UKH

So i'm pretty goal orientated when it comes to new skills. I've only really been climbing for 18 months. My big goal last year was to send a 6a outdoors (which i completed, just). This year i have my sights set on trad climbing. My girlfriend and I have been out seconding a few times (VS was our absolute limit). And we've booked a learn to lead trad course in the peak district this June.  

My questions are thus:

How realistic is our aim of climbing HVD in 2019?

How did your first HVD go?

We are definetely only weekend warriors. We'll probably only get 20 to 25 real  climbing days in before summer draws to an end in September, supplemented with bi-weekly sessions indoors. 

I ask because we don't want to apply ourselves to something that's unachievable / compromises safety.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

I'd say very very reasonable and that you could/ should aim to lead HS/VS given that you've seconded it already.

Good luck

HVD is very achievable. However, depending where you climb may have an effect. On gritstone, the easy grades can be a frightening experience as they can be unprotected. I think severe can be where things get a bit more standardised and is easily attainable in a first session or two on trad. 

Quite hard? Easier than severe but harder than vdiff?

Given that you've climbed 6a sport / seconded VS I see no reason why you can't climb a HVD. The question I'm asking myself is why set such an abritrary goal? In my opinion you'd be better off just going trad climbing for a weekend and trying out some different routes. Especially since HVD is a fairly uncommon grade.

Either way, in answer to your actual question, leading an HVD is not by any means unachievable for you (and you could probably achieve it on your next trip). 

My advice would be to avoid HVD graded routes altogether because most of them are complete sandbags which start with some godawful polished trick move that will put you off climbing for life. Ignore the grade completely and set your sights on S, or HS or VS or whatever - I'm sure you'll be more than capable of those given time, patience and practise. Just don't either of you try HVDs because they're bad for your ego, if nothing else.

Climb it and enjoy it for what it is, have fun with the struggle if there is one. Leave you ego at home and just enjoy the climbing, failing isn't the end of the world or your climbing progress.

The lower grades don't really progress in way that makes sense to a modern climber. If you've already done f6a, then that's equivalent to the difficulty of the climbing at about HVS/E1 (obviously leading an HVS or E1 is different proposition to leading a sport route) - so the increase between VDiff and Severe isn't really meaningful. As for there being a half-way grade between the two, there basically isn't!

Try a VDiff, try a Severe, an HS, a VS. Likelihood is that the routes which feel hard won't have any correlation to the grade, it'll be much more to do with the style and what suits you as a climber. 

My advice is to look at the guidebooks and see what inspires you - what routes look like they'll be amazing fun? I'd say anyone who can already climb f6a should be trying a few easy routes around the Severe mark to get used to trad, then if comfortable and motivated, get stuck into the VSs, which is where you can either cruise a route or get horribly shut down. Learning how poorly the grades correlate to difficulty is fun in itself!

Grooved Arête (HVD 4a)

One of my first lead climbs. Brilliant mountain multi pitch. If its in an accessible location for you (Snowdonia) get on it. If you can lead 6a you'll piss it.

HVD is the type of grade you will be taught to climb on. A 6a outdoor sport should translate to leading in the severes within a few climbs.

Obviously there is the different mindset when it comes to placing and trusting your gear. 

For comparison my first proper outdoor trip I was seconding 6a and leading 5a, 2 weeks later I lead a VS. I had an very experienced climber with me which was useful and everyone is different.

You'll be grand OR setting your targets higher

It's not a real grade, it only exists in the fevered imaginations of a few English guidebook writers. Pick a real grade for a target like VDiff or Severe or hardXS.

Bloody desperate based on the sandbags I've done

Where are you based?

If you can second VS clean and Lead 6a then I agree with people saying S/HS is a more reasonable goal (although YMMV, obviously. Trad is all in the head). 

My first 3 outside trips (with minimal indoor climbing under my belt) were:

1. Sport leading up to 5+ on Portland limestone.
2. Trad seconding up to HS on Cornish granite.
3. Trad leading HVD & S in Avon. 

After 1 year I was pretty happy leading HS, though I did get out a fair bit (>100 climbs).

In Northumberland HVD is the hardest grade.

As the name suggests Hard V Diff is harder than V Diff but not much because it's also easier than Mild Severe which actually isn't much harder than V Diff. If you can tell the difference between HVD and MS then you're a very talented climber because hardly anybody else can!

