UKH

I want to preface by saying that I am not planning on retro-bolting Roslin. Even if I wanted to, I probably couldn't afford it. This is simply a discussion out of interest. Although my stance is not opposed to retro-bolting it if the landowners gave consent (which they likely wouldn't).

I recently posted here to gauge how controversial this opinion is, but I find it strange that a plethora of trad routes were established in Roslin Glen in the 80s and 90s, despite the questionable rock ethics of trad climbing on soft sandstone. Many of the trad routes were effectively pre-rehearsed free-solos, like Hezbollah, which was described as "unprotected until after the difficulties" and Hanging Rock which appears to be an E4 5c (I'm assuming that means free solo). It seems a shame to me that because of a few individuals with a penchant for risky climbing, Roslin Glen is now an unpopular trad crag with only a handful of climbers visiting annually, instead of potentially being one of the central belt's most popular sport crags (most of the routes have no logs on UKC, but obviously not everyone logs their climbs). I did wonder if the rock holds particular historical significance, as would be the case for Wallace's Cave area, or if the rock is of geological significance, like Siccar Point.

Even the easier routes which I have climbed in the VS-HVS range are incredibly sketchy, I believe with even a very sparce bolting potentially in conjuction with knot based gear the routes at Roslin would become far less risky.

There are actually quite a lot of reasonably safe routes at Roslin. The rock is also not that bad once cleaned. Routes like Roslin roulette make for fantastic trad routes, and realistically would be very mediocre to poor sport routes.

In terms of the landowner. I imagine bolting would create problems. I’ve had no run ins climbing but know of him threatening to cut down high lines.

Oof that sounds about as I had expected in terms of the land owner. What makes you say mediocre to poor?

Is it actually safe to load the sandstone with gear? I've never fallen in roslin so I just assumed the gear was just for headgame since it is very soft sandstone.

You could make this case for a huge number of crags in Scotland, which personally I don't buy. FWIW many of the routes at Roslin are/were out my league mainly because I lack the cojones.

Regarding Wallace's Cave, this would almost certainly be an insurmountable issue assuming any there was any hypothetical consensus on bolting: https://portal.historicenvironment.scot/document/600012599

The rock varies from sandy death (wouldn't hold a bolt anyway, or holds, and nobody climbs those bits) to bullet hard. I've taken falls on gear there and I don't recall anything pulling out. The good routes are excellent as they are and (Hezbollah aside) there is always gear somewhere. So it deserves more attention - it's a lovely, atmospheric, adventurous place to climb, although kinda lacking in the lower grades. 

All that aside it's a nature reserve, a scheduled monument, a SSSI, in Scotland, and not quarried. So really couldn't be much less suitable for bolting. Soz

Makes sense I might give some of the harder routes on trad a go once im back to full health, I suppose my main concern in the past has been that the gear would not hold or that it would damage the rock? Considering that there are images on UKC of the top-rope damage it is probably best that the place doesn't see too much foot traffic?

I've not climbed much in Roslin Glen-pretty much only around Jumbo's Bum- but I did come away thinking much the same. If climbing were the only use for the place, a utilitarian stance might dictate that more climbers could reap greater enjoyment from the problems on offer if they were bolted. However, the glen is a pretty magical place for many more reasons than climbing alone, and it is also a fragile place as outlined by Dr Toph. I don't think certain parts would last long as a sport venue with the increased traffic.

It would also go against the established climbing ethics in the UK- while these may seem a bit bizarre to some, it does mean that the UK has retained a rich climbing heritage and a large number of climbs where the challenge presented by a route remains as close as possible to that faced by the first ascensionists (I'm aware that the standard approach to first ascents in the Glen is a bit different to that elsewhere). In many other countries, bold sections on trad routes are protected with bolts, bringing down the difficulty of a climb and making it more accessible to a wider range of climbers. There are pros and cons to this, but in the UK we must embrace the fact that climbs are not by default brought down to a safe or widely accessible level.

