How to not be scared of falling on gear?

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 SiobhanStraver 12 Jun 2020

To be clear, I’m not afraid of falling itself. When sport climbing falling doesn’t even cross my mind, I have no issue with it.

But on trad, ooOOHHh noooo. I can lead 7a sport, but VS/HVS trad- I can’t push myself because as soon as I’m not sure of the onsight I feel like there’s every chance I’ll deck if I fall, and that freaks me out.

(This may not be improved by all my trad being on grit, which at least to me feels so removed from limestone sport that nothing feels familiar?)

But unlike with falling on bolts, I feel like I’m afraid of something very real (the gear pulling out) and so I struggle to push it from my mind. (I know the gear itself is bomber, but is my placement?)

I've tried being like, okay fine I'll just get on something harder, I know I can climb harder than this, but that voice in the back of my head is still like 'yeah but what if you do fall?', and it kind of has a point?!

But how to fix this? I can’t just go lob on all my gear, but I can’t see myself progressing with trad when I’m too scared to do anything that seems uncertain.

(If it’s relevant I’ve been trad climbing about three years, but living in London only go about one weekend a month)

Post edited at 20:11
 Misha 12 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Get a more experienced partner to assess your gear placements. This can be done at ground level or you could top rope a route placing gear and then they top rope it to assess the gear.

Take practice falls onto gear you've placed but with a slack top rope to catch you in case it fails (this would require two belayers). Do that somewhere steep so you don't clobber yourself.

Best confidence booster is falling off 'for real' but I wouldn't recommend doing that deliberately without a top rope back up.

If you can lead 7a, even if it's redpoint rather than onsight, you should be able to climb about E3 if you can get the gear sorted!

5
 Skyfall 12 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

I’d say you need to get mileage in primarily.  When I was climbing trad constantly I could lead almost as hard as I could second, with maybe an (English) tech grade In hand, if that.  

Interestingly though, I agree with your comment about grit.  It’s not just the style but the short nature of the routes and attendant higher risk of decking if all goes wrong.  I found I could climb consistently harder on longer routes, for example Lakes/Wales, when further off the deck for much of the route.  Very personal though.  

 Alfrede 12 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Oldies like me who grew up with a trad background will tell you you OUGHT to be scared of falling on trad gear. The tradition then was still that the leader should not fall: in the most active spell of my climbing career in the 1970s I went for five years without a single fall. The guy who eventually held me when I tumbled off the Dubh Loch was so horrified he never climbed with me again. That may be a bit extreme given the quality of modern gear but beware of coming from a sport background with the assumption you OUGHT to be falling off regularly. Its a different sport and you can expect your leading standard to be much lower. If you look at the stats the most common rock climbing accident is still gear pulling. The ethic is to develop an accurate sense of what you can actually do and regard the gear as an emergency back up not to throw yourself at moves in the hope you can do them because it does not matter if you fall off. This takes years of practice for most people. 

5
 knighty 12 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Like Misha said, the only way to do it is to get your climbing partner to appraise the placements.

When I'm on lead I rate the gear placement out of 10 in my head to give myself confidence then ask my second what they thought. When I'm seconding, I'm always looking for alternatives to the gear that was placed to see if there are any better ones.

Ultimately though, the only way to calibrate your scores out of 10 would be to fall and test your placement! Not very useful, I know.

Post edited at 20:44
 Andypeak 12 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Just climb more and more at a grade you are happy with. If you get scared on VS drop down to  and do 50 routes at HS before  going back to VS. Get a solid number under your belt for each grade and progress slowly. Enjoy the experience rather than chase the grades, eventually confidence will come. 

 mrphilipoldham 12 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Did you see some of the crud-cum-bolts that they pulled out of Horseshoe Quarry during the rebolting? There you go, that'll make you worried about falling full stop  

In all seriousness, try falling on to some gear but with the back up of a very loose top rope? It's not ideal however as each and every fall on to the gear (especially cams) will damage the rock to a greater or lesser extent. 

Other than that, look for one move wonder routes where you can lace the crux up with 3 or 4 bits of gear. One that springs to mind if you want to push on to E1 is Anniversary Arête (E1 5b). One move above 4 bomb proof bits of gear then you can either put in another or just reach for the top. Saying that, the start to it is quite bold.. 