In terms of climbing a HVD, its the sort of grade you should just be able to climb anyway, whether you go on a learn to trad climb course or not because if you can climb 6a then it will be piss easy. People seem to make a big deal of "learning to trad climb" these days, probably because they learn to climb indoors so it becomes some kind of mental barrier, a bit like "making the transition to climbing outside" has become some kind of barrier. In reality these barriers exist only in people's minds.

Until not that long ago everybody learned to climb outside on trad and it was no big deal and most of them would have climbed about HVD as their first route and probably led one not long after.

Don't create mental barriers that don't exist. Trad climbing isn't voodoo, its just climbing.

"Don't create mental barriers that don't exist. Trad climbing isn't voodoo, its just climbing"

I think of all the things I've read here that's the most encouraging tid-bit. I've definitely built a mental barrier between sport and trad. The biggest obstacle for progression will deconstructing it.

That's for the advice Pec ! You're a good egg.

Just my experience - for what little  it's worth. 

The very first trad lead I did was HVD.  Didn't do much seconding prior to this (one or two HVS's).  Had tried a few routes on top-rope (but not the one I lead).  Didn't find the HVD expecially hard, was probably lucky.  Remember having a few trouser fillers on VDs afterwards, yet finding some S (and even VS routes) pretty easy.  These were all in Northumberland for context.

I find the trad grades in the D, HD, MVD, VD, HVD, MS, S range to be pretty bonkers really.  I could never tell the difference between them - (still can't).   I don't see why we can't have just D, VD, S.

If you're worried about it, then maybe make sure when trying routes near the top of your grade to make sure beforehand that they are well protected (I didn't tend to do this, and came a cropper at least once).

[Edit] Not sure I'd personally chuck myself at a trad route with the same abandon I would a sports route (especially if I was a beginner), but each to their own.

Completely realistic. Once you're comfortable placing gear, you could easily aim higher.

However -- watch out for HVDs that have "traditional" in the guidebook descriptions! They sometimes involves "old school" skills like jamming or offwidthing which you don't get to learn indoors, which can make them terrible sandbags (and which aren't always easy to place gear on).

The HVD grade sometimes seem particularly prone to collecting anomalies, routes which are total beasts but where no-one will upgrade them to Severe because they're classic Hard V Diff, dammit.

You might do better to aim for Severe as a goal rather than picking HVD in particular.

Once you've been on the "learn to lead trad" course, I'd recommend looking for some people with more trad experience to climb with who don't mind coming out with you to do a bit of mentoring as you get started (especially if you offer to bring cake or pay for the beer afterwards).

I did a course as well and it was great, but it made a huge difference after that climbing with people who could keep an eye on my gear placement, give constructive criticism, and point me at suitable routes as I tried to put my knowledge into practice (buxtoncoffeelover in particular gets my eternal gratitude). Clubs can also be a great resource -- they're often not keen on teaching people from scratch, but fine with people who've got the basics but need a bit of mentoring.

Someone who knows the area where you're climbing can also help keep you away from the worst sandbags!

I suggest Verandah Buttress (HVD 5b), a lovely little HVD!

Though for what it's worth, I fell off a green and moist Recess Wall (HVD) on my second or third ever trad day out, a nut caught me and from then on I knew I could trust my ability to place gear properly (and that it worked) despite never having been on a course. Probably one of the best things that could have happened! 

I wonder if the op had a typo and meant HVS?

Lots of good advice above, and as they say for a 6a leader Severe should not be a problem.

I'd just like to say that while a goal-oriented attitude is great for making progress in sport climbing, it's not such a good idea when you move to trad. The problem being that if you push too hard and fail, there can be serious consequences.

I used to climb with a guy who was very focused on moving up the grades and getting the big ticks. It's down to him that I moved up the trad grades quickly and have E1s in my logbook. He died pushing it too hard in the pursuit of a big tick that he wasn't ready for. Sorry to be such a downer, but I am pretty bitter about this. I'm on a mission to encourage anyone starting out on trad to forget about grades and progress,  and just climb for your own enjoyment.

Couldn't agree more HVD is a warning sign which says " This is a V Diff, well almost, because it has at least one short section which is impossible for a V Diff leader ( or many higher grade leaders). 'Impossible' in this context means impossible to climb by any recognised climbing technique or style, but is surmounted by a combination of luck, faith, grunt/thrutch and desperation". 

