UKH

What (non-student) mountaineering clubs are doing really well right now, in terms of membership?

I went looking the BMC hutlist at the clubs who own them and was upset by how some appear to be doing.

🔷Clubs with online presences in various states of dilapidation
🔷Clubs with 16 people at their annual meal
Major national climbing clubs with a website front page filled with obituaries
🔷I felt like all I found were clubs "just-about-managing".

So who is happening? Who successfully recruits new members under 35?

Sorry if the answers are obvious - I know I'm ignorant here.

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If anyone wants to have a chat with me off UKC, I'm happy to chat on 01457 597007 or message http://facebook.com/timdobsonuk

In reply to tdobson:

Indoor bouldering clubs are doing really well. They offer the facilities that the u35s want, within easy reach of large populations. I don't think that's what you meant, but that's where the shift in demand has gone.

In reply to tdobson:

I think that we (The NMC) do alright for ourselves. Our membership numbers are stable, slightly up on this time last year. Most of those that joined last year are under 35, the gender divide is narrowing with time. Our committee was over half under 35 until last month when I officially got old. We had 75 people at our last major event and there were at least 20 of us in the pub after last week's wall session.

In reply to tdobson:

Hi Tim. I am active in a local club (KMC) and we have made steady progress over 10 years on membership numbers and reducing the age profile. We have 20% more members, a reasonable gender balance overall and a committee with 30% women including our President. Over 60 members out of 170 odd attended our annual dinner. We had 100 meets last year!

Im also a member of the Alpine club which is in great shape too but I will let one of the committee give you some stats.

There may well be some clubs struggling but certainly not all.

If you want a chat DM me. Im also signed up to climbing clan.

All the best.

Andy

In reply to tdobson:

Well if the Alpine club would let under-18s join (which it doesn't) then I would join, alongside my wife and at least one daughter.

But they don't, so I won't. My elder daughter (13) is upset that the alpine climbing community in the UK won't accept her, despite having the experience to qualify for aspirant membership.

Steve

In reply to tdobson:

Hi Tim

Great question - how do climbing clubs remain relevant to new (especially young) members? 

The Rucksack Club teamed up with BMC TV to film our annual Gogarth Meet and try to answer the questions. Warning the following video contains images of Sun, Sand and Sea; the best crag in the world and a huge beach BBQ, along with a guest appearance by Callum Muskett!

youtube.com/watch?v=il909Fi9hKE&

I'm not sure we've got all the answers  but check out  https://rucksackclub.org/ - for a National club with its roots in Manchester and probably half of its 500 members in the area; 150 meets a year (including Wednesday evening climbing every week) and three great huts in The Pass, The Lakes and Glencoe for when you want to go further afield.

Judging by your phone number you're a fellow Glossopian (or thereabouts) so PM me if you want to find out more or catch up for a climb or a pint  

Cheers  Dom 

In reply to tdobson:

I think a clubs success mainly depends on where new members are sourced.

We the LMC (Lincoln), have gone from approx 65 members 5 years ago to 100 today. We're fortunate to have a Brilliant hut in North Wales. I'd put the clubs current success down to:

1) The efforts of out hut custodians and maintenance crew to ensure the place feels like a home.

2) Our current membership secretary who is a regular at the local wall and has massively improved our clubs online members page.

3) Drive and enthusiasm from members to get folks out.

Furthermore we are some distance from the hills and crags so in our area at least a club makes more sense in some ways than on in Sheffield where partners are easier to meet.  

In reply to gooberman-hill:

Have they given a reason why they don't take @U18s?

In reply to stratandrew:

Foreigner here. What's a climbing clan?

In reply to gooberman-hill:

I'v no care for the AC, but taking on children opens up a significant administrative challenge. demand is low, and it's seen as risky.

I would not be surprised if the vast majority of climbing clubs do not accept U18s as members.

