UKH

i see from yahoo uk,s home page an avalanche warning has been issued in the lakes esp helvelyn and it is a rare event, don,t they realise this will start the rush

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

In reply to jas wood: Yeh, probably especially as it is the weekend. You know what will be the news story tomorrow. "Climbers caught in Avalanche on Helvellyn" or "Climbers ignore Avalanche warnings!"

We'll see.

In reply to DaveWarb: It was pissing down at 3000 feet at 6 pm ,was freezing earlier.Rather windy

In reply to jas wood:
It was on the local TV news as well apparently. No idea where it came from, maybe someone read the rather OTT warning on the Lakes Weatherline and got over-excited.

In reply to jas wood:

Comments were made by a member of Penrith Mountain Rescue on BBC Look North. Sounded like there was a lot of fresh snow on top of an icy base. Also sounded like the conditions were making navigation tricky. He was not saying don't go, just discouraged inexperienced or those wanting to gain experience and to say take care to those that do venture up.

Also comments made on the met office website under mountain weather section gave some indication of conditions...

In reply to jas wood: On Thursday Helvellyn was pretty bare except for the cornice which was consolidated, the turf was excellent and it stayed at around 0, -2 DEG all day. That evening it dumped down about 6 - 8 inches of show and warmed up. I'd imagine the cornice would have needed care, but you could have dug down to the good snow. We up to Bowfell, the snow was hideous powder with large drifts and the turf had warmed up - not a good combination! By 4.00pm it was raining hard. I would imagine that if the snow stays and it it cools down it will be good. Dave S

In reply to DPH:

It was on 5 Live this morning. They gave the impression that it was like some South American peak after a snow storm, with overhanging cornices ready to collapse, worst they'd seen in years etc., and defo gave the impression that people where being warned not to go. Actually made me jealous that I'm stuck here in Wigan!

Fingers crossed - forecast doesn't look to bad for forming decent conditions.

Mick

In reply to mick taylor:

Red rag to a bull!

In reply to jas wood: pah the nanny state at its worst, I'm off up there tomorrow if there's any snow left.

In reply to ICE:
Sane here - the hesitation isn't due to the risk of avalanche, it's due to the risk of getting up at 5am, driving for 2 hours and walking for another hour or two, to find that there's not enough snow left for climbing on.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
or even "same here". Most people at work would say that getting up earlier at the weekend than during the week is definitely not sane.

In reply to jas wood:

I remember Alan Hinkes talking about one of his friends, an experienced mountaineer, getting killed in an avalanche on the side of St Sunday Crag. I think it was the zig zag path that approaches Pinnacle Ridge.

I'm not saying you shouldn't go, but the lakes isn't danger free, and thinkiing you're experienced isn't in itself going to keep you alive.

Still, thats half the fun isn't it.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

http://www.lake-district.gov.uk/weatherline/index.htm

Forecast for today. It's wet and windy at present, and there's virtually no snow on Skiddaw, can't see Helvellyn range from where I am.

Mrs Ridge was speaking on the phone to her mum, who was adamant the news said we've had volcanoes up here....

In reply to Ridge:
What's the temperature like? ie will it be raining or snowing on the hills? I'm surprised it how mild it is over here in York, just walked to the shops in a T shirt.

In reply to Simon Caldwell: 9c on the coast, very strong/gale force wind. The western fells have been completely covered in cloud all day despite frequent sunny spells on the coast. Would imagine the snow will be sodden,melting rapidly although a freeze tonight should improve the conditions.

Iain

In reply to jas wood:

Dont get me wrong but avalanche conditions have always existed in the Lake District at some point every winter. People have been killed and injured in the past and will continue too its not a new event. I'm taking the way that they are reporting the event as RARE because avalanche danger is certainly not. I've come across the avalanche debris on several occasions on the Helvellyn range in recent years. They have never reported it like this before. The most I've ever seen is on the weatherline webpage or phone message saying "caution is required as Avalanche have been taking place on the east/north faces" etc

So anyone just how bad are the conditions up there???