Post edited at 21:06
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 dr_botnik 12 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

I'm no expert, but on short grit routes having two ropes can really help psychologically. Knowing you've got a "baby bouncer" to fall on helps ease the mind, and knowing there's redundancy in the gear is good too. I'm struggling to get my head back after having 9 weeks off, but on easier routes like VS/HVS there's often multiple placements, which I am now making full use of as opposed to a more alpine style when I have my confidence back!

 The Lemming 12 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

I'd say having a healthy fear, for want of a better word, is a sensible approach.

Me and my mates live by the principle of the leader must not fall.

I have only ever fallen twice leading on trad gear. The first was a 20-30ft fall on an E1. Every time I see that number 9 wire I give it a kiss.

The second fall was only a couple of inches when I got spat out of the pea. Still shit myself not knowing if the kit would hold.

I never became complacent about my trad gear placement, and always assumed that it might just not hold.

1
 steve_gibbs 12 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Consider yourself lucky you're happy falling on bolts. I'm terrified of all falling. Period.

I've never managed to get over it, which is why I've been climbing the same grade for 15 years!! Though on the plus side, it keeps me safe, as I've taken just 5-6 lead falls in over 700 trad routes!

Some would say I'm not trying hard enough, but I'm actually quite happy in my comfort zone.

 Andy Hardy 12 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Ok I'm feeling a bit guilty now. 

What you could do, next time you're out is place some gear from the floor, clip a sling in and stand on it, rinse and repeat with different sizes and types of protection, nuts hexes, cams, tricams RPs whatever you've got.

Reflect on what works, try to work out why it works. This can also be done when you're seconding routes. When you've got gear placement dialled in at ground level, assess your own placements on easy routes. Try resting on gear every now and then (especially when there are multiple pieces close together)

Only when you're absolutely confident that your gear is bomber would I recommend practising falls.

All of the above is really "training" rather than "climbing".

 Kevster 12 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Get rid of the grit! I often find it too short for safety. If you're 30m up when you hit a crux, you have a lot of space for your last bit of gear to come into effect. Grit being so short often means it just gets dangerous, even at vs, hvs or e1 and gear at just above bouldering level offers a significant and sometimes ground fall potential on grit cruxes/ when topping out. The top half is the the scary bit for grit, no?

Find a nice size sea cliff (though peak lime can be ok too). Plenty of height for a margin of safety. Water landing if it goes wrong on a number of routes. The rock is not always but often limestone or a similar climbing medium, just like your sport routes. So lots of comfort. Familiarity. And best of all the mental aspect says it's HVS, I sport 7a on the same rock, I should not stuggle on this hvs/sport 6a crux. And you're used to being above the bolt/gear. 

Falling on trad can be serious, but I think good climbing is risk management. More space, more time, less stress, less risk. 

Besides picking your venue, just get the volume in. Trad is also about head and confidence, you can only earn that by getting the experience and support.

I didn't fall for ages, eventually I found I climbed better once I had taken a fall recently, so each season I like getting that fall out the way. Pick your routes! You can fall safely. Go to millstone for example, grit I know, but often protectable, likewise with cracks on other rock types. I can think of protectable cracks well into the E grades, no need to fear the gear. Once you're happy with the gear and exposure,  the diversity of routes will spread to those which have more apparent risk.

Some where ong the journey you'll find the right ground, aproach and partners. 

Happy and safe trad! K

In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Developing and engineer's sense of what is good and bad is the key to setting runners and main belays. Spend lots of time walking around boulders just placing gear, to develop a sense of what is poor, what is good, and what is really good. Put a sling on the gear and jump up and down on it. You will gradually realise that a good nut or hex or cam placement is as good as a bolt. For my money it can actually better than an old bolt whose placement one can't inspect. Also, when placing gear on lead, (ideally) it is best to climb up so that the placements are somewhere between your head and your waist - then you can see exactly what you are doing and how good the placement is. Don't bury the gear too deeply in a crack: this does not make the placement stronger and makes it harder to see how good it is and also harder for the second to get out.