If you want to get the "sport climbing" experience in Roslin Glen, why not take your own portable bolt ladder? Get a length of static line and tie some knots-on-bights along the length. This will form your "extended anchor". Tie it to a tree at the top and take care to protect any friction points between rope and tree or rock with rope protectors, old gaiters etc when draping it down your chosen route (a static rope will still stretch a little). Then head back down to the bottom and lead the route on a normal dynamic rope, clipping it into the static rope with quickdraws as you go.

I agree with your point that some trad routes would be better as sport routes. But it is so extremeley nuanced I feel online discussion about it just doesn't work. The scale of bold and/or adventurous to relatively safe trad may have routes better as sport at any point and the devil really is in the detail. I think bolting a whole crag is rarely the best way to go and a local consensus of the any proposals should always be reached. Regardless of my points a few FAs will hold routes hostage until they die so good luck!

Edinburgh is not well served for outdoor climbing of any sort really, Northumberland and Dunkeld being the closest venues of any quality. I can see how having more sport climbing venues close by is attractive as even those who mainly trad climb run into the problem that necky Trad routes are only ever climbed once by people and they soon run out of things to do. As others have said above, Scotland is almost world class with the quality of some of its Trad venues but anyone making a special trip just for the Sport is going to be disappointed, there are no Malhams, Kilnseys or LPTs. I can't think of more than a tiny handful of venues worth travelling any distance too. The problem is geoligical rather than the lack of bolts.

In terms of Roslin I struggle to think of a single climb that would make a good Sport climb. The example given of Hezbollah is a case in point. I did the FA back in 1989 and even though it had prior toprope pratice it was still a real life afirming experience for me as a solo and it has since had onsight ascents. With one bolt the line would be an uninspiring F6b at best.

You make a very real point man especially about the "utilitarian approach". This is part of the reason why retrospectively I would never bolt the place it is a lovely location for walkers, geologists, nature lovers, historians and climbers alike. I am definitely feeling from many of the responses that i have gotten off on the wrong foot, as a trad climber I understand that the same ethics that allows me to trad climb in venues that I love are also gonna protect many of the crags from bolts, that I think would warrant the occasional sport route. I will admit I should have phrased the post a lot more delicately so thats on me.

Also i like your idea of a bolt ladder but sounds sketchy as.

A bit off topic, but talking about Scotland as a whole I disagree. Not about Malham or Kilnsey, but LPT...controversial opinion perhaps, but I think (for example) Goat Crag is miles better than LPT. There are quite a few Scottish sport venues I'd rather climb at than LPT.

Not that making it Scotland vs not Scotland means much from a central belt point of view, because you can probably get to Llandudno quicker than you can Gruinard Bay.

Cheers for the reply. FYI I didn't downvote your original post, where you made it quite clear that you weren't planning on retrobolting- merely asking how the status quo came to be. My response was an attempt to answer your question, and was not intended as a criticism of you (or anyone else) for asking the question.

And yup, best to think the potential risks through for yourself before giving it a go!

Hi Rick thanks for the reply, I hope i didn't come off too rude in my original post, I guess that i was a little sad that I would likely never get to lead many of the routes, I've always found myself a little uneasy soloing even easier routes, maybe puts my mind at ease a little that you say "the line would be an uninspiring F6b at best".

I've never really understood the 'it'll get more traffic as a sport crag' argument for bolting. I don't much care how much traffic a crag gets and the crag itself definitely doesn't care.

More valuable public entertainment resource? A bit like taking a weedy playpark with graffitied slide and two broken swings and building the full works with rubberised surfacing?

Not to suggest this should necessarily outweigh other factors, but it's something.

With limited rock and ever increasing numbers of climbers, with all the issues around parking and erosion etc that brings, I think it makes sense for people to wonder whether people can be encouraged to spread the load over more venues. There are plenty of good counter-arguments for a lot of crags, but I think the question is valid. 

That's a different argument and one that I do understand. The one I don't get is that more traffic is a good thing in and of itself.

