UKH

How small do climbing shoes need to be for maximum performance compared to street shoe?

I know there will be variations depending on the particular shoe, how much they stretch and which particular holds you are trying to use as part of particular moves. But even so is there a broafdrule of thumb with inevitable exceptions? Is the downsizing I often see - two, three or even four half-sizes below street shoe size - really delivering better performance? Might it be delivering worse (e.g. loss of sensitivity as toes go numb)?

Personally I wear Scarpa VCRs at the same as my street shoe size and I get no sense that wearing smaller would improve performance. I am not claiming this should be true for everyone

In reply to ericinbristol:

There are too many factors to generalise, but

- the softer the shoe

- the harder the route

- the more 'climbing shoe shaped' your foot

are all factors that would lead to preferring a smaller size. How many sizes below street shoe size will vary a lot between manufacturers so is impossible to say in general. For example, I use a variety of different model Boreal shoes and mine range from 3 half-sizes under up to 1 half-size under depending on model and intended usage.

In reply to ericinbristol:

For me, small enough that there isn't any dead space around the toes (i.e., my toes touch the end) but not so small that they hurt.

Exactly how small this is depends on the model.  Usually half to one size smaller than my feet measure, which is 1-2 sizes smaller than the street shoes I actually wear (size 3 shoes are easier to buy than 2.5!).

In reply to ericinbristol:

I always reckon they should be fitted exactly over the length of the shoe with a little tension when new streching to just the same length as the foot over time.

Whether they fell tight elsewhere depends on whether you bought shoes that fit your feet or not.

Having said that my climbing is definitely on the bumbly end of the spectrum!

In reply to ericinbristol:

There's a clear trade-off between performance and comfort, and if your shoes are too uncomfortable this may cancel out any technical improvement.  You have to decide at what point you see actual performance benefits.  I suspect the level at which tight high-performance shoes actually make a real difference is fairly high - routes up to VS (and probably higher) were once habitually climbed in Vibrams, and harder routes well into the E grades were climbed in shoes which were shockingly poor by modern standards.  I suspect that most climbers would see more performance gains from improving their footwork and developing their head game than from squeezing their feet into too-tight shoes.

In reply to ericinbristol:

With Scarpa it's generally not much. With the Vapor for example, 0.5 sizes down is usually a performance fit. With Sportiva, I need to go 2.5-3 sizes down for the same good fit. 

In reply to ericinbristol:

Every time I have changed the type/brand of shoe I use, I have increased teh size. I now where the largest shoes I ever have and climb better than I ever have. 

My advice to starters is get the stiffest soles you can in the most comfortable shoes you can. 

Tee tiny shoe argument is a fallacy

In reply to ericinbristol:

I've always liked smaller shoes. Tend to wear 5.10 Velcro for most routes. Think they're about a size and a half below street size.

Anything bigger and the roll can unnerve me. 

In reply to ericinbristol:

So many variables.  My normal shoe size is 8 or 8.5 (my feet are about half a size different).  My Sportiva Solutions are a 5.5 and my 5.10 Anasazi velcros (the brown ones) are a 6.5.  When I first buy them they take a bit of wearing in - get the new ones before the old ones are totally trashed.  I can wear the anasazis on long all day routes if I slip the heels out at the end of each pitch.  I undo the solutions as I'm lowering off!

In reply to 98%monkey:

Its not.

Depends what you want to climb.  You wont feel much with really stiff soles but its good for anyone who is new to rock boots and needs the support.  Stiff is good for tiny edges on slabs but not for smeary stuff.

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

Probably is for beginners and intermediates (up to E1 / 6B) I know the OP isn't, but the more you climb the better you'll be.

Wearing "small" shoes will limit you climbing time and therefore, you'll do less climbing.

I wear one size bigger than my street shoes, I can wear my boots all day and regularly do 3-4 hours in doors.

I climb for fun though, so I don't have the pressure of chasing grades, I don't use chalk for the same reason, I don't like the feel of it, so I don't use it. Both might help me climb harder, but for what purpose?