I climb for pleasure, and I've not met many HVDs which I would describe pleasant experiences. As others have said, skip this so called grade and go for quality Severes, Hard Severes and mild VSs. They are a lot more fun.

A word of warning though, if you go North of the Border be aware that Scottish V Diffs are not like English or Welsh V Diffs (apart possibly from Northumberland V Diffs) . They are in a class of their own

If you can get up 6a clean you’ll walk up HVD. Not loads about though, so better to aim for a severe at least (which is only a narrow margin harder).

FWIW HVD is about 3/3+ sport equivalent, and Severe easy 4.

Lots of good advice here. As many have said, there are lots of serious sandbags in the VDiff/HVD area. The question for you is how to spot them before you discover the fact 30 foot off the ground facing  a 4b move without a runner. Read the guidebook carefully - words like classic can be a danger signal and also look at the first ascent details. Some old routes are the worst. Remember that protection is the most important thing when you're finding your way, so when you're standing at the foot of a route be very cautious if you can't see the first couple of placements. Perhaps most usefully of all look at the UKC log book entries.

It's certainly achievable! When starting out make sure your familiar with your gear, practice placing at the base of the crag, when seconding remove the gear and replace it to get a feel for it.

The best thing you can do is look after your headgame and for me at least the foundation of this is knowing I can judge how good a gear placement is, knowing the best bit of gear to use and being efficient in placing it. If you seconded VS, Severe or HS is probably within the realms of possibility and if you pick the right route pushing your limit (say HS) can be done quite safely.

You'll probably find that as you relax on routes, gain confidence in your footwork and gear placements, your grade will rise even with no significant gains to your strength. Most importantly pick routes your psyched for and enjoy the process.

I'm a rubbish climber, and my first ever lead (on my first day of climbing) was Severe. You'll easily manage HVD if you can lead 6a and second VS.

"Only 20 to 25 climbing days"? 

I'm fairly sure the OP means HVS, rather than the somewhat obscure grade of HVD.

To the OP - sound advice from a friend and guide: in your first year of climbing, don't fall off! A good mantra for surviving and enjoying the first year. HVS is a very fall-offable grade, even for stronger climbers. I'm sure you can do some HVS, but there is a huge range in difficulty and seriousness within that grade. Not only does that mean HVS could be 'serious', but it also calls into question HVS as a goal.

My advice would be: sod off the grades issue and concentrate on skills. Aim to have completely bomber gear every time (don't place bad gear), slick and efficient rope work and belay transitions, and to be operating confidently and competently at all times. Make sure you also build in the skills to retreat/descend safely, e.g. abseil and protecting scramble descents. Get in a mix of short sharp routes and longer, steady routes, preferably on different rock types and up different features. The skills of trad climbing are so diverse, and something like route-finding, gear-finding and effective rope work takes experience to build up.

Your question reveals that there's a lot to learn, and learning is a really fun and rewarding process, so avoid (IMO silly) grade goals and set yourself some open-ended, reflective, skills-based goals. 

I've never really got this "HVD = evil sandbag" thing. Looking back through my logbook, the HVDs that I've done - mostly on grit - have all been things like Flying Buttress, Maud's Garden, Yong, and Heather Wall and I can't remember anything that felt particularly unreasonable at the grade.

Depends if you like climbing unprotected polished routes in hobnailed boots with hemp ropes

I was waiting for that to come up

The only V Diff I ever remember being seriously challenging was Angular Chimney on the Gribin Facet - and that wasn't even given HVD. (Oh, and the one that Hat Dude's just mentioned, which frankly is a grading absurdity, that seems to have become accepted as an 'traditional joke'.)

Never a truer word spoken.  In my experience HVD is code for "it's about as hard as VDiff but it's weird in some way".  Couple of tricky gear placements, a Diff with one really awkward move, or you have to be careful with rope work to avoid drag, or (as quoted) it's a damp off-width.  Grit chimneys usually get one of two grades:  if there's a way you can protect it, it's a Mod.  If there's no way you can protect it (but it's still tight enough that you'd struggle to fall out of it), it's a HVD.  