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

As Iain said, vey mild and windy on the coast, which might stop it freezing tonight. Certainly raining rather than sleet/snow at the moment.

In reply to Ridge:

Webcams (unfortunately nothing directed at Helvellyn):

http://www.conistonweb.co.uk/webcam.html

DJ

In reply to Deejay: Trouble is, that link's showing Thurs Dec 27th.

In reply to Deejay:

Try the Raise ski-tow webcam which is just north of Helvellyn - they are currently skiing there now. This is a good indicator for general conditions in the area. Significantly lower than Helvellyn though.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/raise_up_dated_pics/

In reply to Andy Chadwick:
Current temperature +4 doesn't sound too good. It's not that much lower than Helvellyn is it?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


I think the cam is at 2500ft.

In reply to Anonymous:

I was 100 metres away from an avalanche in Nethermost Cove two years ago.
Not big, but enough to knock you off your feet if you were in it's way.
The resulting slip/fall could of been serious, down on to the rocks below.

In reply to jas wood:

Slightly excessive coverage.

In reply to Burns:

What are you saying?

Is this about job security, over hype, news for nothing and creditability?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
I find that that on that webcam the temperature is always way above what it is.

In reply to Anonymous:
"So anyone just how bad are the conditions up there???"
I can't say what it was like on Helvellyn, but I was up on Bowfell today - hardly anyone out. The snow was thawing rapidly, all three inches of it, very wet and slippy stuff. There was ice on the summit rocks of Bowfell (2960 feet), but the snow was thawing there too. Bowfell Buttress looked black, with snow on the ledges. The western slopes of Helvellyn had snow on down to about 1800 feet.
There was a bit of a gale, but the weather wasn't as bad as the BBC hype on "5 Live", which gave the message to "...keep of the mountains", all mountains, not just Helvellyn. They seemed to justify this on the back of a woman missing in the hills above Crianlarich, some climbers being rescued yesterday on Ben Nevis, the Lakes National Park Rangers on Helvellyn, and, wait for it, a boat whose cargo had shifted somewhere off the Scottish coast.
My opinion of the weather was that it was a typical winters day.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

No, not at all. Its about perspective. I think Helvelyn is far from unique given recent conditions, yet it would seem ridiculous to post a SAIS report for the "Norries" and call it news.

Who exactly was this piece aimed at?

In reply to Burns:

You be the judge.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Oh for goodness sake.

In reply to Burns:

That's what I thought when you asked me.

In reply to Removed User: I would agree the report about Helvellyn was ridiculously silly,if the the wardens want to be taken seriously ,or whoever issued it, they need to have a bit more experience before they make such dramatic and silly statements ,there was as much chance of an avalanche on Helvellyn as there was on Princes St.
My young son and I had a very nice walk up there today ,although it was breezy.
In my past life I issued the odd avalanche warning for Helvellyn but only in quite severe snow conditions ,not the fairly minor amount recently.
I m my experience the wardens are not mountaineers in general.

In reply to Gael Force:

and it has been picked up by websites all over the world.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Then why stop with this item? Why just Helvelyn? This seems like another likely "news" candidate: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=278804

Maybe you should clarify why you thought it was an important item?

In reply to jas wood:

seems crazy to me.

where was the snow today to justify an avalanche warning.

see www.lakelandcam.co.uk

Hearing the news this morning I thought I had missed read the weather charts over the last few days and/or the locals were keeping a big secret from us regarding routes in nick.

In reply to james wood:


Just hearing that the body of a 60 year old walker has been recovered off Skiddaw.
I'm guessing heart attack as Skiddaw is not exactly precipitous ?

In reply to Burns:


Im not being funny, but who gives a shit? Mick Ryan frequently gets asked: "Is this really news?" It's becoming monotonous. Give it up.

