reason, some form of schoolwork or dissertation or similar. It hopefully wouldn't change what was said, but declaration would be better than hiding it.

T.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

It creates employment. Is that progressive? I think so.

I think there is little doubt that there has been an increase in those interested in climbing, scrambling, hill walking and mountaineering.

There are more climbing walls and more instructors than there has ever been.

More gear is sold. Better gear is made. That means more jobs, unless you are talking production with with some exceptions, but that does mean job creation in Asia.

At UKC/UKH/Rockfax there are seven full timers, over ten full time jobs if you count some Rockfax authors.

It is easy if you are a climber to escape commercialism. I do it often.

Mick

In reply to Pursued by a bear: Sorry, I probably should have mentioned why I'm asking the question.
As part of my university degree, I have to undergo some research within the climbing industry. I have been climbing a few times where there were a variety of climbers: some were worlds champions who were training for competitions and others who clearly did it for fun.
I am interested mainly in what those who do it for fun think of the commercialisation and how it may be effecting them.

In reply to ClaireAS:

Good job that outdoor clothing hasn't jumped on the bandwagon of commercialisation, because that would never happen.

In reply to ClaireAS: Ta for correcting the omission, much obliged.

I think the trickle down effect is as evident in climbing through the improvement in gear, walls and for those interested diet and training as in many other arenas; football say. Not every Sunday league player will feel the full benefit from those new boots but they may feel some.

T.

In reply to ClaireAS:

... your implication being that world champions don't climb for fun. It may be that some top performers are able to gain a modest living from the sport but I think dismissing them as being more interested in competition or commercial success than climbing for the sheer love of it may be grossly unfair in many cases.

On the other hand there are thousands of 'ordinary' climbers who take part in local competitions each winter with little expectation of any return, beyond the joy of taking part.

Then there's more general commercial involvement, arguably necessary for us to have the great equipment and clothing we enjoy today - and which definitely makes the climbing itself more pleasurable, especially in terms of lightweight hardware and dedicated specialist clothing.

The commercial and non-commercial aspects of climbing are so closely entwined I think any attempt to separate them into two clear camps is doomed to failure.

In reply to ClaireAS: A bit difficult for me to answer, as when I started climbing 10 years ago, it was already 'commercialised'. The big change I've seen in those 10 years is the growth of bouldering, and indoor bouldering. There are loads of people in Sheffield who go to the indoor bouldering wall who aren't rock climbers. They've never climbed a rock in their lives, and don't even know what a top-out looks like, but they presumably spend a fair bit of money on climbing related stuff, so the market has expanded there. In actual bouldering too, there's a whole load of fashion and merchandise that gets sold on the back of it. I don't know whether people actually make money out of knitting dreadlocks, or whether students do it themselves, but...

Personally, I find it easy to be a passionate climber, but not to watch any DVDs, or buy any magazines, or be otherwise in the firing line of the climbing industry's marketing machine. (I do spend too much time on here though). I have no idea who's climbed the latest 9b sport route (does such a thing exist? I never read those articles on here) and therefore who sponsors them. I don't even know what brand most of my gear is, except the cams (it's not all swag btw). As for competitions, they're just not part of my awareness.

Whilst a lot of the commercial side of climbing pretty much passes me by, the crags are busy and I imagine that the sense of adventure has pretty much evaporated from what it was a few decades back. When I climb a low E-grade route on grit, I know that I'm probably the 50th person to climb it that week. The gear slots are obvious, the holds are chalked and I look up beta on the database here. Even when I do some multi-pitch traverse on a loose sea-cliff, the sense of adventure must be massively diminished in comparison to what it must have been in say the 70s. I'm used to climbing well described, relatively accurately graded, clean, and usually chalked rock, safe in the knowledge that thousands of others have passed that way before and some of them were probably weaker and more scared than me. This is the effect that commercialisation has had on climbing for me, and I would loved to have known it differently. (That said, while I love climbing in wild places, I don't seek out adventure in terms of new routing).

But I guess that when I'm ready to give up climbing, I'll look back to these days when it was edgy and adventurous, compared to the bland, artificial and commercial climbing of the future.

In reply to ClaireAS:

Same as it ever was.....below by Tom Patey

Colin Wells said about Tom

"He was a highly talented comic writer and satirist. It is a measure of the affection and respect with which Patey was generally held that he was able to identify with climbing's counter-culture through his comic writing, while managing to avoid alienating the very Establishment figures he was satirising."

Onward, Christian Bonington!