I understand the analogy and it's a good analogy but I think it illustrates the problem I have with a lot of bolting. I don't view the rock as a public resource, it's been around for a long time before us and will still be there when we are dust.

Yes, almost any crag would get more traffic as a sport crag.

Maybe resource is a bad choice of word, with its connotations of exploitation. I mean it only in the sense that we all as climbers treat the rock as a natural playground. It's something which is there and which can be enjoyed. And 'public' in the sense that it's available to everyone.

I think when people say 'it will get more traffic' what they actually mean is this - that it will offer more enjoyment for more people. Maybe. It certainly makes more sense to me.

Again, I don't think this in itself necessarily outweighs separate arguments against bolting.

Those with a penchant for risky climbing might also say that it seems a shame that a lot of stuff that could be hard trad has been developed with bolts due to a few individuals with drills.

Both sides of the spectrum should try to accommodate each other. Retro bolting Roslin would take more from one side than it would give to the other.

As an aside, your log book suggests you don’t climb much sport anyway. Curious why you feel there’s a need to bolt Roslin when you don’t seem to have visited other local sport venues like Balgone, North Berwick and Ratho quarry?

..and less room for nature etc. 

The ever increasing number of climbers aren't all going to be 'living it', they'll be transient hobbyists who are only ever likely to want to climb the popular quality routes at established crags. I'd wager that if we could pull the numbers of the logbook database, anyone with less than say 500 logs, or an average of 20-30 a year will largely have climbed only at honeypots. 

To be fair, he didn't say there was a need, he just said he wasn't opposed.

I thought it was a reasonable way to frame the question, and the replies have also been very reasonable.

But it isn't available to everyone unless you go bolting vast swathes of it. Your argument is born out of entitlement.. you're saying everyone should have access to it, which is contrary to the default. Nobody has a god given right to scale any particular rock face, it's an imagined right because we have the ability to make it relatively safe. As someone said above, if you're that intent on climbing it then 'bolt' it with a static line dropped from the top and clip in to that. Leave no trace, innit.

*perhaps folk do have a legal right under CRoW but that is indeed then at their own risk. There's no entitlement to make any activity 'safe'.

I'm going to have to take umbrage to this. Either you haven't paid attention to what I'm actually saying, or you've misunderstood it badly.

When I say that rock is available to everyone, this has nothing to do with whether it's bolted. It has nothing to do with making it safe. I'm talking about the principle of open access to the public of the natural environment, of which rock faces are part. Call this 'entitlement' if you like - guess the Kinder trespassers were 'entitled' too then.

Yet again, I'm not saying that this principle trumps everything else in deciding whether a crag should be bolted or not. But making a shared attraction more enjoyable for more people is at least a legitimate point. Otherwise we wouldn't bolt anything at all.

You are correct. We should try to answer the question without questioning the motives for asking.

Placing bolts undoubtedly goes against the grain of the history and traditions of climbing in this country. While the utility of sport climbing is proven, it is all but impossible to bolt a route that doesn’t close down the possibility of someone else having a great trad adventure in the future. Unfortunately, it’s a circle that can’t be squared. All we can do is try our best not to tread too heavily on each other’s toes. Bolters shouldn’t go around retro-bolting venue’s that even a limited number of bold climbers still enjoy and traditionalists shouldn’t be chopping bolts at sport developments purely on the basis that a top trad wad coulda soloed that easily…

At some point those honeypots were cleaned, developed and (in the case of sport crags) bolted. Many of Cheddar’s most well worn sport routes used to be sketchy chop routes that wouldn’t see anywhere near so many ascents in their original state. I wasn’t saying that everywhere should be bolted or making a case for bolting just because somewhere doesn’t see much traffic, only saying that I can understand why someone might ask the question about crags that hardly anyone visits. 

I think there is a balance to be struck and I think we are lucky in the UK to have a mix of styles. 

Spot on. And of course many (most?) of us climb both trad and sport, so it's not just about appeasing 'them' but finding a balance in our own values.

In all fairness I don't log all my climbs, just ones I find notable, with a few exceptions for record keeping (my recent injury has knocked me down quite a few grades so i want to track my progress back into the E grades).