Once you have built up confidence in your placements, you will find this gives one a tremendous psychological  boost as a leader. You might be in a position high up a pitch that looks dramatic from below, but if you get two good pieces of gear on separate ropes (say), right in front of your face - that you can see are bomber - the situation for you as the leader is suddenly reduced to feeling as though you are about two feet above a nice grassy terrace!

 Alex@home 12 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Also don't underestimate the importance of a good belayer. If, for instance, you have as single good wire in at the crux of a grit route (e.g. Tower Face) you want to know that your belayer understands the importance of standing close to the rock. I watched a friend deck from there because of poor belaying and it was not a nice experience. Luckily he was ok physically but his confidence was shot for ages after

 brianjcooper 13 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

> But unlike with falling on bolts, I feel like I’m afraid of something very real (the gear pulling out) and so I struggle to push it from my mind. (I know the gear itself is bomber, but is my placement?)

Conversely, I find bolts worry me more as you can't always see if a bolt, behind the hanger, is damaged. Plus the number of falls it may have taken and weakened it.  

As a Trad climber (hate that term) at least placing my own protection I can see how it is placed and 'feels'. As others have said, you just need more practice. If you are uncertain of a piece of gear, place more frequently in a pitch. Not always possible, but you get my drift.

It also helps to lead routes you have previously seconded. Builds up your confidence for the future.

Have fun. 

 GrahamD 13 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Firstly I'd say DON'T take practice falls on trad.  Aside from the small risk of a failure, it will unecessarily damage the rock and specifically the critical gear placement position. 

My advice would be just climb trad, ideally with an experienced trad partner you trust.  Listen to their feedback and look at their gear placement when you are seconding.

 mark s 13 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Its all confidence on your gear placement. Also knowing how well it will hold in a fall. You could place a nut the best way absolutly possible but you could still suspect it would rip. Due to the rock and not your skill placing grear. Its something that comes with practice like everything with climbing.

 dinodinosaur 13 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Morning!

So firstly I'd like to say this is definitely something you can fix and this thread has loads of good advice. I have had very similar issues to this and so has dave macleod which he details how he overcame it in this video  youtube.com/watch?v=HuY6zWgZhYc&

A couple of assumptions, (correct me if I'm wrong) you are obviously not a prolific logger, but it sounds like you do more sport climbing than trad? I'm also assuming you are a girl therefore not tall or super muscular. 

My two cents, the key for me was dropping the trad grade and trying to do loads of different types of routes at that grade. Especially when going out one weekend a month you need to make that weekend count. The more trad you climb the more you will understand about gear placement, finding good positions to place it and judging how good it is. You can also do the placement at ground level as others have said and get a competent partner to rate it. 

What I feel will also help is to stop climbing grit (for now). Grit is an intense experience at any grade and especially so if you are shorter or weaker (My girlfriend has lead E1s and seconded E3s on other rocktypes but on grit she finds HVS pretty damn hard). The longer limestone or mountain rock routes generally have the difficulties spread out across the route with a crux high enough that the floor is never even a consideration. The rock has way more hold options on it so that you can pick and choose the ones that work not just that big chalky lone hold just out of reach. Also I've seen first hand my girlfriends small hands trying to jam a crack that my hand was bomber in, it can just change the game a bit when crack climbing. 

My last piece of advice is (if you can afford it) pay a professional to run a bespoke one to one course with you. I did this last year and it really boosted my confidence on trad and allowed me to climb loads of routes I wanted to but was under confident. 

I wish you the best of luck in your quest, it's not a simple fix but with determination and a will to succeed you can overcome your fear. 

Edit: and most importantly don't forget to have fun! That's why we do it right?  

Post edited at 10:02
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Hi somethings that may help that I use with clients, mainly around sport but I have used with trad as well.

Off the bat, the first thing I do is look at grading their level of anxiety, I like to do this by talking to them get them to grade themselves and watching them climb to see if it matches up, I tend to do it out of 10 with 1 being scared to lead and even letting go while top-ropeing and 10 being a frequent flying clocking up good air miles with very few worries, I also Like to add A,B & C  to the grade just like climbing grades to be able to fine tune it, it’s worth noting just like climbing grade they will probably be in a range so 5c on a good day and 3a on a bad. The reason for doing this grading, is you can see a starting point and can set realistic goals and progression based on this it would be no good being a 2 and expective to do one thing and jump to a 10 that's not very likely. And remember its probably not about curing it, it’s about managing it. I know a lot of very good climbers who are nervous of falling even on sports but they can control it most of the time. 