In reply to tdobson:

Lancashire Climbing & Caving Club is doing well at the moment. For a long time we hovered between 200 and 220 and then suffered a gradual decline to about 180, IIRC. Then in the last 5 years or so we have gained a few dozen new members mainly (to my eyes) young folks. We believe this is largely a result of a very active Facebook page, which has about 400 subscribers. We also have a very full programme of meets, with barely a handful of empty weekends, one or two midweek meets every week. Even the hitherto moribund caving section is having a rebirth.

The FB page means people can hover on the outskirts of the club for a while before plucking up courage to come to a meet, and while doing so can feel they are getting to know a few members before they've even met them, and receive plenty of encouragement in advance of taking the plunge. A friendly and encouraging atmosphere is essential, especially to newcomers to climbing.

In reply to daWalt:

Im a long time member of the Mynydd (and CC). The Mynydd are going really well lots of meets, well attended etc - probably 90+ at the dinner for example. One of the USPs of the MCC is the acceptance of members kids at meets and in the hut. What this means is that members don't think they have to stop being active with the club if / when they have kids. I know it's not everybody's cup of tea, but it works for us.

In reply to tdobson:

The BMC ran a major survey of clubs two years ago. I remember laboriously filling it in, but also thinking "this will produce some really good data". Sadly the results were never released and I was fobbed off whenever I asked.

I'm in the GMC which has a reasonably healthy and growing membership - undoubtedly a decent hut in North Wales is a major draw for members (and a good revenue source). Our ethnic mix is narrow but to be honest, that reflects Gloucestershire! 

Anecdotally, I think some young people who express interest in the club are looking for an 'experience' for a week or a weekend, and are often prepared to pay for it. Taking time to learn skills slowly, as a mutual member of a club, sometimes runs contrary to this. I've heard that golf clubs and sailing clubs have exactly the same problem.

In reply to tdobson:

The Bullingdon  

In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:

I didn't mention it, but Andrew knows that I run a not-quite-a-club-but-pretty-much-a-club climbing meetup called The Climbing Clan: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheClimbingClan/

It's very inclusive, y'all are welcome - though probably most interesting to people near Greater Manchester.

In reply to gooberman-hill:

There are (were) a number of very articulate threads on this topic. In short,  to have U18's requires a welfare plan and an a designated welfare officer. 

This requires training and an implementation process. To be blunt no-one was going to volunteer for this commitment, and interestingly not the parents. 

Almost all the teachers/doctors/nurses said they would resign if U18's could become members.

If you believe that your son/daughter is committed, then you will have to be part of the process. 

Looking to heap approbrium on the AC (and I understand your frustration) doesn't help. Contact the BMC directly and understand the issues. They are very helpful but they still can't change the legal/welfare environment,  and they can't force volunteers to be responsible for the children of others. And until they are 18, in law that is what they are. 

In reply to Lemony:

I've heard lots of positive things about the Northumbrian MC. I am delighted to hear this. I gather a good number of people put in quite a lot of effort to make it like this - what do you think made the most difference?

In reply to Si Witcher:

Also indoor roped climbing. Not what I was asking about, but I agree 100%.

In reply to stratandrew:

Hello Andrew! Great to hear from you - I was just telling Emily T how I owed a lot of gratitude to Emily P and Dave W. It'd be great to have a chat sometime and exchange notes on Soviet military maps etc.

I've a lot of respect for KMC and heard a lot of good things. Emily P did have a good go at recruiting me once upon a time.

What do you thinks helped you get to this place? What's made that difference? I don't believe it's just luck.

In reply to dominic o:

Hi Dom. I regularly see your heroic efforts trying (succeeding?) in getting MUMC to be sociable. It's even possible we've once met - years ago I went on a joint MUMC/RSC meet. Always happy to head to the Globe for a pint and a chat!

In reply to Mike505:

How does your club mainly work? How do new people - perhaps who meet the club at the wall get from there to joining your club?

It's fantastic to hear of your success - and I'm booking a hut in north wales - so I'll check yours out. Thanks for the thoughtful reply!

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Hello LCC! Sarah keeps trying to recruit me (very effectively I must add). Not sure it's likely to happen at the moment - but your facebook group is very active and pleasing to see. As a newbie caver who was sad by the part of your website that said "our caving section only exists in name" - I've also been pleased to see the photos of those trips!