I'd rather be climbing than hurting my feet.

My first pair were the same size as my street shoes, my toe was bent and my foot arched, this was on advice from the bloke in the shop, I soon realised that if I wanted to progress I needed to be comfortable , and got ride of them.

In reply to ericinbristol: The problem is this is very much down to the shape of your feet and the type of toes you have, and the brand/model of shoes that fits you well..... but people tend to talk about what works for them as gospel.

In reply to ericinbristol:

Isn't the "smaller is better" thing just a throw back from when shoes weren't that good and you had to have them tight so they fit?

Now that shoes are made from 100 different bits and (should) follow the shape of your foot, you should be able to find a shoe that fits without it being tight. 

In reply to ericinbristol:

They have to be big enough to wear a pair of red woolly socks in.

In reply to ericinbristol:

My two cents:

Pain = Bad
Discomfort = Can be ok

Figuring out where you belong on the discomfort scale is entirely personal.
Trial and error is the only real way to find out in my opinion.

In reply to ericinbristol:

You might gain a half, a quarter of a grade by squeezing your feet into something with a more precise feel.

But you might gain hours of comfortable climbing every day out in the hills and years without toes or bunion problems if you don't force your feet into ill fitting too small shoes. 

Just because some guru squeezes their feet into a banana shaped shoe(they probably got for free) 1 full size smaller than normal to climb a 10min pitch on grit, it doesn't mean you should do the same on your multipitch HVS etc.. 

In reply to ericinbristol:

I'm a 13 in normal shoes and my tight rock boots are 13 1/2 (Boreal) and my comfy boots are 14 (5.10) and I wear them with socks. I used to use really tight boots which I'm sure caused a foot issue which required surgery. These days I choose which boots I wear depending on the route and I actually think technique is way more important - Leo Houlding onsighted master's wall in a pair of oversized boots!

In reply to ericinbristol:

All depends really.

I may have fallen foul of the small shoe argument, but i cant trust my feet when bouldering without tight shoes.

My La Sportiva approach shoes are 46.5, which are pretty tight to be fair, good for scrambling in and my skwamas are a 43 and 42.5, i don't find this painful, i do however find them precise.

I have some size 46 scarpa vapour lace for all day stuff and some 47 meindl walking boots for work.

In reply to ericinbristol:

Doubtless an old fashioned view but I would say get shoes that are comfortable and learn to climb in them - folks were climbing E5 and harder before sticky rubber, aggressive lasts and super-tight shoes.

Chris

In reply to ericinbristol:

Different (age) shoes for different things work best. On 50m trad pitch on a baking hot day, small shoes are not going to help one bit. Bouldering at your limit on steep limestone with microscopic foot edges in the freezing cold is going to require a rather different pair of shoes. As is a hard grit slab. 

Build up a (potentially smelly) cupboard/garage full and pick out the right tool for the job in hand.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Then, having served the apprenticeship and reached those lofty grades, drop down a size and feel the footholds get bigger

In reply to john arran:

My thoughts exactly 😀

Chris

In reply to ericinbristol:

One per toe.

In reply to ericinbristol:

Rock & Run have a very sensible guide here, including allowance for stretch:

https://rockrun.com/blogs/the-flash-rock-run-blog/rock-shoe-sizing-guide

Wide variation between manufacturers

As for whether it makes any difference - London Wall & Right Wall have both been climbed in trainers. Shoe tightness can only be a marginal gain if you're already confident in your usual pair. 

In reply to ericinbristol:

I made an interesting observation on the tight shoe question last year. 

In recent years, I have been recording in detail my training and climbing. One particular week, I did 2 very similar training sessions; same number of routes, same max, min and mean grade. The only variable was the shoes, same make model and size but the pair used in the second session were brand new.

I was noticeably more pumped following training in the new shoes. I attribute this to the new shoes, that I was not taking sufficient weight on my feet due to new shoe discomfort. Once the shoes were run in it was back to normal. 