Once you know the starting point, look at what the fear is based around, e.g on trad is it that your gear wont hold (common)? if so then you can set challenges to address this, even things like setting a top rope with supervision moving to without will help develop confidence using your gear and swinging around on it, getting used testing you gear by hanging on it (with a back up safety if you feel like it at first). Go on a course and have training on placing gear and having your gear assessed, all of this can help.

Quite a lot of people know their gear is good in a controlled environment or on easy ground because they don't really think they will fall off. But start to have doubts when they feel the climbing is pushing them and their brains turn to negative thoughts. providing your gear is good (see above) then you are looking at exercise's to help stay positive and focused, you cant have a positive and a negative thought in your head at the same time so you have to find way to make it positive. Some things that work are, double breathing, positive self talk, developing a routine that leads to positive thought, even music used right can help. I am happy to give you more advice on the about exercises but didn't want to just add them here as it would be a very very long post.

I would also look at working on, expectations and managing this and not let it become a negative. You are climbing 7a sports, how much pressure are you putting on your self to preform on trad? if it's a lot and you thinking about it a lot then it will be negative, this may not be relevant to you or fear of falling, but if it is there it wont help you start to feel more relaxed. 

hope that makes sense.

Happy climbing 

Rob

 seankenny 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Kevster:

> Get rid of the grit! I often find it too short for safety.

This!

> Find a nice size sea cliff (though peak lime can be ok too)

This! But not Swanage, even tho it is near London.

> Pick your routes! You can fall safely.

Listen to this, not the "leader must not fall" guys who are still stuck in the 1970s.

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 dinodinosaur 13 Jun 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

This is also assuming the 7a sport was outside? If it isn't there unfortunately is a world of difference between the two in my opinion and being comfortable on real rock helps with trad climbing no end.

Some more food for thought, when comparing sport to trad ability I prefer to compare onsight grades (as these are more like each other) again unfortunately just because you can pre rehearse a sequence on something hard doesn't automatically mean you can onsight efficiently reading the correct sequences straight away on an easier route. I would say in my experience that by using the rockfax table and comparing colours you can get a good idea of what is possible on trad with your sport onsight grade. Using this I would say someone with average experience trad climbing who can lead sport 6b onsight could onsight trad E1 5b without much worry (bottom of red section).

​​​​​To me it sounds like a case of improving confidence in gear for yourself, but I just wanted to highlight that climbing is more than I can lead x so I should be able to do y. Be kind to yourself and take time and enjoy it


2
 jkarran 13 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Make sure the gear is good: take frank (can be painful, remember your response will impact the quality of future interactions) feedback from other seasoned climbers. Place and test lots at ground level, look closely, see what really locks the gear in and why some bits still wobble after they're loaded. Think what will happen to the gear as you move on, will it stand being pulled this way and that, can you improve its resilience? Is the rope run safe from pinches and edges?

Check the fall is actually safe, it's ok to worry, lots of grit falls are a bit marginal, short routes, ledges, spaced gear. Remember you always go much further than 2x the runout.

Take other precautions: redundant gear for starters, bad things happen, we misjudge placements, blocks break out, skin strips off rock, krabs unclip and snap. Stick a helmet on, don't trust one piece where 2 will fit until you have the experience to know very clearly why you're making that choice.

Remember it's supposed to be fun.

Jk

 petecallaghan 13 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Lots of good suggestions in this thread. I would add another: pick a few occasions to spend time placing gear and aid climbing up it.

Protect yourself with a top rope and a patient belayer or a fixed rope and a couple of progress capture devices + back up knots (make sure you know how to do this safely). 

Climb the gear you place, not the rock. Make sure you weight the gear and test it before moving up to the next placement.

You don't need to learn aid climbing, just stand up on (eg) 120cm slings attached to the gear placements, with a couple of overhand knots at 1/3 of the length to create foot loops.