In reply to Jonno:

it certainly tests the heart if you keep on at it

Patchy snow left on the Pennines visible E of Penrith

The Wardens might not be mountainers all but the fell top assessors are generally experienced and capable and when I've spoken to them seem to climb there on occasion


I suspect the conditions have been treacherous underfoot as normal paths during recent winters have had loose powder snow over glazed ice and so movement is tricky with or without crampons -

safer off the paths and on the veggie last 2 winters

In reply to jas wood:
the point i was trying to make was is that i don,t think plastering it on the net and definately the tele was a good idea as this in my opinion would encourage the inexperienced to go up, when they probably weren,t aware that there was snow up there in the first place. I think warnings at the main car parks or approaches would have been a wiser choice.

was it that bad then ?

ja

In reply to Neil Anderson:

The snow was on Helvellyn.

http://www.lake-district.gov.uk/weatherline/summit_showing_the_cornice.jpg

The headwall above Red Tarn is a very popular snow plod and with a metre or more of wet snow on top on a frozen base there would would definitely have been a significant avalanche risk. Fully justified in mentioning on the Lake District Weatherline, but probably not on national telly.

In reply to Removed User:

I agree, I reckon it's about 2C too high. Best temp estimate for Helvellyn is to find Shap on the met office web site then subtract 4C.

So... has anybody been out and done anything yet or has it all melted?? or is it just to early in the day?

paul- stuck at work on a nice sunny day

In reply to tall paul:

Avalanches on helvellyn do happen, I know from first hand experience.

2 or 3 years ago I took my usual solo trip up there, climbed the gullies, v corner, viking buttress. On one of the descents from Swirrel I was crossing a snow field about the size of a football pitch, about ankle depth. Just as I was thinking this is a bit creaky, better be careful, the whole thing detatched and took me off my feet for a short ride. It wasnt deep enogh to bury me or take me all the way to the tarn but still.

Small shallow slopes can slide and take you with them. With the current weather, I think the warnings are prudent. Remember, the fell assessor has some duty of care that comes with the post. I would not like to be him if he did not post the warning and a party were injured/killed in a slide.

From a private email to me:

"The avalanche warning was put out by Craig Palmer, one of the national park wardens who spend the winter going to the top of Helly to update the weatherline. He's ex Marine and an experienced climber and MR member.

It's right that the weatherline will sometimes refer to an avalanche risk - but this time it wasn't just put on the weatherline website etc, it was emailed to the press.

It is highly unusual for that to happen and it was treated it accordingly. A similar warning was made by the other assessor, Jon Bennett, when he went up the following day - he saw people sliding about on top without crampons so someone wasn't listening!!

In reply to Jonno:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7173197.stm

The BBC strike again:

"He was found in the remote Bakestall area, raising the possibility that he had become lost or was trying to find shelter in bad weather."

Or alternatively he was walking up or down a path used by thousands of people each year on their way up or down Skiddaw....

In reply to Ridge:

Both are correct are they not? The BBC Cumbria report and you.

In reply to tall paul: been out today although i did not take any climbing gear i should have, the conditions were favorable for climbing with quite a few teams out doing V Grove and gully two and one. We walked up Swirel edge with rock solid turf and plenty of hoar on the rocks, we just need one nights freeze then conditions should be excellent.

One the way down we went via striding edge the snow there was soft but still plenty of hoar on the rocks, the summit was rock solid plenty of ice up there. We did not see any exit points from the cornice even though there were people climbing yesterday, perhaps they jumped over it

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

I'd say not. Bakestall isn't remote, it's a popular route up and down. Quite how finding a body there implies the person was 'lost' or 'looking for shelter' escapes me. It could also 'raise the possibilty' that he was captured by Space Aliens and beamed back down to that location.

It's just shoddy journalism. A body is found, let's make it sound even more exciting by 'raising the possibilty' of him staggering about in a white-out, desperately seeking shelter.

In reply to Ridge:



Sorry Ridge. It is your reading of the media there that is shoddy. They made no mention of 'staggering about on a white out" or "desperately seeking shelter"

It states quite clearly that his body was found on Skiddaw in the Bakestall area.

There has been bad weather recently, it is relatively remote. The poor man probably died of a heart attack or even possibly hypothermia.

Is is this paragraph that raises your hackles?

"He was found in the remote Bakestall area, raising the possibility that he had become lost or was trying to find shelter in bad weather."