I've done Severes that were more straightforward than most HVDs.  There's a couple that are worth your time: flying buttress at Stanage is magnificent.  Otherwise, just miss it out and go straight to S.  If you can second VS/HVS, and your gear is solid enough, you will probably make light work of plenty of Severes.

Edit:  Add Maud's Garden to the list.  I'd forgotten about that somehow.  It's got a little bit of everything.  Slab, face, crack, chimney, arete.

Oddly I found Flying Buttress (HVD 4a) to be uninspiring, but perhaps I should have done it when it was closer to the top end of my grade. 

Yong (HVD 4a) is excellent, as is Pedestal Route (HVD 4a) and Maud's Garden (HVD 3c). Ylnosd Rib (HVD) and Answer Crack (HVD) are worth checking out in the Chew. Back on the Eastern edges, Heather Wall (HVD 3b) is probably the only one I think worth it's reputation, maybe Renshaw's Remedy (HVD).

As the name suggests Hard V Diff is harder than V Diff but not much because it's also easier than Mild Severe which actually isn't much harder than V Diff. If you can tell the difference between HVD and MS then you're a very talented climber because hardly anybody else can!

 on Yorkshire grit, I think there’s a difference; MS routes tend to be on smaller holds, and ‘marginally technical’, maybe one 4a move but in  a reassuring position.

HVD though... ‘it goes up *there*...? I’ll get my wetsuit and some caving equipment. And a suit of armour... ’

I’d pick MS over HVD any day....

You'll achieve your aim; you'll surpass your aim.  Don't get fixated on it.

Every climber that knows what they're doing grumbles about folk top-roping routes, but when you're just starting out, I think it's fine as long as you're sensitive to other people that might want to climb the route too.  And every climber wants a clean ascent, ground up, no rests, falls or pulling on gear; but you're just starting out.  Ignore all that.

If I were you, I'd have these amongst this year's targets: learn how to place different types of protection so that they work for leader and second; learn how to set up a belay; learn how to set up a top rope; lead a climb, set up a belay and bring up your partner (all of these should be covered on your course where you might well exceed your target grade); choose a route, a Severe or Hard Severe. set up a top rope and climb it a couple or three times so that you 'learn' the route; then lead it.

Are these things the height of pure, ethical climbing?  Course they aren't, but you can be bothered about that once you've got the hang of things.  Just choose a route that suits your needs and ambition on a crag, or a part of a crag, that's not too crowded and get going.  You've got a good summer ahead of you, enjoy it!

T.

For an indication of how many evil sandbags are to be found at HVD, here's my perverse quest for them:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rocktalk/hard_very_difficult_hard_vdiffs-...

Yeah perhaps.  I found it very thrilling but it was amongst the hardest I was able to do at the time.  I had to psych myself up to commit to the top-out!

My personal experience with VD and HVD is they are often scary, runout and dirty.

Find a good solid S with decent gear!

Some good advice on this thread. I would only add, gain plenty of Trad gear protection experience as you can whilst enjoying the climbing. Stick to single pitch climbs, which are easier to escape from, until you build up more technique. At 6a you will already have this anyway. Probably obvious, but I've seen plenty of 'close calls' including my own in my early days of Trad. 

And Grooved Arete (4a) on Tryfan is a pleasant climb, but not if you haven't climbed multipitch before.

Have fun though.

PS   BTW Verandah Buttress (HVD 5b), is a good example of a classic Stanage sandbag! 

The only problem with that approach is that you don’t learn how to find natural rests to stop and place gear without tiring your arms. Sure you might climb it 3 or 4 times and get up it hauling your feet up as you go, which is fine on top rope but leading you’ll need to be able to let go with one if not both arms to find and place and check gear. Isn’t that how sport climbers chase their grades? Completely different ball game to trad.

I’d start leading more or less straight away, after gear placing practise on the ground, even if it’s a scramble or a Mod. Then slowly work up the grades as you learn to spot random knee bars, heel hooks, bridges, leg jams, hand jams.. that enable you to stop and hang around quite happily. It’ll teach you how to read the route better too, and spot where your gear is, and where the rests are likely to be from the ground.

If all you're after is climbing the route then yes, you're right.  Learning the route requires a different approach, knowing that in a bit you're going to need those rests as well as looking for what gear you can get where.  I could perhaps have made that more obvious.

T.