Pick varied and various rock and routes where other climbers won't be affected by you spending a lot of time on the routes, and avoid fragile rock. 

You will learn a lot about gear placement in a relatively short time,  and hopefully gain faith in your gear based on real experience rather than hope. 

 Paul Sagar 13 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

It’s hard to believe until you’ve put it to the test, but a well placed nut and (especially) a well placed cam are as safe as a bolt, so long as the surrounding rock is good. 

I came to believe in this truth by, erm, falling off enough times. And I’ve fallen off plennnnty of times now. Good sample size. 

unlike me you clearly (and understandably) don’t want to convince yourself by the method “oh shit, here we go bllluurrghh”. So I’d say Misha above gives good advice: find other ways that you can come through experience to learn the power of good gear. Once you believe in it, falling on it becomes a lot easier

(though full disclosure: I’m never *as* comfortable falling on gear as bolts, there’s always a little heart in throat moment just as I let go. But not enough to stop me climbing confidently before that point is reached.)

Post edited at 13:44
 Paul Sagar 13 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

ps maybe also try climbing somewhere that takes gear really well and where you’re not always near the deck as with gritstone. North Wales is ideal here, Tremadog especially. I also live in London and climb in Wales plenty. Just got suck up that extra 1.5 hour drive. It’s worth it!

 Paul Sagar 13 Jun 2020
In reply to jkarran:

I think the more than 2x the run out point is really important. I’ve almost been caught out (both as climber and belayer) by this on a few occasions in the past. You really can go quite a long way further than you expect. 

So I’d also add: only climb with a belayer you have full confidence in. So at least that is one less thing to be thinking/worrying about. 

Post edited at 15:24
 Tom Valentine 13 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

As an older ex-climber I wouldn't go so far as to say that the leader should never fall, but you should treat with the utmost suspicion anyone whose advice tends towards getting used to falling on trad routes, as if it is part of the normal course of events. It isn't, and shouldn't be.

 Misha 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Agree. A certain reticence to fall off on trad is understandable and healthy. As you say, you need experience to know when it’s (relatively) safe to fall off and it’s never going to be the same as falling off onto a bolt. Leader placed gear is rarely going to be as good as a new(ish) bolt in solid rock (in fact bolts are rated to something like 25kN whereas most gear is no more than 14kN and a fair bit less for smaller pieces, though if you generate anywhere near 14kN you’ll probably have other things to worry about anyway).

Yet there is no need for excessive fear of falling either, as long as your gear placement is good and you aren’t going to hit a ledge or something else (which is why falling off on lower grade routes is generally a bad idea).

The real issue is that people who haven’t done a lot of trad with more experienced partners and who haven’t tested their gear one way or another might think that their gear placement ability is better than it actually is. Particularly with cams as it’s easy to place them in a way which looks good to the inexperienced eye but isn’t (especially once you get away from the regularly sized cracks and breaks on grit). So it comes back to someone more experienced evaluating the gear, pulling hard on gear at ground level and practise falls with TR back up (just don’t do it on popular routes and make sure that the rock is vertical or overhanging and there are no ledges or other features in reach).

As you say, eventually you learn to trust your gear by virtue of falling off onto it but before you get to that stage you have to know what good gear looks like and how much to place. I like taking a big but safe involuntary lob now and then just to remind my head that good gear does hold (I know it does but there is still a psychological barrier to overcome). However it’s not something I would recommend doing until you know that the gear is good, so it’s just a case of testing your head rather than the gear. 

Thinking about it, there are two separate questions. Is the issue that the OP does not know what constitutes good gear? Or does the OP know what good gear looks like but has a psychological block about falling off onto it? Or is it both?

 Misha 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I’d say in an average situation you’re likely to go about three times further than the distance to your last runner, due to stretch and slack in the system (even without excess slack out). Less with a very attentive belayer if it’s important to minimise the fall. So if the last gear is at two thirds height and I fall off at the top, I’d expect to be very close to the ground on rope stretch without the belayer taking mitigating actions such as taking in slack and/or running back. Using a single rope would reduce the stretch but increase the load on the runner, so depends on what’s more important. Half ropes are pretty stretchy!