Get over it dude, that is well down the scale of media misrepresentation of mountain sports.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

"He was found in the remote Bakestall area, raising the possibility that he had become lost or was trying to find shelter in bad weather."


Mick, it's crap reporting. Period.

Firstly Bakestall is certainly not remote. Then "raising the possibilty" is not reporting. It's supposition & therefore far removed from actual reporting.

The BBC is not what it used to be.

In reply to Franklin the pedantic cat:



Aaaah I see. The anti-BBC rhetoric. Try being exposed to the American media on a daily basis - then you would have something to complain about.

That report is 'fair and balanced' with some speculation or comment that is standard these days.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Please don't speculate about the cause of his death, even the BBC stated "A post-mortem examination to establish the cause of Mr Sinfield's death is due to be held on Monday or Tuesday". There is enough ill-informed comments on other threads in the Winter Climbing forum.

In reply to Removed User:
did you see the fracture line all along the cornice above the snow bay?

I didn't think conditions were at all favourable for climbing and neither dit at least 4 other climbers I met doing the edges instead, nor a couple of other experienced local climbers

It was shitty for climbing but people still couldn't refrain from floundering around

I did traverse some distance on to the face to take a look and it was very deep powder snow over frosted rocks

I was able to find unfrozen turf by excavating and the cornice above was very unstable so I walked round it



Splendid day on the Edges though

In reply to jas wood: do you recon the wide spread reporting of the risk is as a result of the increasing populataty of the britsh hills because of verious recent mountain programs on the bbc..

In reply to jas wood: Interesting as i went climbing that day on Helvellyn, snow was well packed & the ice was good, the one advantage was that the strange warning kept most peolple off the hill, I only saw about 10 people that day, number 1 gully was excellent. More terror reports needed to keep the hills clear of folk maybe?

In reply to jas wood:
There are hurricane force winds forecast for the Lakes tomorrow. Do you know if the rangers will be issuing another press release? If they don't, I guess I'll have to assume it's safe and go for a stroll up Helvellyn.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

How about drawing a line under this.

The fact is that the rangers on Lake District Weatherline do a brilliant job of describing conditions on England's most reliable winter mountain. Infinitely more useful than idle speculations from Joe Blogg's kitchen window in Ambleside.

In reply to Andy Chadwick:
They do a good job, but risk undermining the credibility of their reports when they resort to exaggeration. I stopped taking any notice of the last guy when he consistently made conditions out to be way harsher than they actually were. I'm suspending judgement of the new bloke until I actually get out and compare reality with his description of it.

In reply to Simon Caldwell: I'm thinking of going on friday. Any predictions for conditions on striding edge? axe and crampons needed?

Axe and crampons needed. Was out today. Lots of snow.
Cheers
Trull

In reply to Trull: cheers, its not likely to thaw considerably by then i take it?

In another thread, Mark Stevenson said:


(I don't think the other thread is an appropriate place to discuss this so I'm doing it here).

You could equally argue that since last week there was a press release about an apparent avalanche risk, but the other day there was no such press release about high winds, people could draw the assumption that they were much safer in the winds than last week's snow.

Yet the opposite is true. The avalanche risk was localised, pretty much to Helvellyn, and mainly to the winter climbs and (to a lesser extent) the edges. The danger posed by the storm/hurricane force winds existed anyway exposed to those winds.

If you start over estimating the risks, then you need to keep doing so or you risk making people think the risks are lower than they were.

Also, if you exaggerate things, and people go out anyway and find things aren't as bad as you said, then they'll ignore your next warning, which may well be a real one. Crying wolf and all that.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Patterdale MRT were interviewed on the local radio. Sounds like he had stopped to adjust his crampons when the accident occured.

BBC reporting another fatality on Helvellyn

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7179946.stm

QUOTE: A climber was killed when he fell almost 1,000ft (300m) on one of the Lake District's highest mountains.
Michael Hollinshead, 62, from Egerton in Bolton, sustained multiple injuries when he was blown off a ridge on Helvellyn in high winds.

Weather conditions meant a helicopter could not land and he had to be stretchered off the fell by the Patterdale Mountain Rescue team.