Go and climb 10 Diff routes.  If it feels ok then do 10 VDiffs next time you go out.  See how far you get.  You'll know pretty soon when you hit your limit.  VS should be achievable this year I would have thought given a wide enough base of route experience leading up to it.  Your issue is unlikely to be the physicality of it, its learning to place good gear and to trust it that's hard.

You say HVD doesn't exist and then say do a HS! 

You'll be saying MVS is a chimera next

If stanage is your local crag, then that can work 

but there’s few crags where you can do 10 routes of the same low grade, so you’d end up with short days or a lot of driving around. 

(And at most Yorkshire grit crags, trying to do all the Vdiffs is the territory of the hardcore and the perverse... as it takes you onto some exotic [read filthy and scary] ground....)

try a diff, vdiff, then a friendly looking severe. Repeat to get a range of rock types and styles of climbing.

north wales great for starting multi pitch routes of a low grade and friendly character 

These "filler in" grades, HVD, HS, HVS were meant to fine tune the broader grades so in theory it should be possible to just say HVD is harder than VD but easier than Severe etc.  Unfortunately they seem to have confused matters and I think it fair to say that, typically, they tend to be the most contentious grades.

Al

This is probably implicit in what people have already said, but to spell it out: when it comes to trad, grade alone is a bad predictor of whether a route's a good option for a novice leader.

There are Severes which could make lovely first leads, and Diffs which would be dangerous nightmares.

If it helps you to have defined goals, it might be more useful to think in terms of a number of routes by the end of the year, or, as Pursued by a bear suggests, making a ticklist of skills to practice.

HVD is a very strange grade (along with MSand MVS). It's been dropped by many guidebooks. Historically there were often sandbags at the grade (some of which are now graded HS or VS). Personally, I think you are better off aiming for VD or S, if you must try HVD, check the logbooks on here for warnings first...

All these people saying  HVDs are all desperate sandbags!

Just how many pseudonyms is Zimpara posting under now?

Yeah but Zimpy was doing them with six ropes all backed up with Prusiks.

Yeah, pretty much as everyone else has said, not a lot of point striving to climb HVD.

HVD isn't 'the grade between V diff and severe' - my understanding is it is basically a V diff with something beyond the grade - eg the unprotected slab at the start of 'Flying Buttress' at Stanage (which incidentally a friend slipped off and broke his leg on!). Forget HVD and just head straight for severe, which is perfectly achievable and more consistent than HVD.

That probably makes more sense.

I wonder why the OP hasn't clarified this? There seems little point in staring a thread asking for advice if you don't subsequently dip into it to see what the responses have been.

Basically HVD is not that hard compared to an indoor 6a. And kudos for not doing the beginner thing of looking at grade comparison tables and thinking of getting straight onto an E1. Any grade could feel hard though depending on how you're feeling at the time: some you cruise through, others you meltdown on. Instead of thinking abut a grade how about, on your lead course, have a look around for a route that captures your imagination and work towards that? The good thing about trad is that they don't go away (usually!) after a month or so. 

Good luck.

He / she replied on Friday, maybe they are away for the weekend.

If you start trad climbing in January you'll be leading Severe or better by June without any courses!

Nuts go in cracks, quickdraw on nuts, rope in quickdraw. When you get really good you slow yourself down by carrying half a dozen cams up the route.

It may all be an elaborate troll. Although, in that case they would definitely have written of undertaking a course "in the Peaks"...

Someone else suggested a typo, with S being next to D on most standard UK keyboards, but the OP thread title contains "difficult"....so possibly some confusion between "difficult" and "severe" especially if perhaps they'd GLANCED at a grade conversion table, seen HVS at just below 6a, and wanted to write that but forgot the names at the time of posting....

I am 50-50 whether it's this or a bizarre troll (I know they posted back on Friday and I know some people aren't glued to social media all the time)

Not sure why your post has garnered twice as many dislikes as likes, so I liked it, just to balance it up a bit

Seems there's a) dissensus about whether Grooved Arete is actually worth its stars, or is actually an overrated heathery scramble (I've not yet had the pleasure, so cannot comment); b) probably some people objected to saying that because you can lead 6a you can breeze a trad climb - perhaps esp. as the reputation of 6a as a grade has been somewhat done in by indoor jugfests...

The op says he's "sent 6a outdoors", so J W. has a point I'd say. 