Whilst you're in nice place right now - is there more than a facebook group and welcoming atmosphere that you think has got you where you are? Is there anything else in particular you think has worked really well?

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Hello Mynrdd, you know I first heard of you all from a poster I found in the Globe in Glossop. I'm not u18, but I do admire your approach there. At the same time, I think the thing I've noticed is that young climbing is fairly well supported, university climbing is fairly well supported, then there's a gap - and then the "senior" mountaineering clubs do quite well.

Fabulous to hear of your packed dinner! That must have been quite an experience. I'm in your facebook group and see lots of good things - what do you think draws people in? How have you managed to get those members? I don't believe they are all children of prior club members

In reply to Y Gribin:

I'm happy you mentioned ethnic mix because even in a multicultural city like Manchester, it's a real challenge. It's one I'm keen to work on and acknowledging it exists is one of the first steps.

It's interesting to hear you discuss the challenges of "an experience" vs "a mutual commitment" - as a former member of a sailing club - I get this.

What's your approach here? Do you take everyone interested? Do you add hurdles? What works for you?

In reply to tdobson:

I feel Spurs have turned the corner.

Ooops! Wrong thread.

In reply to tdobson:

I think some of the implied assumptions in the original post can be challenged.  What does "just managing" mean for a club?  Are numbers significant, and is larger automatically better?

I would say a club is "managing" when it has sufficient active members to regularly support its programme of activities, and can raise sufficient funds to support those activities.  How many members this takes will vary - if they are all fully committed to climbing with few other distractions and are able to get out every weekend as well as mid-week it may be as few as a dozen.  Where people have other commitments and can only get away less often then it may be 50 or 60, of whom only 10 or 20 of these may be involved in a particular activity.  

I think 50-60 is a good number for a club, any more than that and it becomes difficult to know everyone.  I think of the large national organisations as "associations" rather than "clubs" - it is impossible to know everyone in a club with hundreds of members.  I suspect most people join these to gain use of the huts, and then climb mostly with a subset of friends from within the club.  Nothing wrong with this, but it is a different dynamic from a smaller more localised club.  They serve different purposes.

I think clubs in most activities, not just climbing, are struggling to attract younger members.  Judging from comments on UKC, they appear to view clubs as full of old people and hidebound by rules; understandably they prefer to climb and socialise with people of their own age.  Clubs used to be a way into learning to climb, but now they go to indoor walls for this.  Clubs used to be a way to find climbing partners, but now they hook up at walls or through social media.  Maybe clubs no longer serve a purpose and will gradually die out as their members get older, or perhaps younger people will start to turn to them when their regular companions become encumbered with kids or other time-consuming obligations.

As has been pointed out, accepting under-18s as members raises lots of safeguarding issues, especially when sharing accommodation, and most clubs don't want the hassle.  I think many clubs don't mind members bringing their children to some activities where they remain responsible for them (although for many a weekend trip is a welcome escape from children), and where they take place in public spaces it is impossible to prevent them.  However formal membership of a club implies full independent participation, and most clubs don't want to accept responsibility for other people's children, especially when taking part in potentially risky activities.

In reply to tdobson:

The south Devon mountaineering club is doing really well. 140+ members and trips to places I would suggest many less experienced people might not go without some help, including: Greenland, Yosemite (turning into a annual trip), lofoten, multiple trips to the alps. Mix of young and not so young. One advantage of the latter group being they are likely to have a garage full of cams and ice axes people can borrow.

One interesting comment I have seen is "I don't like clubs". To me this makes no sense. Today joining a club does not mean having to go to AGMs (I don't) or joining the committee, unless you want to, or all sharing a mini-bus. Today clubs work through forum-like electronic systems and can just be a way of finding some mates free on a Tuesday afternoon.

In reply to gooberman-hill:

You have my sympathy,  but as a long standing member of a smallish club, I see the flip side: What you call a "club" is simply the sum of all its members, who basically want to climb. In order to make clubs happen,  many of members will voluntarily sacrifice some of their climbing opportunities.  To a certain extent. They are not paid to provide a service and - unfortunately- accommodating under 18s involves a lot of sacrifice on their part.