The difference was quite noticeable, pulling harder to avoid hurting my feet. 

Small sample size but veering from anecdote towards data point. 

In reply to ericinbristol:

I just want them to still work when they have stretched a bit so usually means starting fairly small. Baggy shoes are grim. That said, I wear sportiva and their sizes are small anyway. I wear size 7 street shoes and 6.5 climbing shoes. Or even 7s if they are for trad. They are much smaller than my street shoes tho. 

In reply to ericinbristol:

But buying shoes is risky. Lots of money and they may stretch then they are useless. They all do to some extent. So I go small. Current shoes were bought in a deal. Could only get them on using a plastic bag and pulling hard. Then could only sit with them on for 10 minutes or so. Now they are perfect but wouldn't wear them for trad. 

In reply to snoop6060:

La Sportiva are notorious for running large, I'm 3-4 sizes down in all of my sportiva shoes!

Unless its just the particular models i use.

In reply to GoneFishing111:

Most brands used to be like that but I think many have improved. My personal record was wearing a pair of prototype Boreals seven half-sizes below street shoe size, but not without extreme discomfort and only because it was the only way I could do the moves of a particularly hard first ascent!

In reply to GoneFishing111:

I have often wondered if oversizing is a marketing strategy. Buy Sportivo shoes and buy the bragging rights to wearing shoes 4 sizes too small. 

In reply to ericinbristol:

I wear Scarpa Instincts in 5.5 and I’m a Street 7.5. Same for recently switched to Tenaya Oasi. It makes a massive difference to have the shoe totally snug and precise. 

In stiffer but less downturned shoes I only need to go down to a 6.5 (eg the wonderful, unsurpassable Tenaya Masai) and again the difference is real. Being able to feel holds precisely through the rubber with no rolling and having total faith in where you are standing is the difference between being able to climb some routes and not. 

In reply to Presley Whippet:

John Arran - i agree 5.10 tend to run more true to size, as do scarpa.

Whippet - maybe, im yet to get an explanation. Ive naff all else to brag about....

In reply to ericinbristol:

If you get them really, really small, small footholds become enormous

In reply to ericinbristol:

There is no universal guide to shoe fitting. Every brand is different, even different models under the same brand are different. Then you have different feet shapes, some people get a good fit in some shoes where as others with the same size feet would need to go a size up etc.

But if you're talking about a specific shoe on your particular foot and how tight to have it then it depends on a range of factors. How much overall performance do you need from it? Will you need edging or smearing? And how long do you need to keep them on for?

Hardcore bouldering shoe for your super hard project? Go as tight as you can function in. Need an all day tradding shoe? Keep it pretty comfortable. Need an all-round shoe? I'd say something you can wear with relative comfort for about 2 hours once worn in. 

For me, I aim for somewhere between all round and high performance level of comfort. Because I need to climb hard stuff with poor holds for feet but realistically can't be putting on and taking off a painful pair of shoes for every for every go on my project because it's faff, even if there might be a marginal gain to be had.

​

In reply to GoneFishing111:

I do have wide feet but 4 sizes down? That cannot be correct. That would have me wearing a size 3. And someone with size 10 feet wearing my solutions that are crazy tight on me. No way someone with size 10 feet could even get their toes in them let alone their whole foot. 

In reply to snoop6060:

Perhaps not that far fetched if it's 3-4 Euro sizes, and the person has big feet, so presumably it's less of a proportional decrease.  I am street size EU46 (UK 11) and wear Sportiva slippers (Futuras, Pythons) at EU42.5 (UK 8.5) - uncomfortable at first but feel incredibly precise after stretching.  I admit that these days I only wear them for short-lived goes on bouldering projects (although, I used to wear them for routes).  For most of my climbing I wear Sportiva EU43 lace-ups / velcros (and recently an old pair of 5.10 Dragons in EU46, with the laces cranked tight have been getting a lot of use).