Onward, Christian Bonington, of the A.C.G.
Write another page of Alpine history
He has climbed the Eiegerwand, he has climbed the Dru--
For a mere ten thousand francs, he will climb with you:
Onward, Christian Bonington, of the A.C.G.
If you name the mountain, he will name the fee.

Like a mighty army, faithfully we plod
Treading in the footsteps Bonington has trod
From the Diretissima loud Hosannas! ring--
Grave, where is they victory, 0 death, where is thy sting?
Onward, Christian Bonington, joyfully we sing,
Down with McNaught-Davis, Bonington for King.

Live transmission will commence shortly after ten
From the Kleine Scheiegg and the Alpi-Glen.
Do not miss the spectacle, you can watch for free:
Bonnington is on the wall, Tune in on B.B.C.
Onward, Christian Bonington, of the B.B.C
Fighting for survival, and a token fee.

When they climbed the Eigerwand, those two gallant men
They received a message (sent) from Number Ten:
Well done chaps, MacMillan said, Victory was your due;
Well done, Christian Bonington, the Fuhrer's proud of you
Onward, Christian Bonington, hallowed be thy name,
Digging out a belay in the halls of fame.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

Thanks, Mick. It wasn't that I couldn't try to get an argument together myself, more that I wasn't competent to do it. Whether, overall, it's convincing or not is another matter ...

In reply to ClaireAS: I'm currently writing a dissertation on the commercialisation of climbing and how it affects the experiences of the participant base. From my research so far, most people's opinions are that it is inevitable and will mainly benefit the sport. Imagine athletes having the funding to train like Olympians and the benefits of having a support team behind them. I think the standard of the sport is going to drastically increase in the next decade and from that point of view, I can't see any downsides that outweigh the benefits.

In reply to NJBrown:

The 'downside' usually quoted is the increased pressure on limited natural resources as climbing becomes more popular, particularly accessible crags which are showing many signs of wear. While a valid point and a genuine concern, I always think this is quite a selfish argument, implying as it does that people who already enjoy climbing somehow have more right to visit these crags than those who may not yet have discovered the sport.
The most obvious commercial impact in that respect is that of professional instructors, particularly of larger experiential groups leading have-a-go climbing and abseiling activities. Except at a very small number of venues these groups seem to have found a way to successfully coexist with ordinary recreational climbers.

In reply to john arran:
Arguably the other downside is that it turns what 'ought' to be a very pure experience where if you can't do something you try to understand the rock and try to understand yourself in order to do it better to something where if you can't do something you wonder whether shaving 2.5g off the weight of your rack by using titanium krabs or spending a king's ransom on new shoes with some sort of molybdenum based grip technology would help...

But if that is a problem for you then the answer is probably to use the Tommy Cooper solution ie "don't do it then" rather than trying to blame "Black Diamond Sponsored Athletes" for forcing it on you.

In reply to Ramblin dave:
shaving 2.5g off the weight of your rack by using titanium krabs or spending a king's ransom on new shoes with some sort of molybdenum based grip technology would help...

Shiny new Krabs, where can I get some

In reply to NJBrown:

Really? Depending on the definition or judgement of 'outweigh' you might be right, but I think it would be good to acknowledge the downsides. The increasing commercialisation is part of the increasing participation, regulation and 'management' of climbing. Of course that has benefits, like new gear etc as above, and jobs for some.

But such imposed structures and regulations filter down to many others who may not want to do courses, be in comps, go on guided trips, climb indoors or whatever. But they end up being affected anyway - told they're negligent for not going with a guide, or for not wearing a helmet, or carrying a PLB, or find it hard to get, or claim, insurance if they don't do those things. It's already happening. Probably more noticeable in mountaineering, but it will come to rockclimbing too. Some people think that climbing indoors is fun, but that climbing outdoors is dangerous. It's laughable ... in the beginning.

It's fine for people to do what they want, and get what they need. But at what point does it unfairly impinge on the enjoyment and wellbeing of others?

In reply to john arran:

I suppose a good example of that this year John was the Foredale situation.

Of course we were warned:

Behave or Be Banned: Foredale Quarry
by Guy Keating BMC Jun/2008
This news story has been read 26,318 times

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=44969

But we didn't listen

Foredale Access Problems
by Dave Musgrove and Alan James May/2011
This news story has been read 5,616 times

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=62335

Climbing is banned there now, despite the efforts of the BMC.

A combination of bad bahaviour from existing climbers, the areas popularity and instructed groups.

M