He was then flown to Furness General Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

Police said the coroner had been informed.

I hate it when people are wise after the event. a avalanche warning would stop me goining up helvellyn, nor would high winds. to imply that he did something wrong is wrong i think. i think many people would have done the same and it is just terrible accident.

In reply to Franco cookson: *wouldn't*

Well I said I'd suspend judgement until I'd been up there myself so I could compare his description with the reality. Today's condition report says
"Cracks have formed in the cornice along the summit ridge that should, obviously, be avoided."

False. Cracks have indeed formed, during the recent thaw, and the surrounding areas frozen solid. The cornice was generally pretty solid and stable. There was some powder on top however, from new snow last night and this morning, and this gave way pretty easily. None of the dozens of climbers out today bothered avoiding the cornice, so long as you took care with the powdery bits it was pretty safe - or as safe as cornices ever are anyway.

"The summit area is covered in a thin layer of ice and snow."

He got this bit right, though from that sentence you'd probably imagine a lot more ice and snow, and a lot less uncovered rocks, than there really were.

"Full winter clothing, footwear and equipment, including ice axe and crampons are essential for anybody venturing above the snowline even for those not attempting steep routes since the summit area is particularly treacherous."

False. I kept crampons on as I couldn't be bothered to stop to take them off. even though walking would have been easier without them. But there was a layer of new snow overlying the ice on the summit area, people were walking along this quite easily without crampons.

And as long as you kept away from the east face, there wasn't enough snow for an ice axe to be of any use whatsoever.

Yes, this exaggeration will put off those who really shouldn't go there in these conditions. But it will also put off those who would be fine, as well as meaning that there's no difference in the warning given for today's conditions and for those where axe and crampons really are essential.

Sorry, rant over.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
so, no self arrest equipment needed for folk on Swirral Edge?

I didn't see too many folk braving the significant cornices above the snow bowl, and the folk who first came over the cornices in the morning were more circumspect. I was there all day and there was doos condition and poor conditition.

particularly noteworthy was the danger of balling up crampons. Movement was more awkward on the steep slopes than is commonly the case on that face

In reply to Anonymous:
You obviously missed the bit where I said "if you kept away from the east face".

Anyway, the weatherline said axe and crampons were essential for anyone going above the snowline, which they weren't.

And yes I agree about the risk of balling up crampons, one of the reasons that for those approaching from the west (ie the usual tourist routes) it would have been easier and safer not to have crampons, contrary to what the report said.

In reply to Simon Caldwell: i was there on friday and i would most definately disagree with the axe statement. unless most of the snow melted overnight. swirral was certainly trecherous decending!

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
I agree with most of what you say, as I think the reports exagerate the conditions. The LDNPA have made a rod for their own back in that they have chosen to report conditions underfoot, not just the weather forecast. Therefore there will be the usual arseholes who will sue the LDNPA if they slip and twist an ankle. The wardens have to be ultra-careful in what they report. Those of us with a bit more nouse than Joe Public will decide for ourselves, and turn back if the cornice is too dangerous etc.
New snow fell overnight, thus changing the conditions reported from Friday.
I was out on Fairfield today, from Deepdale. Wet snow on grass gave way to dinner-plating unattached snow, then good neve. I went up via Greenhow End, then over Fairfield, Cofa Pike and St. Sunday Crag. The gullies, which I thought would be covered in new snow on old actually looked safely climbable. Wish I had now.

In reply to jas wood: stupid People make stupid mistakes no amount of conditions reports will deter them

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
axe and crampons not essential?!?!??!

one guy fell past me whilst i was on the left side of the east face of helvellyn today (sat 12th jan) with an axe attached to his rucsac, he was on the cornice or just on the east face but if he had the axe in his hand he would had arrested the fall which eventually ended at red tarn.

appologies to any family that read this as this incident may have been a fatality, but the warning needs to be put out their and people need the essential winter gear of axes and crampons!!

people as we were decending (using crampons and axes as an essential)where still accending in trainers!!!!!!

the LDNPA forecasts do not over eg the situation but put a clear warning out to the dangers of winter mountaineering without the proper equipment.