 Misha 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

I’d say it’s ok to fall off if it’s safe to do so. The issue is having sufficient experience to know when it’s safe to do so. That takes years to develop, so it’s fair to say that most people should adopt a ‘leader does not fall’ mindset for the first few years of their climbing career. It’s not a bad mindset to have at all times, it’s just that it will hold people back - which is a good thing for the inexperienced. Fear is essentially a protective mechanism.

 Simon Pelly 13 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

When climbing trad, certainly I tend to climb well within my abilities. Do not want or expect to fall off.

Getting more confidence with trad placed gear takes time. Way back did a bundle of aid climbing with views of doing big walling (still a dream). However, having to rely on gear for aid climbing really gave more confidence. That said, suggest you be mindful of where and when you do this if you decide to try it.

Simon...

 Tom Valentine 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Misha:

Holding people back from what?

Is climbing always  about pushing yourself into areas of difficulty where you are on the edge of your ability in terms of both technicality and safety? 

Or is it about enjoying movement on steep ground and appreciating the crag environment regardless of grade and reputation?

There's enough good climbing at any given grade  to keep people happy for a lifetime in the UK alone. The assumption that you aren't climbing properly if you aren't pushing it is a false one. Imagine somene who is shit hot at sport  ( I don't know the grades)venturing on to trad for the first time and a bunch of people telling him/her what would be an appropriate starting grade for the transition.

Would they include Tophet Wall in their list of suggestions? Or Poor Man's Peuterey? I don't think so. And that would be a massive loss in that climber's trad experience. 

As for saving them till you're older - that is one very very bad idea.

 Misha 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

Sure, depends if people want to progress through the grades to expand their climbing horizons and do inspirational routes. Also some people like to challenge themselves. But not everyone and there’s nothing wrong with that, each time their own.
 

I was assuming that someone like the OP who can do 7a sport is interested in getting into the E grades and not trusting their gear would certainly hold them back in trying to get there. Of course my assumption might be wrong. 

1
 Osiris 13 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

I've climbed about the same length of time (trad) as you and have had similar thoughts recently.

I'd second the idea of getting someone experienced and competent (who isn't going to hold back) to assess your gear (in a range of rock types and venues) as I guess you could be a pretty strong climber, but your gear could be shit. If you have to ask how good 'is my placement?', then you'll struggle to climb harder or fall (I know I would). I don't profess to being particularly experienced, but I know when my gear is good and bad, having fell, slumped and aid climbed at various times on it. Even the smallest nut and cam are remarkably strong when well placed, but it does feel weird to trust it if you've never even weighted it.

Beyond the gear placement element, perhaps it would be worth looking at your mental game in general. I've read some good books that may help: I am currently reading Arno Llgner's book, The Rock Warrior's Way. I find it quite enlightening and much of it seems geared towards falling. Dave Macleods' 9 out of 10 climbers and Jerry Moffats Mastermind seems good, too.

Post edited at 21:32
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Wow thank you so much everyone who’s replied, so many useful things have been said. 

It does come largely down to trust in my gear, so the suggestion to not only practice that in terms of getting more climbs in but also with a more experienced climber I think is a really good point. The suggestion to have a top rope back up on some practice falls is great too- exposure to some safe falling I think would really help. 
And yes, I’ll get on something other than grit aha! 

It’s not that I’m trying to grade chase or set unrealistic expectations either, but I want to be able to enjoy trad as much as I do sport, albeit I’m sure they’ll always be in different ways. Definitely important to have fear but I think the amount I have is more than necessary. Like it’s important to realise you might crash your car, but not be so scared of it you can’t drive to work. 

But like I said the stuff in this thread is great and I’m so glad I asked. Thanks all. Excited to be able to hopefully begin making incremental gains to being more solid on trad. 

In reply to ecrinscollective:

I love the grading idea!! So important to have a means of measuring progress when trying to progress. I don’t think I’m overly self critical- I’ve been happy to come to trad as a beginner and in many ways still feel that way. In some ways I think this has meant I haven’t pushed myself more because I haven’t expected anything more. But I’ll think on that. Positive thinking in times of doubt could do with some work! Thanks for  the input

In reply to Andy Hardy:

> Ok I'm feeling a bit guilty now. 