He probably does! I was just trying to explain why people have disliked a comment, mostly because I should be working to earn someone else money and the resulting boredom results in all sorts of strange and inane behaviour...

UKC is an enigma. That is all you need to know. For example the post of a FWA the other day got dislikes. God only knows why.

Hey guys ! i can see why everyone thought it was a typo. I had no idea that HVD was such an ambiguous grade. I definitely know now. Thanks so much for everyone who posted on this thread, i was at work all weekend so i couldn't dip in as much as i'd hoped. 

To make it clear, i genuinely meant HVD. I've been dreaming of doing the Inn-Pinn. And my partner and i have been eyeing up the South crack HVD ***. I'm going to take on the advice of the other, more experienced climbers here, if i'm going to aim for anything i'll aim for 'S' instead. Given that south crack is a classic, it'll probably be closer to that anyway. What i've taken away from this though is that with trad-climbing, i should be less goal orientated, and just focus on frequency over 'box ticking', skills over bragging rights and so forth. 

This is the first time i've posted in UKC, and i have to say i'm really impressed at the responses i've received from everyone. Some really encouraging and constructive advice here. Once i'm more experienced (perhaps 3/4 years down the line) i'll respond in turn, by helping greenhorns like myself on this forum. 

Thanks everyone, wish us luck. 

Can't really say much for every rock type, but in my experience low graded stuff varies so much its too hard to even realistically compare.

At my local crag I would rather be on HS and VS then on the S routes, which are loose, polished and badly protected.

hahahaha. Yes C Witter you caught me. 

HVD is a very realistic goal, not just for 2019, but actually for your first day out AFTER you've done your trad leading course. Having led sport 6a, you already have physical ability to climb around E1. What you are probably missing is trad skills such as placing gear, setting up belays, rope-work, finding safe descents, abseiling etc. Once you have learned those then it's just a matter of mileage. Lead about 10 pitches of each grade starting from Diff or VDiff before moving on to the next grade, and enjoy.

K.

My own personal appraisal of HVD is RQA, Really Quite Awkward.

How? Are you admitting this as an elaborate troll? In which case you've broken the rules by replying to your own thread. Either way, a good thread, fun to read.

Wonder where the idea that "trolls" can only contribute once  to a thread came from.  It's patently nonsense.  The general idea of trolling is to wind people up by putting forward inflammatory opinions, even if the poster doesn't really hold these opinions personally.  Best way to do this is to keep revisiting a thread to fan the flames.  stroppygob/big ger was a good example of such an individual.  

God knows what must be wrong with your mind to want to spend your time doing this, but there you are....

Maybe it's that the best trolls don't need to revisit. Just light the fire, sit back and watch the explosive conflagration.

Less good trolls need to stoke the fire.

Interesting thread, trolling or not

I’d suggest you can still be goal oriented, aiming for skills rather than grades. I can think of a few goals off the top of my head, and It would being interesting to hear what other would add for you.

Get organised - from racking your gear, to being efficient at the crag so you can get the most climbing out of your day, (sometimes, finding the crag/route itself).

Find rests/balance - to recover energy, calm down, place gear from etc.

Downclimbing - essential to get yourself out of trouble, or come back to a rest or check the route out.

Building up a wide range of movement - all the different jams, bridging, weird gritstone shapes - proper good fun and better to learn on easier/safer situations routes.

learn to use half-ropes, build belays, abseil, etc. so you can go multi-pitch

get a feel for rock quality - is it loose? what can I do about it? how to avoid taking out yourself and you partner.

Speaking personally, I went out for a day with Mark Reeves about five years ago, did my hardest lead of the time (goal oriented!) and was then advised to drop a couple of grades and do dozens of routes at that level to build up skills. It was a great piece of advice. Shortly after, not having fully taken the advice on board, I fell off something my ego thought should have been easy (gradewise) but which I didn’t have technique for (off-width).  I learnt that a well-placed cam works, but if you’re way above it and taking an uncontrolled fall, you may well fracture your knee… I took Marks’ advice after that - to get serious mileage on easier routes, and it was brilliant - enough leeway in the actual climbing to think about everything going on and to get out of the situations we sometimes put ourselves into for fun and adventure. One of the many great things with trad climbing is being able to have amazing adventures without necessarily pulling the tendons out of your elbows, there is so much to learn.