In reply to snoop6060:

I just lost a reply, but basically what the guy above me said!

Im anywhere from a size 10 to a 12 in street shoe, so using our sizing system it could be that ive only sized down one size in sportivas?

The rock run guide i think is pretty accurate.

In reply to ericinbristol:

The rock run guide is only accurate if you have that shape foot. Most climbing shoes are (roughly) the shape of a right angle triangle, my foot looks like a rectangle, to get the big toe anything close to snug i have to cripple my smaller toes.

Its a bit like the Alpine climbing shoe calculator (https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/climbing-shoe-size-calculator) where they give you 4 different foot shapes but only tell you what they recommend for 3 of the. 

In reply to thepodge:

I’m 11.5 street size and my Sportivas range from 9.5 (Solution / Miura XX) to 10.5 (Katanas for trad). However, i forgot my shoes on a trip to the wall recently and ended up borrowing a fairly well-worn pair of size 8 Skwamas. They felt amazing, especially on tiny footholds on the 45 board. Not entirely sure I could deal with the breaking in pain though...

In reply to ericinbristol:

Size 10.   If Boreal Jokers, wear sock on right foot only as that's yer small foot. If Bandits, no space for socks, climb quicker then take em off.

definitive answer. Next thread. (gets coat)

In reply to GoneFishing111:

Do you have narrow feet? As an example, a friend has narrow feet wearing a 43 street yet will go down to 39.5 for redpoint burns in Solutions. I have wide feet, wear a 42 street yet can only fit in a 41.5 Solution, however for me they are perfect, no movement or roll. I wear a new pair indoors for a year then get them resoled once they wear a little to use as next years outdoor shoe. All the benefits of a new shoe with exceptional comfort in an aggressive shoe! I've worn them for a week on grit and 6 weeks in Font this year, often for much of the day. If you have wide feet, I'll be amazed, impressed even

In reply to krikoman:

If you're indoor for 3 to 4 hours at a time then, unless you've absolutely no bodily fluids at all, please please use chalk! Even if you don't gain benefit from it then others will, there's nothing worse than going for a move and sliding off a greased up hold.

(of course you can go the other way and way over-chalk, but SOME is pretty much necessary, especially at this time of year. Then again I use it as a nervous crutch, which is a habit I'm trying to break)

In reply to Fishmate:

Ive no idea, about average id say.

Im not sure what size my feet actually are, a guy in an outdoor shop in Keswick once measured my feet at 13.5! There is absolutely no way that can be correct. Ive mostly worn size 11 shoes/boots for about 15 years.

He brought out some boots which he thought where the correct size for me, they felt laughably big, but he was resolute in that they fit! They didn't, there was an inch behind my heel. Maybe i just like tight shoes in general? I can't stand any looseness in a shoe at all.

I do need to use a bag on my heel to get my feet in a new pair of skwamas, after a week or so i can keep them on for most of a session.

In reply to GoneFishing111:

My street size is 42. I have worn Sportiva 39.5 Futuras. I now wear 42 Genius. no difference in performance just in comfort. I climb at E2 on Grit and Lime. I used to climb harder in my youth in tighter shoes, now comfort is the name of the game. Small tight shoes that can only be worn for a short time are not necessary, good footwork is more important.

In reply to Kieran_John:

Thank you, but no.

I'll check my body fluids for you, do you have a dip stick?

A simple wipe on my shorts or tee shirt is enough, I don't see why I should use chalk because you want me to And there's  more the a bit of sweat on the walls I go to, skin and blood to name two.

What do you do when you're outside and there's bird shit, and no doubt sheep shit, in a number of places?

Man up, and go the chalk-less route, you know you want to.

We once had a slab at one of the walls we went to, one of our "tests" was see how high up you could get without using your hands. The number of people who still chalked up, not only before stating but while they were doing it, was amazing.

In reply to Mr Moac:

I agree, on the footwork but not on the shoes, i prefer tight shoes, i feel i climb better in them.

Each to their own.