Hahaha no it’s okay, I’m glad that came up. It’s something I’ve thought repeatedly I should address and now will. Growth is good! 

> All of the above is really "training" rather than "climbing".

100%, and that’s okay, gotta practice before being able to perform, right? 

 Tom Valentine 14 Jun 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

Idiot! I meant Creag Ddhu Wall not PMP

 Paul Sagar 14 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Another thing that helps is just getting out more often. You say you manage about one weekend a month - that's big gaps for your brain to go back to its old habit of being scared of falling on gear, not much time for the new 'this is safe' habit to take over.

FWIW, I'm part of the North London Mountaineering Club, and we get out a lot under normal conditions. We also have a Hut in Snowdonia that is free for members to use. Feel free to look us up and maybe come on a meet when we start meets again (hopefully by the end of the summer, i.e. when campsite are back open).

Personally I'm out of action for the foreseeable as I broke my leg two weeks ago. The lesson there being: doesn't matter how good your gear is if you've stupidly left it too low to catch you before the big ledge...but that's a whole other kettle of fish!

Post edited at 14:24
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In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Hi 

Glad you like the grading idea, I wasn't sure about the pressure from sports climbing hard, but I have seen it before.

something that may help, when climbing and placing/ evaluating gear placement is the double breath technique. It's a bit hard to explain via text but I will try. So when people get scared they start to shallow breath or even hold their breath and this messes you up big time, it’s part of the flight or fight syndrome, it makes you over tense and effects lot's of your senses, it effects your vision and your perception and leads you to panic (may make you think your gear isn’t good when it is), try it at home sit down and start to shallow breath hard, you start to feel stressed.  Then try this breath out once - Do not breath in but breath out a second time, then breath in, this forces you to take a full depth breath and this will start to calm you down, and allow you to evaluate better and focus.

Try doing it after you have placed gear to evaluate the gear calm and refocus your self before climbing on.

 leland stamper 15 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Did this on Saturday. Lovely day with Kev and two others. Most of the day is spent placing gear on lead with a slack toprope and then falling on it. Between the three of us we managed over 20 "falls" with no gear failures.

https://www.riseandsummit.co.uk/product/trad-climbing-falling-workshop/

For me it was best when considering gear placement, placing a variety of gear and then confidently falling on it.

 nniff 15 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Firstly, from London I'd say get yourself off to the Wye Valley - Wintour's Lleap, Shorncliff etc an d get a bit of height between you and the ground.   If you go to Wintours, don't just head to Fly Wall because it's not as high.

Get rational. 

Place a bit of gear.  Look at it.  Is there a physical impediment that will prevent it from pulling out?  Is it stable and will it resist tugging from the rope? Are the krabs well-placed (is anything likely to open a gate)? Is it 'sufficient'?  Look at the next moves.  Do you have  plan?  Where's your next bit of gear - how long is this runner going to be 'in play' as your primary protection?  Is that acceptable in the face of the apparent difficulties ahead?  How soon can you/must you get another piece of gear?  Is that acceptable - do you need to climb up for a bit of a look before you decide?

Climb assertively and positively, but not 'blindly'.  Do not assume that you can fall with impunity - all you have done is mitigate the risk - you have not eliminated it.  Any decision about how safe it is to fall is at best an estimate of the likely outcome - there are many variables.  For me, falling off is something that mostly happens when all other options have failed.  I'll take an 'ease yourself onto the runner' instead of a flyer every time given a choice.  After that first fall, I can add some empirical evidence to the risk assessment and will fall more readily on that runner.  If you do fall or sit on a runner - have a good look at where the ropes go - I bet the ropes go in directions you had not envisaged - consider that in the context of 'how long will a runner be in play'.

Take faith in your physical ability to climb something

I tend towards the 'not falling' mentality - but my sport grade (when I will fall happily) is about the same as my non-sport grade.   Everyone looks when they hear that whooshing jangle of a falling climber - not so when a sport climber falls.  There's a reason for that.

 tehmarks 15 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

I think almost everything has already been said, but one tip I'd add that's certainly helped me is to try to not put yourself in a position where there's only one bit of gear between you and the deck, particularly at the crux. On grit this often means doubing up on gear at the crux, or even building a small nest if it's not confidence-inspiring. It's not just prudence - it helps mentally when you're mid-crux and your mind wanders into negative territory. It's much easier to commit when there's not just one small cam between you and a serious injury, no matter how bomber that small cam is.