In reply to tdobson:

I agree that it's a difficult time for traditional clubs.  I'm not sure I have an easy answer as to what's really happening -indoor climbing, easy online contact and social media, but we (the MAM) we are successfully attracting young members from our links with universities (traditionally Birmingham but now Aston too ).

We're a reasonably big club (550+) with huts in Wales, the Lakes and the Peak but that brings with it a lot of admin, finance and committee work.  Not everyone can spare the time it takes, and those you can tend to be older (often retired).  How to find younger people who have the inclination and the time to volunteer is always a challenge. 

In reply to tdobson:

Certainly the relationship between The Rucksack Club and the MUMC is an important one - the latter was actually founded by members of the former over 90 years ago! There are regular joint meets and two MUMCers recently won the inaugural Rucksack Club Expedition Grant for their trip to Madagascar 

https://rucksackclub.org/2019/11/06/the-rucksack-club-expedition-grant-for-...

Meanwhile, it'd be great to swap ideas - I'll PM you for an expedition to The Globe for a pint and a chat.

Cheers  Dom 

In reply to tdobson:

Cake at meets. (only semi serious). 

I think the key thing is the frequency of meets and having a full range of different sorts and venues of meet. Also we have started, thanks to one very devoted member, having several beginners'/new members meets where the emphasis is on really giving those people a day devoted to their needs.

In reply to tdobson:

The castle mountaineering club in Sheffield seems to do alright but I wouldn't join because some of their members seem to believe that they own the foundry lead walls.

I was in the Hereford climbing club years ago and that was great, just loads of trad and top ropes on Tuesday nights. Helped me climb my hardest, bounded through the grades. The club is apparently now dead despite the new walls opening.

I avoided uni clubs like the plague, they tended to be too political based on grade or gear. This summer I heard a number of club seniors at a Sheffield based uni club berating a fresher because he had dared to say that he might want to help organise events but wasn't leading hard enough to be worthy.

I am further put off by the gear theft, rock dropping battleships, 'top rope reservation', my female partner needing to rescue out of their depth sexist old timers trying to prove themselves to young women on HS climbs, and not getting the beer in the pub as offered for our trouble. Never trust someone from St. Helen's eh?

My general experience of clubs is that they are full of people who are only really together to climb and it's a poor glue. I have a particular dislike for hierarchy and social normality and lack the willpower to climb with people who I wouldn't voluntarily go for a pint with.

I honestly like nothing more than the disapproving looks given by club members while teaching a mate to lead on their first time at the crag, myself soloing beside drinking a beer from my chalkbag. 

I do actually think, however that your club looks like it's quite interesting and caters for a less niche sector than the morally reprehensible nihilistic hedonists who I choose to partner with. I applaud your efforts to encourage everyone to climb, in all weathers and fading light. I think it's great that you guys actually encourage trad as too many these days see it as something for 'experienced' people.

In reply to tdobson:

The CC has a steady stream of new members of all ages, including people in their 20s and 30s. 

In reply to tdobson:

The majority comes from the local wall i think, we get plenty of walkers in as well though, through people contacting us and friends of friends etc.... I think member retention is the most important aspect though. For a small club to work people have to be contacted directly at times and reminded of up coming meets, or forcibly dragged out at the weekend.

As for our hut its worth seeking out, I haven't seen many to match (in Deiniolen, wood provided, drying room, library and a scorching stove)

Enjoy

In reply to tdobson:

1. Generally we don't take ourselves too seriously (see club show and awards at the dinner)

2. The hut is a big draw

3. We do lots of outdoor stuff as well as climbing, (social walks, the fell race, the challenge meet etc) which means we draw in +1s. We also do a full range of climbing types, winter - alpine - trad - sport - bouldering

4. We don't stop members bringing their kids on meets 

5. We run the Turn Up and Tie On meets to get people who can belay / lead on the wall to climb with us (outside and in) to see if they like us / climbing in a 'meet' 

In reply to GrahamD:

As both an ex club officer, and ex parent governor at my daughters' school, I have a great deal of sympathy with the position of the smaller clubs; they have very limited resources.