But also my question was never intended for my own personal use I was just interested in hearing peoples opinions on the ethics. ALSO what I really wanted to hear which I should have made clearer in the original post is whether the routes are better served for bolting and top roping in a similar sense to why the sandstone in the Czechia is bolted since the rock is so soft conventional trad gear has the potential to damage to damage the rock.

It's useful if the crag is prone to being lost to vegetation. Enough traffic to keep it clean. But yes, increased popularity shouldn't be an argument in of itself.

Largely that is a matter of taste. If you go down the style trumps path you will always end up at everything should be soloed which certainly isn’t to my taste. Those scary Roslin routes will have been meaningful to some people and now need to be left as they are for others who might wish to share that experience, not be tamed with bolts.

Perhaps the lack of sport climbs in your logbook then points to a lot of “sport climbs” just not being “notable”. Bolting Roslin would almost certainly reduce the notable down to nondescript. When people talk about bolts really they are often referring to “convenience climbing” for a bit of exercise which can be fun, and there is a place for that, but it’s quite different from sport climbing. Climbs with bolts generally only starts to become meaningful when you have to put in a bit of effort to climb them.

Would you call me a transient hobbyist? I've been climbing for around 10 years, but if I bothered to maintain a log book on here I'd guess that there would be less than 500 logs.

Reason is I live in London with no "real" climbing venue a day tripable distance so outside of pre-planned weekends away and trips, climbing is pretty much limited to walls. 

Before we had kids I climbed at least twice a week, nowadays even with two kids and working full time I climb once a week & train several times.

No doubt if I lived in Sheffield, the Peak or any of the many places in the UK that are closer to venues I'd have way more ticks in my imaginary log book as many of the evening and weekend sessions I've had down the wall would have been at a crag, but it's just really difficult for me to get away.

Yes you could argue that I don't really "live it" as if I did I would have moved to Sheffield or somewhere like that by now, but my partner and I both have London centric jobs and it's all I've known for the past 20 years...

I dunno what the point I'm making here is.  We climbers are diverse, and we live in a wide variety of places and lead differing lives, which means some of us find it harder to get to the crag than others, doesn't mean we're any less keen!

Personally - given the crag is an established trad venue - bolting it seems silly and out of character. Not even from a disrespecting the rock point of view - just by climbing the rock we change it permanently - polishing it up, leaving chalk marks, peg scars and crampon scratches (less of a problem at Roslin glen . Ultimately, the line on what is an 'acceptable' way to damage rock is all a bit arbitrary to me - and in cases, bolts might even mitigate the impact (I think the bolts at the midway abseil at Diabeg are far less visually intrusive than the 4 pegs equalised with slightly crusty static at the top). For me - the decision of if to bolt a crag lies largely in the hands of the first ascensionists and the established style of the crag - and given those folk aren't psyched on bolting Roslin, it would just be a bit of a dick move. Roslin may be a bit of a special case, though - given the sandstone is so soft, anything to increase the traffic significantly (like bolting it) would have a significant impact on the rock. 

Also - (unless I'm mistaken), setting up top ropes responsibly is easy there and would mean you can enjoy all the routes without needing to lead them - why not just do that? 

"Also - (unless I'm mistaken), setting up top ropes responsibly is easy there and would mean you can enjoy all the routes without needing to lead them - why not just do that?"

C'mon man, comparing climbing a route in perfect safety using a top-rope? or climbing a route in perfect safety, clipping bolts above your head every 5 feet?....thats crazy talk!

Yes, I would. I didn’t mean it in any derogatory sense in the slightest, purely from a physical presence sort of angle.. we all make choices, or end up in situations which we might wish were different. As an example I’ll ask.. if I could give you a whole weekend to go climbing on a visit from London in the Peak with a good weather window, where are you honestly spending your Saturday and Sunday? Don’t be telling me it’d be Crowden Great Quarry… 🙃

They're certainly far more intrusive than no bolts at all there.