(But don't place all the gear you'll need to protect the rest of the route!)

Post edited at 12:26
 C Witter 15 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

The greatest incentive to trust your gear is knowing you'll never do the routes you want to, until you trust your gear. But, just take things at your own pace and don't pressure it.

Also, every route is different, and trusting a single no.2 in a worn placement to catch a whipper is rightly going to be harder than climbing on when you know you've got a nest of solid gear between you and the ground - because it's objectively more risky.

Lots of people rush on when they're not really solid on their gear. If you're not sure, then get sure - and don't start pushing yourself until you are. Why are you unsure? Try to isolate things you feel you need to improve - e.g. decisions you're making; quality of placements; cams or nuts; extending gear properly, etc. Don't dismiss the fear - examine it.

Spend some time revisiting what good placements are. Bounce-test some gear placements at the bottom of a crag, note how bloody bomber even less than ideal placements can be. Put some focus into making good placements each time, with efficiency, on ground where you're comfortable. Even if outings are few and far between, don't view it as a waste of time to focus on good gear, because it's the foundation on which you build everything else.

And then get on some choice HVS and E1 climbs with lots of gear and a really solid belayer!

The way I see it, even when you think you've solved your head game, it'll creep up again and bite you in the ass. It never really seems completely solved. So, don't beat yourself up.

I took a couple of falls onto a pink tricam (!?!) yesterday. I was scared silly, but I knew I had two good pieces between me and the ground and I managed to put myself in the position where falling was a possibility. It was actually really good to get a couple of falls in the bank. Since I yelled "I'm coming off!!! TAAAAAKE! ARGHGHHW!" to my belayer, before my fingers finally uncurled, I barely fell 2 metres - and most of that was rope stretch. It was quite funny actually! I hardly registered the second time as a fall. ...But, I still woke up in the middle of the night to find it replaying in my mind!

 

 PaulJepson 15 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

It's not really on to go practice lobbing on gear at a half-decent crag but if there is a sport quarry near by then you can go up, clipping bolts as backup, and placing gear, then this could be a good method. Give your gear a rating out of 10 and then fall on it. If it rips, the bolt will hold - no worries. I've never done myself but know some people who have and they were shocked by what held them (things they were giving 2/10). Once you've seen what is capable of holding a fall, you'll happily move above that 'bomber' placement. 

If there isn't any bolted stuff you can get to, you can also replicate the above by tying alpine butterflys at intervals on a static rope. Clip draws into the static rope and clip into them like bolts on your way up. 

 193 18 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Get used to not falling off , for a good many climbers today bolts and gear are not a safety net but a means of progress , not in the old manner , ie direct aid , but for resting , practicing moves . the thing this instills is an expectation and acceptance of that .

Try just onsighting things for a while and think of bolt as being there as the safety net , if you happen to fall and want to finish the climb lower strait to the ground and , when ready , go again . it will mean dropping your grade for a while , and as you are trying to build confidence and change mindset , stick to bolts before moving to gear routes , then get on rock that is of a similar nature to that you are used to , 

Double ropes are the thing to use , and realising that most of the time there is more than a single piece of gear available , ( lace it up ) Lok for the words , well protected 

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 CurlyStevo 18 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Personally for me one of the key skills in trad is knowing how far you can push it without falling off and judging what the consequences of a fall are likely to be.  You can always make a small cluster of gear if the moves look hard but the fall zone is good. With practice you will get much better at on sighting which is another key skill (unlike sport).

Post edited at 16:32
 springfall2008 18 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

On the other hand, I do find the freedom to throw in another piece of gear when I’m feeling wobbly very reassuring. For that reason if you pick Trad routes which have plenty of gear opportunities it should be more relaxing. I’ve certainly climbed the odd HS with limited gear and have been loads more stressed than an HVS with bomber gear all the way.


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