In reply to matt_welborn:
"the LDNPA forecasts do not over eg the situation but put a clear warning out to the dangers of winter mountaineering without the proper equipment."

I agree that they need to emphasise the conditions, but perhaps the over-exageration is due to legal reasons. For instance, last weeks "avalanche" report was a bit over the top, as has been agreed on this forum. The people going up in trainers probably don't read the climbing forums, or the mountain wether reports.
Last week, after the doom reports on BBC, on Bowfell, I was surprised by two things:-
1) Very few people were out - I met less than ten all day;
2) All bar one I met had an ice axe - most I usually meet in winter conditions have neither axe or crampons.

In reply to Removed User:


This is how I have always taken their reports. I think they alway err very much on the safe side of caution for the reason you have stated and also:

It is a general weather report for the Lakes not like the SAIS reports in Scotland which is is general used by climbers and are specific to avalanche conditions. Therefore Joe public who wants to take his 10 year old up there in trainers needs to be warned it might not be good idea, however remote the chances of an accident.

In reply to matt_welborn:
Given the circumstances I'm not going to get into a long debate.

However, I'll just repeat my point once more. The weatherline said that axe and crampons were essential for anyone venturing above the snowline (about 600m first thing, rising to maybe 700m later), even if not venturing onto steep ground. Whereas in fact, axe and crampons were essential for those venturing onto steep ground (eg climbing, or on the Edges). But not essential, and of questionable use at all, on other aspects, such as the paths up from Thirlmere.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Ha. Whether you participate or not if people perceive that you are recommending not to take an axe and crampons in the mountains in winter - whatever forecast/conditions report you read - expect some debate.

In reply to Removed User:

We saw some avalanche debris on the approach to Number 2 Gully and a large amount beneath the snow bowl. Whilst I do not know which day they occured, they had been snowed on, so a reasonable conclusion (given the monitoring of weather conditions for the past couple of weeks) would be that the avalanche warning was in fact correct. I know there has been reports of people on the face in the time after the warning without seeing any avalanches, but this perhaps makes them lucky not to have been caught in any rather than there was not any at all.

The larger cracks in the cornice yesterday were above the snow bowl rather than above the gullies, but people had descended there. Given the temperature yesterday, I don't think it would have dropped off and others had obviously didn't as they were descending there, but a member of our party didn't like it, so we crossed over from Swirral Edge instead. Discretion is the better part of valour or something similar. With today's warmer weather, maybe it will go sooner rather than later. As the report says on the LDNPA site, it needs to be treated with care.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

and what I was saying is I'm choosing not to participate any further. Particularly mow yet another person has told me I've said something that I haven't said. I'd have thought better of you somehow Mick.

Bye

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Simon

I chose my words carefully hopefully.

I said, "if people perceive "

Sometimes it doesn't matter what you actually said but how it is perceived.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
yeah fair enough, sorry :-|

In reply to matt_welborn:

matt,
what would you put as the time between seeing the fall and the rescue services attending, roughly?

I helped with a rescue on the E face a few years backand was surprised at the time it took, given the party in trouble called Patterdale MRT directly by radio. A salutary lesson.

In reply to jas wood:
ice axe and crampons all very good, but important to know how to use them too - wandered around
swirral and striding on saturday morning and saw some good and some extremly dodgy technique, with lots of folk slipping on the descents depite / because of crampons.

In reply to jas wood:

It might be pretty straightforward for an experienced mountaineer (I was a bit dubious about the need for a warning) but given two people have died on this hill this week. So putting out a bit of caution is probably a wise step even though it's not a Scottish situation.

In reply to Dr.Strangeglove: Agreed! I was shepherding some people up swirral edge on saturday and saw some fine examples of balling up - one girl had 8" snow "platforms" coming down and was rather close to the edge....

Oddly enough at 11am there were already MRT folk at the shelter (no idea what team) although they didn't seem in any particular hurry and there were no person shaped holes in the cornice. Maybe the just assumed that helvellyn on a wintry saturday was a pretty good bet for trouble The helicopter seemed to head in at 2.30ish.