I would have thought that given the remit of the BMC to develop climbing, and the position of clubs within the BMC, that the development of template safeguarding policies and best practice for safeguarding is completely within the remit of the BMC. 

Steve

In reply to aostaman:

I have some understanding of safeguarding issues (I am an ex school governor), and have also served as an officer in a climbing club.

I have an amazing lack of sympathy for the AC. They are one of the UK's senior clubs, and a founder member of the BMC.  Their mission statement reads:

The Alpine Club is the only national club for Alpinists and is the World's first mountaineering club. For a century and a half its members have been at the leading edge of worldwide mountaineering development and exploration. We aim to be the club of choice for all mountaineers. We provide a forum for sharing experiences and information. We welcome all mountaineers.

They are not a local club with limited resources. They are a national organisation who claim to be the representative body for the UK's alpinists. 

If, as you say a significant proportion of the membership would resign if under 18s were permitted to join, I see no point in joining to try and change things from the inside - it's just futile.

Steve

In reply to gooberman-hill:

But none of the national clubs (AC, CC, FFRC, etc) have any paid staff (I think that's the case anyhow), they're all dependent on volunteer efforts. 

Why does it matter so much to you whether a 13-yr-old can join in their own right (as opposed to having a parent who is a member)?

In reply to gooberman-hill:

To be clear. I was not referencing the AC, this was the sobering experience of a local club. I do not and have never been a member of this institution. 

Re your earlier post about the BMC and their remit. I can assure you that they try very hard to encourage youth development. They do have templates,  they provide free or low cost training. However they can only encourage, they can't force clubs (and that means the members) to volunteer for any role. 

In reply to gooberman-hill:

Leaving aside all the  potential  behaviour problems, I think that in the current climate many clubs (and members ) are twitchy about having kids in huts.

In my own club a group of parents was agitating to have greater access to club huts for kids a few years ago when one of the mothers casually dropped out that, of course once the new rule came in all members would need a CRB check as a condition of using the huts. That was the end of more kids in huts.

In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

Just for the record, The NMC has had under-18 membership since I was President a good few years ago. The rules/policy were formulated under the legal BMC guidance and the whole exercise took a couple of years to get to a policy which protected the club and it's members and which the membership would endorse.

I haven't seen the policy for years now and it may have evolved over the years, perhaps a current committee member could comment, as I don't recall anyone getting CRB checked and I don't think there's a dedicated "youth officer".  Re going on overnight meets, one of the thorny issues,  different huts will have their own under-18 rules which need complying with.
 

In reply to JDal:

I don't think anyone bar this probably slightly loopy/paranoid mother ever considered a CRB check was necessary but it was enough to raise the thought of 'OK, if we go for this  where's it all  this going to end up? Maybe we won't bother after all'

In reply to Wiley Coyote2: yes, a fair point. At the end of the day a club is owned by it's members and if they are uncomfortable then so be it. We had some membership pressure to allow it, being the "senior" club in the area (I'm  not comfortable with that concept) we should be trying to maintain the county ethic. Plus We had quite a few parents desperate to get their sprogs into something worthwhile. I dont think that's so important now that local walls are inducting youngsters.

In reply to JDal:

We actually amended/tightened the policy earlier in the year after taking some U18s on the new members meet and feeling that we weren’t happy with the process. I’m just checking exactly what we ended up with.

In reply to gooberman-hill:

The BMC has a safeguarding group (made up mainly of volunteers) working to an extremely high standard, to the extent that the rest of the sector follow their lead. They essentially meet the same standards as would an organisation like a primary care health trust. Training for clubs is offered as part of the package. https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-child-protection-information

In reply to Misha:

I recently went to my first CC meet as an aspirant member and had a really good experience. Felt very welcomed and enjoyed some great company on the crag and at the hut. Look forward to more meets and would highly recommend the club to others.